The future of ESO

Elitius · November 24

Hello everyone, first I appologize for my english since its not my native language, but if you like me love ESO and just want a game that will eventually be the best one out there. I have some few things I would like to discuss and I think I am not the only one having this feeling or experience of the game.

Topic 1 (Subclassing)
I love the idea of sub classing and I think many others do to, but the issue here I think is that it is not limited, like class identity is a big part of every MMO I played, but as of this moment its just feel like there is none and what happened is I see most people doing the same stuff and same builds and it really killed the variety we had to stand out. The solution for this is very simple, I am not saying we should remove sub classing, but the best thing would be if the sub classing skill were limited to 1 and not 2.

Why approach it this way you may think? Well it will make the class identity remain and provide that feeling of a playing a certain role within an MMO but yet still let you pick out 1 skill line from another class which is this amazing idea which I do really enjoy of sub classing, but as I said this should be limited to one skill line and not 2.

Topic 2 (Classes)
This game has now existed for many years, such as games as wow, FF, tibia among other games it is only natural for games that is in this situation to look over the classes, rework some skills and keep the class up to date, I want to point out I am not saying you should remake dragon knight or night blade, but what I am saying is you have the metrics, some skills are barley used or even touched and as I spoke out before variety to a broader community is key to keep the game interesting and fun so we're not just picking between 2 options skills such as these should have been reworked or buffed in some way to be more included into the game, otherwise its just an icon that really serves no purpose for us and that is sad since we're already limited as it is. This is also very important because as long as we follow this agenda we will never ever have a some what working class balance for people to enjoy all the different classes without having the feeling that I dont bring as much to the table as the other classes and we will be stuck with what 80% of the community will use since thats the "meta" and hear me out I know a game can never be truly balanced but if they are almost on pair with one another thats a huge goal right there.

Topic 3 (Buffs & Nerfs)
When we do get something fun or powerful, many games look at that thing and nerf it, it would be more nice since ESO have so many items that exists that also fill little or no function at all, Like all the sets from the base game, like out of 10 sets perhaps 1 is of use, maybe some rework to older sets or add perhaps like gathering or fishing attributes or anything so its not like ah yeah just another useless item that will serve no purpose what so ever. And that is not just for items even classes, like the focus should never be nerf this class because x and y, why not ok how can we improve our other classes to be up-to-date

I've also listed them in a order I feel like is more important, since the sub classing thing is something I think is better dealt with sooner than later, now I know alot of people dont hang out on these forums, but if you ask for opinions over discord, twitch and other social media, I get the feeling is some what mutual among the most and now ofcourse there will be people saying remove it all or keep it as it is, I just want a middle ground where it works for the people.

Best regards and hopefully we will have the best game out there one day

BardokRedSnow · November 24

I believe it is too late to limit subclassing to two classes, one additional line, too many people would be upset now that pandora's box has been opened. Retroactively taking away the ability to use 3 different class lines or arbitrarily making it harder to do so, its too late for that. Im very surprised they went this route so haphazardly in the first place but here we are.

What they still can do and what I hope more people ask for is to give added benefits to pure classing to balance things more. People who specialize in one class should have some form of mastery that would incentivize playing that way without nerfing or taking away anything from people who like to subclass.

Step one of this would be to unnerf the classes they nerfed to make subclassing more appealing. DK sustain for example doesn't need to be nerfed, warden sustain is far greater anyway.

Step two would be to consider adding something to pure classes unavailable when you subclass. Not just increased stats, that would be boring and also probably make subclassing obsolete, but instead maybe some sort of master ability/skill you could use like an alternate ult, or, let some of the skills, especially the least used skills in that class be something you can modify with scribing on top of or alternate to the typical morph associated.

That would be my idea moving forward to fix the issue of subclassing.

SneaK · November 24

To the point where there is no point in discussion anymore.

Rungar · November 24

i dont think any of those things will get players back to this game.

a radical content redesign, mainly combat, dungeons and overland might.

otherwise its a death spiral at this point.

Elitius · November 24

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I believe it is too late to limit subclassing to two classes, one additional line, too many people would be upset now that pandora's box has been opened. Retroactively taking away the ability to use 3 different class lines or arbitrarily making it harder to do so, its too late for that. Im very surprised they went this route so haphazardly in the first place but here we are.

What they still can do and what I hope more people ask for is to give added benefits to pure classing to balance things more. People who specialize in one class should have some form of mastery that would incentivize playing that way without nerfing or taking away anything from people who like to subclass.

Step one of this would be to unnerf the classes they nerfed to make subclassing more appealing. DK sustain for example doesn't need to be nerfed, warden sustain is far greater anyway.

Step two would be to consider adding something to pure classes unavailable when you subclass. Not just increased stats, that would be boring and also probably make subclassing obsolete, but instead maybe some sort of master ability/skill you could use like an alternate ult, or, let some of the skills, especially the least used skills in that class be something you can modify with scribing on top of or alternate to the typical morph associated.

That would be my idea moving forward to fix the issue of subclassing.

I dont mean we should limit it to 2 classes, what I am saying is sorry for my english, you may only pick 1 skill line from another class and thats it, So if you are a NB you may only pick 1 skill from another class thats it no more and the other 2 will always remain from the class you started out with.

Thats also one way to go about it, very interesting perspective to go about it as well, that could also be a thing that the main class have buffed skills over the one you pick from other classes, like anything to make the pure class stand out in some way well it has to be reasonable as well..

Well that was my point earlier that instead of nerfing a certain class because of x and y, it is better to buff other classes as well to make them more appealing.

I dont know about step 2 because I do still belive a middle ground could be reached over here its not impossible, I've seen games do more radical changes than this.

But very nice input.

Last'One · November 24

Topic 1 Subclassing
Simple: for every skill you use outside your class, you lose X% damage.
If we use 2% as an example, running a full skill line from another class would make you lose 10% of your total DPS.

NOTE:

Why:
A Templar using Necromancer skills offends the Aedra that grant their light.
They punish you with a 2% damage reduction per foreign skill.

"Meridia refuses to empower those who consort with death magic."

Topic 2 Classes
Classes should feel unique, with their own skills and passives. Pure classes must be stronger than any hybrid combination.

Topic 3 Buffs & Nerfs
Remove DPS sharing and logs from the game permanently. Then ZoS can buff or nerf any skill they want, and no one will notice on a general level.

The Future of ESO
It’s gonna be dark, lonely, and more dead than Oakensoul…

Destai · November 24

I was thinking about this, the future of ESO isn't looking promising for me.

For me, its future isn't dependent on fixing issues with Cyrodiil, or subclassing, or even general combat. The issue with ESO is its fundamental gameplay loop. Even if ZOS somehow fixed all of the major issues we talk about today, even if they pushed out a new class, whatever the change is, I'd just be playing that through the current gameplay loop.

The stories and zones are increasingly thin. The most "updates" we see are time limited events where we get fragments towards something like a mount or outfit, meanwhile similar rewards are tucked into crown crates. If we do get a new zone, it's more-or-less the same thing as the last 7. And the only thing to do with its dailies are roll the dice to see if I can get a motif page for a style that I can conveniently spend $40 the next time it shows up in the crown store. If I create a new character, I have to log in for 180 days to be sure that my mount is fully upgraded. This whole game has become a system of time-gated busy work.

Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm just burned out, I dunno. I haven't played much this year, especially after seeing how Solstice fared. After that release flopped for me, I decided to take a breather and go to GW2 on a whim. The difference has been staggering. The zones are fun. There's oodles of little activities. Rhythm games, jumping puzzles, account wide benefits like Masteries. Even their version of crown crates, I can earn the content just by playing. The zone events are mind blowing and foster a sense of community. Even the OG zones from 13 years ago are still active.

I love ESO, but they really gotta figure something out. I can't be the only one who feels like the "fun factor" is gone.

BardokRedSnow · November 24

Elitius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I believe it is too late to limit subclassing to two classes, one additional line, too many people would be upset now that pandora's box has been opened. Retroactively taking away the ability to use 3 different class lines or arbitrarily making it harder to do so, its too late for that. Im very surprised they went this route so haphazardly in the first place but here we are.

What they still can do and what I hope more people ask for is to give added benefits to pure classing to balance things more. People who specialize in one class should have some form of mastery that would incentivize playing that way without nerfing or taking away anything from people who like to subclass.

Step one of this would be to unnerf the classes they nerfed to make subclassing more appealing. DK sustain for example doesn't need to be nerfed, warden sustain is far greater anyway.

Step two would be to consider adding something to pure classes unavailable when you subclass. Not just increased stats, that would be boring and also probably make subclassing obsolete, but instead maybe some sort of master ability/skill you could use like an alternate ult, or, let some of the skills, especially the least used skills in that class be something you can modify with scribing on top of or alternate to the typical morph associated.

That would be my idea moving forward to fix the issue of subclassing.

I dont mean we should limit it to 2 classes, what I am saying is sorry for my english, you may only pick 1 skill line from another class and thats it, So if you are a NB you may only pick 1 skill from another class thats it no more and the other 2 will always remain from the class you started out with.

Thats also one way to go about it, very interesting perspective to go about it as well, that could also be a thing that the main class have buffed skills over the one you pick from other classes, like anything to make the pure class stand out in some way well it has to be reasonable as well..

Well that was my point earlier that instead of nerfing a certain class because of x and y, it is better to buff other classes as well to make them more appealing.

I dont know about step 2 because I do still belive a middle ground could be reached over here its not impossible, I've seen games do more radical changes than this.

But very nice input.

My wording was funny, sorry about that. I knew you meant only one skill line included. Thats how it should have been from the start, its just probably too late to implement now.

I was torn because originally I hated ESO's idea of classes because it went against the tes feel of the main series so much. There were "classes" before but it was something you could go against and customize. Really it was just warrior esque, mage esque or rogue esque character with certain abilities overlapping on them all depending how you wanted to play, and you could always train them up more later, it was just harder to level skills you didnt make your primary skills. Classes were really just a guideline.

But this is an mmo, and after understanding and getting used to the difference, its pretty obvious how important class identity is to the game for long term players to keep interest. People standing out is important. Mixing magicka and stamina for hybrid playing was the beginning of making everything too homogeneous imo though there was an argument for it. The subclassing with no emphasis on class mastery beyond a script signature ability is a mistake, one I hope they fix in the near future.

Rungar · November 25

thats not the way i remember it. Nobody ever gave a crap about class identity. Whatever worked the best was used. If you had to change class you did that. Your power changed with patches and people changed classes to adapt to this. Identity is a buzzword with no substance. No one cared unless their class went to the bottom of the list at which point they switched the the powerful class of the patch.

same thing for hybridization/homogenization, another buzzword. Everyone was stamina based and never used any class skills, only weapon skills. Every class had pretty much the same skills slotted. It was completely lame. Hybridization actually let you use your class skills. Literally the inverse of the so called identity thing.

and finally subclassing which gave everyone the freedom to play how they want, a core ideal of the game. All of a sudden your former class means something like its somehow a part of who you are like other identity insanity. it isnt.

everyone now has the freedom to choose what combination they want but unfortunately the game only supports dps so that freedom isnt worth that much and everyone rightly chooses the easiest path to avoid using the shoddy combat system the way it was designed.

eso has no future because they didnt invest in and plan one for it. They were hoping to get the other game out obviously at the cost of this one and they only changed stance on this because they dont have a choice anymore. They can still turn it around, but that wont happen doing the things they always done.

StihlReign · November 25

Rungar wrote: »

thats not the way i remember it. Nobody ever gave a crap about class identity. Whatever worked the best was used. If you had to change class you did that. Your power changed with patches and people changed classes to adapt to this. Identity is a buzzword with no substance. No one cared unless their class went to the bottom of the list at which point they switched the the powerful class of the patch.

same thing for hybridization/homogenization, another buzzword. Everyone was stamina based and never used any class skills, only weapon skills. Every class had pretty much the same skills slotted. It was completely lame. Hybridization actually let you use your class skills. Literally the inverse of the so called identity thing.

and finally subclassing which gave everyone the freedom to play how they want, a core ideal of the game. All of a sudden your former class means something like its somehow a part of who you are like other identity insanity. it isnt.

everyone now has the freedom to choose what combination they want but unfortunately the game only supports dps so that freedom isnt worth that much and everyone rightly chooses the easiest path to avoid using the shoddy combat system the way it was designed.

eso has no future because they didnt invest in and plan one for it. They were hoping to get the other game out obviously at the cost of this one and they only changed stance on this because they dont have a choice anymore. They can still turn it around, but that wont happen doing the things they always done.

None of this is true for me but I understand a lot of folks play the game this way. FOMO is and has been, a large part of how ESO moves forward and makes money. The current plan doesn't feel like they think they need to turn anything around. Everything they give us has been in planning for months...we're paying for the future, today.

BardokRedSnow · November 25

Rungar wrote: »

thats not the way i remember it. Nobody ever gave a crap about class identity. Whatever worked the best was used. If you had to change class you did that. Your power changed with patches and people changed classes to adapt to this. Identity is a buzzword with no substance. No one cared unless their class went to the bottom of the list at which point they switched the the powerful class of the patch.

same thing for hybridization/homogenization, another buzzword. Everyone was stamina based and never used any class skills, only weapon skills. Every class had pretty much the same skills slotted. It was completely lame. Hybridization actually let you use your class skills. Literally the inverse of the so called identity thing.

and finally subclassing which gave everyone the freedom to play how they want, a core ideal of the game. All of a sudden your former class means something like its somehow a part of who you are like other identity insanity. it isnt.

everyone now has the freedom to choose what combination they want but unfortunately the game only supports dps so that freedom isnt worth that much and everyone rightly chooses the easiest path to avoid using the shoddy combat system the way it was designed.

eso has no future because they didnt invest in and plan one for it. They were hoping to get the other game out obviously at the cost of this one and they only changed stance on this because they dont have a choice anymore. They can still turn it around, but that wont happen doing the things they always done.

Been a Nord DK main since the game had the beta, I've made other classes and they ended up crafting toons. Only other class that actually was gonna see some play was necromancer and then they nerfed it as soon as i finished leveling it lol, so yea players definitely care about class identity, Im not the only one that fell in love with one class and pretty much stuck to it.

I do however agree with the idea that stam/mag hybridization was good for the game, because before, Mag DK for instance was king in 1v1s because DK's mag abilities for burst heal were obviously better, plus raw dps, and if you were a DK not using fossilize you were big time missing out. Orc stam DK had a huge advantage in 1v1s though for the weapon damage passive, which was lessened when zos gave everyone across the board a damage increase.

Lots of small changes they made to close the gap between stam and mag, like the stam/mag whip change too. I do think that we're in a better spot now than before.

Subclassing in it of itself isnt bad either, its the implementation thats bad, as well as no emphasis on class mastery for those who do want to pure DK or pure whatever else. There's no actual reason to do that anymore.

playsforfun · November 25

I'd like to see them expand on classes like a second form with new class skills that can not be used in subclassing this would bring balance to those that would like to play pure class based builds

Elvenheart · November 25

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

thats not the way i remember it. Nobody ever gave a crap about class identity. Whatever worked the best was used. If you had to change class you did that. Your power changed with patches and people changed classes to adapt to this. Identity is a buzzword with no substance. No one cared unless their class went to the bottom of the list at which point they switched the the powerful class of the patch.

same thing for hybridization/homogenization, another buzzword. Everyone was stamina based and never used any class skills, only weapon skills. Every class had pretty much the same skills slotted. It was completely lame. Hybridization actually let you use your class skills. Literally the inverse of the so called identity thing.

and finally subclassing which gave everyone the freedom to play how they want, a core ideal of the game. All of a sudden your former class means something like its somehow a part of who you are like other identity insanity. it isnt.

everyone now has the freedom to choose what combination they want but unfortunately the game only supports dps so that freedom isnt worth that much and everyone rightly chooses the easiest path to avoid using the shoddy combat system the way it was designed.

eso has no future because they didnt invest in and plan one for it. They were hoping to get the other game out obviously at the cost of this one and they only changed stance on this because they dont have a choice anymore. They can still turn it around, but that wont happen doing the things they always done.

Been a Nord DK main since the game had the beta, I've made other classes and they ended up crafting toons. Only other class that actually was gonna see some play was necromancer and then they nerfed it as soon as i finished leveling it lol, so yea players definitely care about class identity, Im not the only one that fell in love with one class and pretty much stuck to it.

I do however agree with the idea that stam/mag hybridization was good for the game, because before, Mag DK for instance was king in 1v1s because DK's mag abilities for burst heal were obviously better, plus raw dps, and if you were a DK not using fossilize you were big time missing out. Orc stam DK had a huge advantage in 1v1s though for the weapon damage passive, which was lessened when zos gave everyone across the board a damage increase.

Lots of small changes they made to close the gap between stam and mag, like the stam/mag whip change too. I do think that we're in a better spot now than before.

Subclassing in it of itself isnt bad either, its the implementation thats bad, as well as no emphasis on class mastery for those who do want to pure DK or pure whatever else. There's no actual reason to do that anymore.

I like the words you used, class mastery. They need a Class Mastery system that makes pure classes more viable again, maybe not better than Subclassing, but just as good so it will be an equal option. And they need to continue the Scribing system with class skills, preferably in Winterhold in the next expansion/content pass. ☺️

moderatelyfatman · 12:24AM

@Elitius @BardokRedSnow
It's interesting to compare ESO with what happened with New World to see where the future lies.

A quick look at steam charts in NW showed that the game was far more seasonal, with massive increases (sometimes quadrupling) of the player population following new chapters followed by a massive decline a month or two later. ESO in contrast tends to fluctuate but has a much higher and more stable baseline.

It looks like the regulars is what is keeping ESO alive. These are people who aren't compulsively farming the new content before leaving to chase the next shiny new toy. I'd put the housing enthusiasts, fashionistas (love them) as well as the 'casual' player who logs in for an hour or two every night and does all their dailies over a beer or six.

And this is where I think the future of PvP is brighter than most people think: back when things were good, PvPers were amongst the most regular players. I think someone at ZOS has realised that a healthy PvP game will provide them with a steady playerbase that will get them through the lean times between new content. I think Vengeance is a (mislead) attempt to get casual players to spend an hour or two in Cyrodiil.

BardokRedSnow · 12:37AM

Elvenheart wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

thats not the way i remember it. Nobody ever gave a crap about class identity. Whatever worked the best was used. If you had to change class you did that. Your power changed with patches and people changed classes to adapt to this. Identity is a buzzword with no substance. No one cared unless their class went to the bottom of the list at which point they switched the the powerful class of the patch.

same thing for hybridization/homogenization, another buzzword. Everyone was stamina based and never used any class skills, only weapon skills. Every class had pretty much the same skills slotted. It was completely lame. Hybridization actually let you use your class skills. Literally the inverse of the so called identity thing.

and finally subclassing which gave everyone the freedom to play how they want, a core ideal of the game. All of a sudden your former class means something like its somehow a part of who you are like other identity insanity. it isnt.

everyone now has the freedom to choose what combination they want but unfortunately the game only supports dps so that freedom isnt worth that much and everyone rightly chooses the easiest path to avoid using the shoddy combat system the way it was designed.

eso has no future because they didnt invest in and plan one for it. They were hoping to get the other game out obviously at the cost of this one and they only changed stance on this because they dont have a choice anymore. They can still turn it around, but that wont happen doing the things they always done.

Been a Nord DK main since the game had the beta, I've made other classes and they ended up crafting toons. Only other class that actually was gonna see some play was necromancer and then they nerfed it as soon as i finished leveling it lol, so yea players definitely care about class identity, Im not the only one that fell in love with one class and pretty much stuck to it.

I do however agree with the idea that stam/mag hybridization was good for the game, because before, Mag DK for instance was king in 1v1s because DK's mag abilities for burst heal were obviously better, plus raw dps, and if you were a DK not using fossilize you were big time missing out. Orc stam DK had a huge advantage in 1v1s though for the weapon damage passive, which was lessened when zos gave everyone across the board a damage increase.

Lots of small changes they made to close the gap between stam and mag, like the stam/mag whip change too. I do think that we're in a better spot now than before.

Subclassing in it of itself isnt bad either, its the implementation thats bad, as well as no emphasis on class mastery for those who do want to pure DK or pure whatever else. There's no actual reason to do that anymore.

I like the words you used, class mastery. They need a Class Mastery system that makes pure classes more viable again, maybe not better than Subclassing, but just as good so it will be an equal option. And they need to continue the Scribing system with class skills, preferably in Winterhold in the next expansion/content pass. ☺️

Yes brother, thats exactly what I am hoping for, especially the Winterhold dlc!

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

@Elitius @BardokRedSnow
It's interesting to compare ESO with what happened with New World to see where the future lies.

A quick look at steam charts in NW showed that the game was far more seasonal, with massive increases (sometimes quadrupling) of the player population following new chapters followed by a massive decline a month or two later. ESO in contrast tends to fluctuate but has a much higher and more stable baseline.

It looks like the regulars is what is keeping ESO alive. These are people who aren't compulsively farming the new content before leaving to chase the next shiny new toy. I'd put the housing enthusiasts, fashionistas (love them) as well as the 'casual' player who logs in for an hour or two every night and does all their dailies over a beer or six.

And this is where I think the future of PvP is brighter than most people think: back when things were good, PvPers were amongst the most regular players. I think someone at ZOS has realised that a healthy PvP game will provide them with a steady playerbase that will get them through the lean times between new content. I think Vengeance is a (mislead) attempt to get casual players to spend an hour or two in Cyrodiil.

Best case scenario I guess is they close all other campaigns except a vengeance campaign and greyhost, alongside this third new smaller cyrodiil map. I would be satisfied with that, tbh it might benefit greyhost, as I still don't believe in PCNA most greyhost players want vengeance, and many will get bored and flock greyhost instead of being in ravenwatch or blackreach zerging empty keeps.

Guess time will tell.