ESO PvP (A Red Sun Rises)

LPapirius

Gabriel_H wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Nobody is stopping you from making a group of your own.

Not everyone wants to log in to run around keeps in their pvp safe space playing follow the leader to 12v1 solos.

Why are you playing an MMO if you don't want to group with others? Cyrodiil is a group PvP zone. Play a bomber and wait for the ball groups to stand on a resource or something I guess?

While I'm sure @BardokRedSnow can speak for themselves, I'm getting very bored with the bad faith arguments.

"Not everyone wants to log in to run around keeps in their pvp safe space playing follow the leader to 12v1 solos" - THAT is not the same as "Why are you playing an MMO if you don't want to group with others?"

Do. You. Understand. That?

If you're bored with bad faith arguments you should stop presenting them.

Still demonstrating you don't know what words mean I see.

...speaking of bad faith arguments.......see the above post

Iriidius

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Nobody is stopping you from making a group of your own.

Not everyone wants to log in to run around keeps in their pvp safe space playing follow the leader to 12v1 solos.

Why are you playing an MMO if you don't want to group with others? Cyrodiil is a group PvP zone. Play a bomber and wait for the ball groups to stand on a resource or something I guess?

Ballgroups are not the only way to play in a group althought Ballgroups seem to despise other ways to play in group even more than playing solo.
Playing alone against others is still multiplayer and requires playing MMORPg as you cant do that in Skyrim only in ESO.
Even if you want play with others you often cant because your friends/guilds arent online.
And typing lfg is even more more despised and ineffective than playing alone and usually you dont even get invite.

Ostonoha wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

Not bitter, they're a problem that zos needs to dismantle, and its a fact that instead of doing that, they've strengthened this sort of play while actively discouraging solo play as best they can.

And while doing so and acting as though grouping up and using constant heals on a bomber and ult dumping is skilled play, these same players act like they're elite when the majority (not all) of them cant stand on their own skill. You can choose to play as you like but the developers literally cater to this brand of play, nerfed everything that could counter it without massive zergs and siege, and is also the main reason greyhost sees instability in pc na at least. And now because of that instability, we may even lose greyhost altogether. All to "solve" a problem they created and enabled in the first place.

Of course they're gonna see criticism, especially when those players wanna act like its not true and gaslight the rest of the fanbase.

wait whose the one acting elite here? You and others actually do seem rather bitter.

I cant quote both threads but you say "and EP for instance being ran by their balls is why without massive numbers they cant win, it makes their plays on the map obvious and exploitable by the other factions."

You do realize the faction you play on has the most ball groups right? There's like 3-4 EP groups that run and they share essentially the same people.

All you are showing here is your sheer ignorance. You and many others are not "solo" players because you run without a group. You are a solo player if you go and fight on your own. Not if you stack inside a faction and are ungrouped. That is what you and many others cant seem to understand.

"We all know it is, case in point most ballgroups avoid fighting eachother majority of the time. They don't want to fight other balls, they want to fight pugs and 12v1 solos".

considering most groups msg one another and meet to fight in a field somewhere. Happens all the time. You do not see so you do not think it happens.

And here is example of ballgroups despising zergsurfing even more than soloplay so much they accuse others of zergsurfing without evidence to make their opinion less important.
Many zergsurfer only zergsurf rather than fight on their own because if you do so every premade will attack you on sight so you are already doomed to die when you see them. You only dont have to do it yourself because a ballgroup gives you much more protection than zergsurfing.
Ballgroups having consensual fights doesnt change the fact you prefer unfair fights or help the players you farm more than Xv1 gankers and Sealclubbers sometimes duelling outside Cyrodiil. You neither get forced into unwinnable fight nor ambushed nor get spawncamped nor doubleteamed nor disrespected or loose Objective you were playing for like your prey.

James-Wayne

Just turn groups off and make every player for themselves, no cross heals, buffs etc solo managed.

Ostonoha

Iriidius wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Nobody is stopping you from making a group of your own.

Not everyone wants to log in to run around keeps in their pvp safe space playing follow the leader to 12v1 solos.

Why are you playing an MMO if you don't want to group with others? Cyrodiil is a group PvP zone. Play a bomber and wait for the ball groups to stand on a resource or something I guess?

Ballgroups are not the only way to play in a group althought Ballgroups seem to despise other ways to play in group even more than playing solo.
Playing alone against others is still multiplayer and requires playing MMORPg as you cant do that in Skyrim only in ESO.
Even if you want play with others you often cant because your friends/guilds arent online.
And typing lfg is even more more despised and ineffective than playing alone and usually you dont even get invite.

Ostonoha wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

Not bitter, they're a problem that zos needs to dismantle, and its a fact that instead of doing that, they've strengthened this sort of play while actively discouraging solo play as best they can.

And while doing so and acting as though grouping up and using constant heals on a bomber and ult dumping is skilled play, these same players act like they're elite when the majority (not all) of them cant stand on their own skill. You can choose to play as you like but the developers literally cater to this brand of play, nerfed everything that could counter it without massive zergs and siege, and is also the main reason greyhost sees instability in pc na at least. And now because of that instability, we may even lose greyhost altogether. All to "solve" a problem they created and enabled in the first place.

Of course they're gonna see criticism, especially when those players wanna act like its not true and gaslight the rest of the fanbase.

wait whose the one acting elite here? You and others actually do seem rather bitter.

I cant quote both threads but you say "and EP for instance being ran by their balls is why without massive numbers they cant win, it makes their plays on the map obvious and exploitable by the other factions."

You do realize the faction you play on has the most ball groups right? There's like 3-4 EP groups that run and they share essentially the same people.

All you are showing here is your sheer ignorance. You and many others are not "solo" players because you run without a group. You are a solo player if you go and fight on your own. Not if you stack inside a faction and are ungrouped. That is what you and many others cant seem to understand.

"We all know it is, case in point most ballgroups avoid fighting eachother majority of the time. They don't want to fight other balls, they want to fight pugs and 12v1 solos".

considering most groups msg one another and meet to fight in a field somewhere. Happens all the time. You do not see so you do not think it happens.

And here is example of ballgroups despising zergsurfing even more than soloplay so much they accuse others of zergsurfing without evidence to make their opinion less important.
Many zergsurfer only zergsurf rather than fight on their own because if you do so every premade will attack you on sight so you are already doomed to die when you see them. You only dont have to do it yourself because a ballgroup gives you much more protection than zergsurfing.
Ballgroups having consensual fights doesnt change the fact you prefer unfair fights or help the players you farm more than Xv1 gankers and Sealclubbers sometimes duelling outside Cyrodiil. You neither get forced into unwinnable fight nor ambushed nor get spawncamped nor doubleteamed nor disrespected or loose Objective you were playing for like your prey.

sorry in advance, there are going to be different comments/thoughts scattered across this reply for you.


Never said I despise it. In fact I am fine with however people want to play. Ill play/lead a ball group and im pretty sure most people would beat me 1v1. Even if I was on a dueling toon instead of a group dependent build. Fact is I do not care if someone can beat me 1v1 as that is not the point for me of an mmo pvp game. The point is to group in a multiplayer game and to fight. If someone can solo and do it good for them more power to them. But the person said they by their own words how they feel anyone who plays unlike them is inferior. The real hate seems to be the people who do not group vs those willing to group. I do not see ballgroupers on the forums making constant threads or yelling in zone or sending hate tells complaining about "solos" or "zergs" as often as I see solos and "zergers" complaining about people for grouping. " Id almost assume this OP was a sarcastic joke if that was not the common theme of hate centered by non-groupers on a daily basis.

I have zergsurfed we all do. I remember the days 5 years ago when you could surf for hours on end from ales-chal, ash-roe, brk-alessia and find fights. Its natural and fine to do in a mass pvp game. But if I am surfing I do not consider myself a "solo" player just because I am not grouped with the other 10-40 people around me. To do so would be a lie.

You said we prefer unfair fights tell me outside of tabards which at this point of ESO means nothing, how do you tell who is grouped and a threat and who is not?

Is this a group or a bunch of randoms chasing 2 ad tanks?



Is this a group or more randoms?



Should I as a group leave them once I find out they are not grouped? Just let them take the keep because it is an "unfair fight" They opted into the fight.

This game has had an issue since beta of anyone even trying to be semi-serious towards it being described by others as pure evil (such as the OP describes) I wish I had the posts from the beta forums on people describing anyone who wanted buff trackers as "elitist scum"

Are there groups that run down true solo people? Yes sad but true. This game would be better if more groups existed, I get why people do not but it would be better if they did. But I will agree they do also need to tone down the power of groups. Sadly they have no idea how to do it. It is built into so many parts of the base game combat design with healing/damage scaling the same, AOEs doing as much and in some cases more than single target, and scribing/multiclassing has only made it worse. In fact the ball grouping essentially is trial set up in pvp land but of course with a slight difference in gear/set ups but the same concept of buffing and stacking on one another remains the same which seems that was done by design.

But to say we never get ambushed, put into unwinnable situations, or double teamed/disrespected? Happens all the time, for example this thread and the many like it trashing ball groupers as proof and I put one above in this post. That's not counting the constant "you need people to carry you" "you need healers to keep you alive" ext that comes in game.

Iriidius

Ostonoha wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Nobody is stopping you from making a group of your own.

Not everyone wants to log in to run around keeps in their pvp safe space playing follow the leader to 12v1 solos.

Why are you playing an MMO if you don't want to group with others? Cyrodiil is a group PvP zone. Play a bomber and wait for the ball groups to stand on a resource or something I guess?

Ballgroups are not the only way to play in a group althought Ballgroups seem to despise other ways to play in group even more than playing solo.
Playing alone against others is still multiplayer and requires playing MMORPg as you cant do that in Skyrim only in ESO.
Even if you want play with others you often cant because your friends/guilds arent online.
And typing lfg is even more more despised and ineffective than playing alone and usually you dont even get invite.

Ostonoha wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

Not bitter, they're a problem that zos needs to dismantle, and its a fact that instead of doing that, they've strengthened this sort of play while actively discouraging solo play as best they can.

And while doing so and acting as though grouping up and using constant heals on a bomber and ult dumping is skilled play, these same players act like they're elite when the majority (not all) of them cant stand on their own skill. You can choose to play as you like but the developers literally cater to this brand of play, nerfed everything that could counter it without massive zergs and siege, and is also the main reason greyhost sees instability in pc na at least. And now because of that instability, we may even lose greyhost altogether. All to "solve" a problem they created and enabled in the first place.

Of course they're gonna see criticism, especially when those players wanna act like its not true and gaslight the rest of the fanbase.

wait whose the one acting elite here? You and others actually do seem rather bitter.

I cant quote both threads but you say "and EP for instance being ran by their balls is why without massive numbers they cant win, it makes their plays on the map obvious and exploitable by the other factions."

You do realize the faction you play on has the most ball groups right? There's like 3-4 EP groups that run and they share essentially the same people.

All you are showing here is your sheer ignorance. You and many others are not "solo" players because you run without a group. You are a solo player if you go and fight on your own. Not if you stack inside a faction and are ungrouped. That is what you and many others cant seem to understand.

"We all know it is, case in point most ballgroups avoid fighting eachother majority of the time. They don't want to fight other balls, they want to fight pugs and 12v1 solos".

considering most groups msg one another and meet to fight in a field somewhere. Happens all the time. You do not see so you do not think it happens.

And here is example of ballgroups despising zergsurfing even more than soloplay so much they accuse others of zergsurfing without evidence to make their opinion less important.
Many zergsurfer only zergsurf rather than fight on their own because if you do so every premade will attack you on sight so you are already doomed to die when you see them. You only dont have to do it yourself because a ballgroup gives you much more protection than zergsurfing.
Ballgroups having consensual fights doesnt change the fact you prefer unfair fights or help the players you farm more than Xv1 gankers and Sealclubbers sometimes duelling outside Cyrodiil. You neither get forced into unwinnable fight nor ambushed nor get spawncamped nor doubleteamed nor disrespected or loose Objective you were playing for like your prey.

sorry in advance, there are going to be different comments/thoughts scattered across this reply for you.


Never said I despise it. In fact I am fine with however people want to play. Ill play/lead a ball group and im pretty sure most people would beat me 1v1. Even if I was on a dueling toon instead of a group dependent build. Fact is I do not care if someone can beat me 1v1 as that is not the point for me of an mmo pvp game. The point is to group in a multiplayer game and to fight. If someone can solo and do it good for them more power to them. But the person said they by their own words how they feel anyone who plays unlike them is inferior. The real hate seems to be the people who do not group vs those willing to group. I do not see ballgroupers on the forums making constant threads or yelling in zone or sending hate tells complaining about "solos" or "zergs" as often as I see solos and "zergers" complaining about people for grouping. " Id almost assume this OP was a sarcastic joke if that was not the common theme of hate centered by non-groupers on a daily basis.

I have zergsurfed we all do. I remember the days 5 years ago when you could surf for hours on end from ales-chal, ash-roe, brk-alessia and find fights. Its natural and fine to do in a mass pvp game. But if I am surfing I do not consider myself a "solo" player just because I am not grouped with the other 10-40 people around me. To do so would be a lie.

You said we prefer unfair fights tell me outside of tabards which at this point of ESO means nothing, how do you tell who is grouped and a threat and who is not?

Is this a group or a bunch of randoms chasing 2 ad tanks?



Is this a group or more randoms?



Should I as a group leave them once I find out they are not grouped? Just let them take the keep because it is an "unfair fight" They opted into the fight.

This game has had an issue since beta of anyone even trying to be semi-serious towards it being described by others as pure evil (such as the OP describes) I wish I had the posts from the beta forums on people describing anyone who wanted buff trackers as "elitist scum"

Are there groups that run down true solo people? Yes sad but true. This game would be better if more groups existed, I get why people do not but it would be better if they did. But I will agree they do also need to tone down the power of groups. Sadly they have no idea how to do it. It is built into so many parts of the base game combat design with healing/damage scaling the same, AOEs doing as much and in some cases more than single target, and scribing/multiclassing has only made it worse. In fact the ball grouping essentially is trial set up in pvp land but of course with a slight difference in gear/set ups but the same concept of buffing and stacking on one another remains the same which seems that was done by design.

But to say we never get ambushed, put into unwinnable situations, or double teamed/disrespected? Happens all the time, for example this thread and the many like it trashing ball groupers as proof and I put one above in this post. That's not counting the constant "you need people to carry you" "you need healers to keep you alive" ext that comes in game.

Still you disagreed BardokRedSnow being soloplayer claiming he is zergsurfer without evidence. Why would you do that if not to discredit him and his opinion. Where did he claim everyone else being inferoior in quoted comment comment other than saying they cant stand on their own skill. You said yourself most players would beat you 1v1 and that you dont care about individual skill only skill in group. Sure there are also skilled(also 1v1)players in ballgroup and it will make ballgroup stronger but being one is not reuired to win heavily outnumbered in ballgroup against randoms. You can also do that if many of the randoms are more skilled than you because of the shared effects you get from your group.

Like I already said there is a huge gap between playing a singleplayergame like Skyrim and playing in a ballgroup where people still have to play an MMORPG with many other ways to play in a group and 1v1/1vX being in the gap.

Ballgroups dont have to complain about solo and zerg players because ballgroup get favored by system to almost always win. But your complain about healing and damage scaling the same is hidden complain about solobuilds because ballgroups can stack healing on healers and damage on dds while users of solobuilds cant because they have only 1 char to do both.

That you dont get ambushed, doubleteamed usw referred to ballgroups not ambushing other ballgroups while they are already fighting a zerg or other ballgroup than tbagging you and/or let them open a keep only to kill them at flags.

If you can avoid attacking other ballgroup when they take keeps, already fight others usw you can also do that for others. The cherrypicked players in pictures(especially first) look pretty much like a zerguild as they run after 1 player on command all stacked without fear of dying to VDproc from a squishy zergsurfer and like they deserve getting killed by other group.

xR3ACTORx

To be fair ballgroups do attack other ballgroups and it's also a fact that ballgroups have to respawn after that. Ballgroups being unkillable is a myth told by people who probably never ballgrouped.

fizzybeef

When i used to play in a bg we actively used to search for other organised groups to hunt them down.
But this is console.
If the PC ball groups are zerg surfing 12v2 groups i have no argument against it.
You´s seem to suffer a lot because of it.

I just can tell even the best bg can be took out by 2-3 people on mic with a negate easy with a decent timing doing snake pushes. I also did that with friends.

But i agree pugs have a harder time 100%.

But again can you really blame punish people for the urge to play organised and do good in a game and use what the game offers?

Vulkunne

Ostonoha wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Nobody is stopping you from making a group of your own.

Not everyone wants to log in to run around keeps in their pvp safe space playing follow the leader to 12v1 solos.

Why are you playing an MMO if you don't want to group with others? Cyrodiil is a group PvP zone. Play a bomber and wait for the ball groups to stand on a resource or something I guess?

Ballgroups are not the only way to play in a group althought Ballgroups seem to despise other ways to play in group even more than playing solo.
Playing alone against others is still multiplayer and requires playing MMORPg as you cant do that in Skyrim only in ESO.
Even if you want play with others you often cant because your friends/guilds arent online.
And typing lfg is even more more despised and ineffective than playing alone and usually you dont even get invite.

Ostonoha wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

Not bitter, they're a problem that zos needs to dismantle, and its a fact that instead of doing that, they've strengthened this sort of play while actively discouraging solo play as best they can.

And while doing so and acting as though grouping up and using constant heals on a bomber and ult dumping is skilled play, these same players act like they're elite when the majority (not all) of them cant stand on their own skill. You can choose to play as you like but the developers literally cater to this brand of play, nerfed everything that could counter it without massive zergs and siege, and is also the main reason greyhost sees instability in pc na at least. And now because of that instability, we may even lose greyhost altogether. All to "solve" a problem they created and enabled in the first place.

Of course they're gonna see criticism, especially when those players wanna act like its not true and gaslight the rest of the fanbase.

wait whose the one acting elite here? You and others actually do seem rather bitter.

I cant quote both threads but you say "and EP for instance being ran by their balls is why without massive numbers they cant win, it makes their plays on the map obvious and exploitable by the other factions."

You do realize the faction you play on has the most ball groups right? There's like 3-4 EP groups that run and they share essentially the same people.

All you are showing here is your sheer ignorance. You and many others are not "solo" players because you run without a group. You are a solo player if you go and fight on your own. Not if you stack inside a faction and are ungrouped. That is what you and many others cant seem to understand.

"We all know it is, case in point most ballgroups avoid fighting eachother majority of the time. They don't want to fight other balls, they want to fight pugs and 12v1 solos".

considering most groups msg one another and meet to fight in a field somewhere. Happens all the time. You do not see so you do not think it happens.

And here is example of ballgroups despising zergsurfing even more than soloplay so much they accuse others of zergsurfing without evidence to make their opinion less important.
Many zergsurfer only zergsurf rather than fight on their own because if you do so every premade will attack you on sight so you are already doomed to die when you see them. You only dont have to do it yourself because a ballgroup gives you much more protection than zergsurfing.
Ballgroups having consensual fights doesnt change the fact you prefer unfair fights or help the players you farm more than Xv1 gankers and Sealclubbers sometimes duelling outside Cyrodiil. You neither get forced into unwinnable fight nor ambushed nor get spawncamped nor doubleteamed nor disrespected or loose Objective you were playing for like your prey.

sorry in advance, there are going to be different comments/thoughts scattered across this reply for you.


Never said I despise it. In fact I am fine with however people want to play. Ill play/lead a ball group and im pretty sure most people would beat me 1v1. Even if I was on a dueling toon instead of a group dependent build. Fact is I do not care if someone can beat me 1v1 as that is not the point for me of an mmo pvp game. The point is to group in a multiplayer game and to fight. If someone can solo and do it good for them more power to them. But the person said they by their own words how they feel anyone who plays unlike them is inferior. The real hate seems to be the people who do not group vs those willing to group. I do not see ballgroupers on the forums making constant threads or yelling in zone or sending hate tells complaining about "solos" or "zergs" as often as I see solos and "zergers" complaining about people for grouping. " Id almost assume this OP was a sarcastic joke if that was not the common theme of hate centered by non-groupers on a daily basis.

I have zergsurfed we all do. I remember the days 5 years ago when you could surf for hours on end from ales-chal, ash-roe, brk-alessia and find fights. Its natural and fine to do in a mass pvp game. But if I am surfing I do not consider myself a "solo" player just because I am not grouped with the other 10-40 people around me. To do so would be a lie.

You said we prefer unfair fights tell me outside of tabards which at this point of ESO means nothing, how do you tell who is grouped and a threat and who is not?

Is this a group or a bunch of randoms chasing 2 ad tanks?



Is this a group or more randoms?



Should I as a group leave them once I find out they are not grouped? Just let them take the keep because it is an "unfair fight" They opted into the fight.

This game has had an issue since beta of anyone even trying to be semi-serious towards it being described by others as pure evil (such as the OP describes) I wish I had the posts from the beta forums on people describing anyone who wanted buff trackers as "elitist scum"

Are there groups that run down true solo people? Yes sad but true. This game would be better if more groups existed, I get why people do not but it would be better if they did. But I will agree they do also need to tone down the power of groups. Sadly they have no idea how to do it. It is built into so many parts of the base game combat design with healing/damage scaling the same, AOEs doing as much and in some cases more than single target, and scribing/multiclassing has only made it worse. In fact the ball grouping essentially is trial set up in pvp land but of course with a slight difference in gear/set ups but the same concept of buffing and stacking on one another remains the same which seems that was done by design.

But to say we never get ambushed, put into unwinnable situations, or double teamed/disrespected? Happens all the time, for example this thread and the many like it trashing ball groupers as proof and I put one above in this post. That's not counting the constant "you need people to carry you" "you need healers to keep you alive" ext that comes in game.

I'm sorry, who did I describe as being 'pure evil'? I think some of the things allowed to continue are not very nice. Evil? I dunno. Maybe you could say that. Maybe over time it's the lack of attention to some of these things that's evil you know?

It's clear you are very heavily biased towards ball groups and that's alright, it's that your thing that's fine.

What you are not understanding is there is no ummm how should I put this... in terms of power there is no comparison. You said the act of running down solos and probably by that extension casuals as well is sad but true and I agree. But the big problem we face, is in terms of power, in terms of gameplay there is no leverage against a ball group. Now, as soon as I say that people will come and talk about the ways to bring a ball group down. Of course it can be done. But I'm drawing from my experiences in PvP over the last I dunno, 4 or 5 years that I can recall, and it takes a strong, concentrated, well-directed and time consuming, organized method to kill these ball groups. In other words, like the whole server, whoever is there or can get there has to work together and maybe they can kill them. That's not a solid maybe, it is not intended to evoke confidence it's just a transitional word for the thought being presented.

I've seen entire servers throwing themselves at a ball group or emp bomber and fail. I've seen entire death logs that fittingly resemble things like the Vietnam War Memorial. Ok, what is going on here right? What is the point of PvP. Because I thought we were fighting in large scale battles and bringing down Keeps. These ultra tough fabricated monstrosities CONSUME everyone's time and energy -by themselves- the game becomes about killing them which is something that really feels more like a distraction and a majority of the player base is not up to, does not want and did not ask for.

Do you understand what I'm saying here? I'm all well and good with live and let live. As had I said, in the before time, a bomber or a ball group or a goose, a gander, a wet willy, a joke or a gotcha once in a while is all in fun. Keeps people interested. But no, something somewhere has gotten out of hand here. And no reasonable person is going to pretend that the power situation in this game is not out of hand. That includes subclassing as well with some builds themselves now nigh unkillable. Skip the ball group just go straight to the build. This is the reason why everyone, except the best of the best, has left or gathered together for collective punishment over on Grayhost. But everyone cannot have or understand some of these meta builds. Yeah, they could in time but in a war the goal is not to out-do each other.

Disagree feel free. But I've seen the worst of it and that's why I don't PvP as much unless its small scale. It's not out of spite it's not out of getting high off judging people but dammit some of these same people judge me while they sit back and uh screw everyone over in their comfy little authoritarian nation on ice cleats. They've put themselves in a special place above everyone else cause they know no one can bother them. And if you don't agree that's fine but you'd have to be just completely out of touch not to recognize it for what it is. Potential apathy on the part of the devs, while certainly not with everything, but apathy doesn't make it all right. That's not an excuse. Not for the little people like me who want to PvP.

Make no mistake, this is not a boycott, if anything I wish things could return back to how they were around 2019. But that's just wishful thinking. It's my thread and I've stated my intent very clearly, which is to take this time while the game is in transition to make the proposal to correct and move on from the mistakes of the past so the game will live longer for everyone. In this instance I'm talking about PvP but really, I could write one of these for PvE as well. If its not helpful, if we're all comfortable with how badly things are going then go ahead. I won't be there. I'll still be playing ESO but in some instances I have to recognize the fact that like New World and other games, there's some content that's become so exclusive, that not just me but a good chunk of the community can't participate. And that is the real problem.

BardokRedSnow

@Ostonoha

Everyone zerg surfs at some point, Ive seen even the best soloers in a zerg, it is cyrodiil, truth is that is the intent of cyrodiil. It is fun at times, and tiring at times.

I really don't care if someone calls me a zergling lol its the most common insult, people I've fought in their keep on the walls and killed in the middle of their group know otherwise. I am far from the best, I am not a 1v1 god. I am a brawler, a tank and spank DK enthusiast, that loves humping towers lol.

I just find it really funny though that a ballgrouper that chases down players like me 12v1 acts like they don't know the difference when the whole point of having to go 12v1 is those players dont set off VD in a crowd as easy as the rest because they don't build to zerg in the first place. Cant tell you how many times whole ballgroups have chased me down in a tower because I killed one straggler or because I dunno, maybe they felt insulted their 12 man ult dump didn't work, but when you remember these guys are in comms calling out targets, it makes it all the more hilarious.

You don't have to be a soloer or understand why I prefer solo, duo, or at best small scale, but don't try to gaslight me and act like you don't know what I am talking about. That just shows I'm right when I say you stay in that ball because you're afraid of standing on your own skill and dying.

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

To be fair ballgroups do attack other ballgroups and it's also a fact that ballgroups have to respawn after that. Ballgroups being unkillable is a myth told by people who probably never ballgrouped.

It happens on occasion yes, and the better ones do organize gvg, but the majority of them just look for individuals and pugs to run over. Its cyrodiil, cyrodiil things happen and thats their right, but they can at least own up to it and say yea we avoid better ballgroups and focus on what we can kill because we think its smart, vs pretend like they never chase people around 12v1 when we see it daily lol.

ShutUpitsRed

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

@Ostonoha

Cant tell you how many times whole ballgroups have chased me down in a tower because I killed one straggler

This is what gets me about anti-ball group stuff. It's a group. They're people playing together. Of course they're going to go after you if you kill one of theirs lol?

Also, in general, you have to chase individuals down because that individual can re-light keeps, keep people in combat, or otherwise cause problems if they get away. Even 1v1, can't tell you the amount of times in IC when someone's blocked/acted like they just wanted peace until they've jumped me the moment I leave them alone. It's PvP, people want you dead and for good reason, that's the game lol.

BardokRedSnow

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

@Ostonoha

Cant tell you how many times whole ballgroups have chased me down in a tower because I killed one straggler

This is what gets me about anti-ball group stuff. It's a group. They're people playing together. Of course they're going to go after you if you kill one of theirs lol?

Also, in general, you have to chase individuals down because that individual can re-light keeps, keep people in combat, or otherwise cause problems if they get away. Even 1v1, can't tell you the amount of times in IC when someone's blocked/acted like they just wanted peace until they've jumped me the moment I leave them alone. It's PvP, people want you dead and for good reason, that's the game lol.

You ignored the part where I also said sometimes they literally just target me because Im alone I see.

Or where I said thats fine enjoy your 12v1 for whatever reason you want but dont pretend it doesn't happen.

Radiate77

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Ok maybe Yandere had a point lol

@YandereGirlfriend takes usually do. 😁

ShutUpitsRed

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

@Ostonoha

Cant tell you how many times whole ballgroups have chased me down in a tower because I killed one straggler

This is what gets me about anti-ball group stuff. It's a group. They're people playing together. Of course they're going to go after you if you kill one of theirs lol?

Also, in general, you have to chase individuals down because that individual can re-light keeps, keep people in combat, or otherwise cause problems if they get away. Even 1v1, can't tell you the amount of times in IC when someone's blocked/acted like they just wanted peace until they've jumped me the moment I leave them alone. It's PvP, people want you dead and for good reason, that's the game lol.

You ignored the part where I also said sometimes they literally just target me because Im alone I see.

Or where I said thats fine enjoy your 12v1 for whatever reason you want but dont pretend it doesn't happen.

No, that's what I mean when I say "you have to chase individuals down because that individual can re-light keeps, keep people in combat, or otherwise cause problems if they get away," other players are enemy combatants who affect how the battles and score overall happen. A single player can set camps, scout/spy, bomb, gank, take resources and towns, etc. Cyrodiil isn't a big dueling arena.

BardokRedSnow

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

@Ostonoha

Cant tell you how many times whole ballgroups have chased me down in a tower because I killed one straggler

This is what gets me about anti-ball group stuff. It's a group. They're people playing together. Of course they're going to go after you if you kill one of theirs lol?

Also, in general, you have to chase individuals down because that individual can re-light keeps, keep people in combat, or otherwise cause problems if they get away. Even 1v1, can't tell you the amount of times in IC when someone's blocked/acted like they just wanted peace until they've jumped me the moment I leave them alone. It's PvP, people want you dead and for good reason, that's the game lol.

You ignored the part where I also said sometimes they literally just target me because Im alone I see.

Or where I said thats fine enjoy your 12v1 for whatever reason you want but dont pretend it doesn't happen.

No, that's what I mean when I say "you have to chase individuals down because that individual can re-light keeps, keep people in combat, or otherwise cause problems if they get away," other players are enemy combatants who affect how the battles and score overall happen. A single player can set camps, scout/spy, bomb, gank, take resources and towns, etc. Cyrodiil isn't a big dueling arena.

Again, justify your style of play all you like, just don't get mad when you're called out for it and pretend it doesn't happen. Cyrodiil is whatever you make it, you wanna chase down solos and claim ballgroups do it because they care about the score lol go ahead.

Can tell you now though, they don't, or they wouldn't be farming with our own scroll on the other side of the map.

ShutUpitsRed

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

@Ostonoha

Cant tell you how many times whole ballgroups have chased me down in a tower because I killed one straggler

This is what gets me about anti-ball group stuff. It's a group. They're people playing together. Of course they're going to go after you if you kill one of theirs lol?

Also, in general, you have to chase individuals down because that individual can re-light keeps, keep people in combat, or otherwise cause problems if they get away. Even 1v1, can't tell you the amount of times in IC when someone's blocked/acted like they just wanted peace until they've jumped me the moment I leave them alone. It's PvP, people want you dead and for good reason, that's the game lol.

You ignored the part where I also said sometimes they literally just target me because Im alone I see.

Or where I said thats fine enjoy your 12v1 for whatever reason you want but dont pretend it doesn't happen.

No, that's what I mean when I say "you have to chase individuals down because that individual can re-light keeps, keep people in combat, or otherwise cause problems if they get away," other players are enemy combatants who affect how the battles and score overall happen. A single player can set camps, scout/spy, bomb, gank, take resources and towns, etc. Cyrodiil isn't a big dueling arena.

Again, justify your style of play all you like, just don't get mad when you're called out for it and pretend it doesn't happen. Cyrodiil is whatever you make it, you wanna chase down solos and claim ballgroups do it because they care about the score lol go ahead.

Can tell you now though, they don't, or they wouldn't be farming with our own scroll on the other side of the map.

Who's pretending it doesn't happen? I'm explaining that people are playing the game, it's not a personal insult to you or whatever. If you're on the other team, you're fair game.

Ostonoha

Iriidius wrote: »

Ostonoha wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Nobody is stopping you from making a group of your own.

Not everyone wants to log in to run around keeps in their pvp safe space playing follow the leader to 12v1 solos.

Why are you playing an MMO if you don't want to group with others? Cyrodiil is a group PvP zone. Play a bomber and wait for the ball groups to stand on a resource or something I guess?

Ballgroups are not the only way to play in a group althought Ballgroups seem to despise other ways to play in group even more than playing solo.
Playing alone against others is still multiplayer and requires playing MMORPg as you cant do that in Skyrim only in ESO.
Even if you want play with others you often cant because your friends/guilds arent online.
And typing lfg is even more more despised and ineffective than playing alone and usually you dont even get invite.

Ostonoha wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

Not bitter, they're a problem that zos needs to dismantle, and its a fact that instead of doing that, they've strengthened this sort of play while actively discouraging solo play as best they can.

And while doing so and acting as though grouping up and using constant heals on a bomber and ult dumping is skilled play, these same players act like they're elite when the majority (not all) of them cant stand on their own skill. You can choose to play as you like but the developers literally cater to this brand of play, nerfed everything that could counter it without massive zergs and siege, and is also the main reason greyhost sees instability in pc na at least. And now because of that instability, we may even lose greyhost altogether. All to "solve" a problem they created and enabled in the first place.

Of course they're gonna see criticism, especially when those players wanna act like its not true and gaslight the rest of the fanbase.

wait whose the one acting elite here? You and others actually do seem rather bitter.

I cant quote both threads but you say "and EP for instance being ran by their balls is why without massive numbers they cant win, it makes their plays on the map obvious and exploitable by the other factions."

You do realize the faction you play on has the most ball groups right? There's like 3-4 EP groups that run and they share essentially the same people.

All you are showing here is your sheer ignorance. You and many others are not "solo" players because you run without a group. You are a solo player if you go and fight on your own. Not if you stack inside a faction and are ungrouped. That is what you and many others cant seem to understand.

"We all know it is, case in point most ballgroups avoid fighting eachother majority of the time. They don't want to fight other balls, they want to fight pugs and 12v1 solos".

considering most groups msg one another and meet to fight in a field somewhere. Happens all the time. You do not see so you do not think it happens.

And here is example of ballgroups despising zergsurfing even more than soloplay so much they accuse others of zergsurfing without evidence to make their opinion less important.
Many zergsurfer only zergsurf rather than fight on their own because if you do so every premade will attack you on sight so you are already doomed to die when you see them. You only dont have to do it yourself because a ballgroup gives you much more protection than zergsurfing.
Ballgroups having consensual fights doesnt change the fact you prefer unfair fights or help the players you farm more than Xv1 gankers and Sealclubbers sometimes duelling outside Cyrodiil. You neither get forced into unwinnable fight nor ambushed nor get spawncamped nor doubleteamed nor disrespected or loose Objective you were playing for like your prey.

sorry in advance, there are going to be different comments/thoughts scattered across this reply for you.


Never said I despise it. In fact I am fine with however people want to play. Ill play/lead a ball group and im pretty sure most people would beat me 1v1. Even if I was on a dueling toon instead of a group dependent build. Fact is I do not care if someone can beat me 1v1 as that is not the point for me of an mmo pvp game. The point is to group in a multiplayer game and to fight. If someone can solo and do it good for them more power to them. But the person said they by their own words how they feel anyone who plays unlike them is inferior. The real hate seems to be the people who do not group vs those willing to group. I do not see ballgroupers on the forums making constant threads or yelling in zone or sending hate tells complaining about "solos" or "zergs" as often as I see solos and "zergers" complaining about people for grouping. " Id almost assume this OP was a sarcastic joke if that was not the common theme of hate centered by non-groupers on a daily basis.

I have zergsurfed we all do. I remember the days 5 years ago when you could surf for hours on end from ales-chal, ash-roe, brk-alessia and find fights. Its natural and fine to do in a mass pvp game. But if I am surfing I do not consider myself a "solo" player just because I am not grouped with the other 10-40 people around me. To do so would be a lie.

You said we prefer unfair fights tell me outside of tabards which at this point of ESO means nothing, how do you tell who is grouped and a threat and who is not?

Is this a group or a bunch of randoms chasing 2 ad tanks?



Is this a group or more randoms?



Should I as a group leave them once I find out they are not grouped? Just let them take the keep because it is an "unfair fight" They opted into the fight.

This game has had an issue since beta of anyone even trying to be semi-serious towards it being described by others as pure evil (such as the OP describes) I wish I had the posts from the beta forums on people describing anyone who wanted buff trackers as "elitist scum"

Are there groups that run down true solo people? Yes sad but true. This game would be better if more groups existed, I get why people do not but it would be better if they did. But I will agree they do also need to tone down the power of groups. Sadly they have no idea how to do it. It is built into so many parts of the base game combat design with healing/damage scaling the same, AOEs doing as much and in some cases more than single target, and scribing/multiclassing has only made it worse. In fact the ball grouping essentially is trial set up in pvp land but of course with a slight difference in gear/set ups but the same concept of buffing and stacking on one another remains the same which seems that was done by design.

But to say we never get ambushed, put into unwinnable situations, or double teamed/disrespected? Happens all the time, for example this thread and the many like it trashing ball groupers as proof and I put one above in this post. That's not counting the constant "you need people to carry you" "you need healers to keep you alive" ext that comes in game.

] Why would you do that if not to discredit him and his opinion. Where did he claim everyone else being inferoior in quoted comment comment other than saying they cant stand on their own skill. You said yourself most players would beat you 1v1 and that you dont care about individual skill only skill in group. Sure there are also skilled(also 1v1)players in ballgroup and it will make ballgroup stronger but being one is not reuired to win heavily outnumbered in ballgroup against randoms. You can also do that if many of the randoms are more skilled than you because of the shared effects you get from your group.

Like I already said there is a huge gap between playing a singleplayergame like Skyrim and playing in a ballgroup where people still have to play an MMORPG with many other ways to play in a group and 1v1/1vX being in the gap.

Ballgroups dont have to complain about solo and zerg players because ballgroup get favored by system to almost always win. But your complain about healing and damage scaling the same is hidden complain about solobuilds because ballgroups can stack healing on healers and damage on dds while users of solobuilds cant because they have only 1 char to do both.

That you dont get ambushed, doubleteamed usw referred to ballgroups not ambushing other ballgroups while they are already fighting a zerg or other ballgroup than tbagging you and/or let them open a keep only to kill them at flags.

If you can avoid attacking other ballgroup when they take keeps, already fight others usw you can also do that for others. The cherrypicked players in pictures(especially first) look pretty much like a zerguild as they run after 1 player on command all stacked without fear of dying to VDproc from a squishy zergsurfer and like they deserve getting killed by other group.

You know what. You are right ill accept the wrongness on that point as its only from my pov in game.

His comment however about "some of us are built different" is a clear tell sign of a feeling of superiority when discussing groups. "not everyone wants to log in and run around keeps in their pvp safe space playing follow the leader to 12v1 solos" such a snide remark only supporting a clear sign that anyone who groups to pvp is in fact inferior and afraid to pvp.

Group play is very different from solo play. The builds/experience are different. This is also a weird game where 1 person can in fact bomb a larger group of players. So in theory a bomber can and I have killed more than I should be. But that really has to do with how this game has been designed since its start. It allows for whacky situations where 1 person can nuke 12+ in a second but if that person had to 1v1 one of those people would prob die in a single damage rotation. (i dont have a problem with it for open world play)

I do think healing and damage scaling has always been an issue. One that I myself have abused like anyone else. I remember being a stamplar years ago with 2 other stamplars stacking vigor and running around 3vXing whatever we could. Or watching it happen to others. In a normal mmo game I have never really seen 1 person take out 3-4 people no matter how bad the skill gap is as consistently as this game has. I personally think that drove away more players than ballgrouping has. Although today ballgrouping is the main villain of the pvp scene compared to 1 or small man groups. The constant complaints of "this one person keeps killing us 10 of us" in zone was sometimes humorous but I did feel for them. But I do think more power back to solo play since i do not see people do it as often. That being said I do not see what is wrong then with saying groups should be more efficiently capable of damage and healing since its communicated. But there is also the issue of a cap on skills slotted. So of course a group is going to be able to bring more buffs since it can be coordinated vs a solo who if they want certain buffs needs to slot it themselves. But that right there is also part of the power creep of ball groups. The ability to share responsibility of buffs opens up skill slots for other things and other buffs. I dont disagree ball groups need a nerf, but the concept of playing in one should not be the issue which many people tend to have towards groups.

Cherrypicked yes because it was an image where I said hmm in this fight idk if its a random zerg or people in discord coordinated. In each case yes they did blow up to VD (but not by 12 people but by 6 if i remember right)

Ball groups tend to ignore one another in certain areas of the map due to it not being a challenge. Does it happen all the time no. Sometimes its understood especially with scrolls that another group will hit you from the side or inside a tri keep or if its the only fight on the map. But really it does not happen as much as zone wants because its a waste of time for the ball group to go 1 push with a zerg and then have to find another fight. Time is better spent finding another fight that is a challenge and therefore fun. The bolded section ill be honest I do not understand what you are saying other then we should just avoid other fights. Difference is a ball group most times is not going to flip a keep. Sure sometimes its worth it to come kill them. But many times it aint worth it. In terms of other fights, the people are a threat to take a keep and therefore need to be killed. You also dont know what the outcome will be in those fights. Maybe its 30+ people to fight you, maybe its just 10. But against a ball group thats already fighting 20+. We know the outcome and its not worth the time to do it. (sometimes)

Ostonoha

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

@Ostonoha

Everyone zerg surfs at some point, Ive seen even the best soloers in a zerg, it is cyrodiil, truth is that is the intent of cyrodiil. It is fun at times, and tiring at times.

I really don't care if someone calls me a zergling lol its the most common insult, people I've fought in their keep on the walls and killed in the middle of their group know otherwise. I am far from the best, I am not a 1v1 god. I am a brawler, a tank and spank DK enthusiast, that loves humping towers lol.

I just find it really funny though that a ballgrouper that chases down players like me 12v1 acts like they don't know the difference when the whole point of having to go 12v1 is those players dont set off VD in a crowd as easy as the rest because they don't build to zerg in the first place. Cant tell you how many times whole ballgroups have chased me down in a tower because I killed one straggler or because I dunno, maybe they felt insulted their 12 man ult dump didn't work, but when you remember these guys are in comms calling out targets, it makes it all the more hilarious.

You don't have to be a soloer or understand why I prefer solo, duo, or at best small scale, but don't try to gaslight me and act like you don't know what I am talking about. That just shows I'm right when I say you stay in that ball because you're afraid of standing on your own skill and dying.

It happens on occasion yes, and the better ones do organize gvg, but the majority of them just look for individuals and pugs to run over. Its cyrodiil, cyrodiil things happen and thats their right, but they can at least own up to it and say yea we avoid better ballgroups and focus on what we can kill because we think its smart, vs pretend like they never chase people around 12v1 when we see it daily lol.[/quote]

I agree we all surf. Heck ill prob be doing it tonight and for all I know you will kill me its a game and im in literally in a build that cant heal or do damage just CC.

I do hear that said a lot, "this ball group chased me for killing X" well of course. If you kill my healer in the back you need to face consequences.

But I do find it funny you are assuming I am in a group bc I am afraid of dying in a video game. Heck half the time im leading I attempt to get us zerged by as much as possible for the thrill of the fight. Kick the beehive and see what comes out is 100% the plan.

So do not say that people who are in a group are afraid to "stand on their own skill and dying" again if you want to have a game where your solo skill matters go play solitaire. Nobody is afraid to "die on their own" I log in for the entertainment of talking in discord and playing with friends and we try and make a challenge to that group. When I want to play solo ill log into EU5. Maybe you do not fit this bill of this but the vast majority of people who claim to be "solo" and trash talking are people running around ungrouped in a sea of players believing and claiming to be solo only because they are not in group. But that is not a solo player in the slightest.

Ostonoha

Vulkunne wrote: »

Ostonoha wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Nobody is stopping you from making a group of your own.

I'm sorry, who did I describe as being 'pure evil'? I think some of the things allowed to continue are not very nice. Evil? I dunno. Maybe you could say that. Maybe over time it's the lack of attention to some of these things that's evil you know?

It's clear you are very heavily biased towards ball groups and that's alright, it's that your thing that's fine.

What you are not understanding is there is no ummm how should I put this... in terms of power there is no comparison. You said the act of running down solos and probably by that extension casuals as well is sad but true and I agree. But the big problem we face, is in terms of power, in terms of gameplay there is no leverage against a ball group. Now, as soon as I say that people will come and talk about the ways to bring a ball group down. Of course it can be done. But I'm drawing from my experiences in PvP over the last I dunno, 4 or 5 years that I can recall, and it takes a strong, concentrated, well-directed and time consuming, organized method to kill these ball groups. In other words, like the whole server, whoever is there or can get there has to work together and maybe they can kill them. That's not a solid maybe, it is not intended to evoke confidence it's just a transitional word for the thought being presented.

I've seen entire servers throwing themselves at a ball group or emp bomber and fail. I've seen entire death logs that fittingly resemble things like the Vietnam War Memorial. Ok, what is going on here right? What is the point of PvP. Because I thought we were fighting in large scale battles and bringing down Keeps. These ultra tough fabricated monstrosities CONSUME everyone's time and energy -by themselves- the game becomes about killing them which is something that really feels more like a distraction and a majority of the player base is not up to, does not want and did not ask for.

Do you understand what I'm saying here? I'm all well and good with live and let live. As had I said, in the before time, a bomber or a ball group or a goose, a gander, a wet willy, a joke or a gotcha once in a while is all in fun. Keeps people interested. But no, something somewhere has gotten out of hand here. And no reasonable person is going to pretend that the power situation in this game is not out of hand. That includes subclassing as well with some builds themselves now nigh unkillable. Skip the ball group just go straight to the build. This is the reason why everyone, except the best of the best, has left or gathered together for collective punishment over on Grayhost. But everyone cannot have or understand some of these meta builds. Yeah, they could in time but in a war the goal is not to out-do each other.

Disagree feel free. But I've seen the worst of it and that's why I don't PvP as much unless its small scale. It's not out of spite it's not out of getting high off judging people but dammit some of these same people judge me while they sit back and uh screw everyone over in their comfy little authoritarian nation on ice cleats. They've put themselves in a special place above everyone else cause they know no one can bother them. And if you don't agree that's fine but you'd have to be just completely out of touch not to recognize it for what it is. Potential apathy on the part of the devs, while certainly not with everything, but apathy doesn't make it all right. That's not an excuse. Not for the little people like me who want to PvP.

Make no mistake, this is not a boycott, if anything I wish things could return back to how they were around 2019. But that's just wishful thinking. It's my thread and I've stated my intent very clearly, which is to take this time while the game is in transition to make the proposal to correct and move on from the mistakes of the past so the game will live longer for everyone. In this instance I'm talking about PvP but really, I could write one of these for PvE as well. If its not helpful, if we're all comfortable with how badly things are going then go ahead. I won't be there. I'll still be playing ESO but in some instances I have to recognize the fact that like New World and other games, there's some content that's become so exclusive, that not just me but a good chunk of the community can't participate. And that is the real problem.

Deleting some text from previous posts bc this is a massive wall of text from both.

In terms of the word evil its a hyperbole of your entire post.

But no I do agree ball groups need to be toned down. We in eso pvp have a few major issues going on. Some built in it from day 1. Like AOEs somehow doing as much if not more damage and healing than some single target skills.

subclassing/scribing has destroyed balance. When we had 4 classes they all had their pros and cons. Example templar had no major sorcery source unless it used two hander or the mages skill. But it got major mending to compensate. Each class had its own features. But this has been gutted by eso and now its what flavor/color attack do you want. We also used to have different ways of fighting. Slow bleed builds, high damage burst, ganky, ext. Now at least all I see in pvp is high burst and yea thats about it. Mainly because fights are over way too quick. But thats due to damage/healing be too damn high.

Zergs and pvdoor are the majority of fights now. It used to be we would have like 40v40 going on between ep/ad and the same between dc/ep or ad/dc and fights all over the map. Now its people sneaking across the map to take a keep and sitting there or going to another keep to avoid having to fight. OR zergs sit in the keep until they reach critical mass feeling comfortable to push a keep. It feels rare to see prolonged engagements between factions. It is not like years ago where I could fight for nearly 2 hours between ales/bleaks and people would just fight. Instead they just counter siege. This leads to more pvpers imo moving to ball groups as its the only way to fight the zerg. But really prob a mix of both. People group more, zergs get zergier to counter. But without a ball group or even bombers there is nothing to stop 40 people in comms just rolling every keep. Which is what I think vengeance is going to be.

There are more but I don't want to stay here all day.

The TLDR of it yes I agree lower the strength of groups but dont nerf them out of existence. But I also think this game needs more people willing to actually group and coordinate. PVP is dominated by people in builds that are in reality are not helpful for fighting numbers. Poison inject/dizzy swing for example are just useless vs a ball group or really any group coordinated. Groups need to be nerfed, but the player base needs to actually build properly. We also need someone at ZoS who has a clear idea of what they actually want pvp to look like and to communicate it.