Remove Snow Treaders from PvP

QB1 · November 8

Snow treaders need to be removed from PvP or disabled if in a group.

Ball groups with every member kitted out in snow treaders is what makes them invincible; it's not cross healing. Fighting ball groups almost every night on PC-NA Greyhost and the groups that are invincible are the ones running snow treaders that can't be snared or immobilized. It's game-breaking. They sit inside keeps and farm zergs over and over and there is nothing that can be done about it until the whole server shows up.

The groups that aren't in snow treaders are actually manageable to fight because they can be slowed/immobilized/pulled away from the group to kill them.

Rohamad_Ali · November 8

Set Bonus
Effect: While in combat, you are immune to snares and immobilizations that can be cleansed. However, you cannot sprint.

That really makes that much of a difference in a ballgroup? I'm asking not judging because I don't know. I haven't played in a group in a long time.

QB1 · November 8

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Set Bonus
Effect: While in combat, you are immune to snares and immobilizations that can be cleansed. However, you cannot sprint.

That really makes that much of a difference in a ballgroup? I'm asking not judging because I don't know. I haven't played in a group in a long time.

Yes, it makes a good group an invincible group. The “not being able to sprint” part doesn’t even affect them because top end groups have dedicated speeders giving all group members major and minor expedition, they also run all swift jewelry. So they are faster than everyone on the battlefield without sprinting and can’t be slowed, snared or immobilized.

All top ball groups require their players to run snow treaders for this reason

Rohamad_Ali · November 8

QB1 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Set Bonus
Effect: While in combat, you are immune to snares and immobilizations that can be cleansed. However, you cannot sprint.

That really makes that much of a difference in a ballgroup? I'm asking not judging because I don't know. I haven't played in a group in a long time.

Yes, it makes a good group an invincible group. The “not being able to sprint” part doesn’t even affect them because top end groups who require all of their members to run snow treaders also have a dedicated speeder or two giving all group members major or minor expedition, they also run all swift jewelry. So they are faster than everyone on the battlefield without sprinting and can’t be slowed, snared or immobilized.

All top ball groups require their players to run snow treaders for this reason

That's a game breaking advantage. No wonder people are screaming about ball groups again. They get accused of cheating when ZoS hands out stuff like this. Good reporting.

QB1 · November 8

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Set Bonus
Effect: While in combat, you are immune to snares and immobilizations that can be cleansed. However, you cannot sprint.

That really makes that much of a difference in a ballgroup? I'm asking not judging because I don't know. I haven't played in a group in a long time.

Yes, it makes a good group an invincible group. The “not being able to sprint” part doesn’t even affect them because top end groups who require all of their members to run snow treaders also have a dedicated speeder or two giving all group members major or minor expedition, they also run all swift jewelry. So they are faster than everyone on the battlefield without sprinting and can’t be slowed, snared or immobilized.

All top ball groups require their players to run snow treaders for this reason

That's a game breaking advantage. No wonder people are screaming about ball groups again. They get accused of cheating when ZoS hands out stuff like this. Good reporting.

Yup ball groups have been doing this for quite a while, or at least the best ones do, but everyone blames cross healing or cheating etc. But the issue is snow treaders. I don’t think ZOS intended for 12 man coordinated groups to stack permanent snare/immobilization immunity with constant major/minor expedition and Swift, but that’s where we are. It removes every counterplay that normally breaks a group apart

Major_Mangle · November 8

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/673440/it-s-time-to-adjust-snowthreaders-pvp#latest

Made a similar thread some time ago, seems like ZOS have 0 interest in adjusting tools that are clearly overtuned, unless it´s sets like Azureblight who´s a counterplay to organized groups, then ye ZOS seems to care for some reason...

QB1 · November 8

Major_Mangle wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/673440/it-s-time-to-adjust-snowthreaders-pvp#latest

Made a similar thread some time ago, seems like ZOS have 0 interest in adjusting tools that are clearly overtuned, unless it´s sets like Azureblight who´s a counterplay to organized groups, then ye ZOS seems to care for some reason...

Yup that thread is spot on. Crazy it still hasn’t been adjusted with the countless posts here about ball groups

CameraBeardThePirate · November 8

Yah Treaders are very very strong. There are some ball group comps without them, but they make positioning 10x easier.

YandereGirlfriend · November 10

Snow Treaders are strong but on the other side of the coin the Soft-CC immunity period is stupidly short and there are far too many sources of Soft-CC randomly stapled onto abilities that should not have them (a feature of the overall ability bloat that has been nagging the game for years).

You need to either increase the window of Soft-CC immunity after one is applied to you or you need to prune the Soft-CC sources down to basically CC-exlusive abilities rather than damage + CC double-dips, etc.

xFocused · November 11

Major_Mangle wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/673440/it-s-time-to-adjust-snowthreaders-pvp#latest

Made a similar thread some time ago, seems like ZOS have 0 interest in adjusting tools that are clearly overtuned, unless it´s sets like Azureblight who´s a counterplay to organized groups, then ye ZOS seems to care for some reason...

Same with Snake in the Stars. Originally designed to be a counter set to these sort of groups and got nerfed upon arrival, now it’s useless.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · November 11

Don't worry snow treaders don't exist in vengeance so it wont be a problem for much longer eh

Solariken · November 11

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Don't worry snow treaders don't exist in vengeance so it wont be a problem for much longer eh

Let's hope. I am so sick of ROA and Warden Charm and all the other hateful crap ruining the experience.

Kartalin · November 11

Our group doesn't even use snow treaders anymore, for what it's worth

YandereGirlfriend · November 11

xFocused wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/673440/it-s-time-to-adjust-snowthreaders-pvp#latest

Made a similar thread some time ago, seems like ZOS have 0 interest in adjusting tools that are clearly overtuned, unless it´s sets like Azureblight who´s a counterplay to organized groups, then ye ZOS seems to care for some reason...

Same with Snake in the Stars. Originally designed to be a counter set to these sort of groups and got nerfed upon arrival, now it’s useless.

It's definitely not useless. It basically zeroes-out HOTs on the target but you still have to have an actual burst damage combo to back it up.

If you were expecting it to be an instant "I Win" button then yeah, it's not that. And that is for the best.

CameraBeardThePirate · November 11

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/673440/it-s-time-to-adjust-snowthreaders-pvp#latest

Made a similar thread some time ago, seems like ZOS have 0 interest in adjusting tools that are clearly overtuned, unless it´s sets like Azureblight who´s a counterplay to organized groups, then ye ZOS seems to care for some reason...

Same with Snake in the Stars. Originally designed to be a counter set to these sort of groups and got nerfed upon arrival, now it’s useless.

It's definitely not useless. It basically zeroes-out HOTs on the target but you still have to have an actual burst damage combo to back it up.

If you were expecting it to be an instant "I Win" button then yeah, it's not that. And that is for the best.

Yah as you said, Snakes definitely isn't useless. If you're in a group and you call out who you're putting it on, the target just sort of falls over because they won't be able to heal off the pressure from your group focusing them.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · November 12

xFocused wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/673440/it-s-time-to-adjust-snowthreaders-pvp#latest

Made a similar thread some time ago, seems like ZOS have 0 interest in adjusting tools that are clearly overtuned, unless it´s sets like Azureblight who´s a counterplay to organized groups, then ye ZOS seems to care for some reason...

Same with Snake in the Stars. Originally designed to be a counter set to these sort of groups and got nerfed upon arrival, now it’s useless.

The reason snake got nerfed was because of smallscale & soloers. Imagine having snake cast on you by the zerg over and over again with no cooldown when fighting them outnumbered. Was not nerfed due to 'groups'.

Theignson · November 13

Snow treaders have definite drawbacks. They don’t prevent stuns or charm. Also, you can’t sprint in combat. So you lose, for example, Orc sprint bonus and lose sprint bonus from medium armor.
Then it is not so easy to get to the speed cap. You lose 40% from sprint. So major+minor expedition gets so only to 145 (cap is 200). Celerity gets you to 155. Two swift gets you to169, which is not terrible but not all that fast. And, you have to sacrifice one red CP and 2 jewelryenchants.
This is why I tried Snowtreaders but pretty quickly dropped them as a solo player.
You see many players now almost always at max speed. Those players according to the above numbers are not using snowtreaders.

RaidingTraiding · November 13

Theignson wrote: »

Snow treaders have definite drawbacks. They don’t prevent stuns or charm. Also, you can’t sprint in combat. So you lose, for example, Orc sprint bonus and lose sprint bonus from medium armor.
Then it is not so easy to get to the speed cap. You lose 40% from sprint. So major+minor expedition gets so only to 145 (cap is 200). Celerity gets you to 155. Two swift gets you to169, which is not terrible but not all that fast. And, you have to sacrifice one red CP and 2 jewelryenchants.
This is why I tried Snowtreaders but pretty quickly dropped them as a solo player.
You see many players now almost always at max speed. Those players according to the above numbers are not using snowtreaders.

plenty of drawbacks as a solo for sure. groups though have snow treader users usually in 3 swift on top of having someone on rapids. benefits greatly outweigh any drawbacks in a group setting when you're constantly under soft cc pressure. I do think there are way more overtuned sets out there than boots. some groups still comp without them, and in a lot of cases its only the healers and support that have them. now find a group that doesn't run rush of agony.

Vulkunne · November 16

QB1 wrote: »

Snow treaders need to be removed from PvP or disabled if in a group.

Ball groups with every member kitted out in snow treaders is what makes them invincible; it's not cross healing. Fighting ball groups almost every night on PC-NA Greyhost and the groups that are invincible are the ones running snow treaders that can't be snared or immobilized. It's game-breaking. They sit inside keeps and farm zergs over and over and there is nothing that can be done about it until the whole server shows up.

The groups that aren't in snow treaders are actually manageable to fight because they can be slowed/immobilized/pulled away from the group to kill them.

Well great, I'm solo and have run these often. So now I have to settle for less and be inconvenienced, again, not just in gameplay but losing the value in the gear I'm using now.

Wonderful. Turn 'em off for groups then. I don't always use treaders, but they can be really helpful whenever bombers or ball groups try and lock me down. This is just.... something's gotta give with these ball groups. Either force everyone to join a ball group or stop breaking the game for everyone else to get at them. Take away the group buffs, take away the heal stacking.

Something's gotta give with them. No one can PvP because of them.

MincMincMinc · November 25

The problem with alot of these types of issues is that they made it a double trade off. You dont have to play the game and sprint, with the benefit of being immune. Its a double positive instead of a negative. A better design would be to eliminate sprint speed bonus while wearing snow treaders and make it so snow treaders immunity only works while paying for sprinting.

The balance point here is that players and groups cant have complete immunity while also having everyone spam skills that make them unkillable.

The next tier of the issue which i have pointed out for years is that the game has far too many movement speed buffs that are also too strong. Half of the movement speed buffs could instead be sprint speed buffs or simply cut in half. Especially now that everyone has major/minor/medium/swift/celerity......... Anyone can happily sit at around 170+% movement speed before sprint on a functional 1vX build. So sprint is near useless as a mechanic in most cases as a speed build will be at 200% without it.

Speed as a stat has not been adjusted since murkmire(2018) really when swift jewelry was reduced by 3% woah! Zos even ignored fixing speed when they did the major/minor changes. They knew major expedition was too high which is why in murkmire they cut the potion time by 1/3 instead of reducing the 30% down to 15% or 10% like they should have. So now modern day values are still not numerically correct because the standard is based on this terrible potion decision from 7+ years ago.

YandereGirlfriend · November 26

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The problem with alot of these types of issues is that they made it a double trade off. You dont have to play the game and sprint, with the benefit of being immune. Its a double positive instead of a negative. A better design would be to eliminate sprint speed bonus while wearing snow treaders and make it so snow treaders immunity only works while paying for sprinting.

The balance point here is that players and groups cant have complete immunity while also having everyone spam skills that make them unkillable.
The next tier of the issue which i have pointed out for years is that the game has far too many movement speed buffs that are also too strong. Half of the movement speed buffs could instead be sprint speed buffs or simply cut in half. Especially now that everyone has major/minor/medium/swift/celerity......... Anyone can happily sit at around 170+% movement speed before sprint on a functional 1vX build. So sprint is near useless as a mechanic in most cases as a speed build will be at 200% without it.

Speed as a stat has not been adjusted since murkmire(2018) really when swift jewelry was reduced by 3% woah! Zos even ignored fixing speed when they did the major/minor changes. They knew major expedition was too high which is why in murkmire they cut the potion time by 1/3 instead of reducing the 30% down to 15% or 10% like they should have. So now modern day values are still not numerically correct because the standard is based on this terrible potion decision from 7+ years ago.

Minor Expo used to be rare and basically a StamSorc monopoly (who paid for that luxury by having a lack of... basically anything else in terms of buffs; IIRC it was also only +10% at the time). But nowadays everyone has access to it without much hassle.

Similarly, Major Expo used to be rare before RAT made it ubiquitous.

That said, though, nobody likes mindless Snare and Immobilize spam and any action taken against skills like RAT or items like Treaders must be balanced with increasing the Soft-CC immunity window, ideally to match that of Hard-CC, which is both a reasonable duration and one that necessitates planning your tactics around instead of aimlessly spamming.