Is it time for ZOS to give us an official statement of intentions regarding future vengeance plans?

aetherix8 · October 10

Yes

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I have read your posts. You're not going to PvP no matter the format. You've said as much in several posts, one I quoted above.

You have read my posts and yet you understand nothing. I will PvP again if there is a mode available that I consider enjoyable and worth of my time.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

If you spent as much time in game learning to PvP as you do on this forum you'd probably be able to be competitive..probably. But you'd rather whine and blame shift than get to work learning and getting good at PvP. Current live Cyrodiil has the same skill sets and resources for everyone. You're not at a disadvantage to anyone else during this learning process. It will take some time and effort, as it has for all of us who PvP in ESO.

It certainly took me far longer to level my three AR50 toons on no-proc RW than to argue about Vengeance on this forum. You only need one toon for achievements; others are for PvP. I was becoming more and more competitive indeed, as I was improving my skill on no-proc RW. Then ZOS deleted no-proc RW, and the only version available now is the full-blown proc-hell Cyrodiil, infested with power creep that exacerbates toxicity, and I know it well enough to gather that playing it is far from what I consider fun.

It is curious how some people would whine and blame-shift about something they haven’t lost yet, instead of trying to participate in improving it to make sure it lasts. So afraid of losing your precious GH, guess what, I can totally sympathize with your anxiety precisely because I’ve already lost my precious RW, where power creep was kept in check.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I think you're just trying to create enough conflict in these threads that they get closed down and maybe get those that don't agree with you removed from the forum.

Well, if you stop quoting me and accusing me of stuff then I will probably stop quoting you.

I was surprised that ZOS didn’t close all those dozens of Vengeance threads before posting the official feedback thread, like they did after the 1st Vengeance. Afaik, nobody has been banned from the forums so far for posting in all those Vengeance threads. Some “unnecessary back and forth” was removed here and there, but that’s it. Frankly, I have no idea what your delusion is about.

Also curious is how this thread's derailed back and forth must somehow be deemed necessary if it is still going on. Probably because it makes everyone forget that we wanted to hear from ZOS about their future plans on Vengeance.

Vulkunne · October 10

Yes

If they don't fix the issues in Cyrodiil then Vengeance is the best alternative. More fun if you ask me. But that's how we're living now. You can have unkillable ball groups, emp, just hand over everything to your buddies and then declare that other people are guilty of doing things like being elitist, when you and your Guild are the most elitist there is.

Something's gotta give. It's something ZOS has got to fix; it's become a culture now that's gone on for far too long. If they do try and fix it well there's going to be some pain. But for a large part of us who still PvP I think we'll all do just fine. Vengeance showed us who really had skill and who was hiding behind 'exploited groups buffs'. And if ZOS wants my opinion, I remember seeing this 'truth' during Vengeance I. A return to large scale battles. Ball groups and oppressive PvP Guilds silenced -for once- they all fell silent. They were given a choice of fighting as a group, no crazy buffs or exploits, or logging out. It was good. And ZOS, while many of them left, many more of us joined. Fights were large and servers were packed.

What is it like now? Its dead isn't it. Yeah, it's dead in Cyrodiil. Vengeance couldn't do any worse than the way things currently are now. But I do know this. I know one thing for certain. Doing nothing will not serve anyone. Not forever cause people keep leaving and are not happy with how things are and right now our only choice is to suffer while a few put themselves up on a pedestal or leave. I'd love for that to change one day. Permanently. Best of luck.

LPapirius · October 10

Yes

aetherix8 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I have read your posts. You're not going to PvP no matter the format. You've said as much in several posts, one I quoted above.

You have read my posts and yet you understand nothing. I will PvP again if there is a mode available that I consider enjoyable and worth of my time.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

If you spent as much time in game learning to PvP as you do on this forum you'd probably be able to be competitive..probably. But you'd rather whine and blame shift than get to work learning and getting good at PvP. Current live Cyrodiil has the same skill sets and resources for everyone. You're not at a disadvantage to anyone else during this learning process. It will take some time and effort, as it has for all of us who PvP in ESO.

It certainly took me far longer to level my three AR50 toons on no-proc RW than to argue about Vengeance on this forum. You only need one toon for achievements; others are for PvP. I was becoming more and more competitive indeed, as I was improving my skill on no-proc RW. Then ZOS deleted no-proc RW, and the only version available now is the full-blown proc-hell Cyrodiil, infested with power creep that exacerbates toxicity, and I know it well enough to gather that playing it is far from what I consider fun.

It is curious how some people would whine and blame-shift about something they haven’t lost yet, instead of trying to participate in improving it to make sure it lasts. So afraid of losing your precious GH, guess what, I can totally sympathize with your anxiety precisely because I’ve already lost my precious RW, where power creep was kept in check.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I think you're just trying to create enough conflict in these threads that they get closed down and maybe get those that don't agree with you removed from the forum.

Well, if you stop quoting me and accusing me of stuff then I will probably stop quoting you.

I was surprised that ZOS didn’t close all those dozens of Vengeance threads before posting the official feedback thread, like they did after the 1st Vengeance. Afaik, nobody has been banned from the forums so far for posting in all those Vengeance threads. Some “unnecessary back and forth” was removed here and there, but that’s it. Frankly, I have no idea what your delusion is about.

Also curious is how this thread's derailed back and forth must somehow be deemed necessary if it is still going on. Probably because it makes everyone forget that we wanted to hear from ZOS about their future plans on Vengeance.

Your statements on this forum have ranged from "I don't PvP" to "I'd PvP if it were vengeance" to "what does it matter that I'm a PvE main, my opinion is just as legitimate as yours" to now "It certainly took me far longer to level my three AR50 toons on no-proc RW than to argue about Vengeance on this forum" I've left out many more contradictory statements you've made on this forum for the sake of brevity.

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone refer to their Grand Overlord toons as "AR50", which is also unto itself somewhat contradictory. We in the PvP community call AR50 toons GO's.

In other words, you've contradicted every point you claim to be trying to make. And there is nobody on the PC NA server with your user name, yet you claim to be on that server in one of your posts.

All of this points to how much credibility readers should give to your posts. I doubt your a ZOS employee, but you're certainly doing your best to represent them and their indefensible position when it comes to vengeance.

SneaK · October 10

Yes

Vulkunne wrote: »

If they don't fix the issues in Cyrodiil then Vengeance is the best alternative. More fun if you ask me. But that's how we're living now. You can have unkillable ball groups, emp, just hand over everything to your buddies and then declare that other people are guilty of doing things like being elitist, when you and your Guild are the most elitist there is.

Something's gotta give. It's something ZOS has got to fix; it's become a culture now that's gone on for far too long. If they do try and fix it well there's going to be some pain. But for a large part of us who still PvP I think we'll all do just fine. Vengeance showed us who really had skill and who was hiding behind 'exploited groups buffs'. And if ZOS wants my opinion, I remember seeing this 'truth' during Vengeance I. A return to large scale battles. Ball groups and oppressive PvP Guilds silenced -for once- they all fell silent. They were given a choice of fighting as a group, no crazy buffs or exploits, or logging out. It was good. And ZOS, while many of them left, many more of us joined. Fights were large and servers were packed.

What is it like now? Its dead isn't it. Yeah, it's dead in Cyrodiil. Vengeance couldn't do any worse than the way things currently are now. But I do know this. I know one thing for certain. Doing nothing will not serve anyone. Not forever cause people keep leaving and are not happy with how things are and right now our only choice is to suffer while a few put themselves up on a pedestal or leave. I'd love for that to change one day. Permanently. Best of luck.

^This mentality is the issue^

As a company ZOS should not be applauded for running off players, whether you get along with them or not. There’s a keyword missing, if said people were “cheating”, yes applause goes to the company. But that’s not the case. Your argument is toxic players have made your experience worse. Okay..

How come?

Cause they are playing “together” to the best of their abilities combined with mechanics created by ZOS, more consistently than others. Cause they understand the systems created by ZOS and know how to gain AP more than the average pug. Cause they are running meta sets and a $50 mythic sold to them by ZOS.

Farming AP or leading a ball group is not cheating, it’s understandable to be frustrated when you can’t take a keep with a pug group cause you get bombed or a 3rd alliance ball comes screaming in and steals it after all your hard siege work. Either way, THEY SHOULD NOT BE PENALIZED for grouping in an MMO, for competing in a PvP setting. It’s honestly absurd. Topping the leaderboards and emperor is not for everyone, plain and simple. It’s not owed to you just for setting foot in Cyrodiil. “Passing” emperor along still requires the person to be 2nd on the board.

I’m sure there’s some reference in there about dialogue from guilds or certain people, I won’t defend that. It’s a video game, seems wild to me people would be hateful about a game. Isn’t there a report function for that, seems like this would also fall on ZOS, if said people are being reported and they aren’t doing anything about it.

The rose tinted glasses towards Vengenace is a real thing. If mainstay pvp people are forced to play that mode they will still time their Ultis better than any pug group and you’ll be even more frustrated “cause it was supposed to be easy”.

Vulkunne · October 10

Yes

SneaK wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

If they don't fix the issues in Cyrodiil then Vengeance is the best alternative. More fun if you ask me. But that's how we're living now. You can have unkillable ball groups, emp, just hand over everything to your buddies and then declare that other people are guilty of doing things like being elitist, when you and your Guild are the most elitist there is.

Something's gotta give. It's something ZOS has got to fix; it's become a culture now that's gone on for far too long. If they do try and fix it well there's going to be some pain. But for a large part of us who still PvP I think we'll all do just fine. Vengeance showed us who really had skill and who was hiding behind 'exploited groups buffs'. And if ZOS wants my opinion, I remember seeing this 'truth' during Vengeance I. A return to large scale battles. Ball groups and oppressive PvP Guilds silenced -for once- they all fell silent. They were given a choice of fighting as a group, no crazy buffs or exploits, or logging out. It was good. And ZOS, while many of them left, many more of us joined. Fights were large and servers were packed.

What is it like now? Its dead isn't it. Yeah, it's dead in Cyrodiil. Vengeance couldn't do any worse than the way things currently are now. But I do know this. I know one thing for certain. Doing nothing will not serve anyone. Not forever cause people keep leaving and are not happy with how things are and right now our only choice is to suffer while a few put themselves up on a pedestal or leave. I'd love for that to change one day. Permanently. Best of luck.

^This mentality is the issue^

As a company ZOS should not be applauded for running off players, whether you get along with them or not. There’s a keyword missing, if said people were “cheating”, yes applause goes to the company. But that’s not the case. Your argument is toxic players have made your experience worse. Okay..

How come?

Cause they are playing “together” to the best of their abilities combined with mechanics created by ZOS, more consistently than others. Cause they understand the systems created by ZOS and know how to gain AP more than the average pug. Cause they are running meta sets and a $50 mythic sold to them by ZOS.

Farming AP or leading a ball group is not cheating, it’s understandable to be frustrated when you can’t take a keep with a pug group cause you get bombed or a 3rd alliance ball comes screaming in and steals it after all your hard siege work. Either way, THEY SHOULD NOT BE PENALIZED for grouping in an MMO, for competing in a PvP setting. It’s honestly absurd. Topping the leaderboards and emperor is not for everyone, plain and simple. It’s not owed to you just for setting foot in Cyrodiil. “Passing” emperor along still requires the person to be 2nd on the board.

I’m sure there’s some reference in there about dialogue from guilds or certain people, I won’t defend that. It’s a video game, seems wild to me people would be hateful about a game. Isn’t there a report function for that, seems like this would also fall on ZOS, if said people are being reported and they aren’t doing anything about it.

The rose tinted glasses towards Vengenace is a real thing. If mainstay pvp people are forced to play that mode they will still time their Ultis better than any pug group and you’ll be even more frustrated “cause it was supposed to be easy”.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me. That's one good thing about the community here is we all see things from different perspectives.

I'm being real about this; Not toxic and it's time to start having a more 'adult' discussion. Is PvP for everyone or just a couple people? And if you are being real as you claim, which I believe you are, but we have to admit at some point there is a problem. Cause this sucks and it isn't getting us anywhere. It's not inspiring confidence. What more can I say.

Iriidius · October 10

Muizer wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

And when GreyHost is life they take away Vengeance so where is the difference?

SneaK just told you: GH has a player base that has a lot invested in that format. Vengeance does not.

This is no doubt an observation of some weight. Much more so than whether GH is more fun, more skill based or better in some other way.

Most of the Decade invested into game (Sneak mentioned as attribute to people not as corestatement) is not invested in or relevant to current build. Only because you already have invested doesnt mean everyone else should. If you didnt enjoy that investment doing it only to compete in PvP do you really want have to keep investing into future investments zos will add?

I have also invested 8 years into this game mostly into PvP and most of my builds have become useless with subclassing and I have to reinvest into new builds almost from scratch. And probably we will get metachanges taking away investment forcing us to invest again before a permanent Vengeance again.

Most builds players invested into in last 11 years have become outdated and useless taking away their investment
Trollking/Bloodspawn+Fury+7thLegion/NMA/Shacklebreaker: outdated
VenemousSmite+SheerVenom+MasterBow:outdated
VMMA2h+UnleashedTerror+Syvarra+malacath:outdated
CrimsonTwilight+Syvarra+Malacath+Malubeth:outdated
Vat2h+CleverAlchemist+Pariah+Balorgh Stamden/Stamcro:outdated
Trickery+Kynmarcher+Bloodspawn+DDF DK:outdated
DDF+WV+Alfiq+Chudan Magsorc:outdated
Acuity+S&S Dk/Warden:outdated

Somehow taking away investment to force you invest in something else is accepted but not taking away investment without enforcing new investment as you dont have advantage over people not investing anymore.

Muizer wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

If ZOS made both options available everyone could play what he prefers and players would not have to argue. If you wanted neither Vengeance nor GreyHost taken away you would ask for that but you don’t because you want Vengeance taken away.

The problem with pitching Vengeance as an addition instead of a replacement is that it assumes ZOS would undertake this Vengeance project knowing:

a) They still would have to address the performance in PvP as it is (Users would be just as entitled to complain about it as they are now).
b) They will have an extra feature to maintain going forward.

I think from ZOS' perspective that's not very attractive. Much more likely they are aiming for one performant Cyrodiil PvP mode to maintain at the end of this, whether that's a modified GH or a fleshed out Vengeance. That would actually solve something for them. And when you're going to spend time on an existing game feature like Cyrodiil, that's what you want as a developer: to solve something. Not to add more to your workload.

ZOS keept both noproc and proc Cyrodiil available for 3 years. It could have worked if ZOS choose Blackreach insteat of Ravenwatch and gave players making noproc builds not viable in procPvP a list of working sets or an ingame indication like deactivated Sets marked red as in in Vengeance. As Vengeance is performance test for Cyrodiil it should also help you fix life Cyrodiil. As Vengeance is seperate from rest of game you would have to manage and balance it once and never again. If they managed to keep noproc additional to proc PvP they can do it for Vengeance too.
Not keeping both versions is stupid when most players rather quit PvP than play the other version and ZOS adds new features to their workload anyway even if nobody asked for like tales of tribute.
When players say ZOS wont keep Vengeance and GreyHost they mean ZOS shouldnt because they dont want other players to play Vengeance.

Iriidius · October 10

SneaK wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

No, there’s a big difference, when Vengeance is live, they take away GH. ZOS is creating the divide by forcing PvPers to “test” a campaign they don’t want to play, cause that’s the only Cyro PvP available.

And to point out the severity, believe it or not, there are a lot of people that absolutely can’t stand PvE. So when ZOS “tests” something like vengeance and removes an entire play base from a game some people have invested a decade of time into, they can rightfully voice their disdain for that decision made by devs that are far far disconnected from people who have lived in Cyrodiil for years.

And when GreyHost is life they take away Vengeance so where is the difference?
Vengeance supporters didn’t ask ZOS to take away other campaigns when it is life.
Majority of discussions comefrom Vengeance haters asking ZOS to take away the 1 week of Vengeance per patch even as option.

If ZOS made both options available everyone could play what he prefers and players would not have to argue.
If you wanted neither Vengeance nor GreyHost taken away you would ask for that but you don’t because you want Vengeance taken away.

PvPr preferring Vengeance are forced to play life PvP for 12 of 13 weeks every patch and might not like PvE either if they don’t even do it to get PvP builds. They have it much worse than you who only loose Cyrodiil for a week and can still play IC, BG or Duells.

Feel free to investigate my comments but I don’t think I’ve said optionality is bad. IMO Vengeance is a decent model for 10-50 characters, basic PvP that doesn’t require the time sink of theorycrafting and economic toll to the players. I played it, I did not like it and doubt I’d play it again. That doesn’t mean it can’t still show up as a campaign for the people that want that type of thing.

What it does mean, is that there are lots and lots of people like me, that don’t want it forced on us cause we enjoy more than what it offers. I hate subclassing. I hate hybridization. But I’d rather play a form of Cyrodiil that has those two features (that I HATE) rather than play vengeance. Why, cause Vengeance has undercut years and years of thoughts, money, and grind invested into ESO. It’s tenfold worse now, the best PvP mythic is behind a $50 paywall, so I buy that, then grind PvE (that I HATE) to get it. “Oh hey guys, gear no longer matters in Cyrodiil”.

It’s terrible.

ZOS has created further division between the community by their lack of understanding their community. They are not transparent where they need to be and people are frustrated with them. It doesn’t help to have the other side of the community hopping onboard acting like the opinion of Vengeance shall be positive “or else”.

Editing to say one more thing..
For some, the idea of Vengeance doesn’t just hurt longevity, it’s kills it. If all you do in ESO is play Cyro PvP, and not a fan of Vengeance, there is no reason to play the game anymore. Even though it’s not “fun”, gear grind, especially in MMOs, is a huge part of the game. It gets you into other aspects of the game. Taking away the reason, there’s all of a sudden no purpose in PvE either.

I didnt ask to remove lifePvP as option and force you to play Vengeance. I contradicted comment that Vengeance haters dont want to take away Vengeance as most do. You answered to my comment that taking away GreyHost is different therefore justifying taking away Vengeance.

Solstice, subclassing and monomyth was released after Vengeance test 1 had happened and it was already known that there would be more Vengeance tests so you bought solstice and grinded subclassing and that mythic knowing that you cant use it in Cyrodiil(but still in IC/BG/duell) for 1 week every patch/test.
ZOS has revealed plans for Vengeance 4(patchnotes) and 5 as tests so the earliest time they might release a permanent Vengeance is update 50 where they will probably release a mythic stronger than monomyth so you would stop using it and buy new season pass for $50 anyway so reason your investment will be lost is not Vengeance.
ZOS said they might rollback subclassing in PvP(only) so there was never guarantee it would stay in PvP forever.
Your investment will be lost anyway by ZOS releasing better gear/skills so you can either keep investing into new gear/skills that will be weaker than newer gear later released or stop investing and pay Vengeance when your gear gets outdated.

SneaK · October 10

Yes

Iriidius wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

No, there’s a big difference, when Vengeance is live, they take away GH. ZOS is creating the divide by forcing PvPers to “test” a campaign they don’t want to play, cause that’s the only Cyro PvP available.

And to point out the severity, believe it or not, there are a lot of people that absolutely can’t stand PvE. So when ZOS “tests” something like vengeance and removes an entire play base from a game some people have invested a decade of time into, they can rightfully voice their disdain for that decision made by devs that are far far disconnected from people who have lived in Cyrodiil for years.

And when GreyHost is life they take away Vengeance so where is the difference?
Vengeance supporters didn’t ask ZOS to take away other campaigns when it is life.
Majority of discussions comefrom Vengeance haters asking ZOS to take away the 1 week of Vengeance per patch even as option.

If ZOS made both options available everyone could play what he prefers and players would not have to argue.
If you wanted neither Vengeance nor GreyHost taken away you would ask for that but you don’t because you want Vengeance taken away.

PvPr preferring Vengeance are forced to play life PvP for 12 of 13 weeks every patch and might not like PvE either if they don’t even do it to get PvP builds. They have it much worse than you who only loose Cyrodiil for a week and can still play IC, BG or Duells.

Feel free to investigate my comments but I don’t think I’ve said optionality is bad. IMO Vengeance is a decent model for 10-50 characters, basic PvP that doesn’t require the time sink of theorycrafting and economic toll to the players. I played it, I did not like it and doubt I’d play it again. That doesn’t mean it can’t still show up as a campaign for the people that want that type of thing.

What it does mean, is that there are lots and lots of people like me, that don’t want it forced on us cause we enjoy more than what it offers. I hate subclassing. I hate hybridization. But I’d rather play a form of Cyrodiil that has those two features (that I HATE) rather than play vengeance. Why, cause Vengeance has undercut years and years of thoughts, money, and grind invested into ESO. It’s tenfold worse now, the best PvP mythic is behind a $50 paywall, so I buy that, then grind PvE (that I HATE) to get it. “Oh hey guys, gear no longer matters in Cyrodiil”.

It’s terrible.

ZOS has created further division between the community by their lack of understanding their community. They are not transparent where they need to be and people are frustrated with them. It doesn’t help to have the other side of the community hopping onboard acting like the opinion of Vengeance shall be positive “or else”.

Editing to say one more thing..
For some, the idea of Vengeance doesn’t just hurt longevity, it’s kills it. If all you do in ESO is play Cyro PvP, and not a fan of Vengeance, there is no reason to play the game anymore. Even though it’s not “fun”, gear grind, especially in MMOs, is a huge part of the game. It gets you into other aspects of the game. Taking away the reason, there’s all of a sudden no purpose in PvE either.

I didnt ask to remove lifePvP as option and force you to play Vengeance. I contradicted comment that Vengeance haters dont want to take away Vengeance as most do. You answered to my comment that taking away GreyHost is different therefore justifying taking away Vengeance.

Solstice, subclassing and monomyth was released after Vengeance test 1 had happened and it was already known that there would be more Vengeance tests so you bought solstice and grinded subclassing and that mythic knowing that you cant use it in Cyrodiil(but still in IC/BG/duell) for 1 week every patch/test.
ZOS has revealed plans for Vengeance 4(patchnotes) and 5 as tests so the earliest time they might release a permanent Vengeance is update 50 where they will probably release a mythic stronger than monomyth so you would stop using it and buy new season pass for $50 anyway so reason your investment will be lost is not Vengeance.
ZOS said they might rollback subclassing in PvP(only) so there was never guarantee it would stay in PvP forever.
Your investment will be lost anyway by ZOS releasing better gear/skills so you can either keep investing into new gear/skills that will be weaker than newer gear later released or stop investing and pay Vengeance when your gear gets outdated.

Don’t mean this rudely, but you are just not understanding what I’m saying.

Iriidius · October 10

SneaK wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

No, there’s a big difference, when Vengeance is live, they take away GH. ZOS is creating the divide by forcing PvPers to “test” a campaign they don’t want to play, cause that’s the only Cyro PvP available.

And to point out the severity, believe it or not, there are a lot of people that absolutely can’t stand PvE. So when ZOS “tests” something like vengeance and removes an entire play base from a game some people have invested a decade of time into, they can rightfully voice their disdain for that decision made by devs that are far far disconnected from people who have lived in Cyrodiil for years.

And when GreyHost is life they take away Vengeance so where is the difference?
Vengeance supporters didn’t ask ZOS to take away other campaigns when it is life.
Majority of discussions comefrom Vengeance haters asking ZOS to take away the 1 week of Vengeance per patch even as option.

If ZOS made both options available everyone could play what he prefers and players would not have to argue.
If you wanted neither Vengeance nor GreyHost taken away you would ask for that but you don’t because you want Vengeance taken away.

PvPr preferring Vengeance are forced to play life PvP for 12 of 13 weeks every patch and might not like PvE either if they don’t even do it to get PvP builds. They have it much worse than you who only loose Cyrodiil for a week and can still play IC, BG or Duells.

Feel free to investigate my comments but I don’t think I’ve said optionality is bad. IMO Vengeance is a decent model for 10-50 characters, basic PvP that doesn’t require the time sink of theorycrafting and economic toll to the players. I played it, I did not like it and doubt I’d play it again. That doesn’t mean it can’t still show up as a campaign for the people that want that type of thing.

What it does mean, is that there are lots and lots of people like me, that don’t want it forced on us cause we enjoy more than what it offers. I hate subclassing. I hate hybridization. But I’d rather play a form of Cyrodiil that has those two features (that I HATE) rather than play vengeance. Why, cause Vengeance has undercut years and years of thoughts, money, and grind invested into ESO. It’s tenfold worse now, the best PvP mythic is behind a $50 paywall, so I buy that, then grind PvE (that I HATE) to get it. “Oh hey guys, gear no longer matters in Cyrodiil”.

It’s terrible.

ZOS has created further division between the community by their lack of understanding their community. They are not transparent where they need to be and people are frustrated with them. It doesn’t help to have the other side of the community hopping onboard acting like the opinion of Vengeance shall be positive “or else”.

Editing to say one more thing..
For some, the idea of Vengeance doesn’t just hurt longevity, it’s kills it. If all you do in ESO is play Cyro PvP, and not a fan of Vengeance, there is no reason to play the game anymore. Even though it’s not “fun”, gear grind, especially in MMOs, is a huge part of the game. It gets you into other aspects of the game. Taking away the reason, there’s all of a sudden no purpose in PvE either.

I didnt ask to remove lifePvP as option and force you to play Vengeance. I contradicted comment that Vengeance haters dont want to take away Vengeance as most do. You answered to my comment that taking away GreyHost is different therefore justifying taking away Vengeance.

Solstice, subclassing and monomyth was released after Vengeance test 1 had happened and it was already known that there would be more Vengeance tests so you bought solstice and grinded subclassing and that mythic knowing that you cant use it in Cyrodiil(but still in IC/BG/duell) for 1 week every patch/test.
ZOS has revealed plans for Vengeance 4(patchnotes) and 5 as tests so the earliest time they might release a permanent Vengeance is update 50 where they will probably release a mythic stronger than monomyth so you would stop using it and buy new season pass for $50 anyway so reason your investment will be lost is not Vengeance.
ZOS said they might rollback subclassing in PvP(only) so there was never guarantee it would stay in PvP forever.
Your investment will be lost anyway by ZOS releasing better gear/skills so you can either keep investing into new gear/skills that will be weaker than newer gear later released or stop investing and pay Vengeance when your gear gets outdated.

Don’t mean this rudely, but you are just not understanding what I’m saying.

More than you understand what I'm saying it seems.
Your saying taking away GreyHost is different to Vengeance when I didnt asked to remove GreyHost.
And you complain about your 50$ Monomyth not mattering in a Vengeance 1week test or in hypothetical future Vengeance.

Iriidius · October 10

SneaK wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

If they don't fix the issues in Cyrodiil then Vengeance is the best alternative. More fun if you ask me. But that's how we're living now. You can have unkillable ball groups, emp, just hand over everything to your buddies and then declare that other people are guilty of doing things like being elitist, when you and your Guild are the most elitist there is.

Something's gotta give. It's something ZOS has got to fix; it's become a culture now that's gone on for far too long. If they do try and fix it well there's going to be some pain. But for a large part of us who still PvP I think we'll all do just fine. Vengeance showed us who really had skill and who was hiding behind 'exploited groups buffs'. And if ZOS wants my opinion, I remember seeing this 'truth' during Vengeance I. A return to large scale battles. Ball groups and oppressive PvP Guilds silenced -for once- they all fell silent. They were given a choice of fighting as a group, no crazy buffs or exploits, or logging out. It was good. And ZOS, while many of them left, many more of us joined. Fights were large and servers were packed.

What is it like now? Its dead isn't it. Yeah, it's dead in Cyrodiil. Vengeance couldn't do any worse than the way things currently are now. But I do know this. I know one thing for certain. Doing nothing will not serve anyone. Not forever cause people keep leaving and are not happy with how things are and right now our only choice is to suffer while a few put themselves up on a pedestal or leave. I'd love for that to change one day. Permanently. Best of luck.

^This mentality is the issue^

As a company ZOS should not be applauded for running off players, whether you get along with them or not. There’s a keyword missing, if said people were “cheating”, yes applause goes to the company. But that’s not the case. Your argument is toxic players have made your experience worse. Okay..

How come?

Cause they are playing “together” to the best of their abilities combined with mechanics created by ZOS, more consistently than others. Cause they understand the systems created by ZOS and know how to gain AP more than the average pug. Cause they are running meta sets and a $50 mythic sold to them by ZOS.

Farming AP or leading a ball group is not cheating, it’s understandable to be frustrated when you can’t take a keep with a pug group cause you get bombed or a 3rd alliance ball comes screaming in and steals it after all your hard siege work. Either way, THEY SHOULD NOT BE PENALIZED for grouping in an MMO, for competing in a PvP setting. It’s honestly absurd. Topping the leaderboards and emperor is not for everyone, plain and simple. It’s not owed to you just for setting foot in Cyrodiil. “Passing” emperor along still requires the person to be 2nd on the board.

I’m sure there’s some reference in there about dialogue from guilds or certain people, I won’t defend that. It’s a video game, seems wild to me people would be hateful about a game. Isn’t there a report function for that, seems like this would also fall on ZOS, if said people are being reported and they aren’t doing anything about it.

The rose tinted glasses towards Vengenace is a real thing. If mainstay pvp people are forced to play that mode they will still time their Ultis better than any pug group and you’ll be even more frustrated “cause it was supposed to be easy”.

Ballgroups do not get penalized in Vengeance for playing as ballgroup but just not overrewarded like in GreyHost.
Maybe players are more ok and less frustrated with loosing because their opponent timed their ulti better and outplayed them than by loosing because their opponent does twice the dmg/healing with the same skill.

Interisting that Vengeance supporters getting farmed in GreyHost complaining about it on forum and getting told not to are not complaining about getting farmed in Vengeance and dont notice they get farmed without being told(nor with because it is not happening). Somehow cant take your concern for there players serious. Seems like gaslighting those players or ZOS.
Does it even matter if players who say they rather quit than play Vengeance could kill you in Vengeance?

Emperor most of the time is about spending the most time in Cyrodiil and nobody here asked to get it for setting a foot in Cyrodiil.
You are critizising people for asking for things they didnt ask for telling them they cant have them.

Iriidius · 12:03AM

LPapirius wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I have read your posts. You're not going to PvP no matter the format. You've said as much in several posts, one I quoted above.

You have read my posts and yet you understand nothing. I will PvP again if there is a mode available that I consider enjoyable and worth of my time.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

If you spent as much time in game learning to PvP as you do on this forum you'd probably be able to be competitive..probably. But you'd rather whine and blame shift than get to work learning and getting good at PvP. Current live Cyrodiil has the same skill sets and resources for everyone. You're not at a disadvantage to anyone else during this learning process. It will take some time and effort, as it has for all of us who PvP in ESO.

It certainly took me far longer to level my three AR50 toons on no-proc RW than to argue about Vengeance on this forum. You only need one toon for achievements; others are for PvP. I was becoming more and more competitive indeed, as I was improving my skill on no-proc RW. Then ZOS deleted no-proc RW, and the only version available now is the full-blown proc-hell Cyrodiil, infested with power creep that exacerbates toxicity, and I know it well enough to gather that playing it is far from what I consider fun.

It is curious how some people would whine and blame-shift about something they haven’t lost yet, instead of trying to participate in improving it to make sure it lasts. So afraid of losing your precious GH, guess what, I can totally sympathize with your anxiety precisely because I’ve already lost my precious RW, where power creep was kept in check.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I think you're just trying to create enough conflict in these threads that they get closed down and maybe get those that don't agree with you removed from the forum.

Well, if you stop quoting me and accusing me of stuff then I will probably stop quoting you.

I was surprised that ZOS didn’t close all those dozens of Vengeance threads before posting the official feedback thread, like they did after the 1st Vengeance. Afaik, nobody has been banned from the forums so far for posting in all those Vengeance threads. Some “unnecessary back and forth” was removed here and there, but that’s it. Frankly, I have no idea what your delusion is about.

Also curious is how this thread's derailed back and forth must somehow be deemed necessary if it is still going on. Probably because it makes everyone forget that we wanted to hear from ZOS about their future plans on Vengeance.

Your statements on this forum have ranged from "I don't PvP" to "I'd PvP if it were vengeance" to "what does it matter that I'm a PvE main, my opinion is just as legitimate as yours" to now "It certainly took me far longer to level my three AR50 toons on no-proc RW than to argue about Vengeance on this forum" I've left out many more contradictory statements you've made on this forum for the sake of brevity.

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone refer to their Grand Overlord toons as "AR50", which is also unto itself somewhat contradictory. We in the PvP community call AR50 toons GO's.

In other words, you've contradicted every point you claim to be trying to make. And there is nobody on the PC NA server with your user name, yet you claim to be on that server in one of your posts.

All of this points to how much credibility readers should give to your posts. I doubt your a ZOS employee, but you're certainly doing your best to represent them and their indefensible position when it comes to vengeance.

The statements above are not at all contradictory: aetherix8 got 3 grand overlords in no-proc Ravenwatch, than was forced to stop PvPing (or play procPvP which is worse) when ravenwatch reintroduced procsets making him a PvE main but returned to PvP in Vengeance.
I already heard ohter players call grand overlord "AR50" and SneaK lists his chars as AR32/AR26 under comments too. There can be multiple names for something.
That there is no one with this username on PC NA doesnt prove anything either as he could have another username ingame as many players changed their username(or you typed it wrong).

SneaK · 2:49AM

Yes

@Iriidius
Not really getting it no, again, not trying to be rude. The comparison between the two campaigns is not the same. People haven’t put a decade of time into the format that vengeance is, it’s presented as a test, meanwhile there is a PTS. It doesn’t add up, and people want to know what’s happening. The idea of wiping out the only campaign where all things are active that people spent years to excel at, time, money etc is awful. No one should be putting that idea out there. There is nothing wrong with implementing Vengeance alongside a campaign like GH. But there is a lot wrong with taking away something from a large player base that has invested 10+ years into it.

People weren’t getting wiped by ball groups during the test cause those groups boycotted Vengeance. If that was all they could play, that would still happen in Vengeance.

The example of Monomyth isn’t about money. It’s about literally not having a reason to play the game. Plenty of people do PvE to play PvP, if they were to replace gear etc in Cyro with perks and specific skills, a lot of people would no longer have their 30 year time sink ESO is supposedly to be.

I completely forgot I had a signature, maybe you noticed also I didn’t post for 5 years. Back then, if any of those “ARs” in that signature were GOs, it would say GO not AR420.

aetherix8 · 3:53AM

Yes

LPapirius wrote: »

Your statements on this forum have ranged from "I don't PvP" to "I'd PvP if it were vengeance" to "what does it matter that I'm a PvE main, my opinion is just as legitimate as yours" to now "It certainly took me far longer to level my three AR50 toons on no-proc RW than to argue about Vengeance on this forum" I've left out many more contradictory statements you've made on this forum for the sake of brevity.

"I don't PvP" anymore, this statement is true but your quote is incomplete
"I'd PvP if it were vengeance" this statement is true but your quote is incomplete; I usually talk about much enhanced Vengeance
"what does it matter that I'm a PvE main, my opinion is just as legitimate as yours" PvE main from 2015 to circa 2020 yep, another true statement
"It certainly took me far longer to level my three AR50 toons on no-proc RW than to argue about Vengeance on this forum", yes it takes longer than 1 month to level three AR50 characters

LPapirius wrote: »

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone refer to their Grand Overlord toons as "AR50", which is also unto itself somewhat contradictory. We in the PvP community call AR50 toons GO's.

That proves my claim that I'm a PvE main but I've spent enough time in Cyrodiil to know what I'm taking about when it comes to ESO PvP, and my opinions are legit. I saw both AR50 and GO, both are valid. Maybe on PC NA you use GO more frequently.

LPapirius wrote: »

In other words, you've contradicted every point you claim to be trying to make. And there is nobody on the PC NA server with your user name, yet you claim to be on that server in one of your posts.

You appear to be in a dire need of improving your reading skills. Under every of my posts you can see PC EU, no wonder you haven't see me on PC NA lol.

LPapirius wrote: »

All of this points to how much credibility readers should give to your posts. I doubt your a ZOS employee, but you're certainly doing your best to represent them and their indefensible position when it comes to vengeance.

Just get some basic reading comprehension skills, that will help you to avoid much stress in life.

aetherix8 · 5:05AM

Yes

Iriidius wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I have read your posts. You're not going to PvP no matter the format. You've said as much in several posts, one I quoted above.

You have read my posts and yet you understand nothing. I will PvP again if there is a mode available that I consider enjoyable and worth of my time.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

If you spent as much time in game learning to PvP as you do on this forum you'd probably be able to be competitive..probably. But you'd rather whine and blame shift than get to work learning and getting good at PvP. Current live Cyrodiil has the same skill sets and resources for everyone. You're not at a disadvantage to anyone else during this learning process. It will take some time and effort, as it has for all of us who PvP in ESO.

It certainly took me far longer to level my three AR50 toons on no-proc RW than to argue about Vengeance on this forum. You only need one toon for achievements; others are for PvP. I was becoming more and more competitive indeed, as I was improving my skill on no-proc RW. Then ZOS deleted no-proc RW, and the only version available now is the full-blown proc-hell Cyrodiil, infested with power creep that exacerbates toxicity, and I know it well enough to gather that playing it is far from what I consider fun.

It is curious how some people would whine and blame-shift about something they haven’t lost yet, instead of trying to participate in improving it to make sure it lasts. So afraid of losing your precious GH, guess what, I can totally sympathize with your anxiety precisely because I’ve already lost my precious RW, where power creep was kept in check.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I think you're just trying to create enough conflict in these threads that they get closed down and maybe get those that don't agree with you removed from the forum.

Well, if you stop quoting me and accusing me of stuff then I will probably stop quoting you.

I was surprised that ZOS didn’t close all those dozens of Vengeance threads before posting the official feedback thread, like they did after the 1st Vengeance. Afaik, nobody has been banned from the forums so far for posting in all those Vengeance threads. Some “unnecessary back and forth” was removed here and there, but that’s it. Frankly, I have no idea what your delusion is about.

Also curious is how this thread's derailed back and forth must somehow be deemed necessary if it is still going on. Probably because it makes everyone forget that we wanted to hear from ZOS about their future plans on Vengeance.

Your statements on this forum have ranged from "I don't PvP" to "I'd PvP if it were vengeance" to "what does it matter that I'm a PvE main, my opinion is just as legitimate as yours" to now "It certainly took me far longer to level my three AR50 toons on no-proc RW than to argue about Vengeance on this forum" I've left out many more contradictory statements you've made on this forum for the sake of brevity.

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone refer to their Grand Overlord toons as "AR50", which is also unto itself somewhat contradictory. We in the PvP community call AR50 toons GO's.

In other words, you've contradicted every point you claim to be trying to make. And there is nobody on the PC NA server with your user name, yet you claim to be on that server in one of your posts.

All of this points to how much credibility readers should give to your posts. I doubt your a ZOS employee, but you're certainly doing your best to represent them and their indefensible position when it comes to vengeance.

The statements above are not at all contradictory: aetherix8 got 3 grand overlords in no-proc Ravenwatch, than was forced to stop PvPing (or play procPvP which is worse) when ravenwatch reintroduced procsets making him a PvE main but returned to PvP in Vengeance.
I already heard ohter players call grand overlord "AR50" and SneaK lists his chars as AR32/AR26 under comments too. There can be multiple names for something.
That there is no one with this username on PC NA doesnt prove anything either as he could have another username ingame as many players changed their username(or you typed it wrong).

My in game ID used to be aetherix8, then etherix8, now it’s V4hn1. Some folks on PC EU might remember etherix8, but only those who played on RW.

Edit: faith in the PvP community reading skills partially restored, thanks!

aetherix8 · 5:15AM

Yes

Muizer wrote: »

I think from ZOS' perspective that's not very attractive. Much more likely they are aiming for one performant Cyrodiil PvP mode to maintain at the end of this, whether that's a modified GH or a fleshed out Vengeance. That would actually solve something for them. And when you're going to spend time on an existing game feature like Cyrodiil, that's what you want as a developer: to solve something. Not to add more to your workload.

You’re probably right. When ZOS removed no-proc campaign, they said in patch notes that they wanted to provide uniform experience across all campaigns. That alone makes me think that there will be only one rule set once testing is over, either “modified GH” or a “fleshed out Vengeance”. Maybe in the process of fixing GH performance ZOS will also address balance, making GH an actual option for those who refuse to play it as it is currently.

Muizer · 1:05PM

Iriidius wrote: »

As Vengeance is performance test for Cyrodiil it should also help you fix life Cyrodiil.

According to ZOS, poor performance on live is not due to inefficient coding or poor hardware or anything else that can be changed 'behind the scenes'. It is the very complexity of the system that leads to too many calculations per second to handle. That is, it's the sets, abilities and CP themselves that are the problem and that is what they are fixing. Check Wheeler on the latest ESO live. That means whatever they end up with will not be what's live on GH atm, with only some changes under the hood.

Iriidius wrote: »

As Vengeance is seperate from rest of game you would have to manage and balance it once and never again.

And do nothing to keep players engaged with new content and make money off of it? Don't think so.

I think we need to be clear about what Vengeance and live Cyrodiil are, from a development perspective:

Iriidius wrote: »

If they managed to keep noproc additional to proc PvP they can do it for Vengeance too.

Proc and No Proc are 99% the same code base. No Proc doesn't add the overhead that Vengeance does.

Iriidius wrote: »

Not keeping both versions is stupid when most players rather quit PvP than play the other version

Keeping it open would indeed not be hard, as legacy mode. That is, it would just be PvP with the PvE rule set with no regard for further balance. And that's kind of what's already happened with Subclassing. I wouldn't be surprised if the decision to develop Vengeance was strategically related to that along the lines of "Ok, it will really mess up PvP, but for that we're already developing Vengeance, so no harm done. We'll just call it a year of transition".

Iriidius wrote: »

and ZOS adds new features to their workload anyway even if nobody asked for like tales of tribute.

They certainly have in the past, but that seems to be changing. They've been putting out more and more content that leans quite a bit on reusing existing assets. We know there have been cuts and layoffs.

Iriidius wrote: »

When players say ZOS wont keep Vengeance and GreyHost they mean ZOS shouldnt because they dont want other players to play Vengeance.

Nah, it's quite clear that most are acknowledge that performance wise current Cyrodiil is a lost cause and that as a game mode Vengeance could end up being objectively better. They're also not afraid of 'easy mode', because there is no 'easy mode', when the other side is also playing 'easy mode'. And die-hard PvPers will find ways to dominate in Vengeance too. There's no doubt about that.

No, ultimately there are two problems I see long time PvP players have with Vengeance. Firstly they will lose the advantage they built up in terms of builds and mastery of the abilities. Secondly, they have (justified) concerns about how Vengeance is already being balanced towards the same kind of things game play (not performance) that have been a problem on live. At least that's my interpretation of what's been said so far.