Shield - Blocking all directions

BSGDevastator · May 2014

Hello fellow ESO-Gamers!

I have run into a small problem yesterday. Before you quit reading and flaming me, please know that this isn't supposed to be a QQ Thread, but rather a thread where I want some information.

Anyways, I'm currently a VR1 Nightblade with a nice Skill called Surprise Attack which stuns enemies if casted out of stealth / invisibility. I never had any real problems as a NB Vampire (except the broken Passives, but w/e).

However yesterday, something really bothered me. I was fighting out a 1v1 vs. a VR7 Templar with Shield and Sword. Now, after my Assassination failed, I had to engage into some 1v1 Combat, which I would've probably (I say probably) won, if it wasn't for a weird concept.

After he got out of my stun, he obviously held up his shield. Due to logical thinking, I thought I could go invisible, get behind him and stun him where his shield can't block me. Well, wrong. Although I came from behind, his shield still blocked me off. Needless to say I was dead meat. Is that intended? Because it seems pretty surreal. If it was a magic spell which blocks off everything around you, sure, I could understand that.

I've experienced a similar problem when trying to kill Mage-NPC in Cyrodiil. When they cast their Icewall, I cannot hit them with ranged attacks. No matter where I stand. I can literally stand right beside them, while their wall isn't even between us and still hit the wall.

Is that going to get fixed? Any informations?

Greetings
Narakuvera

htoncic · May 2014

You have no problem that you can go invisible, but blocking in all directions is surreal? Did you really get to vr1 without knowing this?

Anyway, yeah, working as intended.

Squishy · May 2014

OP has a point on the logic of things, makes no sense to be able to block an attack from behind

.

Although I was aware of this, and used it in PVE many times, it does make no sense at all, and it is not mentioned anywhere as far as I know, so a legit question from the OP imo.

BSGDevastator · May 2014

htoncic wrote: »

You have no problem that you can go invisible, but blocking in all directions is surreal? Did you really get to vr1 without knowing this?

Anyway, yeah, working as intended.

Yeah I didn't know that. I've always played DW and Bow. By the way, you're comparing Invisibility with this weird blocking concept.

Invisibility can be countered by magelight / AOE Snare / AOE Damage. Blocking cannot be countered in any way (atleast not by something I know), since it blocks even CC.

You are not trying to understand the problem behind this. What you try is to defend (probably) your gameplay, since, I assume, you use Shield and Sword.

If you really want to compare it with something, then compare shield to weapon:

Can you attack in all directions at once? No, you cant.

The sole reason of balancing a skill is to solve its lack of counterplay (example: Vampire Ult had no counterplay because of heals, thus: NERF).

I did not say ABSENCE of counterplay. I said LACK of counterplay.

Anyways, it's not like it's a major problem to me. I just don't see a reason behind this concept. If one could give me a valid explanation as why the block concept is like that, I'm ready to hear it.

Is there some ancient magic protecting the wielder of a shield, surrounding him with a forcefield? If not, if it's just an ordinary shield, then I see no reason for it to block everything 360° around the wielder.

Seroczynski · May 2014

Aww damn, as a Dragonknight I have to say it would be much cooler if you had to do a little extra while blocking, so yeah I say it would be logical you only block 180 degrees in frondt of you while blocking.

BSGDevastator · May 2014

Seroczynski wrote: »

Aww damn, as a Dragonknight I have to say it would be much cooler if you had to do a little extra while blocking, so yeah I say it would be logical you only block 180 degrees in frond of you while blocking.

That would be a great solution. I mean, you could still reach that 360° if you are lucky (spinning around like a moron while shielding). Or you do it like a normal person and try to guess from where the assassin is coming.

It feels a little sluggish if you just point your shield somewhere and block everything. Combat would get more interesting if you would actually have to point it into the right direction. Good players would still be able to block every single projectile / attack (except if 100 attacks are coming at the same time).

Kililin · May 2014

I think it is due to
a. the game just estimates where you are
b. the game is very very imprecise with you facing
therefor it would be really hard to use blocking correct if it would only block in front.
(explanation what i mean with b.: you can try it out with different weapons, i was using a inferno staff. if i start to charge a heavy attack, than instantly change my crosshair, my character will turn on fully charged attack and shoot the bolt somewhere in between. how my facing is inbetween is quite unspecified, i tried to cast instant spells while it was charging and it was not predictable where they would go.)

Of course this is just my theory, could be that it works better for others.

BSGDevastator · May 2014

Kililin wrote: »

I think it is due to
a. the game just estimates where you are
b. the game is very very imprecise with you facing
therefor it would be really hard to use blocking correct if it would only block in front.
(explanation what i mean with b.: you can try it out with different weapons, i was using a inferno staff. if i start to charge a heavy attack, than instantly change my crosshair, my character will turn on fully charged attack and shoot the bolt somewhere in between. how my facing is inbetween is quite unspecified, i tried to cast instant spells while it was charging and it was not predictable where they would go.)

Of course this is just my theory, could be that it works better for others.

Might be. It's easier to program it to just block everything rather than just one direction. I think they just took the easier way and programmed alot of things this way.

Nidwin · May 2014

Bad design or a bug. Shield should only give frontal block and not 360°
This should be changed or fixed asap.

Of course our S&B Elite PRO's are going to disagree and QQ if ZOS fixes this absurdity.

This time I've to agree with our brah Kalvix. You can't kill a tank who has a shield, nope you just can't. But here it's not because of rock scissors paper but because of ...

Anastasia · May 2014

Nidwin wrote: »

Bad design or a bug. Shield should only give frontal block and not 360°
This should be changed or fixed asap.

Of course our S&B Elite PRO's are going to disagree and QQ if ZOS fixes this absurdity.

This time I've to agree with our brah Kalvix. You can't kill a tank who has a shield, nope you just can't. But here it's not because of rock scissors paper but because of ...

Is it not true that we can use a 'block' with any weapon...?

*Imagines two awesom NB's going at it invis-ing and blocking/attacking back and forth. Oh, wait, there is no dueling here ;o/

Kililin · May 2014

Anastasia wrote: »

Nidwin wrote: »

Bad design or a bug. Shield should only give frontal block and not 360°
This should be changed or fixed asap.

Of course our S&B Elite PRO's are going to disagree and QQ if ZOS fixes this absurdity.

This time I've to agree with our brah Kalvix. You can't kill a tank who has a shield, nope you just can't. But here it's not because of rock scissors paper but because of ...

Is it not true that we can use a 'block' with any weapon...?

*Imagines two awesom NB's going at it invis-ing and blocking/attacking back and forth. Oh, wait, there is no dueling here ;o/

But tank spec blocks way more and will likely not run out of stamina due to blocking.

htoncic · May 2014

BSGDevastator wrote: »

htoncic wrote: »

You have no problem that you can go invisible, but blocking in all directions is surreal? Did you really get to vr1 without knowing this?

Anyway, yeah, working as intended.

Yeah I didn't know that. I've always played DW and Bow. By the way, you're comparing Invisibility with this weird blocking concept.

Invisibility can be countered by magelight / AOE Snare / AOE Damage. Blocking cannot be countered in any way (atleast not by something I know), since it blocks even CC.

You are not trying to understand the problem behind this. What you try is to defend (probably) your gameplay, since, I assume, you use Shield and Sword.

If you really want to compare it with something, then compare shield to weapon:

Can you attack in all directions at once? No, you cant.

The sole reason of balancing a skill is to solve its lack of counterplay (example: Vampire Ult had no counterplay because of heals, thus: NERF).

I did not say ABSENCE of counterplay. I said LACK of counterplay.

Anyways, it's not like it's a major problem to me. I just don't see a reason behind this concept. If one could give me a valid explanation as why the block concept is like that, I'm ready to hear it.

Is there some ancient magic protecting the wielder of a shield, surrounding him with a forcefield? If not, if it's just an ordinary shield, then I see no reason for it to block everything 360° around the wielder.

No, I use staves. And I block with them. You play DW and Bow? You can block with those, too. In all directions. Basic game mechanics, people, play through the tutorial if you're unsure how the game works.

I wasn't defending anything, the game has it's rules and they apply the same to everyone, thus, they are fine. My point was that in your OP, you were using common sense and real world logic to argue that this kind of blocking shouldn't be possible. And in that same post, you mentioned you went invisible, as if invisibility was perfectly fine according to that same common sense and real world logic.

Counterplay already exists, since everyone can block regardless of what weapon they use.

Since you like referring to ancient magic, imagine that anyone holding down RMB gets an invisible anciently magical sphere around them which blocks attacks. There, problem solved.

BSGDevastator · May 2014

htoncic wrote: »

BSGDevastator wrote: »

htoncic wrote: »

You have no problem that you can go invisible, but blocking in all directions is surreal? Did you really get to vr1 without knowing this?

Anyway, yeah, working as intended.

Yeah I didn't know that. I've always played DW and Bow. By the way, you're comparing Invisibility with this weird blocking concept.

Invisibility can be countered by magelight / AOE Snare / AOE Damage. Blocking cannot be countered in any way (atleast not by something I know), since it blocks even CC.

You are not trying to understand the problem behind this. What you try is to defend (probably) your gameplay, since, I assume, you use Shield and Sword.

If you really want to compare it with something, then compare shield to weapon:

Can you attack in all directions at once? No, you cant.

The sole reason of balancing a skill is to solve its lack of counterplay (example: Vampire Ult had no counterplay because of heals, thus: NERF).

I did not say ABSENCE of counterplay. I said LACK of counterplay.

Anyways, it's not like it's a major problem to me. I just don't see a reason behind this concept. If one could give me a valid explanation as why the block concept is like that, I'm ready to hear it.

Is there some ancient magic protecting the wielder of a shield, surrounding him with a forcefield? If not, if it's just an ordinary shield, then I see no reason for it to block everything 360° around the wielder.

No, I use staves. And I block with them. You play DW and Bow? You can block with those, too. In all directions. Basic game mechanics, people, play through the tutorial if you're unsure how the game works.

I wasn't defending anything, the game has it's rules and they apply the same to everyone, thus, they are fine. My point was that in your OP, you were using common sense and real world logic to argue that this kind of blocking shouldn't be possible. And in that same post, you mentioned you went invisible, as if invisibility was perfectly fine according to that same common sense and real world logic.

Counterplay already exists, since everyone can block regardless of what weapon they use.

Since you like referring to ancient magic, imagine that anyone holding down RMB gets an invisible anciently magical sphere around them which blocks attacks. There, problem solved.

I don't think you understood my post completely. It does not matter if you block with swords, bows, whatever. Nothing should block 360° without a reason. The invisibility in Nightblade is perfectly fine since it's part of the class. However, blocking has no background behind it. It's not a skill, it's a mechanic. I did not read anything in the lore about mighty warriors of Tamriel who could block anything coming at them.

I could agree with that mechanic if they solved it like this (for example):
Every player has a Passive (which is given at level 1 without wasting a skillpoint) called "Mighty Warrior of Tamriel". The passive says "Since ancient ways, warriors have used a spell to increase their abilities to block and thus are granted a shield which surrounds them while blocking, suppressing all attacks coming at them".

Something like that. I do not see, why blocking should be so surreal without giving a honest hint as why it is that way. Now it just looks like lazyness on the programmers side.

BSGDevastator · May 2014

htoncic wrote: »

Counterplay already exists, since everyone can block regardless of what weapon they use.

By the way, that sentence here is absolutely out of logic. Blocking isn't counterplay vs. blocking. It does not matter if you block with a sword, bow or a shield. Blocking should never block 360° without a specified reason.

A possible counterplay could be a Shieldbreaker skill which breaks through the block for 2sec or something. That would be a counterplay.

I currently do not know about anything that can break a block, so in case there is actually nothing to break a block, then there is no counterplay at the moment.

Edit: Corrected spelling mistake

BSGDevastator · May 2014

And it is not just a "rule of the game". It does not make sense, not even in a fantasy world, since these are only regular weapons without some spells on them which allow 360° blocking.

Kililin · May 2014

I think we should, at first, establish why blocking is a problem in the current implementation.

OP does not describe a problem, since historically tank builds are the counter to stealth builds. This is good imo, not a problem.

Counter to blocking is movement.

BSGDevastator · May 2014

Kililin wrote: »

I think we should, at first, establish why blocking is a problem in the current implementation.

OP does not describe a problem, since historically tank builds are the counter to stealth builds. This is good imo, not a problem.

Counter to blocking is movement.

Nonono, you don't understand me. It's not about the mechanic itself. Blocking itself is completely fine, it just seemed absurd to me that anything can block in a 360° degree without any special spells / passives. Without these non-existing spells, the Gear used to block is just regular gear. I do not see a reason why regular gear should have that feature.

Aenima_pt · May 2014

Yes nerf the Tanks, its shield bash now is shield block... then when ur cloth and leather users just die in seconds in a VR group dungeons, because your tank, well also dies in seconds when surronded by mobs and shield block dont work, i wanna see who cryes...

Oh wait, another post crying about the PVP part, forgeting that 90% of the game is PVE. -_-

BSGDevastator · May 2014

Aenima_pt wrote: »

Yes nerf the Tanks, its shield bash now is shield block... then when ur cloth and leather users just die in seconds in a VR group dungeons because ur tank, well also dies in seconds when surronded by mobs and shield block dont work... i wanna see...

Oh wait, another post crying about the PVP part, forgeting that 90% of the game is PVE.

I can read a few things out of your answer:
-You are a tanky Shield-bash abuser
-You are blind towards opinions that differentiate from yours
-You didn't read my post correctly

I explained it about 3-4 times in my post now. Go and have a look at my comments and search for the word "reason".

Aenima_pt · May 2014

BSGDevastator wrote: »

Aenima_pt wrote: »

Yes nerf the Tanks, its shield bash now is shield block... then when ur cloth and leather users just die in seconds in a VR group dungeons because ur tank, well also dies in seconds when surronded by mobs and shield block dont work... i wanna see...

Oh wait, another post crying about the PVP part, forgeting that 90% of the game is PVE.

I can read a few things out of your answer:
-You are a tanky Shield-bash abuser
-You are blind towards opinions that differentiate from yours
-You didn't read my post correctly

I explained it about 3-4 times in my post now. Go and have a look at my comments and search for the word "reason".

I am a PVE Tank. PERIOD. Guess you just can read what is convenint to you.

I use block (and need to use) to keep myself alive so the boss or gank mobs can keep attacking me and dont 1 hit kill my group mates in VR dungeons. I wonder how many VR group dungeons have you done.

Wanna talk about logics? how about the homing spells and arrows? Do they have a heat dectector that follow you no matter you try to dodge them? How about ur vanish skill that you can just keep using it even if in logic after ur being spoted you should not be able to use it again?

This is the way the game was designed and is working as intended.

Is because of the constant nerfs that other MMOs die. This is not a PVP only game, most part of the content is PVE, every nerf sugestion i see here is about someone crying that he cant beat some type of class and wants things changed.

And if i was not clear enough, IM A PVE TANK. PVP can go to oblivion and stay there with all the crybabies.

Lickyo · May 2014

lol the person above me doesn't read at all.

Lox · May 2014

So am I right in saying .... as long as there was a bit of text somewhere that said blocking is 360 degrees (due to magic, skill whatever) you would be absolutely fine with the mechanic as it is?

BSGDevastator · May 2014

Aenima_pt wrote: »

BSGDevastator wrote: »

Aenima_pt wrote: »

Yes nerf the Tanks, its shield bash now is shield block... then when ur cloth and leather users just die in seconds in a VR group dungeons because ur tank, well also dies in seconds when surronded by mobs and shield block dont work... i wanna see...

Oh wait, another post crying about the PVP part, forgeting that 90% of the game is PVE.

I can read a few things out of your answer:
-You are a tanky Shield-bash abuser
-You are blind towards opinions that differentiate from yours
-You didn't read my post correctly

I explained it about 3-4 times in my post now. Go and have a look at my comments and search for the word "reason".

I am a PVE Tank. PERIOD. Guess you just can read what is convenint to you.

I use block (and need to use) to keep myself alive so the boss or gank mobs can keep attacking me and dont 1 hit kill my group mates in VR dungeons. I wonder how many VR group dungeons have you done.

Wanna talk about logics? how about the homing spells and arrows? Do they have a heat dectector that follow you no matter you try to dodge them? How about ur vanish skill that you can just keep using it even if in logic after ur being spoted you should not be able to use it again?

This is the way the game was designed and is working as intended.

Is because of the constant nerfs that other MMOs die. This is not a PVP only game, most part of the content is PVE, every nerf sugestion i see here is about someone crying that he cant beat some type of class and wants things changed.

And if i was not clear enought, IM A PVE TANK. PVP can go to oblivion and stay there with all the crybabies.

Ofc, the removal of the 360° block would make VR Dungeons a little harder, but it would still be interesting. I am however not saying they should completely remove the 360° block thing. I'm just missing an explanation here. A passive, some part in the lore, something that explains as why we are able to block everything from all sides.

The heat detector thing is actually a very good argument and really justifies the 360° block. I didn't think about that.

Everyone uses the Invisibility to argue. That is something completely different. It is a skill for a class, not a mechanic.

I would have some ideas to fix this. Like a passive, allowing you to block 360° from any non-player but only block 180° against players. The description could sound like "Blablabla ancient warrior technique to hold off monsters blablabla, however since everyone uses this technique, every weapon got enchanted on breakin through this barrier, blablabla"¨

Anyways you got some pretty good arguments for the Pro - Side.

Lox · May 2014

If they were to implement 360 NPC / 180 for players then they would also have to implement collision detection for all players, otherwise it is far too easy to get around the angle limitations.

Unfortunately, the inherent problems with player collision detection (griefing, blocking doors / content etc) far outweighs any reason to implement it in my opinion.

BSGDevastator · May 2014

Lox wrote: »

So am I right in saying .... as long as there was a bit of text somewhere that said blocking is 360 degrees (due to magic, skill whatever) you would be absolutely fine with the mechanic as it is?

Absolutely. I got killed because I didn't know that is possible and I would've probably gotten killed more if I didn't post that here because I would've thought that's only a bug. Any player that did not experience this 360° block once does not know it exists and will therefore get frustrated if he dies because of something like that.

Squishy · May 2014

Lox wrote: »

Unfortunately, the inherent problems with player collision detection (griefing, blocking doors / content etc) far outweighs any reason to implement it in my opinion.

Agreed, but SO MANY bot countermeasures options would open up, I'll just go drool at the ideas in my corner : - ).

Kililin · May 2014

also if you think about it 180°block would lead to *** circle strafing extravaganza.
making blocking totally useless, or rather useless in melee on range it would be usable more or less, but you could be kited forever.

BSGDevastator · May 2014

Kililin wrote: »

also if you think about it 180°block would lead to *** circle strafing extravaganza.
making blocking totally useless, or rather useless in melee on range it would be usable more or less, but you could be kited forever.

Wrong. Kiting forces you to walk (more or less) straight away from your target to be successful, thus beeing easy to block. If you would try to kite while walking in a circle, the distance would not increase fast enough, thus the shield wearer is able to attack.

BSGDevastator · May 2014

Lox wrote: »

If they were to implement 360 NPC / 180 for players then they would also have to implement collision detection for all players, otherwise it is far too easy to get around the angle limitations.

Unfortunately, the inherent problems with player collision detection (griefing, blocking doors / content etc) far outweighs any reason to implement it in my opinion.

Well that's true. IMO this game should not have a lock system at all, just like in Skyrim. Ofc that is hard to implement and bad Players would cry, but that's a whole different story I dont want to talk about in this thread.

It seems like this feature is a little bit more complex than I thought..

Kililin · May 2014

BSGDevastator wrote: »

Kililin wrote: »

also if you think about it 180°block would lead to *** circle strafing extravaganza.
making blocking totally useless, or rather useless in melee on range it would be usable more or less, but you could be kited forever.

Wrong. Kiting forces you to walk (more or less) straight away from your target to be successful, thus beeing easy to block. If you would try to kite while walking in a circle, the distance would not increase fast enough, thus the shield wearer is able to attack.

yeah you could block but never kill the kiter, therefor be kited forever, just as i said

Lox · May 2014

BSGDevastator wrote: »

Lox wrote: »

If they were to implement 360 NPC / 180 for players then they would also have to implement collision detection for all players, otherwise it is far too easy to get around the angle limitations.

Unfortunately, the inherent problems with player collision detection (griefing, blocking doors / content etc) far outweighs any reason to implement it in my opinion.

Well that's true. IMO this game should not have a lock system at all, just like in Skyrim. Ofc that is hard to implement and bad Players would cry, but that's a whole different story I dont want to talk about in this thread.

It seems like this feature is a little bit more complex than I thought..

This is a good example of how forums are good, when you get a few people 'discussing' a concept / perception or idea

Really broadens the horizons. I hadn't even considered this 'anomaly' until I read your post.

Any change / mechanic will have good and bad points, some like them, other don't. It's the endless balancing act that is the hardest part to do.