Soarora wrote: »

What actually is the worm cult doing on solstice anyways. Are they trying to do planemeld 2.0 or is everyone in the loop that this is a mannimarco thing?

We never learned why they chose Solstice, really. I guess we were meant to think because of its isolation. I kept hoping for some lore linking Mannimarco/Wormblood with Clan Corelanya, or some concrete reason why they decided Solstice was the best place for their resurgence plans.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

We never learned why they chose Solstice, really. I guess we were meant to think because of its isolation. I kept hoping for some lore linking Mannimarco/Wormblood with Clan Corelanya, or some concrete reason why they decided Solstice was the best place for their resurgence plans.

I've been wondering for some time now how much replanning/rewriting might have taken place during the creation of this chapter, and whether they might have thought about some Corelanya story in the beginning, but then changed the concept. I just don't see why you'd link a story about the Worm Cult or Mannimarco to an island inhabitated with formerly necromantic Altmer, and then make nothing of that. Also, we had that early article about Wormblood possibly being related to Mannimarco, which sounded very much like we could get some family background lore about them.

I would find it interesting to know how the story evolved from the initial concept to what we have in game. I like learning "behind the scenes" things like that, and then we get an idea of how the story might have changed as it was developed. And, if they did initially plan to tie Mannimarco to Clan Corelanya, it would be interesting to know the reason why they might have changed it.

One thing I'd definitely would pay for in this game is to look at the design documents for things like daedric arc, Summerset etc. and new content to see what's changed so drastically quality wise. We even know that Summerset was rewrite at least one time and the initial concept wasn't bad, like at all from what I recall. We got some stuff scrapped that were "foreshadowed" in earlier quests and prologues so there's those strange inconsistencies but at least the content was alright at the very end, especially comparatively to now.

metheglyn wrote: »

I would find it interesting to know how the story evolved from the initial concept to what we have in game. I like learning "behind the scenes" things like that, and then we get an idea of how the story might have changed as it was developed. And, if they did initially plan to tie Mannimarco to Clan Corelanya, it would be interesting to know the reason why they might have changed it.

Definitely. This time it was overly obvious that lots of plot aspects were changed at some point, as they forgot to update dialogues accordingly...

- We have the prince pointing in some direction and speaking about "look at the ocean", while being inside the throne room. Clearly he was supposed to be at a different place first. And we have several cases of this in this chapter, with different npcs.

- The dialogue about Vanus having been abducted from the Earth Forge.

- Skordo's dialogue in front of the Corelanya Crypt, where he says he wonders whether Wormblood might be inside - taking place after we've found and defeated Wormblood and concluded he must have been there sometime before. Which to me clearly looks like the quest order and plot were changed there somehow (they corrected the dialogue now, by the way - awkwardly so, but it's fixed at least).

- The chapter trailer that shows us Mannimarco's resurrection ritual taking place in Tarnur mine, conducted by Wormblood. Of course we could assume they staged that just for the video as a promo thing, but why would they depict that if it contradicts the actual storyline completely? It might, from my point of view, be a hint that plans were different earlier. Also, if they put that into the trailer that's supposed to be a short introduction into the story... Would they have included that if it's supposed to be the finale of the story? Makes me think Mannimarco's resurrection might have been originally (or at least at some point of development) planned to take place rather early in the story, successfully, in the mine.

- The fact that a much more pompous model of the sarcophagus exists as an archievement furnishing, decorated with a hundred candles. I don't think they'd do an extra version just as a furnishing (That never happened before, did it? I think the achievement furnishings are all just exact copies of things we find somewhere else in game), so I assume this is an early version they just didn't use later. It looks much more stationary, if that makes sense, with all those candles? Like it was supposed to stand in a crypt for you to find it there (Which would in this case indicate Mannimarco's original resting place - and if we consider the story taking place on Solstice... most probably Corelanya Crypt). Which would make much more sense as I always found it a little silly that the sarcophagus gets moved around so much in the final story - imagine how heavy and difficult to transport that thing must be.

If I needed to make a guess, I'd say in the first story concept Mannimarco (and Wormblood) were supposed to be from Clan Corelanya, and Wormblood might have tried to resurrect Mannimarco at his resting place in the Corelanya Crypt. And then it got changed to Tarnur Mine for some reason. And in the final version we got the sarcophagus flying through time and space and daedric realms. Which was, from my point of view, the worst decision.

As for why they changed it? Maybe they didn't like the idea that actually doing something about Mannimarco's background and family could make him see too "normal" and relatable.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I would find it interesting to know how the story evolved from the initial concept to what we have in game. I like learning "behind the scenes" things like that, and then we get an idea of how the story might have changed as it was developed. And, if they did initially plan to tie Mannimarco to Clan Corelanya, it would be interesting to know the reason why they might have changed it.

If I needed to make a guess, I'd say in the first story concept Mannimarco (and Wormblood) were supposed to be from Clan Corelanya, and Wormblood might have tried to resurrect Mannimarco at his resting place in the Corelanya Crypt. And then it got changed to Tarnur Mine for some reason. And in the final version we got the sarcophagus flying through time and space and daedric realms. Which was, from my point of view, the worst decision.

As for why they changed it? Maybe they didn't like the idea that actually doing something about Mannimarco's background and family could make him see too "normal" and relatable.

Yeah, the incredibly mobile sarcophagus is a bit much.

My guess for the change (if there was a change) about Mannimarco being linked to Clan Corelanya is they chose to have Corelanya eschew necromancy, and not just recently. Perhaps they thought that would have made the story of a renowned (and reviled) necromancer a little less believable if he was known to have come from a family with a zealous aversion to the craft. While I think that juxtaposition would be interesting and lend itself well to deep and compelling story, perhaps they didn't like the idea for other reasons. And since they decided to make the island remote and difficult to reach and hardly anyone had ever heard of it, having Mannimarco come from there would be another tangle to sort out. Basically, it seems to me they went with simplicity to make the story align as closely as possible to the base game story, because sequel and all that.

You made some good points about the inconsistencies/errors in the story, by the way. Sadly, the story doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Syldras wrote: »

I wonder whether some changes are related to the release concept we had this year, with that glowy wall needing to split the island in two halves which does limit the storytelling a bit.

Another thing that might have played a role was the idea to put the Colored Room and Darien into the story somehow, which might not have been the original plan (it does feel a bit too contrived to me). Who knows.

That's possible, too. After all, the story and gameplay have to go hand in hand, which does impose some arbitrary limits sometimes.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

My guess for the change (if there was a change) about Mannimarco being linked to Clan Corelanya is they chose to have Corelanya eschew necromancy, and not just recently. Perhaps they thought that would have made the story of a renowned (and reviled) necromancer a little less believable if he was known to have come from a family with a zealous aversion to the craft. While I think that juxtaposition would be interesting and lend itself well to deep and compelling story, perhaps they didn't like the idea for other reasons.

It would have been an interesting story (much more interesting than what we got, most of all). Also we do know that not all members of the Corelanya clan were willing to give up necromancy. I don't see why there shouldn't be some individuals, even in the current era, who decided to stay close to their original culture, traditions and habits. And even more so about 400 years ago when Mannimarco was in his youth. Or even if his parents were averse to necromancy, his fascination for it could still have been based on his earlier family history. But that would probably also make him feel more relatable and "human".

I do wonder if they limit the background lore and information about some of the more major npc characters in order to better keep them in the role for which they were originally designed.

Or perhaps it has something to do with the idea of limiting npc involvement because overall it's meant to be the player character's story, not Mannimarco's story. I'm trying to recall where I read about that sentiment--an interview or Q and A a long time ago, where someone asked about whether we'd ever see a confrontation/interaction between Mannimarco and Vanus Galerion, and the answer was something like: they want to avoid those kinds of scenes because it's the player's story, not the npcs'. Anyway, that could also limit how much they want to tell about a character's background.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And since they decided to make the island remote and difficult to reach and hardly anyone had ever heard of it, having Mannimarco come from there would be another tangle to sort out.

They wouldn't have needed to. Also it feels arbitrary anyway while they made up this island if there are enough other islands in lore they could have used. And then they make up all that "remote island no one knows" lore and the island doesn't even feel like this with all those different cultures and travellers and whatnot there.

I agree the in-game reality and feel of Solstice doesn't quite match how it was described in the lead-up to the season. But if Mannimarco had been from Solstice, the idea that no one had ever heard of it before would be even harder to believe.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Basically, it seems to me they went with simplicity to make the story align as closely as possible to the base game story, because sequel and all that.

Sadly, it doesn't even feel like a sequel, because a sequel would, to me, mean meaningful character and story development. I don't see a real continuation here, or at least none that contributes to lore as a whole.

Some sequels aren't necessarily that deep, especially when the goal seems to be a retelling of the same basic premise. I think the story would have been fine without the reverse planemeld and Molag Bal connection, but apparently they really wanted to hit all the main elements of the original story. If that's the goal, that limits the story that can be told.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You made some good points about the inconsistencies/errors in the story, by the way. Sadly, the story doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

If they had just stuck to the original concept, it's possible that many errors could have been avoided. Which makes me wonder how much of a spontaneous decision it was, and why.

I also like to know the "why" behind creative decisions, but we hardly ever get to hear about them.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I do wonder if they limit the background lore and information about some of the more major npc characters in order to better keep them in the role for which they were originally designed.
Or perhaps it has something to do with the idea of limiting npc involvement because overall it's meant to be the player character's story, not Mannimarco's story. I'm trying to recall where I read about that sentiment--an interview or Q and A a long time ago, where someone asked about whether we'd ever see a confrontation/interaction between Mannimarco and Vanus Galerion, and the answer was something like: they want to avoid those kinds of scenes because it's the player's story, not the npcs'. Anyway, that could also limit how much they want to tell about a character's background.

The only problem about that is that the world and its characters need to be interesting enough for me to want to interact with them somehow. One-note "characters" and places without much lore don't really do that.

No, they don't. And as to the idea that it's the player character's story, well, it's a nice concept, but it often doesn't end up working out quite like that because our choices are so limited in how we want to play the story.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I agree the in-game reality and feel of Solstice doesn't quite match how it was described in the lead-up to the season. But if Mannimarco had been from Solstice, the idea that no one had ever heard of it before would be even harder to believe.

Who knows how well-known his origins are to the common people? Anyway, I generally think Solstice as a location wasn't the best idea.

I wasn't thinking about the common people. I was thinking about the mages/scholars/researchers who had to find out where Solstice was. Or, you know, Vanus Galerion. Seems like it might have been the kind of thing he might know. I just think that, with as much of an effect as Mannimarco has had on Tamriel, someone in power must have compiled a dossier of some kind on him. But maybe not. Maybe the Three Banners War took all the allotment of enemy research.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Some sequels aren't necessarily that deep, especially when the goal seems to be a retelling of the same basic premise.

The big question to me is: Why? It just seems horribly boring. Do people really like that?

Some people probably do like a familiar story told again. I wasn't thrilled with the idea/premise of dealing with the Worm Cult and Mannimarco again, because I'd had enough of both in the first round. But I did have some initial hopes the story would be more interesting than just a retread. Well, I haven't yet experienced part 2, so my final impression of the story won't be known until then.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wasn't thinking about the common people. I was thinking about the mages/scholars/researchers who had to find out where Solstice was. Or, you know, Vanus Galerion. Seems like it might have been the kind of thing he might know. I just think that, with as much of an effect as Mannimarco has had on Tamriel, someone in power must have compiled a dossier of some kind on him. But maybe not. Maybe the Three Banners War took all the allotment of enemy research.

Okay, Vanus might know. Although we don't know how earnest Mannimarco might or might not have been back then about his background. Maybe he was from a rather unremarkable part of the family and rather made up something more spectacular? Or while he might have been Corelanya, he might have kept that info to himself because of possible stigma?

In any way, I don't like the whole writing about Solstice as a location much. I don't like the fact they made up a new island despite there beings lots of unused islands already named in lore. I don't like all that "mystery" they tried to create around the island, while when actually arriving there, the place absolutely doesn't fit that.

There are more incongruencies like that on the East - not sure if you've read the last news article they published 1 or 2 days ago... There's already a bit more on that. If you haven't read the article, I wouldn't suggest it, by the way. I would have found some aspects of it spoiler-y, in pictures as well as in text, if I hadn't played the whole thing on PTS already anyway.

I agree that the mystery of Solstice didn't really work too well narratively. I wonder if they chose to create an entirely new island rather than use an existing one because that way they could start fresh and build some new lore.

I read the most recent meet the character article, but not the one about Eastern Solstice. If it's a bit spoiler-y, I'll avoid it. They used to be really good about not doing spoilers in their preview articles and such.