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Do you think Vengeance destroys the uniqueness of ESO PvP?
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spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Other (Comment below)spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »ShutUpitsRed wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »ShutUpitsRed wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »ShutUpitsRed wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »ShutUpitsRed wrote: »Not a single "No" comment answers the actual question in the poll. Fascinating.robwolf666 wrote: »No... I think PvP as it is now locks out people who don't understand builds and how to make them effective, so they get one-hit-killed whenever they try to go in to Cyrodiil/IC. Vengeance sounds like it evens the playing field for PvP.
Straight from the horse's mouth lol. PvP as it is now locks out people who don't know how to play the game and can't be bothered to learn, and so it's bad. It's frustrating as all get out that PvP is treated the way it is by the devs, but comments like this just make me so sad. Why is it ok for PvE to have standards and an actual skill/effort curve and an endgame, but PvP is expected to cater to the lowest common denominator?
PvP doesn't have a normal mode and competitions are supposed to be fair. PvP is not supposed to be a situation where the outcome was already determined at login regardless of the skill of the players. PvP should never have been allowed to be that imbalanced for so long and it's a big reason that it's in such bad shape.
If Vengeance doesn't replace the regular PvP but instead functions as a "PvP normal mode," while CP Cyrodiil is allowed to remain as is in a sorry of "PvP vet mode," then that would probably be good a thing although it may be too late and too poorly communicated to work out.
Because then there would be an actual curve, like in PvP, instead of a situation where vet players are allowed to completely kill the game mode for new and casual players.
PvP, as it is, is already fair. We're all playing the same game. You get out what you put in, and putting together sets/builds/etc is putting in the work. It's a part of the PvP and the game overall. The comparison to "normal mode" is invalid, as in PvP you're playing against human beings, not AI. A Vengeance meta WILL emerge, and it will also feel unfair to those who don't put in the time and effort to find and implement it.
PvP is endgame content. Prepare accordingly.
No. It's not already fair. The gap between the best builds and the worst are the most astronomical that I have seen of any game. Balance isn't everyone can use the overpowered thing. ESO is barely talked about but one of the most widely cited talking points is the absurdity of the balance in PvP.
Is endgame PvE scoring unfair because you have to use certain builds/skills to hit the highest numbers? I'm not talking about balance, I'm talking about fairness. We're all playing the same game.
Fairness is all competitors having a chance to win. It's not a handful of builds being an automatic win. You can't talk about balance as separate from fairness. You can't pit the Los Angeles Lakers against the LA Youth Recreational League, allow the Lakers to wear basketball equipment while the Youth League has to wear snowsuits and then claim the match was fair because we're all using the same baseketball and hoop.
There always needed to either be a separate game mode or more parity between the builds.
All competitors do have a chance to win, if they build and practice for it. Nobody is forcing anyone to use subpar builds or tactics. Nerfing yourself and then complaining you lose is the opposite of fair. If you go to try to play basketball in a snowsuit, you deserve to lose lol, duh?
You didn't answer my question.
Again, "everyone can use the overpowered thing," is not balance. There shouldn't be builds that are so subpar that you automatically lose because you used them. This game is widely mocked for its pvp balance. It's a number one factor in why people don't join that do play this game. And it's one of the biggest cons that people explain when they tell people not to play this game. This game has a bad reputation when it comes to PvP.
This is literally what I’ve been saying, but the difference in our stances is that I don’t think it’s acceptable for ZOS to pitch Vengeance as a performance activity rather than what it is. Which is a way to not have to balance the game. It’s not right. They have pushed update after update that has destroyed balance, and they refuse to deal with those mistakes.
There can be more than one reason for a thing. ZOS said that both the improved performance and the positive feedback are what drove them to make it a permanent mode. We know that a lot of that positive feedback was from PvE players and casuals who enjoyed that Vengeance offered them an even playing field build wise. It also had better performance than traditional Cyrodiil. Performance has been complained about for years. They've done test after test for years. None of it worked. It doesn't surprise me when they saw the test showed the abilities were the problem that they decided to throw in the towel.
I agree with you about the updates. I don't personally think PvP has ever been balanced as well as it should have been.
Well now that they’re redoing classes we’ll see if that makes its way into PvP/Greyhost, which if so that would be at least working on balancing PvP. Or, they just roll these out alongside Vengeance as “tests” and use the positive feedback/exclusive participation as fuel to delete our game.
The class refreshes will help but I honestly think class balance was the least of Cyrodiil's balance issues. The biggest issue is ball groups and OP sets. I certainly hope that the class refreshes help with PvP balance though and that they continue to address balance in Grey Host. I also hope they don't try to replace Grey Host with Vengeance. I think the only way that Vengeance can have a positive outcome is if they leave it as effectively a PvP normal mode equivalent. And they continue to have Grey Host.
I think only having vengeance would kill PvP.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 2, 2025 8:15PM0 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoNot at all. I think as it stands today there are many players locked out of participating in PvP due to power consolidations behind subclassing, emp and ball groups.
Vengeance is not well received by some because they don't like change but what they don't understand is Vengeance is a meaningful step forward out of this mess though who's to say what the end result will look like.Edited by Vulkunne on December 2, 2025 9:33PMAll I'm doing is kneading the dough. I don't need your help right now. -Infamous Khajiti Chef2 -
SneaK✭✭✭✭✭
✭YesNot at all. I think as it stands today there are many players locked out of participating in PvP due to power consolidations behind subclassing, emp and ball groups.
Vengeance is not well received by some because they don't like change but what they don't understand is Vengeance is a meaningful step forward out of this mess though who's to say what the end result will look like.
I personally don’t like Vengeance because it limits my creativity and drastically decreases my reasons to play the game outside of PvP. I’m just as fed up with imbalance and power gaps as the rest."IMO"Aldmeri Dominion1 Nightblade - 1 Templar - 7 Hybrid Mutt Abominations1 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoNot at all. I think as it stands today there are many players locked out of participating in PvP due to power consolidations behind subclassing, emp and ball groups.
Vengeance is not well received by some because they don't like change but what they don't understand is Vengeance is a meaningful step forward out of this mess though who's to say what the end result will look like.
I personally don’t like Vengeance because it limits my creativity and drastically decreases my reasons to play the game outside of PvP. I’m just as fed up with imbalance and power gaps as the rest.
The whole thing could just be a big misunderstanding. ZOS probably just saw how quickly virtually the entire playerbase has acquired the Assassin Skill Line and assumed they wanted Vengeance. I think it's great that so much of the player base no longer has bad feelings towards unlawful quests, npcs and in their builds have seemingly embraced dark and violent mechanisms for rapid regime change, no other completely unrelated reason. You could almost say it happened organically.Edited by Vulkunne on December 2, 2025 11:54PMAll I'm doing is kneading the dough. I don't need your help right now. -Infamous Khajiti Chef0 -
SneaK✭✭✭✭✭
✭YesNot at all. I think as it stands today there are many players locked out of participating in PvP due to power consolidations behind subclassing, emp and ball groups.
Vengeance is not well received by some because they don't like change but what they don't understand is Vengeance is a meaningful step forward out of this mess though who's to say what the end result will look like.
I personally don’t like Vengeance because it limits my creativity and drastically decreases my reasons to play the game outside of PvP. I’m just as fed up with imbalance and power gaps as the rest.
The whole thing could just be a big misunderstanding. I mean, ZOS probably just saw how quickly everyone acquired the Assassin Skill Line and assumed they wanted Vengeance. I think it's great that so much of the player base no longer has bad feelings towards unlaw quests, npcs and have embraced dark and violent mechanisms for rapid regime change; for no other completely unrelated reason(s). You could almost say it happened organically.
This went over my head ngl"IMO"Aldmeri Dominion1 Nightblade - 1 Templar - 7 Hybrid Mutt Abominations0 -
The_Meathead✭✭✭✭✭YesNot at all. I think as it stands today there are many players locked out of participating in PvP due to power consolidations behind subclassing, emp and ball groups.
Vengeance is not well received by some because they don't like change but what they don't understand is Vengeance is a meaningful step forward out of this mess though who's to say what the end result will look like.
I personally don’t like Vengeance because it limits my creativity and drastically decreases my reasons to play the game outside of PvP. I’m just as fed up with imbalance and power gaps as the rest.
^This.
I have no interest in giving up my builds and sets for templates, dropping personalized stats for uniform metrics, or losing the element of theory crafting and effort-earned gearing that makes my character unique and not Templar #392001 or Dragonknight # 500132.
ShutUpIt'sRed said it phenomenally well and I won't try to echo how much of their statement mirrors my own feelings, but our characters are built, shaped, and practiced for PvP and it's what drives us to participate not only in PvP but most assuredly in the rest of the game, beyond. The day that RPG element is removed is the day I leave ESO, and Vengeance is a step in that direction.
They've fallen for the false promise of voices saying, "Now I might even PvP!" and it's going to end how it did in every game I've seen the same phrase uttered; driving away their diehard PVP playerbase while failing to rope in the people who have never held an interest in PvP and still won't, even when it caters to a lower standard of entry/effort.
It's fool's gold that they're chasing, when retuning current Cyrodiil to diminish the absurdity of heal/shield stacking and Ballgroup mechanics, trimming a small handful of problematic outliers like RoA and Warden Charm, and perhaps looking into certain AddOns for how they affect performance would have been a path to true improvement of what's already good and already has players heavily invested. Cyrodiil performance isn't even bad these days, until double Ball Groups show up on top of each other - so why not start there? Why reinvent the wheel and run off your diehards?
I feel like my time here may be getting short, and it's a shame because I truly love ESO.3 -
SaffronCitrusflower✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭YesVengeance is an abomination that I will never play again. I was a fool to ever believe ZOS was using vengeance as a test bed to gather information to improve live Cyrodiil like they claimed was their purpose from the beginning.
Vengeance is nothing like PvP.2 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoNot at all. I think as it stands today there are many players locked out of participating in PvP due to power consolidations behind subclassing, emp and ball groups.
Vengeance is not well received by some because they don't like change but what they don't understand is Vengeance is a meaningful step forward out of this mess though who's to say what the end result will look like.
I personally don’t like Vengeance because it limits my creativity and drastically decreases my reasons to play the game outside of PvP. I’m just as fed up with imbalance and power gaps as the rest.
The whole thing could just be a big misunderstanding. I mean, ZOS probably just saw how quickly everyone acquired the Assassin Skill Line and assumed they wanted Vengeance. I think it's great that so much of the player base no longer has bad feelings towards unlaw quests, npcs and have embraced dark and violent mechanisms for rapid regime change; for no other completely unrelated reason(s). You could almost say it happened organically.
This went over my head ngl
You think so? I dunno I thought it was rather creative and interesting with a hint of sarcasm, especially when weighed in with everything else. See, I do have a theory. I think alot of this Vengeance back and forth is about fairness. And Cyrodiil as it is, is emptying.. even uh Blackreach right? Is emptying out. The way things are going is not working.
This is a fact. Until we see how things pan out with Vengeance, the burden of proof for how bad things is are exists with Cyrodiil in its current form and the factors holding people back, such as ball groups, emps and subclassing.Edited by Vulkunne on December 2, 2025 10:41PMAll I'm doing is kneading the dough. I don't need your help right now. -Infamous Khajiti Chef0 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoSaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Vengeance is an abomination that I will never play again. I was a fool to ever believe ZOS was using vengeance as a test bed to gather information to improve live Cyrodiil like they claimed was their purpose from the beginning.
Vengeance is nothing like PvP.
There seldom if ever are large scale fights or battle lines in Cyrodiil now. Its just one ball group, one emp (sometimes w/ a bomber mixed in) winning and everyone else dying. That's it.Edited by Vulkunne on December 2, 2025 10:49PMAll I'm doing is kneading the dough. I don't need your help right now. -Infamous Khajiti Chef1 -
SaffronCitrusflower✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭YesSaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Vengeance is an abomination that I will never play again. I was a fool to ever believe ZOS was using vengeance as a test bed to gather information to improve live Cyrodiil like they claimed was their purpose from the beginning.
Vengeance is nothing like PvP.
There seldom if ever are large scale fights or battle lines in Cyrodiil now. Its just one ball group, one emp, sometimes a bomber mixed winning and everyone else dying. That's it.
No. I play hours in Grey Host every day solo and in a non comped group. It's not just ball groups. Less than 10% of players are in a comped group at any given time.3 -
DoofusMax✭✭✭✭NoNo. Until such a time as there is a permanent Vengeance or Vengeance-like campaign, it's nothing more than a short interruption of the normal PvP campaigns. If it were to become a permanent campaign ruleset, then it's the same as the other campaign rulesets (alliance-locked or not, CP/No-CP, or 7/30 days) and you pick the ruleset you like playing under. In this respect, the upcoming Vengeance is little different from any other event, just without tickets or reward boxes. Participate if you wish or don't if you don't.
At least for the upcoming Vengeance, those who don't may play Gray Host for at least part of the time, which kinda bites for those of us who have different home campaigns, but I'll get over it (getting over it for others is up to them). It's a game, fer cryin' out loud, and I have a very difficult time justifying being outraged over something as piddly as this. If I felt it were sufficiently egregious to warrant that level of outrage, then I've got a few hundred other games in my library and scads more which are practically begging for access to both my wallet and my spare time.I'm fresh out of outrage, but I could muster up some amused annoyance if required.1 -
SneaK✭✭✭✭✭
✭YesNot at all. I think as it stands today there are many players locked out of participating in PvP due to power consolidations behind subclassing, emp and ball groups.
Vengeance is not well received by some because they don't like change but what they don't understand is Vengeance is a meaningful step forward out of this mess though who's to say what the end result will look like.
I personally don’t like Vengeance because it limits my creativity and drastically decreases my reasons to play the game outside of PvP. I’m just as fed up with imbalance and power gaps as the rest.
The whole thing could just be a big misunderstanding. I mean, ZOS probably just saw how quickly everyone acquired the Assassin Skill Line and assumed they wanted Vengeance. I think it's great that so much of the player base no longer has bad feelings towards unlaw quests, npcs and have embraced dark and violent mechanisms for rapid regime change; for no other completely unrelated reason(s). You could almost say it happened organically.
This went over my head ngl
You think so? I dunno I thought it was rather creative and interesting with a hint of sarcasm, especially when weighed in with everything else. See, I do have a theory. I think alot of this Vengeance back and forth is about fairness. And Cyrodiil as it is, is emptying.. even uh Blackreach right? Is emptying out. The way things are going is not working.
This is a fact. Until we see how things pan out with Vengeance, the burden of proof for how bad things is are exists with Cyrodiil in its current form and the factors holding people back, such as ball groups, emps and subclassing.
We have a common enemy, you call it fairness, I call it balance. Players are not to blame for either, and taking away things that didn’t create the imbalance/fairness from the players is not the correct decision."IMO"Aldmeri Dominion1 Nightblade - 1 Templar - 7 Hybrid Mutt Abominations0 -
Lord_Hev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NoThe_Meathead wrote: »Not at all. I think as it stands today there are many players locked out of participating in PvP due to power consolidations behind subclassing, emp and ball groups.
Vengeance is not well received by some because they don't like change but what they don't understand is Vengeance is a meaningful step forward out of this mess though who's to say what the end result will look like.
I personally don’t like Vengeance because it limits my creativity and drastically decreases my reasons to play the game outside of PvP. I’m just as fed up with imbalance and power gaps as the rest.
^This.
I have no interest in giving up my builds and sets for templates, dropping personalized stats for uniform metrics, or losing the element of theory crafting and effort-earned gearing that makes my character unique and not Templar #392001 or Dragonknight # 500132.
ShutUpIt'sRed said it phenomenally well and I won't try to echo how much of their statement mirrors my own feelings, but our characters are built, shaped, and practiced for PvP and it's what drives us to participate not only in PvP but most assuredly in the rest of the game, beyond. The day that RPG element is removed is the day I leave ESO, and Vengeance is a step in that direction.
They've fallen for the false promise of voices saying, "Now I might even PvP!" and it's going to end how it did in every game I've seen the same phrase uttered; driving away their diehard PVP playerbase while failing to rope in the people who have never held an interest in PvP and still won't, even when it caters to a lower standard of entry/effort.
It's fool's gold that they're chasing, when retuning current Cyrodiil to diminish the absurdity of heal/shield stacking and Ballgroup mechanics, trimming a small handful of problematic outliers like RoA and Warden Charm, and perhaps looking into certain AddOns for how they affect performance would have been a path to true improvement of what's already good and already has players heavily invested. Cyrodiil performance isn't even bad these days, until double Ball Groups show up on top of each other - so why not start there? Why reinvent the wheel and run off your diehards?
I feel like my time here may be getting short, and it's a shame because I truly love ESO.
See, it's not that I don't agree with you. I actually 100% agree with the sentiment on a foundational level. But I do not agree because "personalized builds" are actually being talked about here?? I'd rather fight Templar #392001 instead of Assassination/StormCalling/AnimalCompanions Wretched-Vitality/Whatever clone +1112 along with the occasional bomb-bot #01010101 or the super unique and personalized RoA uniformed turn-and-burn replica clones #22645 + #22646! Which come in very unique fruity flavors of different subclass variants that operate -identically- the same... Woah! Just with a fruity-tang of a twist for that same refreshing taste!!0 -
SneaK✭✭✭✭✭
✭YesThe_Meathead wrote: »Not at all. I think as it stands today there are many players locked out of participating in PvP due to power consolidations behind subclassing, emp and ball groups.
Vengeance is not well received by some because they don't like change but what they don't understand is Vengeance is a meaningful step forward out of this mess though who's to say what the end result will look like.
I personally don’t like Vengeance because it limits my creativity and drastically decreases my reasons to play the game outside of PvP. I’m just as fed up with imbalance and power gaps as the rest.
^This.
I have no interest in giving up my builds and sets for templates, dropping personalized stats for uniform metrics, or losing the element of theory crafting and effort-earned gearing that makes my character unique and not Templar #392001 or Dragonknight # 500132.
ShutUpIt'sRed said it phenomenally well and I won't try to echo how much of their statement mirrors my own feelings, but our characters are built, shaped, and practiced for PvP and it's what drives us to participate not only in PvP but most assuredly in the rest of the game, beyond. The day that RPG element is removed is the day I leave ESO, and Vengeance is a step in that direction.
They've fallen for the false promise of voices saying, "Now I might even PvP!" and it's going to end how it did in every game I've seen the same phrase uttered; driving away their diehard PVP playerbase while failing to rope in the people who have never held an interest in PvP and still won't, even when it caters to a lower standard of entry/effort.
It's fool's gold that they're chasing, when retuning current Cyrodiil to diminish the absurdity of heal/shield stacking and Ballgroup mechanics, trimming a small handful of problematic outliers like RoA and Warden Charm, and perhaps looking into certain AddOns for how they affect performance would have been a path to true improvement of what's already good and already has players heavily invested. Cyrodiil performance isn't even bad these days, until double Ball Groups show up on top of each other - so why not start there? Why reinvent the wheel and run off your diehards?
I feel like my time here may be getting short, and it's a shame because I truly love ESO.
See, it's not that I don't agree with you. I actually 100% agree with the sentiment on a foundational level. But I do not agree because "personalized builds" are actually being talked about here?? I'd rather fight Templar #392001 instead of Assassination/StormCalling/AnimalCompanions Wretched-Vitality/Whatever clone +1112 along with the occasional bomb-bot #01010101 or the super unique and personalized RoA uniformed turn-and-burn replica clones #22645 + #22646! Which come in very unique fruity flavors of different subclass variants that operate -identically- the same... Woah! Just with a fruity-tang of a twist for that same refreshing taste!!
Again, not the players fault. I don’t think the majority of us would be against more sets being viable and even completely getting rid of pull sets."IMO"Aldmeri Dominion1 Nightblade - 1 Templar - 7 Hybrid Mutt Abominations2 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoNot at all. I think as it stands today there are many players locked out of participating in PvP due to power consolidations behind subclassing, emp and ball groups.
Vengeance is not well received by some because they don't like change but what they don't understand is Vengeance is a meaningful step forward out of this mess though who's to say what the end result will look like.
I personally don’t like Vengeance because it limits my creativity and drastically decreases my reasons to play the game outside of PvP. I’m just as fed up with imbalance and power gaps as the rest.
The whole thing could just be a big misunderstanding. I mean, ZOS probably just saw how quickly everyone acquired the Assassin Skill Line and assumed they wanted Vengeance. I think it's great that so much of the player base no longer has bad feelings towards unlaw quests, npcs and have embraced dark and violent mechanisms for rapid regime change; for no other completely unrelated reason(s). You could almost say it happened organically.
This went over my head ngl
You think so? I dunno I thought it was rather creative and interesting with a hint of sarcasm, especially when weighed in with everything else. See, I do have a theory. I think alot of this Vengeance back and forth is about fairness. And Cyrodiil as it is, is emptying.. even uh Blackreach right? Is emptying out. The way things are going is not working.
This is a fact. Until we see how things pan out with Vengeance, the burden of proof for how bad things is are exists with Cyrodiil in its current form and the factors holding people back, such as ball groups, emps and subclassing.
We have a common enemy, you call it fairness, I call it balance. Players are not to blame for either, and taking away things that didn’t create the imbalance/fairness from the players is not the correct decision.
I think that quite frankly there is enough blame to go around. Only thing we can do for now is try and have a nice Holiday (if that is even possible) and keep moving forward; Perhaps ZOS will restore balance to class/PvE/PvP. I figured they would.Edited by Vulkunne on December 3, 2025 2:29AMAll I'm doing is kneading the dough. I don't need your help right now. -Infamous Khajiti Chef1 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Other (Comment below)spartaxoxo wrote: »Necrotech_Master wrote: »personally i never played in cyro during any of the vengeance tests
on one hand i could definitely see it as being more balanced pvp (no uber tanks, fewer ganks) and fights wouldnt end in stalemates, or result in half a dozen people chasing 1 person around a tower for hours on end
on the other hand i can also agree with people that the build limitations might not allow you to play your character exactly how you would want/would normally play
based on what they said in their post about it, what will likely happen is it will shrink the list of camps down to 2: grey host and vengeance
grey host will be current normal pvp with the low pop caps, vengance will be the new balanced ruleset with higher pop caps
Yeah. I'm expecting it to replace no-cp and under 50 PvP moreso than Gray Host. I'm hoping the no faction lock cp option also sticks around but I'm doubtful.
im also expecting blackreach to go too
even on PC NA blackreach barely breaks 2 bar pops nowadays even during primetime, the only camp i even see with locked pops is grey host and even then theres sometimes still minimal queuesBXR_Lonestar wrote: »...
But that only holds true if the people show up to play. Without a massive population, the Vengeance server is DOA and is far less fun than existing PVP. With that said, if Vengeance is going to work as a permanent mode, they are going to need to make cross-play their top priority because I don't know that there are enough people interested in it on Xbox NA alone to make it work.
to be fair that is any kind of pvp in any kind of game with pvp
if people dont participate then the mode is basically deadplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities0 -
The_Meathead✭✭✭✭✭YesI think it holds especially or even more true for something like Vengeance, where the 1v1 or small group stuff is pretty poor by comparison and the sole redeeming grace of the gameplay is in the zerg on zerg.
If Vengeance doesn't get the same participation it got during the first go, it's going to be pretty dismal. Frankly, I don't think it will even come close without tremendous reward incentives, Double AP, and whatever else used as bait, and even then it's on borrowed time till people get the rewards and drift away - like they did towards the end of the first ''test.''
Edited by The_Meathead on December 3, 2025 2:05AM0 -
Razmirra✭✭✭NoMaybe it would entice me to occasionally drop in and out of Cyro and not worry behind my back against a high ranking AvA player and two/three shotting me.PC-NA. Khajiit and Argonian only.
Wary on posting.0 -
Udrath✭✭✭✭YesClass uniqueness died with hybridisation. And afterwards pvp became majority dw/ice staff same build with the same playstyle across all classes.Edited by Udrath on December 3, 2025 4:23AM2 -
Lord_Hev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NoThe_Meathead wrote: »Not at all. I think as it stands today there are many players locked out of participating in PvP due to power consolidations behind subclassing, emp and ball groups.
Vengeance is not well received by some because they don't like change but what they don't understand is Vengeance is a meaningful step forward out of this mess though who's to say what the end result will look like.
I personally don’t like Vengeance because it limits my creativity and drastically decreases my reasons to play the game outside of PvP. I’m just as fed up with imbalance and power gaps as the rest.
^This.
I have no interest in giving up my builds and sets for templates, dropping personalized stats for uniform metrics, or losing the element of theory crafting and effort-earned gearing that makes my character unique and not Templar #392001 or Dragonknight # 500132.
ShutUpIt'sRed said it phenomenally well and I won't try to echo how much of their statement mirrors my own feelings, but our characters are built, shaped, and practiced for PvP and it's what drives us to participate not only in PvP but most assuredly in the rest of the game, beyond. The day that RPG element is removed is the day I leave ESO, and Vengeance is a step in that direction.
They've fallen for the false promise of voices saying, "Now I might even PvP!" and it's going to end how it did in every game I've seen the same phrase uttered; driving away their diehard PVP playerbase while failing to rope in the people who have never held an interest in PvP and still won't, even when it caters to a lower standard of entry/effort.
It's fool's gold that they're chasing, when retuning current Cyrodiil to diminish the absurdity of heal/shield stacking and Ballgroup mechanics, trimming a small handful of problematic outliers like RoA and Warden Charm, and perhaps looking into certain AddOns for how they affect performance would have been a path to true improvement of what's already good and already has players heavily invested. Cyrodiil performance isn't even bad these days, until double Ball Groups show up on top of each other - so why not start there? Why reinvent the wheel and run off your diehards?
I feel like my time here may be getting short, and it's a shame because I truly love ESO.
See, it's not that I don't agree with you. I actually 100% agree with the sentiment on a foundational level. But I do not agree because "personalized builds" are actually being talked about here?? I'd rather fight Templar #392001 instead of Assassination/StormCalling/AnimalCompanions Wretched-Vitality/Whatever clone +1112 along with the occasional bomb-bot #01010101 or the super unique and personalized RoA uniformed turn-and-burn replica clones #22645 + #22646! Which come in very unique fruity flavors of different subclass variants that operate -identically- the same... Woah! Just with a fruity-tang of a twist for that same refreshing taste!!
Again, not the players fault. I don’t think the majority of us would be against more sets being viable and even completely getting rid of pull sets.
100% agreement on that, true. But I still stick to my sentiment in response to people using build uniqueness and creativity as their primary argument against vengeance.
That said, there is a lot wrong with vengeance as well, but this thread's premise is specifically on combat uniqueness.0
