ESO PvP (A Red Sun Rises)

Vulkunne · November 27

Hello ZOS,

This letter is being presented on the forums as a response to the recent posts regarding some of the upcoming proposed changes for PvP. Having played ESO for 10+ years (and PvP'd for a large portion of the time) I wanted to add my thoughts to this conversation as well.

First, please allow me to take a moment and congratulate your Teams working on this. While this does not necessarily mean I agree with every change, it does mean I applaud the fact that changes are being made and while there are still issues to be addressed, I think I understand why you're going this route with Vengeance testing. With that said, I do agree with others who have indicated it would be a terrible idea to get rid of (at a minimum) Grayhost Cyrodiil. I agree that Grayhost Cyrodiil should be left in same form, yet, not left without making necessary balance changes to correct some of the more problematic issues commonly mentioned previously on this forum.

Secondly, aside from the mainstream issues with Cyrodiil PvP, as many others have already discussed, and some have done so to great length, I would also like to take this time to interject a reminder of what I have come to accept as a core problem with Cyrodiil PvP. This feedback is based on my shared experience with other players; it is slightly biased but not in a personal way towards anyone else and with all the storms rolling thru the forums I feel this issue really comes as a high priority for the survival of PvP participation & retention. This is important.

Reading thru the forums it comes as no surprise that people aren't happy about the Cyrodiil PvP experience. While there are many reasons for this, I don't want this post to get wasted on everyone's personal reason(s) (including mine) and not highlight the noticeably destructive effects from these same issues, that have existed for years, as there have been complaints and different suggestions offered in pursuit of resolution to the problems which continue to occur daily and whose force is felt now with all the empty servers. I'm talking about the exclusive power consolidations between things like ball groups, bombers, emps and certain PvP Guilds (who despite what some of them might say) have proven themselves to be almost completely elitist in practice as well as non-inclusive towards other players in same faction(s) at like almost every time I've noticed them login.

Let us begin my saying, I'm not against people playing the game... their way. In fact, that's understandable to do so. However, one thing that I have learned when dealing with people, is you cannot have a relationship based on rules if preferential treatment is significantly doled out to one party vs another when there is no justifiable reason for it. Trust is the key to any relationship and Balance is akin to Trust. And let me just say, Trust has been almost completely lost in Cyrodiil PvP. Yes, Trust meaning, if I play someone else in like a game of chess, I can play with the understanding the rules apply to both sides. Rooks won't wipe a pawn line. If I play COD, then no one is going to be behaving in a manner not consistent with what everyone has for the game. In other words, one team will survive based on what they do rather than sitting there exploiting the entire time and being unkillable.

I cannot Trust that when I login to Cyrodiil, that my organized group, with comms, with heals and so forth can play the game reasonably against a pre-made ball group, completely fabricated to maximize every single bonus imaginable (and some unconventional) and then for the most part never die. Now, I'm not specifically against ball groups, but I'm using this as an example because the reason PvP is dying is because the casuals, the new folks, the part-time vets, hell even the vets themselves, you know... like solo players? ok they're unable to compete. PvP stops when one of these fabricated 'monstrosities', these abominations, come around. And it's not just ball groups. Do we really need Emp? Why? No one can kill the Emps lol. Emp bombers have been known to wipe entire servers, that includes both factions. Over time, this has become a very visible situation, and it makes people stop and ask what am I logging in for? Is this what I paid for?

This is why we need Vengeance. I know some don't like Vengeance. They don't like change, I know. It's hard. But I want you all to know one thing. Whatever happens here, I don't blame ZOS. I know what it's like to feel the wrath of a ball group who got denied their scroll, by ... well someone like you who is just playing the game, trying to return the scroll and so now they spite you at every turn ... they act like my dog does when he doesn't get his toy on bath day. I know what it's like to drink from the cup of an angry group of dual-faction grief bombers, trolling your siege group at every Keep from different factions, including sometimes the same one your group is on. I know what it's like have an enjoyable keep battle and then have one guy ... kill everyone by himself or something else like a ball group show up and then PvP just stops. That's it everybody go home - shows over. The bomber has ended the fight and/or the ball groups only care about themselves, we can't touch them, and they can now siege and counter-siege the Keep by themselves. No rezzes, no comms, no uh coordination in zone, no fellowship, no group invites, no nothing. Nothing but problems from these people. No one else required. The bomber wiped the other faction, in some cases quite literally, the ball group is above everyone else. Is it no surprise why the Cyrodiil Servers are empty?

And so, ZOS, I realize this may not be well received by all. I know what people think about me. But I also realize, in spite of everything, we cannot continue to PvP by going down this road without accountability. Is some of it on ZOS, why sure it is. But all of it no. Some of the players are contributing to everyone else who's not uh... on their level... as they have said themselves, both on the forums and in game. Make no mistake and listen close. The reason we are not logging into Cyrodiil PvP anymore is not because of ZOS. It's because of you. It's because of your Toxic and un-sportsman like behavior. It's because many of you have to be on top. You have put yourselves on this uh 'clandestine saddle' and rode the faction and ultimately everyone else there into the ground with your Rush of Agony abuse, as well as abusing people's time in other ways such as standing around watching them die while your ball group sits there all smug and coy. This is why Vengeance is not going away, and it should move forward. Will it end up like Ravenhost Server, will the Grayhost effect draw more people away from it, will it succeed, only time can tell. But this I know, the reason Ravenhost emptied is because the Guild(s) left, wanna know why? It was because no proc/no CP camp doesn't make for good ball groups. That's why. When they left, Grayhost took over as the pop hub, the main attraction for many reasons why, but that's what happened. Vengeance will succeed if the disdain for these power consolidations has sunk in enough for people to want to exclude them from their game. I hope that is true enough to keep Vengeance viable. Vengeance will be under attack, constantly, now more than ever before.

I want everyone to please understand something. If Vengeance doesn't work, not like if it doesn't succeed in perhaps every way, but if this fails, that means PvP in ESO is essentially gone. Remember Pandora's Box? Hope was left inside. People need to know they have a chance to win in order for competitions to work. Right now, there is no chance to win. There is only a coldness that stems from hard truth, an absolute certainty that under current conditions, PvP cannot be played, the battles cannot be won, no matter how hard I theory-craft, chase builds, no matter what I do I cannot overcome this certainty of seamless mathematical precisions that comes from the fabricated groups and bombers. This is the crux of the matter in a nutshell. As a casual player, as a veteran player even, what tool in my toolkit should I use to have even a 2% chance of taking down this ball group or surviving a bomber? There is virtually none unless its setup thru a complicated and time-consuming process, if that will even work.

Something has to give. It has to. Some say well, uh, if I don't get my way I'm leaving. Great guess what? Many already have left. Like lots and lots, oodles and bunches of players ... already have left. I wish ZOS the best of luck trying to bring the casual and general PvP population back. I'm praying for your ZOS, the other solo players and others I know out there who just want to play the game. We're sick and tired of the shenanigans and stupid gotchas that come from bombers ending a PvP battle and ball groups doing the like. If one bomber can kill that many people, then why are we there? Just to see how awesome you are right? Is Cyrodiil PvP still an experience whose results is are based on our choice(s) or is it going to continue to be based on our ultra sets and group exploits. I say ours because I have mine as well, so I am including myself in the problem as far as sets are concerned. Exploiting heal stack and so forth is not PvPing. A ball group is not just an organized group with comms, nice try. It's a group fabricated to exploit group mechanics. That's it. I'm a solo player, I'm a man of my word and I stand my ground. I don't need 8 to 15 people healing me while I PvP. This is immoral and the current situation in Cyrodiil is the results.... death.

And if it takes putting a stop to all this stuff and we can PvP and Trust in the system once again, then I'm for it and look forward to new changes for Cyrodiil. If they don't work out, oh well because how it is now its dead already. I look forward to the day when PvP in this game becomes something that a few clowns can no longer exploit to unjustly, unfairly and unnecessarily troll, burden and otherwise obstruct good, regular people from PvPing who are not there to promote themselves and act out of place thru access to exploits that no one should have.

Thank you for your time,

Vulkunne

Another thing, real quick and this'll be it. You guys know you are not Assassins. Everybody using Assassin skill line, everybody's an Assassin. What is it going on here? I don't know whether I should laugh, should I cry. People posting on here how much they or their companion dislikes/does not approve of the 'lawless' quests. Yet everybody's a NB and a Sorc now just as easy as you please. What a world, what a world.

BardokRedSnow · November 27

Just nerf heal stacking and give us back the sets we had before zos nerfed them for the crybaby ballgroup pvp safe space enjoyers that could kill them, and things will be fun again.

This was a good time:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Odg6z79O1T0

Make ballgroups killable again, unnerf plaguebreak, hrothgars, unnerf azure blight. Nerf heal stacking. Bombers are fine, have had them for a while, same with emp, theres gotta be a reason to want to emp and gain the most ap.

I get the sentiment OP and sure vengeance has its place for those who dont like greyhost. I think it could even be a good thing if they get rid of blackreach and ravenwatch. But this problem is mostly on zos because they don't understand their own game and havent made a strong enough effort to do so. You know who understood their own game, Bungie for Halo back in the day because they played it. I doubt Zos has tried to pvp in greyhost lmao or maybe they did and thats why they dont bother, and thats why bagging gets you banned now.

Yall really need someone that actually plays pvp and understands it to even begin to fix it especially since you wont listen to the most common thing asked for here which is to nerf heal stacking because of ballgroups.

Gabriel_H · November 27

The problem with Live is the server calcs, which has been said for years by many of us, and which ZOS' data following Vengeance testing confirms.

The biggest part of the skill complexity problem is the stackable HoTs, DoTs, and procs. Vengeance solves that problem - BUT - it is not the only way to solve it. There are other ways to limit that stacking.

Only one DoT of each type: fire, frost, disease etc. With another type overriding the first. There would be some performance gain in that, which could be amplified by throttling it further and having it limited to only one spell and one physical DoT at a time.

HoT's can be limited to only one at a time, but that may cause balance issues between damage/healing done. You could introduce types for HoTs (Light, Dark and Arcane) at limit it to one of each, or even just Light and Dark.

There are other ways to limit the skills too. Unlike a lot of MMOs ZOS have already broken the 4th wall. They already have skills/procs whose actions (and flavour text) distinguish between mob and player.

What would be the overall affect on performance? No idea, it would need to be tested but ZOS tunnel visioned on the Vengeance tests and decided that was they way to go.

I disagree with that decision for several reasons but even if they had gone a different route, such as the above, there would still be people complaining.

SeaGtGruff · November 27

I think Vengeance is going to be a good thing as far as being able to support larger populations in Cyrodiil, but I hope that the Gray Host campaign will remain as an option. I vastly prefer Gray Host to any of the previous Vengeance tests, just because I was too weak and unskilled in Vengeance to be able to successfully engage in the activities I enjoy doing in Cyrodiil, such as solo-capturing resources from the NPC guards, If I can't even do that, then any fun I can have in Cyrodiil will depend heavily on whether there are many other players of my alliance around to fight alongside, and how the size of our group compares to the sizes of the enemies' groups.

ToddIngram · November 27

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Just nerf heal stacking and give us back the sets we had before zos nerfed them for the crybaby ballgroup pvp safe space enjoyers that could kill them, and things will be fun again.

This was a good time:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Odg6z79O1T0

Make ballgroups killable again, unnerf plaguebreak, hrothgars, unnerf azure blight. Nerf heal stacking. Bombers are fine, have had them for a while, same with emp, theres gotta be a reason to want to emp and gain the most ap.

I get the sentiment OP and sure vengeance has its place for those who dont like greyhost. I think it could even be a good thing if they get rid of blackreach and ravenwatch. But this problem is mostly on zos because they don't understand their own game and havent made a strong enough effort to do so. You know who understood their own game, Bungie for Halo back in the day because they played it. I doubt Zos has tried to pvp in greyhost lmao or maybe they did and thats why they dont bother, and thats why bagging gets you banned now.

Yall really need someone that actually plays pvp and understands it to even begin to fix it especially since you wont listen to the most common thing asked for here which is to nerf heal stacking because of ballgroups.

This.^

Just limit heal and shield stacking and see where things stand. If that's not enough dump the most offensive proc sets. That for sure will clear up the vast majority of peformance issues in PvP. That's all they have to do. But they're not even doing this minimal alteration. That's how we know they're not even trying to fix performance.

ToddIngram · November 27

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I think Vengeance is going to be a good thing as far as being able to support larger populations in Cyrodiil, but I hope that the Gray Host campaign will remain as an option. I vastly prefer Gray Host to any of the previous Vengeance tests, just because I was too weak and unskilled in Vengeance to be able to successfully engage in the activities I enjoy doing in Cyrodiil, such as solo-capturing resources from the NPC guards, If I can't even do that, then any fun I can have in Cyrodiil will depend heavily on whether there are many other players of my alliance around to fight alongside, and how the size of our group compares to the sizes of the enemies' groups.

Except everyone who wants to PvP is already doing so, and vengeance will drive away the vast majority of the PvP community.

SeaGtGruff · November 27

ToddIngram wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I think Vengeance is going to be a good thing as far as being able to support larger populations in Cyrodiil, but I hope that the Gray Host campaign will remain as an option. I vastly prefer Gray Host to any of the previous Vengeance tests, just because I was too weak and unskilled in Vengeance to be able to successfully engage in the activities I enjoy doing in Cyrodiil, such as solo-capturing resources from the NPC guards, If I can't even do that, then any fun I can have in Cyrodiil will depend heavily on whether there are many other players of my alliance around to fight alongside, and how the size of our group compares to the sizes of the enemies' groups.

Except everyone who wants to PvP is already doing so, and vengeance will drive away the vast majority of the PvP community.

If ZOS keeps Gray Host (as they've said they want to do) but adds Vengeance as an option for players who have been begging for it, and if "the vast majority of the PvP community" then leaves just because Vengeance got added as an option, in my opinion that would be downright silly and intolerant.

Gabriel_H · November 27

ToddIngram wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I think Vengeance is going to be a good thing as far as being able to support larger populations in Cyrodiil, but I hope that the Gray Host campaign will remain as an option. I vastly prefer Gray Host to any of the previous Vengeance tests, just because I was too weak and unskilled in Vengeance to be able to successfully engage in the activities I enjoy doing in Cyrodiil, such as solo-capturing resources from the NPC guards, If I can't even do that, then any fun I can have in Cyrodiil will depend heavily on whether there are many other players of my alliance around to fight alongside, and how the size of our group compares to the sizes of the enemies' groups.

Except everyone who wants to PvP is already doing so, and vengeance will drive away the vast majority of the PvP community.

Because there can't possibly be players who don't engage with Cyro atm because of imbalance and performance issues, right?!

Theignson · November 27

I think Zerodil could be hugely improved with just a few ez changes:
1) RoA: can only cast every 30 seconds, causes cc immunity, 8m range.
2) VD: only procs for solo players. Back to high risk high reward
3) warden charm: delete it and find something else
4) group heals only apply to 3 players, same with shields
5) you can only have two stacked HOTS : one from yourself and one from another player

I would love playing under these conditions. True, ball groups could still 12v1 but the risk reward ratio would be improved

ShutUpitsRed · November 28

Ok no offense but get good. People running in ball groups etc are playing the exact same game you are. Join or die.

It's completely up to ZOS to balance the game in a way that doesn't favor the kinds of playstyles that are currently winning. That said, with some coordination and know-how, ball groups, emps, and whoever else are just as killable as you would be if you played the same way. Improve your build and your skills, or play against AI in PvE. Yes, the current meta is frustrating and limited, but it's not the fault of players they have to play a certain way to be competitive. It's not toxic to play to win a competitive game.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game."

BardokRedSnow · November 28

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Ok no offense but get good. People running in ball groups etc are playing the exact same game you are. Join or die.

It's completely up to ZOS to balance the game in a way that doesn't favor the kinds of playstyles that are currently winning. That said, with some coordination and know-how, ball groups, emps, and whoever else are just as killable as you would be if you played the same way. Improve your build and your skills, or play against AI in PvE. Yes, the current meta is frustrating and limited, but it's not the fault of players they have to play a certain way to be competitive. It's not toxic to play to win a competitive game.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game."

Saying git gud and join the ballgroup in the same breath?

Picture of irony lol ballgroups are a pvp safe space. I do agree its zos' fault primarily but dont pretend you dont hide in the ball for any reason other than youre afraid to die. Is like a tank telling someone to do damage.

aetherix8 · November 28

Gabriel_H wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I think Vengeance is going to be a good thing as far as being able to support larger populations in Cyrodiil, but I hope that the Gray Host campaign will remain as an option. I vastly prefer Gray Host to any of the previous Vengeance tests, just because I was too weak and unskilled in Vengeance to be able to successfully engage in the activities I enjoy doing in Cyrodiil, such as solo-capturing resources from the NPC guards, If I can't even do that, then any fun I can have in Cyrodiil will depend heavily on whether there are many other players of my alliance around to fight alongside, and how the size of our group compares to the sizes of the enemies' groups.

Except everyone who wants to PvP is already doing so, and vengeance will drive away the vast majority of the PvP community.

Because there can't possibly be players who don't engage with Cyro atm because of imbalance and performance issues, right?!

I really have a hard time understanding why would GH enthusiasts leave the game if Vengeance is enabled alongside GH? Only considering most of the opinions voiced in this forum, we could safely assume that the majority of players will stick to GH and Vengeance will slowly die because of the lack of build diversity? So what’s the issue?

And yes, some of us refuse to play the current Cyro, and are waiting for Vengeance to be added permanently, as an alternative to the GH campaign.

fizzybeef · November 28

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

mocap · November 28

Heal stacking isn't the core problem. We saw this in old Ravenwatch campaign, where 12 players ballgroups were easily (kinda) wiped and now we see unkillable 6-player groups, so they don't need that much of heals.

Speed cap, perfect LOS usage, quick hit-and-run tactics, also not the real problem, since ballgs in old Ravenwatch did the same, yet died a lot.

The real "issue" is a lot of buff and proc sets (now with subclasses) for perfect group optimization, leading to absurd power disbalance between ballgroup and zerg no matter what size.

In other words: put on modern ballgroup Heartland Conqueror and idunno, whatever, Shacklebreaker for Christ's sake ) And such ball will insta die in Gray Host. No amount of heal stacking will save them.

StihlReign · November 28

aetherix8 wrote: »

I really have a hard time understanding why would GH enthusiasts leave the game if Vengeance is enabled alongside GH? Only considering most of the opinions voiced in this forum, we could safely assume that the majority of players will stick to GH and Vengeance will slowly die because of the lack of build diversity? So what’s the issue?

And yes, some of us refuse to play the current Cyro, and are waiting for Vengeance to be added permanently, as an alternative to the GH campaign.

The Devs intend to support Vengeance. They won't support GH. The devs sold Vengeance as a test to improve PvP while building template PvP to replace what we have now.

This can be difficult to understand, a lot of players refuse to play the current Cyro, and are waiting for the devs to fix broken animations, broken heavy attacks, stuck in combat, broken timing, and make subclass adjustments as an alternative to the Vengeance campaign.

Most of the actions PvPers have asked for will change abilities and how they function. I don't think the devs want to change abilities and how they function. In PvE these things often don't matter unless the server engineers call, in PvP they do, which affects PvE, but also the devs resources and time until the ability is appropriately tuned for PvP interactions. Often these things become critical to the community, which is probably the most expensive dev time.

With Template PvP everyone kind of fills in as a bot, once it's tuned there won't be the possibility of critical incidents, the template simply won't allow it. The company can issue or sell template cards, you slot it (Rogue 1, Healer 2 or Combat healer 4), add your perks and off you go. Happy server engineers, PvEPers and devs Yaay play how you want

Gabriel_H · November 28

aetherix8 wrote: »

I really have a hard time understanding why would GH enthusiasts leave the game if Vengeance is enabled alongside GH? Only considering most of the opinions voiced in this forum, we could safely assume that the majority of players will stick to GH and Vengeance will slowly die because of the lack of build diversity? So what’s the issue?

And yes, some of us refuse to play the current Cyro, and are waiting for Vengeance to be added permanently, as an alternative to the GH campaign.

People fear change.

aetherix8 · November 28

Gabriel_H wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

I really have a hard time understanding why would GH enthusiasts leave the game if Vengeance is enabled alongside GH? Only considering most of the opinions voiced in this forum, we could safely assume that the majority of players will stick to GH and Vengeance will slowly die because of the lack of build diversity? So what’s the issue?

And yes, some of us refuse to play the current Cyro, and are waiting for Vengeance to be added permanently, as an alternative to the GH campaign.

People fear change.

I know that some people fear change, while others embrace it. It doesn’t explain why GH enthusiasts want to leave the game even if GH stays on.

ShutUpitsRed · November 28

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Ok no offense but get good. People running in ball groups etc are playing the exact same game you are. Join or die.

It's completely up to ZOS to balance the game in a way that doesn't favor the kinds of playstyles that are currently winning. That said, with some coordination and know-how, ball groups, emps, and whoever else are just as killable as you would be if you played the same way. Improve your build and your skills, or play against AI in PvE. Yes, the current meta is frustrating and limited, but it's not the fault of players they have to play a certain way to be competitive. It's not toxic to play to win a competitive game.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game."

Saying git gud and join the ballgroup in the same breath?

Picture of irony lol ballgroups are a pvp safe space. I do agree its zos' fault primarily but dont pretend you dont hide in the ball for any reason other than youre afraid to die. Is like a tank telling someone to do damage.

If you want to play to win, you gotta play the meta, which seems to be ball groups. You can't crow about skill when you're also complaining about losing all the time lol. I swear half these posts come across as solo players salty they can't find people to play with.

aetherix8 · November 28

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

I really have a hard time understanding why would GH enthusiasts leave the game if Vengeance is enabled alongside GH? Only considering most of the opinions voiced in this forum, we could safely assume that the majority of players will stick to GH and Vengeance will slowly die because of the lack of build diversity? So what’s the issue?

And yes, some of us refuse to play the current Cyro, and are waiting for Vengeance to be added permanently, as an alternative to the GH campaign.

The Devs intend to support Vengeance. They won't support GH. The devs sold Vengeance as a test to improve PvP while building template PvP to replace what we have now.

This can be difficult to understand, a lot of players refuse to play the current Cyro, and are waiting for the devs to fix broken animations, broken heavy attacks, stuck in combat, broken timing, and make subclass adjustments as an alternative to the Vengeance campaign.

Most of the actions PvPers have asked for will change abilities and how they function. I don't think the devs want to change abilities and how they function. In PvE these things often don't matter unless the server engineers call, in PvP they do, which affects PvE, but also the devs resources and time until the ability is appropriately tuned for PvP interactions. Often these things become critical to the community, which is probably the most expensive dev time.

With Template PvP everyone kind of fills in as a bot, once it's tuned there won't be the possibility of critical incidents, the template simply won't allow it. The company can issue or sell template cards, you slot it (Rogue 1, Healer 2 or Combat healer 4), add your perks and off you go. Happy server engineers, PvEPers and devs Yaay play how you want

What makes you think the devs will support Vengeance, but not GH? What gives you the certainty that they will support any mode in fact? Maybe they will enable Vengeance alongside GH and stop supporting both for another ten years?

They plan up to 3 more tests and then they want to make it permanent; the current Vengeance ruleset is very limited, and if perks and loadouts are the pinnacle of adding features, then I have some serious doubts about the viability of this project.

StihlReign · November 28

aetherix8 wrote: »

What makes you think the devs will support Vengeance, but not GH?

The past.

aetherix8 wrote: »

What gives you the certainty that they will support any mode in fact?

Nothing

aetherix8 wrote: »

Maybe they will enable Vengeance alongside GH and stop supporting both for another ten years?

Maybe...

aetherix8 wrote: »

They plan up to 3 more tests and then they want to make it permanent; the current Vengeance ruleset is very limited, and if perks and loadouts are the pinnacle of adding features, then I have some serious doubts about the viability of this project.

Interesting.

Durham · November 28

My Thoughts on the Current State of ESO PvP

To me, the biggest thing driving people out of PvP isn’t casual players—it’s the combination of ball groups and ultra-sweaty builds that stack max speed, max healing, and perfect line-of-sight rotation until they’re basically unkillable. Then you add in monster helms that dump insane weapon damage and penetration for burst, and the result is a meta that just isn’t fun for most players.

Balance Should Come From PvPers, Not Devs Who Aren’t Actively PvPing

We need a dedicated group of actual PvP players involved in balance decisions. People who PvP every night, who theorycraft, who understand the game at a high level. Theorycrafting is one of the most fun parts of PvP for many of us—figuring out that perfect build. And the lack of true PvP representation is exactly why we’re in the state we’re in now.

Problematic Mechanics in the Current Meta

Pull sets with infinite stacking

Group healing that scales out of control

Groups moving at max speed, making siege basically useless

Ball groups effortlessly wiping enemies even when outnumbered 3:1

An organized group should be able to beat PUGs—no argument there. But when a group can delete enemies three times their size without even sweating, something is broken. You’re supposed to struggle against 3x numbers unless you’re in a proper killbox with siege and oils. Right now? You don’t.

Speed is out of hand.

Healing is way out of hand.

Pull AoE sets are better now, but honestly shouldn’t exist at all.

The Vicious Death Problem

Vicious Death is “fine” in concept, but in practice it discourages groups from inviting new players. Someone brand new to PvP, running around with 23k health, can now blow up an entire group of 12 just by dying. In the past, they died and that was the end of it. Now they die and take your group with them.

How is that casual-friendly?

PvP Needs Its Own Rule Set

We’ve said it for years—PvP needs a completely separate balance philosophy from PvE. The new Vengeance system is a step in that direction, but in my opinion, it goes too far.

A Better Solution: Smaller, Focused Maps

Honestly, I’d rather see smaller campaigns with:

80 players per map

7 keeps total

1 scroll per faction

A central Emperor keep accessible only by crossing 3 bridges

Emperors only half as strong as they currently are

This setup would create better fights, less lag, clearer objectives, and fewer broken mechanics dominating the battlefield. We could have 5 to 6 servers. We could also create guild leader boards with points awarded to guilds by holding keeps, and AP per capita.

xDeusEJRx · November 28

Durham wrote: »

My Thoughts on the Current State of ESO PvP

To me, the biggest thing driving people out of PvP isn’t casual players—it’s the combination of ball groups and ultra-sweaty builds that stack max speed, max healing, and perfect line-of-sight rotation until they’re basically unkillable. Then you add in monster helms that dump insane weapon damage and penetration for burst, and the result is a meta that just isn’t fun for most players.

Balance Should Come From PvPers, Not Devs Who Aren’t Actively PvPing

We need a dedicated group of actual PvP players involved in balance decisions. People who PvP every night, who theorycraft, who understand the game at a high level. Theorycrafting is one of the most fun parts of PvP for many of us—figuring out that perfect build. And the lack of true PvP representation is exactly why we’re in the state we’re in now.

Problematic Mechanics in the Current Meta

Pull sets with infinite stacking

Group healing that scales out of control

Groups moving at max speed, making siege basically useless

Ball groups effortlessly wiping enemies even when outnumbered 3:1

An organized group should be able to beat PUGs—no argument there. But when a group can delete enemies three times their size without even sweating, something is broken. You’re supposed to struggle against 3x numbers unless you’re in a proper killbox with siege and oils. Right now? You don’t.

Speed is out of hand.

Healing is way out of hand.

Pull AoE sets are better now, but honestly shouldn’t exist at all.

The Vicious Death Problem

Vicious Death is “fine” in concept, but in practice it discourages groups from inviting new players. Someone brand new to PvP, running around with 23k health, can now blow up an entire group of 12 just by dying. In the past, they died and that was the end of it. Now they die and take your group with them.

How is that casual-friendly?

PvP Needs Its Own Rule Set

We’ve said it for years—PvP needs a completely separate balance philosophy from PvE. The new Vengeance system is a step in that direction, but in my opinion, it goes too far.

A Better Solution: Smaller, Focused Maps

Honestly, I’d rather see smaller campaigns with:

80 players per map

7 keeps total

1 scroll per faction

A central Emperor keep accessible only by crossing 3 bridges

Emperors only half as strong as they currently are

This setup would create better fights, less lag, clearer objectives, and fewer broken mechanics dominating the battlefield. We could have 5 to 6 servers. We could also create guild leader boards with points awarded to guilds by holding keeps, and AP per capita.

I mean I understand your thought process and somewhat agree with the overall narrative. The only problem is that ESO players notoriously never agree on anything, this is especially true for PVP players. So how would players ever come to a consensus on balance

I mean look at discourse over subclassing, that is still a mixed bag to this day.
Discourse over procs has always been mixed, discourse over hybridization has always been mixed. The existence of a no proc campaign or not, was a hot topic when it first came and went.
And then it goes even deeper in each subcategory of debate. Some people debate the strength of sets like rallying cry and what that did for the game since it came out.
Heck, I even saw a post talking about how strong the Torc of the last ayleid king was when it came out.

I just can't ever see any "pvp balance" team of players come together when players cannot even have a general consensus over anything balance related. Heck, a lot of the times players don't even want to admit that a problem exists in the first place. Forget agreeing on a balance change, if we won't even admit to there being a problem.

I think the only universally hated things are like the strength of cross healing and shields maybe. It's easier to discuss what is lacking in pvp instead of what needs to be fixed/balanced in pvp Because again, to even begin balancing, we have to admit that these problems exist.

aetherix8 · November 28

StihlReign wrote: »

The past.

What past precisely? Perhaps smth like proc and no proc campaigns where RW was so legendarly better supported than GH that players were waiting for months to get the new flat stat sets added to the no proc campaign.

StihlReign wrote: »

Nothing

Then how any mode being suported at all / more-than-the-other can even happen?

StihlReign wrote: »

Maybe...

Even quite likely because "the past".

StihlReign wrote: »

The devs sold Vengeance as a test to improve PvP while building template PvP to replace what we have now.

There are several posts across recent Vengeance threads that suggest that players were somehow fooled by ZOS that "this is just a test", so this reply is more general. From the beginning, the wording of their announcements was pretty clear tbh.

https://elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/67731

"Part of the ongoing effort to improve performance and stability in ESO’s open-world PvP experience (...)"

One wonders what that other parts could be. Perhaps developing alternative PvP modes?

"Take up arms on behalf of your chosen Alliance and help us chart the future of ESO’s open-world PvP game mode—we need you!"

If ZOS needs help to "chart the future" of PvP then obviously many options are being considered and nothing is set in stone.

I agree that the wording of their messages was ambiguous, and that's why so many people from the beginning were so skeptical about the "just a test" part. So how does it come that now suddenly we players are being fooled? It's simply incoherent.

aetherix8 · November 28

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

My Thoughts on the Current State of ESO PvP

To me, the biggest thing driving people out of PvP isn’t casual players—it’s the combination of ball groups and ultra-sweaty builds that stack max speed, max healing, and perfect line-of-sight rotation until they’re basically unkillable. Then you add in monster helms that dump insane weapon damage and penetration for burst, and the result is a meta that just isn’t fun for most players.

Balance Should Come From PvPers, Not Devs Who Aren’t Actively PvPing

We need a dedicated group of actual PvP players involved in balance decisions. People who PvP every night, who theorycraft, who understand the game at a high level. Theorycrafting is one of the most fun parts of PvP for many of us—figuring out that perfect build. And the lack of true PvP representation is exactly why we’re in the state we’re in now.

Problematic Mechanics in the Current Meta

Pull sets with infinite stacking

Group healing that scales out of control

Groups moving at max speed, making siege basically useless

Ball groups effortlessly wiping enemies even when outnumbered 3:1

An organized group should be able to beat PUGs—no argument there. But when a group can delete enemies three times their size without even sweating, something is broken. You’re supposed to struggle against 3x numbers unless you’re in a proper killbox with siege and oils. Right now? You don’t.

Speed is out of hand.

Healing is way out of hand.

Pull AoE sets are better now, but honestly shouldn’t exist at all.

The Vicious Death Problem

Vicious Death is “fine” in concept, but in practice it discourages groups from inviting new players. Someone brand new to PvP, running around with 23k health, can now blow up an entire group of 12 just by dying. In the past, they died and that was the end of it. Now they die and take your group with them.

How is that casual-friendly?

PvP Needs Its Own Rule Set

We’ve said it for years—PvP needs a completely separate balance philosophy from PvE. The new Vengeance system is a step in that direction, but in my opinion, it goes too far.

A Better Solution: Smaller, Focused Maps

Honestly, I’d rather see smaller campaigns with:

80 players per map

7 keeps total

1 scroll per faction

A central Emperor keep accessible only by crossing 3 bridges

Emperors only half as strong as they currently are

This setup would create better fights, less lag, clearer objectives, and fewer broken mechanics dominating the battlefield. We could have 5 to 6 servers. We could also create guild leader boards with points awarded to guilds by holding keeps, and AP per capita.

I mean I understand your thought process and somewhat agree with the overall narrative. The only problem is that ESO players notoriously never agree on anything, this is especially true for PVP players. So how would players ever come to a consensus on balance

I mean look at discourse over subclassing, that is still a mixed bag to this day.
Discourse over procs has always been mixed, discourse over hybridization has always been mixed. The existence of a no proc campaign or not, was a hot topic when it first came and went.
And then it goes even deeper in each subcategory of debate. Some people debate the strength of sets like rallying cry and what that did for the game since it came out.
Heck, I even saw a post talking about how strong the Torc of the last ayleid king was when it came out.

I just can't ever see any "pvp balance" team of players come together when players cannot even have a general consensus over anything balance related. Heck, a lot of the times players don't even want to admit that a problem exists in the first place. Forget agreeing on a balance change, if we won't even admit to there being a problem.

I think the only universally hated things are like the strength of cross healing and shields maybe. It's easier to discuss what is lacking in pvp instead of what needs to be fixed/balanced in pvp Because again, to even begin balancing, we have to admit that these problems exist.

That's a very accurate description; in a way, unfortunately. Players would be more efficient at getting their ideas implemented if they could truly rally behind them imho. There appears to be a consensus, at least, that heal/shield stacking needs to be reworked, as well as healing vs damage, so there's some hope.

Ostonoha · November 28

Vulkunne wrote: »

Hello ZOS,

now with all the empty servers. I'm talking about the exclusive power consolidations between things like ball groups, bombers, emps and certain PvP Guilds (who despite what some of them might say) have proven themselves to be almost completely elitist in practice as well as non-inclusive towards other players in same faction(s) at like almost every time I've noticed them login.

I cannot Trust that when I login to Cyrodiil, that my organized group, with comms, with heals and so forth can play the game reasonably against a pre-made ball group, completely fabricated to maximize every single bonus imaginable (and some unconventional) and then for the most part never die. Now, I'm not specifically against ball groups, but I'm using this as an example because the reason PvP is dying is because the casuals, the new folks, the part-time vets, hell even the vets themselves, you know... like solo players? ok they're unable to compete. PvP stops when one of these fabricated 'monstrosities', these abominations, come around. And it's not just ball groups. Do we really need Emp? Why? No one can kill the Emps lol. Emp bombers have been known to wipe entire servers, that includes both factions. Over time, this has become a very visible situation, and it makes people stop and ask what am I logging in for? Is this what I paid for?

It's because of you. It's because of your Toxic and un-sportsman like behavior. It's because many of you have to be on top. You have put yourselves on this uh 'clandestine saddle' and rode the faction and ultimately everyone else there into the ground with your Rush of Agony abuse, as well as abusing people's time in other ways such as standing around watching them die while your ball group sits there all smug and coy.

This is the crux of the matter in a nutshell. As a casual player, as a veteran player even, what tool in my toolkit should I use to have even a 2% chance of taking down this ball group or surviving a bomber? There is virtually none unless its setup thru a complicated and time-consuming process, if that will even work.

. We're sick and tired of the shenanigans and stupid gotchas that come from bombers ending a PvP battle and ball groups doing the like. If one bomber can kill that many people, then why are we there? Just to see how awesome you are right?
That's it. I'm a solo player, I'm a man of my word and I stand my ground. I don't need 8 to 15 people healing me while I PvP. This is immoral and the current situation in Cyrodiil is the results.... death.

.

This seems like a post because 1 random person or hey maybe even 2-3 people out of the 100s of people who are in pvp guilds were mean and so you are blasting all of them as being "toxic" which seems from this post is more to do with you not liking how they play based on how you call it exploiting and essentially painting it as bullying and "Toxic" vs what they actually said or behave as a person. Most if not all of the ball group leaders are actually rather kind people who are willing to take people and train them to learn to group. Sure there's some headcases but that's just life. The majority of them are friendly and don't take themselves too serious.

Complaining about emperor buffs at this stage of ESO? Emperor has been gutted so badly its a joke at this point compared to what it was before.

Rush of Agony has been also gutted to the point if you or really anyone at this point are being pulled by it (unless its behind you and you had no chance to see it) honestly its you who are at fault. Ball groups use it just to keep other groups honest at this point in gvgs. The smug and coy comment by you really does show you are projecting your own angry feelings on other players and its 1 sided affair of anger coming from yourself.

Dying to bombers happen You want to know why its needed? To prevent entire factions from steamrolling smaller factions. I have been in this game since beta. The amount of battles turned because of a few well placed bombs by a solo or a group has saved or taken keeps/scrolls. You worry about having a 2% chance of making a difference, try making a difference when all that matter is how many people and not how many people know what they are doing. That is what vengence is. There is no punishment for just stacking bodies. You want to see mindless pvp? which is what ball grouping gets called, watch what happens when the 50-100 AD steamroll across the server in the vengence camp unopposed. Half the time the only reason today scrolls get retaken or keeps even flipped is due to a ball group or a coordinated group flipping a battle.

You sound very high and mighty yourself saying you dont need 8-15 people heailing you. You must be sooooo good. Fact is you are the one showing your elitist attitude here with comments like that. This is an mmopvp game focused on open world and group play. If you are that upset about people using groups and planning things might I suggest playing a single player game like solitaire?

I do agree some nerfs need to happen to lower the power of ball groups. But some of you need to stop thinking your snipe or poison inject spam is actually an effective counter to groups. It would be a much better game tbh if groups actually knew how to play instead of standing around mindless. Sadly actually attempting to play the game is "elitist" or "sweaty" Which is funny considering most of the people in the "sweaty" groups are 40+ and on something laughing the entire time and not even taking it that serious. Just know that when you die to some of these groups you are dying to drunken grandma.

If you want to actually fix pvp. Increase group sizes back to 24.

Revert the base 1000 wep and spell damage we were given. Heck lower the base damage and healing across the board.

Increase raw damage given from having stat pools like we had years ago. This will make people swap out of high health builds while still having damage.

Bring back bleeds ext having 100% armor and block ignore to kill tanks. Among other things..... movement speed being one of them.

Gabriel_H · November 28

aetherix8 wrote: »

There are several posts across recent Vengeance threads that suggest that players were somehow fooled by ZOS that "this is just a test", so this reply is more general. From the beginning, the wording of their announcements was pretty clear tbh.

Shows a certain level of naivety and lack of logic on the part of the players. Tests give data, data informs decisions, decsions produce outcomes.

Vengeance as is would not be the route I would have chosen, but certain components of my preferred solution can be found within that framework because there are only a handful of ways to solve the problem of too many server calcs.

BardokRedSnow · November 28

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

Not bitter, they're a problem that zos needs to dismantle, and its a fact that instead of doing that, they've strengthened this sort of play while actively discouraging solo play as best they can.

And while doing so and acting as though grouping up and using constant heals on a bomber and ult dumping is skilled play, these same players act like they're elite when the majority (not all) of them cant stand on their own skill. You can choose to play as you like but the developers literally cater to this brand of play, nerfed everything that could counter it without massive zergs and siege, and is also the main reason greyhost sees instability in pc na at least. And now because of that instability, we may even lose greyhost altogether. All to "solve" a problem they created and enabled in the first place.

Of course they're gonna see criticism, especially when those players wanna act like its not true and gaslight the rest of the fanbase.

SneaK · November 28

Sooooo, the issue is balance? But Vengeance is about performance?

Weird…

BardokRedSnow · November 28

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Ok no offense but get good. People running in ball groups etc are playing the exact same game you are. Join or die.

It's completely up to ZOS to balance the game in a way that doesn't favor the kinds of playstyles that are currently winning. That said, with some coordination and know-how, ball groups, emps, and whoever else are just as killable as you would be if you played the same way. Improve your build and your skills, or play against AI in PvE. Yes, the current meta is frustrating and limited, but it's not the fault of players they have to play a certain way to be competitive. It's not toxic to play to win a competitive game.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game."

Saying git gud and join the ballgroup in the same breath?

Picture of irony lol ballgroups are a pvp safe space. I do agree its zos' fault primarily but dont pretend you dont hide in the ball for any reason other than youre afraid to die. Is like a tank telling someone to do damage.

If you want to play to win, you gotta play the meta, which seems to be ball groups. You can't crow about skill when you're also complaining about losing all the time lol. I swear half these posts come across as solo players salty they can't find people to play with.

Im sure you'd like to believe that lol. Fact is I dont enjoy following crown like you so I typically only play with one other person as a duo at most. Occasionally I do join a buddy of mine's group, Jaypou and Chaos that moved here from EU, fantastic healer. Cool dudes, but you can ask them, I'm too solo coded lol. DK solo is very fun for me, I enjoy the freedom.

And if you see my post here in the beginning of the thread, I show a video of this, with an old duo of mine, blowing up one of your precious ballgroups with plaguebreak lol.

You do not have to play the meta to win, meta is defined by people who play well in ways others dont until they are copied, and EP for instance being ran by their balls is why without massive numbers they cant win, it makes their plays on the map obvious and exploitable by the other factions.

On top of the fact that these ballgroups are so arrogant that they rarely actually help their faction and would rather troll with scroll or something before dying in a keep across the map... The only people that hold such importance of ballgroups are ballgroup enjoyers themselves.

mocap · November 28

It's funny when your alliance's ballgroups are tearing enemy apart, zone chat is silent and everyone is happy. All the ballgroup haters instantly shut their mouths xd

YandereGirlfriend · November 28

I would not mind seeing HOTs and DOTs limited to one instance per morph. Similarly to how buffs and debuffs do not stack with themselves.

Obviously there is hidden complexity to that "simple" solution (e.g. whose copy takes precedence), though.

Abilities and sets in general could stand to be simplified and de-bloated as well. In PvP and PvE. Like compare the description of Steel Tornado to Cephaliarch's Flail and we can easily see that one of these abilities is NOT like the other and that one is taxing the server much more than the other to cast.

You can make the same observations with something like Vicious Death vs. Azureblight vs. Pariah vs. Hircine's. Vicious Death is extremely performant and only fires once and under very specific circumstances. Meanwhile, Azureblight applies unique "stacks" to targets that all have to be individually tracked with separate cooldowns per target. Plus, it incentivizes mindless sticky DOT spamming, which we already mentioned above as being a source of server calculation spam. Pariah is egregious because it is constantly running in the background, checking the wearer's health and updating their Armor value accordingly. Hircine's is continuously running area checks for group-mates over a vast distance and then dynamically updating their stats.

Which is to say that players often get it twisted when they think about the performance impact of various sets. Vicious Death gets mentioned quite a bit but that is actually a terrible example to use because the set is very low cost in terms of calculations. We should have MORE sets like Vicious Death! But sets that apply persistent effects and/or are continuously updating themselves in the background are where players should really be looking. This is true for other game effects (like Vampire Undeath) and CP as well, where something like Occult Overload as a point event is much lighter to run than Pain's Refuge, etc.

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

So true. It's fatiguing. Nearly always by folk who have no earthly idea what they are talking about.