Is it time for ZOS to give us an official statement of intentions regarding future vengeance plans?

Lucasl402

Yes

aetherix8 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

On the other side of the coin, why are PvE players so keen to get rid of the existing PvP when they don't play PvP at all?

What if PvEers did try to PvP, got lagged to death, got ballgroup-steamrolled over and over, got bombed on every ram, flag, or door-repairing, got farmed countless times by players abusing broken sets, and simply figured they had better things to do if there is nothing really fun about the current Cyrodiil?

Are PvEers wrong to ask for a PvP mode where they stand a chance and one they enjoy?

I’m going to answer your questions, respectfully.

1. What if they did try to PvP and weren’t successful?

They’d be PvPing….. maybe storing years of resentment and finally voicing it on the forums since they see a sliver of opportunity to get revenge on those ornery PvPers by gutting the only part of the game they have. Muhahahah
(Reality is, player vs player is survival of the fittest. If Vengeance were to replace normal Cyro, and actual PvPers had to play it, you would get killed in the exact same ways you do now, maybe worse cause numbers matter more in that terrible mode)

2. Are PvErs wrong to ask for a PvP campaign that’s easy?

Yea, pretty much. If that’s what we’re doing, let PvPers get a group finder for easy trials/arenas that give the same rewards as hard mode. Somewhere we can just stand in the back (similar to a wall of a keep) and LA with our bows, I’d really like to get that perfected maul.

You aren't even answering my questions; you answer to some twisted interpretation, respectfully.

Questions are clearly indicated with the question mark:

1. What if PvEers figured they had better things to do than deal with op ballgroups, broken builds, lag, etc?

For some reason, you make it about being unsuccessful and resentful, while it is simply about being tired of the unbalanced mess that is the current PvP.

2. Are PvEers wrong to ask for a PvP mode where they stand a chance and one they enjoy?

“A mode where they stand a chance and one they enjoy” means a balanced environment and improved performance. At least Vengeance has improved performance, and imbalance is atm less game-breaking than on live.

Lucasl402 wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

ZOS keeps using a vocabulary like “experimenting”, etc. It is clear that they are testing different ideas and systems, and none of those has any guarantee of becoming permanent. Vengeance might disappear entirely once all data is collected. I’m not sure why PvPers are panicking so badly, I guess deep inside they know that current PvP is just too broken on many levels.

PvPer's see a ton of money going into the development of features they don't want to see in a FUTURE PvP environment so they've asked for clarity. Panic seems like a stretch but here you are.

PvEers see a ton of money going into the development of features they don't want to see and don't care about. They would rather see a new chapter with more quests.

On what grounds do PvPers reserve the exclusive right to decide what the FUTURE PvP will look like? What's wrong with having regular Cyrodiil and a second, Vengeance-like campaign, both enabled at the same time?

StihlReign wrote: »

We gave PvErs a simple solution via CP and an easy to purchase 2 pc set to stop them from getting bombed and ganked during events. It was nerfed in record time, about 2 weeks. The info is in the patch notes.

LOL. Since when do PvPers work for ZOS? PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers, and now are also trying hard to take away any possibility of an additional PvP mode from those who would welcome such an alternative.

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Reading comprehension and objectivity are severely lacking in any Vengeance discussion. Also, the discrimination against PvE mains' voices and opinions, even when they pvp regularly (or used to), is disappointing. It gives an image of a PvP community that is a self-proclaimed elite but one devoid of vision, open-mindedness, and the ability to embrace change.
Also devoid of reading skills.

I'm not a PvP main since beta; claiming on this forum that you're a PvPer is pointless, and it just derails any discussion. Anyway, as I said, I don't care about what happens to the current version of PvP, and yes, I'm not going to play it as it is right now; it's an awful experience.

But I'm all in for testing a potential alternative PvP version. If Vengeance's results help fix the current PvP, then I'm happy for those who enjoy it. If Vengeance becomes a mode in its own right, much enhanced than what we saw so far, then I'm going to play it on a regular basis. If Vengeance gets deleted once testing is over, then I get at least 1 week of PvP every 3 months, while it lasts, that is fun when populations are balanced.

PvE has received an incredible amount of resources from the devs. PvP has one main zone and the devs couldn't be bothered to make even simple changes suggested by the players. Things are left half done, unexplained, ignored, mocked or given some of the worst excuses - while doing nothing, or something no one asked for. Why is clarity an unreasonable request?

This is patently false. Back in 2021, ZOS tested some players' ideas, like disabling crosshealing outside of groups or disabling proc sets, so yeah, devs bother from time to time. They also introduce things no one asked for, but since it's their game, they can do whatever they deem best, whether we agree or not.

Nobody is asking for a blind trust in ZOS, but rather that PvPers chill so they can access clarity of thinking and their reading skills again, and stop jumping to misguided conclusions like "Vengeance will replace all of PvP" or "PvEers hate us and want PvP deleted from the game."

Yet for most of the history of ESO there have been people on this forum posting regularly that the game would be better if PvP was removed. Right below this thread there is even a poll asking if the 3 banners war should end with the next patch.

I guess you just missed those hundreds of threads over the years.

I guess you just missed those hundreds of votes that I cast over the years in polls asking for a PvE version of Cyrodill.

Thank you for proving my point.

aetherix8

Yes

Lucasl402 wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

On the other side of the coin, why are PvE players so keen to get rid of the existing PvP when they don't play PvP at all?

What if PvEers did try to PvP, got lagged to death, got ballgroup-steamrolled over and over, got bombed on every ram, flag, or door-repairing, got farmed countless times by players abusing broken sets, and simply figured they had better things to do if there is nothing really fun about the current Cyrodiil?

Are PvEers wrong to ask for a PvP mode where they stand a chance and one they enjoy?

I’m going to answer your questions, respectfully.

1. What if they did try to PvP and weren’t successful?

They’d be PvPing….. maybe storing years of resentment and finally voicing it on the forums since they see a sliver of opportunity to get revenge on those ornery PvPers by gutting the only part of the game they have. Muhahahah
(Reality is, player vs player is survival of the fittest. If Vengeance were to replace normal Cyro, and actual PvPers had to play it, you would get killed in the exact same ways you do now, maybe worse cause numbers matter more in that terrible mode)

2. Are PvErs wrong to ask for a PvP campaign that’s easy?

Yea, pretty much. If that’s what we’re doing, let PvPers get a group finder for easy trials/arenas that give the same rewards as hard mode. Somewhere we can just stand in the back (similar to a wall of a keep) and LA with our bows, I’d really like to get that perfected maul.

You aren't even answering my questions; you answer to some twisted interpretation, respectfully.

Questions are clearly indicated with the question mark:

1. What if PvEers figured they had better things to do than deal with op ballgroups, broken builds, lag, etc?

For some reason, you make it about being unsuccessful and resentful, while it is simply about being tired of the unbalanced mess that is the current PvP.

2. Are PvEers wrong to ask for a PvP mode where they stand a chance and one they enjoy?

“A mode where they stand a chance and one they enjoy” means a balanced environment and improved performance. At least Vengeance has improved performance, and imbalance is atm less game-breaking than on live.

Lucasl402 wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

ZOS keeps using a vocabulary like “experimenting”, etc. It is clear that they are testing different ideas and systems, and none of those has any guarantee of becoming permanent. Vengeance might disappear entirely once all data is collected. I’m not sure why PvPers are panicking so badly, I guess deep inside they know that current PvP is just too broken on many levels.

PvPer's see a ton of money going into the development of features they don't want to see in a FUTURE PvP environment so they've asked for clarity. Panic seems like a stretch but here you are.

PvEers see a ton of money going into the development of features they don't want to see and don't care about. They would rather see a new chapter with more quests.

On what grounds do PvPers reserve the exclusive right to decide what the FUTURE PvP will look like? What's wrong with having regular Cyrodiil and a second, Vengeance-like campaign, both enabled at the same time?

StihlReign wrote: »

We gave PvErs a simple solution via CP and an easy to purchase 2 pc set to stop them from getting bombed and ganked during events. It was nerfed in record time, about 2 weeks. The info is in the patch notes.

LOL. Since when do PvPers work for ZOS? PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers, and now are also trying hard to take away any possibility of an additional PvP mode from those who would welcome such an alternative.

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Reading comprehension and objectivity are severely lacking in any Vengeance discussion. Also, the discrimination against PvE mains' voices and opinions, even when they pvp regularly (or used to), is disappointing. It gives an image of a PvP community that is a self-proclaimed elite but one devoid of vision, open-mindedness, and the ability to embrace change.
Also devoid of reading skills.

I'm not a PvP main since beta; claiming on this forum that you're a PvPer is pointless, and it just derails any discussion. Anyway, as I said, I don't care about what happens to the current version of PvP, and yes, I'm not going to play it as it is right now; it's an awful experience.

But I'm all in for testing a potential alternative PvP version. If Vengeance's results help fix the current PvP, then I'm happy for those who enjoy it. If Vengeance becomes a mode in its own right, much enhanced than what we saw so far, then I'm going to play it on a regular basis. If Vengeance gets deleted once testing is over, then I get at least 1 week of PvP every 3 months, while it lasts, that is fun when populations are balanced.

PvE has received an incredible amount of resources from the devs. PvP has one main zone and the devs couldn't be bothered to make even simple changes suggested by the players. Things are left half done, unexplained, ignored, mocked or given some of the worst excuses - while doing nothing, or something no one asked for. Why is clarity an unreasonable request?

This is patently false. Back in 2021, ZOS tested some players' ideas, like disabling crosshealing outside of groups or disabling proc sets, so yeah, devs bother from time to time. They also introduce things no one asked for, but since it's their game, they can do whatever they deem best, whether we agree or not.

Nobody is asking for a blind trust in ZOS, but rather that PvPers chill so they can access clarity of thinking and their reading skills again, and stop jumping to misguided conclusions like "Vengeance will replace all of PvP" or "PvEers hate us and want PvP deleted from the game."

Yet for most of the history of ESO there have been people on this forum posting regularly that the game would be better if PvP was removed. Right below this thread there is even a poll asking if the 3 banners war should end with the next patch.

I guess you just missed those hundreds of threads over the years.

I guess you just missed those hundreds of votes that I cast over the years in polls asking for a PvE version of Cyrodill.

Thank you for proving my point.

It's a fact that every now and then there are people posting threads about PvE Cyrodiil, especially around WSM. How are players who vote 'no' proving your point? What even is your point? That every PvEer hates PvP and wants it deleted? In such a case, my reply pretty much undermines your point.

StihlReign

Yes

aetherix8 wrote: »

1. What if PvEers figured they had better things to do than deal with op ballgroups, broken builds, lag, etc?

2. Are PvEers wrong to ask for a PvP mode where they stand a chance and one they enjoy?

3. Since when do PvPers work for ZOS?

4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways. In general, I suspect that PvEers don't really care either, they have other problems, like hats and economy. PvPers can try and dictate whatever they want to PvEers, it doesn't change that Cyro populations are shrinking.

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.
3. Since ZOS said PvPers work for them on this forum. But that isn't what I was referencing and you know it. See the next comment.
4. Yes PvPers have. We've given tons of advice, builds and techniques to PvErs. The easiest to verify are the the tons of posts before every MYM. There's also a ton of requests from PvErs on how to survive in IC, or collect items in IC without PvPing. PvPers help you with this and show a ton of grace when they could say - Learn to Play.
5. This rings untrue; however, here we are answering questions for someone with an agenda. You can't PvP, you want an ez mode to help you, you'd prefer to PvP on some imaginary even playing field rather than develop skill. Every player in the current environment is under the same ruleset as every other player, so what's your problem? How can we help you get better?

PvPers aren't asking ZOS for new abilities or skills. They want a more performant environment and one without heal, buff, and shield stacking. They've asked repeatedly for a removal or detuning of certain skills and armor sets and named them. They've asked ZOS for the results of tests and for follow through on past promises to provide information. Now they've become paid testers for ZOS while the devs fall back to ignoring requests for updated information regarding the direction of the current tests.

Orbital78

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

On the other side of the coin, why are PvE players so keen to get rid of the existing PvP when they don't play PvP at all?

Maybe they would enjoy a less laggy and more balanced experience rather than the current state. PVD is a more enjoyable experience right now.

Maybe my PVE builds would stop getting decimated because they cannot use battle spirit as well.

Your builds were nerfed because they were overpowered in PvE. PvP had nothing to do with it.

false

Major_Mangle

Yes

Orbital78 wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

On the other side of the coin, why are PvE players so keen to get rid of the existing PvP when they don't play PvP at all?

Maybe they would enjoy a less laggy and more balanced experience rather than the current state. PVD is a more enjoyable experience right now.

Maybe my PVE builds would stop getting decimated because they cannot use battle spirit as well.

Your builds were nerfed because they were overpowered in PvE. PvP had nothing to do with it.

false

It's true tho. As much as a vocal group of PvE players want to gaslight the community that PvP are responsible for everything bad in PvE, an overwhelming majority of balance changes done in PvE throughout eso history are done because of PvE, not PvP.

aetherix8

Yes

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

1. What if PvEers figured they had better things to do than deal with op ballgroups, broken builds, lag, etc?

2. Are PvEers wrong to ask for a PvP mode where they stand a chance and one they enjoy?

3. Since when do PvPers work for ZOS?

4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways. In general, I suspect that PvEers don't really care either, they have other problems, like hats and economy. PvPers can try and dictate whatever they want to PvEers, it doesn't change that Cyro populations are shrinking.

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.
3. Since ZOS said PvPers work for them on this forum. But that isn't what I was referencing and you know it. See the next comment.
4. Yes PvPers have. We've given tons of advice, builds and techniques to PvErs. The easiest to verify are the the tons of posts before every MYM. There's also a ton of requests from PvErs on how to survive in IC, or collect items in IC without PvPing. PvPers help you with this and show a ton of grace when they could say - Learn to Play.
5. This rings untrue; however, here we are answering questions for someone with an agenda. You can't PvP, you want an ez mode to help you, you'd prefer to PvP on some imaginary even playing field rather than develop skill. Every player in the current environment is under the same ruleset as every other player, so what's your problem? How can we help you get better?

1. Quite an underwhelming option. I would rather play, but cannot, since no-proc Ravenwatch disappeared. It was a much better PvP experience, and it was more new-player friendly, without op ballgroups, bombers on every step, and other issues caused by broken sets. I hope Vengeance will one day arrive at this much enhanced point, where it can permanently replace the U50 or the no-CP campaign.
2. Read the comment above. I achieved AR50 on three toons while playing on no-proc Ravenwatch, and I acquired a degree of skill in the process. I would have continued improving my skill if no-proc RW still existed. And it was never an easy mode, just free from all the issues plaguing GH.
3. Please provide a link to such an official statement from ZOS to back up your claim that PvPers work for ZOS.
4. You should have said all of that previously instead of saying

StihlReign wrote: »

We gave PvErs a simple solution via CP and an easy to purchase 2 pc set (...).

AFAIK only ZOS retains the power to give systems or item sets to any player, PvE or PvP. I agree with giving advice and knowledge sharing.
5. That's because you don't know me so my words obv don't work with your false assumptions about me.

StihlReign wrote: »

PvPers aren't asking ZOS for new abilities or skills. They want a more performant environment and one without heal, buff, and shield stacking. They've asked repeatedly for a removal or detuning of certain skills and armor sets and named them. They've asked ZOS for the results of tests and for follow through on past promises to provide information.

Is there like an official statement or something that you were chosen to speak for the entire PvP community? Speak for yourself. There are also some PvPers who wouldn't mind at all an alternative, learner friendly campaign, and some would even play it on a regular basis.

StihlReign wrote: »

Now they've become paid testers for ZOS while the devs fall back to ignoring requests for updated information regarding the direction of the current tests.

Please provide a link to such an official statement from ZOS to back up your claim that PvPers work for ZOS and are even getting paid. I would like to apply.

SaffronCitrusflower

Yes

aetherix8 wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

ZOS keeps using a vocabulary like “experimenting”, etc. It is clear that they are testing different ideas and systems, and none of those has any guarantee of becoming permanent. Vengeance might disappear entirely once all data is collected. I’m not sure why PvPers are panicking so badly, I guess deep inside they know that current PvP is just too broken on many levels.

PvPer's see a ton of money going into the development of features they don't want to see in a FUTURE PvP environment so they've asked for clarity. Panic seems like a stretch but here you are.

PvEers see a ton of money going into the development of features they don't want to see and don't care about. They would rather see a new chapter with more quests.

On what grounds do PvPers reserve the exclusive right to decide what the FUTURE PvP will look like? What's wrong with having regular Cyrodiil and a second, Vengeance-like campaign, both enabled at the same time?

StihlReign wrote: »

We gave PvErs a simple solution via CP and an easy to purchase 2 pc set to stop them from getting bombed and ganked during events. It was nerfed in record time, about 2 weeks. The info is in the patch notes.

LOL. Since when do PvPers work for ZOS? PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers, and now are also trying hard to take away any possibility of an additional PvP mode from those who would welcome such an alternative.

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Reading comprehension and objectivity are severely lacking in any Vengeance discussion. Also, the discrimination against PvE mains' voices and opinions, even when they pvp regularly (or used to), is disappointing. It gives an image of a PvP community that is a self-proclaimed elite but one devoid of vision, open-mindedness, and the ability to embrace change.
Also devoid of reading skills.

I'm not a PvP main since beta; claiming on this forum that you're a PvPer is pointless, and it just derails any discussion. Anyway, as I said, I don't care about what happens to the current version of PvP, and yes, I'm not going to play it as it is right now; it's an awful experience.

But I'm all in for testing a potential alternative PvP version. If Vengeance's results help fix the current PvP, then I'm happy for those who enjoy it. If Vengeance becomes a mode in its own right, much enhanced than what we saw so far, then I'm going to play it on a regular basis. If Vengeance gets deleted once testing is over, then I get at least 1 week of PvP every 3 months, while it lasts, that is fun when populations are balanced.

PvE has received an incredible amount of resources from the devs. PvP has one main zone and the devs couldn't be bothered to make even simple changes suggested by the players. Things are left half done, unexplained, ignored, mocked or given some of the worst excuses - while doing nothing, or something no one asked for. Why is clarity an unreasonable request?

This is patently false. Back in 2021, ZOS tested some players' ideas, like disabling crosshealing outside of groups or disabling proc sets, so yeah, devs bother from time to time. They also introduce things no one asked for, but since it's their game, they can do whatever they deem best, whether we agree or not.

Nobody is asking for a blind trust in ZOS, but rather that PvPers chill so they can access clarity of thinking and their reading skills again, and stop jumping to misguided conclusions like "Vengeance will replace all of PvP" or "PvEers hate us and want PvP deleted from the game."

Putting vengeance up as the only PvP option IS, IN FACT, forcing PvP players to do work for ZOS.

SaffronCitrusflower

Yes

Orbital78 wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

On the other side of the coin, why are PvE players so keen to get rid of the existing PvP when they don't play PvP at all?

Maybe they would enjoy a less laggy and more balanced experience rather than the current state. PVD is a more enjoyable experience right now.

Maybe my PVE builds would stop getting decimated because they cannot use battle spirit as well.

Your builds were nerfed because they were overpowered in PvE. PvP had nothing to do with it.

false

It's true. The vast majority of everything ZOS does is in relation to PvE.

aetherix8

Yes

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

ZOS keeps using a vocabulary like “experimenting”, etc. It is clear that they are testing different ideas and systems, and none of those has any guarantee of becoming permanent. Vengeance might disappear entirely once all data is collected. I’m not sure why PvPers are panicking so badly, I guess deep inside they know that current PvP is just too broken on many levels.

PvPer's see a ton of money going into the development of features they don't want to see in a FUTURE PvP environment so they've asked for clarity. Panic seems like a stretch but here you are.

PvEers see a ton of money going into the development of features they don't want to see and don't care about. They would rather see a new chapter with more quests.

On what grounds do PvPers reserve the exclusive right to decide what the FUTURE PvP will look like? What's wrong with having regular Cyrodiil and a second, Vengeance-like campaign, both enabled at the same time?

StihlReign wrote: »

We gave PvErs a simple solution via CP and an easy to purchase 2 pc set to stop them from getting bombed and ganked during events. It was nerfed in record time, about 2 weeks. The info is in the patch notes.

LOL. Since when do PvPers work for ZOS? PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers, and now are also trying hard to take away any possibility of an additional PvP mode from those who would welcome such an alternative.

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Reading comprehension and objectivity are severely lacking in any Vengeance discussion. Also, the discrimination against PvE mains' voices and opinions, even when they pvp regularly (or used to), is disappointing. It gives an image of a PvP community that is a self-proclaimed elite but one devoid of vision, open-mindedness, and the ability to embrace change.
Also devoid of reading skills.

I'm not a PvP main since beta; claiming on this forum that you're a PvPer is pointless, and it just derails any discussion. Anyway, as I said, I don't care about what happens to the current version of PvP, and yes, I'm not going to play it as it is right now; it's an awful experience.

But I'm all in for testing a potential alternative PvP version. If Vengeance's results help fix the current PvP, then I'm happy for those who enjoy it. If Vengeance becomes a mode in its own right, much enhanced than what we saw so far, then I'm going to play it on a regular basis. If Vengeance gets deleted once testing is over, then I get at least 1 week of PvP every 3 months, while it lasts, that is fun when populations are balanced.

PvE has received an incredible amount of resources from the devs. PvP has one main zone and the devs couldn't be bothered to make even simple changes suggested by the players. Things are left half done, unexplained, ignored, mocked or given some of the worst excuses - while doing nothing, or something no one asked for. Why is clarity an unreasonable request?

This is patently false. Back in 2021, ZOS tested some players' ideas, like disabling crosshealing outside of groups or disabling proc sets, so yeah, devs bother from time to time. They also introduce things no one asked for, but since it's their game, they can do whatever they deem best, whether we agree or not.

Nobody is asking for a blind trust in ZOS, but rather that PvPers chill so they can access clarity of thinking and their reading skills again, and stop jumping to misguided conclusions like "Vengeance will replace all of PvP" or "PvEers hate us and want PvP deleted from the game."

Putting vengeance up as the only PvP option IS, IN FACT, forcing PvP players to do work for ZOS.

You're free to play another game, as, IN FACT, nobody is forced to participate in Vengeance tests. You can just do a week long break from ESO; think of it as an extended maintenance.

SaffronCitrusflower

Yes

aetherix8 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

ZOS keeps using a vocabulary like “experimenting”, etc. It is clear that they are testing different ideas and systems, and none of those has any guarantee of becoming permanent. Vengeance might disappear entirely once all data is collected. I’m not sure why PvPers are panicking so badly, I guess deep inside they know that current PvP is just too broken on many levels.

PvPer's see a ton of money going into the development of features they don't want to see in a FUTURE PvP environment so they've asked for clarity. Panic seems like a stretch but here you are.

PvEers see a ton of money going into the development of features they don't want to see and don't care about. They would rather see a new chapter with more quests.

On what grounds do PvPers reserve the exclusive right to decide what the FUTURE PvP will look like? What's wrong with having regular Cyrodiil and a second, Vengeance-like campaign, both enabled at the same time?

StihlReign wrote: »

We gave PvErs a simple solution via CP and an easy to purchase 2 pc set to stop them from getting bombed and ganked during events. It was nerfed in record time, about 2 weeks. The info is in the patch notes.

LOL. Since when do PvPers work for ZOS? PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers, and now are also trying hard to take away any possibility of an additional PvP mode from those who would welcome such an alternative.

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Reading comprehension and objectivity are severely lacking in any Vengeance discussion. Also, the discrimination against PvE mains' voices and opinions, even when they pvp regularly (or used to), is disappointing. It gives an image of a PvP community that is a self-proclaimed elite but one devoid of vision, open-mindedness, and the ability to embrace change.
Also devoid of reading skills.

I'm not a PvP main since beta; claiming on this forum that you're a PvPer is pointless, and it just derails any discussion. Anyway, as I said, I don't care about what happens to the current version of PvP, and yes, I'm not going to play it as it is right now; it's an awful experience.

But I'm all in for testing a potential alternative PvP version. If Vengeance's results help fix the current PvP, then I'm happy for those who enjoy it. If Vengeance becomes a mode in its own right, much enhanced than what we saw so far, then I'm going to play it on a regular basis. If Vengeance gets deleted once testing is over, then I get at least 1 week of PvP every 3 months, while it lasts, that is fun when populations are balanced.

PvE has received an incredible amount of resources from the devs. PvP has one main zone and the devs couldn't be bothered to make even simple changes suggested by the players. Things are left half done, unexplained, ignored, mocked or given some of the worst excuses - while doing nothing, or something no one asked for. Why is clarity an unreasonable request?

This is patently false. Back in 2021, ZOS tested some players' ideas, like disabling crosshealing outside of groups or disabling proc sets, so yeah, devs bother from time to time. They also introduce things no one asked for, but since it's their game, they can do whatever they deem best, whether we agree or not.

Nobody is asking for a blind trust in ZOS, but rather that PvPers chill so they can access clarity of thinking and their reading skills again, and stop jumping to misguided conclusions like "Vengeance will replace all of PvP" or "PvEers hate us and want PvP deleted from the game."

Putting vengeance up as the only PvP option IS, IN FACT, forcing PvP players to do work for ZOS.

You're free to play another game, as, IN FACT, nobody is forced to participate in Vengeance tests. You can just do a week long break from ESO; think of it as an extended maintenance.

How many posts do you think you've made condemning those who've said they refuse to participate in Vengeance? I know I've read at least a few.

You've made it pretty obvious you're stance on vengeance is not a good faith stance.

aetherix8

Yes

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

ZOS keeps using a vocabulary like “experimenting”, etc. It is clear that they are testing different ideas and systems, and none of those has any guarantee of becoming permanent. Vengeance might disappear entirely once all data is collected. I’m not sure why PvPers are panicking so badly, I guess deep inside they know that current PvP is just too broken on many levels.

PvPer's see a ton of money going into the development of features they don't want to see in a FUTURE PvP environment so they've asked for clarity. Panic seems like a stretch but here you are.

PvEers see a ton of money going into the development of features they don't want to see and don't care about. They would rather see a new chapter with more quests.

On what grounds do PvPers reserve the exclusive right to decide what the FUTURE PvP will look like? What's wrong with having regular Cyrodiil and a second, Vengeance-like campaign, both enabled at the same time?

StihlReign wrote: »

We gave PvErs a simple solution via CP and an easy to purchase 2 pc set to stop them from getting bombed and ganked during events. It was nerfed in record time, about 2 weeks. The info is in the patch notes.

LOL. Since when do PvPers work for ZOS? PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers, and now are also trying hard to take away any possibility of an additional PvP mode from those who would welcome such an alternative.

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Reading comprehension and objectivity are severely lacking in any Vengeance discussion. Also, the discrimination against PvE mains' voices and opinions, even when they pvp regularly (or used to), is disappointing. It gives an image of a PvP community that is a self-proclaimed elite but one devoid of vision, open-mindedness, and the ability to embrace change.
Also devoid of reading skills.

I'm not a PvP main since beta; claiming on this forum that you're a PvPer is pointless, and it just derails any discussion. Anyway, as I said, I don't care about what happens to the current version of PvP, and yes, I'm not going to play it as it is right now; it's an awful experience.

But I'm all in for testing a potential alternative PvP version. If Vengeance's results help fix the current PvP, then I'm happy for those who enjoy it. If Vengeance becomes a mode in its own right, much enhanced than what we saw so far, then I'm going to play it on a regular basis. If Vengeance gets deleted once testing is over, then I get at least 1 week of PvP every 3 months, while it lasts, that is fun when populations are balanced.

PvE has received an incredible amount of resources from the devs. PvP has one main zone and the devs couldn't be bothered to make even simple changes suggested by the players. Things are left half done, unexplained, ignored, mocked or given some of the worst excuses - while doing nothing, or something no one asked for. Why is clarity an unreasonable request?

This is patently false. Back in 2021, ZOS tested some players' ideas, like disabling crosshealing outside of groups or disabling proc sets, so yeah, devs bother from time to time. They also introduce things no one asked for, but since it's their game, they can do whatever they deem best, whether we agree or not.

Nobody is asking for a blind trust in ZOS, but rather that PvPers chill so they can access clarity of thinking and their reading skills again, and stop jumping to misguided conclusions like "Vengeance will replace all of PvP" or "PvEers hate us and want PvP deleted from the game."

Putting vengeance up as the only PvP option IS, IN FACT, forcing PvP players to do work for ZOS.

You're free to play another game, as, IN FACT, nobody is forced to participate in Vengeance tests. You can just do a week long break from ESO; think of it as an extended maintenance.

How many posts do you think you've made condemning those who've said they refuse to participate in Vengeance? I know I've read at least a few.

You've made it pretty obvious you're stance on vengeance is not a good faith stance.

You're giving me far too much credit if you think that either my condemnation or praise actually affects people's choices regarding their participatation in the testing. Also, I'm wondering about an alternative pvp mode in quite a good faith, imo. You can ask yourself how denying other players an alternative mode they wish for is a "good faith stance"? But ofc, you're free to think whatever, just like you're free to refuse to participate in Vengeance.

StihlReign

Yes

aetherix8 wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

We gave PvErs a simple solution via CP and an easy to purchase 2 pc set (...).

AFAIK only ZOS retains the power to give systems or item sets to any player, PvE or PvP.

Then let me expand your knowledge of mail and trade.

Players can trade armor to players via mail or the Player to Player menu. Enjoy your 'new' power.

System: Definition - a set of principles or procedures according to which something is done; an organized framework or method.

Vulkunne

Yes

StihlReign wrote: »

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

1. What if PvEers figured they had better things to do than deal with op ballgroups, broken builds, lag, etc?

2. Are PvEers wrong to ask for a PvP mode where they stand a chance and one they enjoy?

3. Since when do PvPers work for ZOS?

4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways. In general, I suspect that PvEers don't really care either, they have other problems, like hats and economy. PvPers can try and dictate whatever they want to PvEers, it doesn't change that Cyro populations are shrinking.

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.

I've been with the game and participated in PvP, on and off again, for many years now. I think PvE is enjoyable as well and doing pledges, Trials, and so forth. I'm into many different things with this game.

That said, let's talk about PvP for just a moment. Now you say, 'Don't Play' ok. I don't know what is going on however more and more I keep running into people saying this, along with other things such as...

"If we don't agree with scott or argyl then we might as well not play the game." Not unlike other things expressed such as, "you're not with my EP Guild, therefore you cannot follow us between sieges." This is the same EP PvP guild mind you, that has 20-30 people just following them around late night, every night, doing exactly that. Yeah. And then there's other things like, "leave the server. we don't like you/your jokes/I'm an exclusive AD Guild officer and this faction does not need solo players." "This is my exclusive super duper uhh DC ball group and we don't like you, so we're going to stand here and watch AD murder you, just so you know you're not cool like we are and you're not one of us. Also, even though you played by our rules, asked for a scroll escort from Nik, we're going to hide behind the mile gate and let the AD Guild murder you. Even though we know they're there, we know they're waiting but we don't care about you." They stand there and watch me getting taken down when I reach the mile gate - couldn't even get a Rapid Regen. Nothing. Then AD does something similar by Mr Critter and his fantastic Guild telling everyone on AD to leave me to die because I took the hammer after their man died twice. AD Guild loitering around Alessia Mine side outer wall rather than run in and help waiting for me to die with the hammer they lost... again.

Ok, do you see what I'm saying? You don't see what I'm saying? These 'people' in the ball groups, pvp guilds and so forth, give nothing. ESO PvP is supposed to be something, as it was for a long time, where we all logged in to kill each other, helped each other out if not in the most basic sense of team cooperation and it's like this ugliness has crept in overtime and its making people hate this game because of it. This is why people are turning to Vengeance. This is why Vengeance is such a good thing because the ball groups, the pvp guilds, all this foolishness is checked. They don't reign supreme in the Vengeance environment. As they say, "we're not locked in here with you... you all are locked in here with us." And that's what makes Vengeance so special and desirable, contrary wise so hated by the other parties. In short, no inconvenience caused by Vengeance causes as much grief as we're used to receiving. That said, I'm usually solo player with good skills too btw.

You guys talk about standing a chance against ball groups and you say it's a skill issue. Really. What's the counter play to a ball group for probably most players in Cyrodiil? I can throw a negate, I can use siege, I can juggle torte with both hands, and it won't make a lick of difference. They're nigh unstoppable. Yes, there are tactics that work against them, but they are rare, they really require more teamwork than skill in execution. There is no counter play to a ball group. Ok you disagree then, fine. What skill should I whip out from my toolkit that reliably enable me to stand a chance against a ball group? Which one it be? A solo or casual player, or perhaps an organized group with comms, that is itself not a ball group.

There is none. And that's the problem. That's why Vengeance shines, will continue to shine like the freaking sun. Cause Cyrodiil is become a lost cause. I no longer login at PrimeTime. I login during the day and then leave. It's just bombers, grief bombers chasing me between keeps, why because they don't like me that's why. So now me and other solos, casuals, other organized groups have to lose because there's a special interest group exploiting game features meant for playing in groups and not meant to be exploited in this manner. Had a DC Sorc one time wiped over 200 AD for 3 or 4 hours by himself. Had a DC ball group do the same while trolling a scroll that others in same faction worked hard to get. They took, had their way with it and the ap and so forth and left the rest of us behind while successfully fighting off two factions for roughly 2 hours, just circling the lower map.

What's a ball group good for huh? A bomber is good for something, ok. But my experience in dealing with ball groups, consistently, is they only serve themselves. They don't rez... others, they don't communicate, they don't cooperate, but they hesitate when others need help. I have no use for those people at all. If we're not all there for a common goal they, why are we there? I don't care how much on here don't like me for saying that, but I am confident that if people were to experience some of the hell that some of us have been put thru with PvP in this game they might start to care. Maybe. I might be giving too much credit. Sometimes the problems in PvP, are due to the players themselves not ZOS fault. After all this time, should I just stop playing and just have to give up because of problems that ZOS won't fix? Might want to think about it before telling people to just don't play. I'm not giving up for anyone, but this is also not my problem to fix. It sucks that I have to stop playing because tacky people either want everything their way, with no reason or justification give for the way they treat other people or because of the fact that's PvP in Cyrodiil is so broken it's not even worth my time.

I know this is lengthy but yeah some of us still care. And we're not happy. If ZOS can fix some of this stuff, great we'll come back. But if um ESO goes the way of New World and gets real exclusive or other dead games like Half Life: Source where the admins who run the servers, similar to the pvp guilds and ball groups, have unlimited authority and a real strong do as I say and not as I do mentality then the game is already dead. Right now, we're all in limbo giving ZOS time to adjust, which is good, but waiting to see what's going to happen. I can't choose for everyone and I'm so sick and tired of people who don't know me making choices for me. That was never part of the plan here and not the ESO PvP that I remember.

StihlReign

Yes

Vulkunne wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

1. Don't play

I've been with the game and participated in PvP, on and off again, for many years now. I think PvE is enjoyable as well and doing pledges, Trials, and so forth. I'm into many different things with this game.

That said, let's talk about PvP for just a moment. Now you say, 'Don't Play' ok. I don't know what is going on however more and more I keep running into people saying this, along with other things such as...

Honestly, I understand your points and I don't discredit your experience in PvP. I believe the devs have enabled and created a toxic environment due to their choices. My responses above were really in direct response to that particular user who trolls the PvP community in their conversations.

What the devs are currently creating in Vengeance, is an environment that will not be much different than what we have currently in Grey Host. The heal stacking is back, it came in, in v.2 or test 2, which led to a falloff in participation in test 3. Test 4 will have perks and loadouts so we'll probably see a novel bump in participation, but also the same heal/buff/skill stacking behavior as GH which will lead to a further divide and probably a low pop for the side by side test. Cyrodiil still has environmental and economic advantages slighted towards one Alliance, there have been no announcements to address those, so that won't change.

Eventually the devs will land somewhere on something. The stated goal is a more performant Cyrodiil, not one that addresses the issues that make Cyrodiil's gameplay better for the players.

That announcement would involve 1000s of players returning to the game. Whenever they decide to address heal stacking, buff stacking, shield stacking, increase the size of large groups and include a dedicated marketing program...one campaign won't be enough.

Muizer

StihlReign wrote: »

What the devs are currently creating in Vengeance, is an environment that will not be much different than what we have currently in Grey Host.

Yeah the way I see it, Vengeance could be an opportunity to deal with some of PvP's fundamental problems, but I'm not at all confident that's what is going to happen. Ironically in part because it would probably alienate many PvPers who are still playing.

For instance, they could introduce an exclusion zone around the casters of AoEs (i.e. they all have to be targeted and the edge must not be closer than, say, 20 meters). That would seriously drain the power of stacked people tightly in close spaces and make effective group coordination a lot more challenging, wouldn't it? But I fear it won't happen, and they are once again going down that route of trying to counter group play with bomber builds and such (I actually typed a 'k' at the end there originally. Freudian slip).

YandereGirlfriend

Yes

Vulkunne wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

1. What if PvEers figured they had better things to do than deal with op ballgroups, broken builds, lag, etc?

2. Are PvEers wrong to ask for a PvP mode where they stand a chance and one they enjoy?

3. Since when do PvPers work for ZOS?

4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways. In general, I suspect that PvEers don't really care either, they have other problems, like hats and economy. PvPers can try and dictate whatever they want to PvEers, it doesn't change that Cyro populations are shrinking.

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.

I've been with the game and participated in PvP, on and off again, for many years now. I think PvE is enjoyable as well and doing pledges, Trials, and so forth. I'm into many different things with this game.

That said, let's talk about PvP for just a moment. Now you say, 'Don't Play' ok. I don't know what is going on however more and more I keep running into people saying this, along with other things such as...

"If we don't agree with scott or argyl then we might as well not play the game." Not unlike other things expressed such as, "you're not with my EP Guild, therefore you cannot follow us between sieges." This is the same EP PvP guild mind you, that has 20-30 people just following them around late night, every night, doing exactly that. Yeah. And then there's other things like, "leave the server. we don't like you/your jokes/I'm an exclusive AD Guild officer and this faction does not need solo players." "This is my exclusive super duper uhh DC ball group and we don't like you, so we're going to stand here and watch AD murder you, just so you know you're not cool like we are and you're not one of us. Also, even though you played by our rules, asked for a scroll escort from Nik, we're going to hide behind the mile gate and let the AD Guild murder you. Even though we know they're there, we know they're waiting but we don't care about you." They stand there and watch me getting taken down when I reach the mile gate - couldn't even get a Rapid Regen. Nothing. Then AD does something similar by Mr Critter and his fantastic Guild telling everyone on AD to leave me to die because I took the hammer after their man died twice. AD Guild loitering around Alessia Mine side outer wall rather than run in and help waiting for me to die with the hammer they lost... again.

Ok, do you see what I'm saying? You don't see what I'm saying? These 'people' in the ball groups, pvp guilds and so forth, give nothing. ESO PvP is supposed to be something, as it was for a long time, where we all logged in to kill each other, helped each other out if not in the most basic sense of team cooperation and it's like this ugliness has crept in overtime and its making people hate this game because of it. This is why people are turning to Vengeance. This is why Vengeance is such a good thing because the ball groups, the pvp guilds, all this foolishness is checked. They don't reign supreme in the Vengeance environment. As they say, "we're not locked in here with you... you all are locked in here with us." And that's what makes Vengeance so special and desirable, contrary wise so hated by the other parties. In short, no inconvenience caused by Vengeance causes as much grief as we're used to receiving. That said, I'm usually solo player with good skills too btw.

You guys talk about standing a chance against ball groups and you say it's a skill issue. Really. What's the counter play to a ball group for probably most players in Cyrodiil? I can throw a negate, I can use siege, I can juggle torte with both hands, and it won't make a lick of difference. They're nigh unstoppable. Yes, there are tactics that work against them, but they are rare, they really require more teamwork than skill in execution. There is no counter play to a ball group. Ok you disagree then, fine. What skill should I whip out from my toolkit that reliably enable me to stand a chance against a ball group? Which one it be? A solo or casual player, or perhaps an organized group with comms, that is itself not a ball group.

There is none. And that's the problem. That's why Vengeance shines, will continue to shine like the freaking sun. Cause Cyrodiil is become a lost cause. I no longer login at PrimeTime. I login during the day and then leave. It's just bombers, grief bombers chasing me between keeps, why because they don't like me that's why. So now me and other solos, casuals, other organized groups have to lose because there's a special interest group exploiting game features meant for playing in groups and not meant to be exploited in this manner. Had a DC Sorc one time wiped over 200 AD for 3 or 4 hours by himself. Had a DC ball group do the same while trolling a scroll that others in same faction worked hard to get. They took, had their way with it and the ap and so forth and left the rest of us behind while successfully fighting off two factions for roughly 2 hours, just circling the lower map.

What's a ball group good for huh? A bomber is good for something, ok. But my experience in dealing with ball groups, consistently, is they only serve themselves. They don't rez... others, they don't communicate, they don't cooperate, but they hesitate when others need help. I have no use for those people at all. If we're not all there for a common goal they, why are we there? I don't care how much on here don't like me for saying that, but I am confident that if people were to experience some of the hell that some of us have been put thru with PvP in this game they might start to care. Maybe. I might be giving too much credit. Sometimes the problems in PvP, are due to the players themselves not ZOS fault. After all this time, should I just stop playing and just have to give up because of problems that ZOS won't fix? Might want to think about it before telling people to just don't play. I'm not giving up for anyone, but this is also not my problem to fix. It sucks that I have to stop playing because tacky people either want everything their way, with no reason or justification give for the way they treat other people or because of the fact that's PvP in Cyrodiil is so broken it's not even worth my time.

I know this is lengthy but yeah some of us still care. And we're not happy. If ZOS can fix some of this stuff, great we'll come back. But if um ESO goes the way of New World and gets real exclusive or other dead games like Half Life: Source where the admins who run the servers, similar to the pvp guilds and ball groups, have unlimited authority and a real strong do as I say and not as I do mentality then the game is already dead. Right now, we're all in limbo giving ZOS time to adjust, which is good, but waiting to see what's going to happen. I can't choose for everyone and I'm so sick and tired of people who don't know me making choices for me. That was never part of the plan here and not the ESO PvP that I remember.

Nobody is trying to take your Vengeance from you. Grey Host players simply expect the same grace in return.

aetherix8

Yes

StihlReign wrote: »

Honestly, I understand your points and I don't discredit your experience in PvP. I believe the devs have enabled and created a toxic environment due to their choices.

So, a toxic environment is solely due to the devs, and has absolutely nothing to do with players being toxic? Lol, no, the devs didn't create a toxic environment; the players did, both in PvP and PvE. What is ZOS' responsibility is to keep toxicity in check, and they could be doing better at it, but that is different from creating it. And to say that it is all ZOS' fault basically means that players don't have to do any effort to be kinder, more inclusive and less toxic in general.

StihlReign wrote: »

My responses above were really in direct response to that particular user who trolls the PvP community in their conversations.

Another innaccurate statement. That my point of view is different from yours it doesn't mean I'm trolling. Not a single post of mine about Vengeance got snipped or deleted by the mods. Therefore, I'm just respectfully expressing my opinions, whether you like them or not.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

1. What if PvEers figured they had better things to do than deal with op ballgroups, broken builds, lag, etc?

2. Are PvEers wrong to ask for a PvP mode where they stand a chance and one they enjoy?

3. Since when do PvPers work for ZOS?

4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways. In general, I suspect that PvEers don't really care either, they have other problems, like hats and economy. PvPers can try and dictate whatever they want to PvEers, it doesn't change that Cyro populations are shrinking.

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.

I've been with the game and participated in PvP, on and off again, for many years now. I think PvE is enjoyable as well and doing pledges, Trials, and so forth. I'm into many different things with this game.

That said, let's talk about PvP for just a moment. Now you say, 'Don't Play' ok. I don't know what is going on however more and more I keep running into people saying this, along with other things such as...

"If we don't agree with scott or argyl then we might as well not play the game." Not unlike other things expressed such as, "you're not with my EP Guild, therefore you cannot follow us between sieges." This is the same EP PvP guild mind you, that has 20-30 people just following them around late night, every night, doing exactly that. Yeah. And then there's other things like, "leave the server. we don't like you/your jokes/I'm an exclusive AD Guild officer and this faction does not need solo players." "This is my exclusive super duper uhh DC ball group and we don't like you, so we're going to stand here and watch AD murder you, just so you know you're not cool like we are and you're not one of us. Also, even though you played by our rules, asked for a scroll escort from Nik, we're going to hide behind the mile gate and let the AD Guild murder you. Even though we know they're there, we know they're waiting but we don't care about you." They stand there and watch me getting taken down when I reach the mile gate - couldn't even get a Rapid Regen. Nothing. Then AD does something similar by Mr Critter and his fantastic Guild telling everyone on AD to leave me to die because I took the hammer after their man died twice. AD Guild loitering around Alessia Mine side outer wall rather than run in and help waiting for me to die with the hammer they lost... again.

Ok, do you see what I'm saying? You don't see what I'm saying? These 'people' in the ball groups, pvp guilds and so forth, give nothing. ESO PvP is supposed to be something, as it was for a long time, where we all logged in to kill each other, helped each other out if not in the most basic sense of team cooperation and it's like this ugliness has crept in overtime and its making people hate this game because of it. This is why people are turning to Vengeance. This is why Vengeance is such a good thing because the ball groups, the pvp guilds, all this foolishness is checked. They don't reign supreme in the Vengeance environment. As they say, "we're not locked in here with you... you all are locked in here with us." And that's what makes Vengeance so special and desirable, contrary wise so hated by the other parties. In short, no inconvenience caused by Vengeance causes as much grief as we're used to receiving. That said, I'm usually solo player with good skills too btw.

You guys talk about standing a chance against ball groups and you say it's a skill issue. Really. What's the counter play to a ball group for probably most players in Cyrodiil? I can throw a negate, I can use siege, I can juggle torte with both hands, and it won't make a lick of difference. They're nigh unstoppable. Yes, there are tactics that work against them, but they are rare, they really require more teamwork than skill in execution. There is no counter play to a ball group. Ok you disagree then, fine. What skill should I whip out from my toolkit that reliably enable me to stand a chance against a ball group? Which one it be? A solo or casual player, or perhaps an organized group with comms, that is itself not a ball group.

There is none. And that's the problem. That's why Vengeance shines, will continue to shine like the freaking sun. Cause Cyrodiil is become a lost cause. I no longer login at PrimeTime. I login during the day and then leave. It's just bombers, grief bombers chasing me between keeps, why because they don't like me that's why. So now me and other solos, casuals, other organized groups have to lose because there's a special interest group exploiting game features meant for playing in groups and not meant to be exploited in this manner. Had a DC Sorc one time wiped over 200 AD for 3 or 4 hours by himself. Had a DC ball group do the same while trolling a scroll that others in same faction worked hard to get. They took, had their way with it and the ap and so forth and left the rest of us behind while successfully fighting off two factions for roughly 2 hours, just circling the lower map.

What's a ball group good for huh? A bomber is good for something, ok. But my experience in dealing with ball groups, consistently, is they only serve themselves. They don't rez... others, they don't communicate, they don't cooperate, but they hesitate when others need help. I have no use for those people at all. If we're not all there for a common goal they, why are we there? I don't care how much on here don't like me for saying that, but I am confident that if people were to experience some of the hell that some of us have been put thru with PvP in this game they might start to care. Maybe. I might be giving too much credit. Sometimes the problems in PvP, are due to the players themselves not ZOS fault. After all this time, should I just stop playing and just have to give up because of problems that ZOS won't fix? Might want to think about it before telling people to just don't play. I'm not giving up for anyone, but this is also not my problem to fix. It sucks that I have to stop playing because tacky people either want everything their way, with no reason or justification give for the way they treat other people or because of the fact that's PvP in Cyrodiil is so broken it's not even worth my time.

I know this is lengthy but yeah some of us still care. And we're not happy. If ZOS can fix some of this stuff, great we'll come back. But if um ESO goes the way of New World and gets real exclusive or other dead games like Half Life: Source where the admins who run the servers, similar to the pvp guilds and ball groups, have unlimited authority and a real strong do as I say and not as I do mentality then the game is already dead. Right now, we're all in limbo giving ZOS time to adjust, which is good, but waiting to see what's going to happen. I can't choose for everyone and I'm so sick and tired of people who don't know me making choices for me. That was never part of the plan here and not the ESO PvP that I remember.

Nobody is trying to take your Vengeance from you. Grey Host players simply expect the same grace in return.

Nobody is trying to take your Grey Host from you. Vengeance enthusiasts simply expect the same grace in return.

JustLovely

Yes

aetherix8 wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

Honestly, I understand your points and I don't discredit your experience in PvP. I believe the devs have enabled and created a toxic environment due to their choices.

So, a toxic environment is solely due to the devs, and has absolutely nothing to do with players being toxic? Lol, no, the devs didn't create a toxic environment; the players did, both in PvP and PvE. What is ZOS' responsibility is to keep toxicity in check, and they could be doing better at it, but that is different from creating it. And to say that it is all ZOS' fault basically means that players don't have to do any effort to be kinder, more inclusive and less toxic in general.

StihlReign wrote: »

My responses above were really in direct response to that particular user who trolls the PvP community in their conversations.

Another innaccurate statement. That my point of view is different from yours it doesn't mean I'm trolling. Not a single post of mine about Vengeance got snipped or deleted by the mods. Therefore, I'm just respectfully expressing my opinions, whether you like them or not.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

1. What if PvEers figured they had better things to do than deal with op ballgroups, broken builds, lag, etc?

2. Are PvEers wrong to ask for a PvP mode where they stand a chance and one they enjoy?

3. Since when do PvPers work for ZOS?

4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways. In general, I suspect that PvEers don't really care either, they have other problems, like hats and economy. PvPers can try and dictate whatever they want to PvEers, it doesn't change that Cyro populations are shrinking.

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.

I've been with the game and participated in PvP, on and off again, for many years now. I think PvE is enjoyable as well and doing pledges, Trials, and so forth. I'm into many different things with this game.

That said, let's talk about PvP for just a moment. Now you say, 'Don't Play' ok. I don't know what is going on however more and more I keep running into people saying this, along with other things such as...

"If we don't agree with scott or argyl then we might as well not play the game." Not unlike other things expressed such as, "you're not with my EP Guild, therefore you cannot follow us between sieges." This is the same EP PvP guild mind you, that has 20-30 people just following them around late night, every night, doing exactly that. Yeah. And then there's other things like, "leave the server. we don't like you/your jokes/I'm an exclusive AD Guild officer and this faction does not need solo players." "This is my exclusive super duper uhh DC ball group and we don't like you, so we're going to stand here and watch AD murder you, just so you know you're not cool like we are and you're not one of us. Also, even though you played by our rules, asked for a scroll escort from Nik, we're going to hide behind the mile gate and let the AD Guild murder you. Even though we know they're there, we know they're waiting but we don't care about you." They stand there and watch me getting taken down when I reach the mile gate - couldn't even get a Rapid Regen. Nothing. Then AD does something similar by Mr Critter and his fantastic Guild telling everyone on AD to leave me to die because I took the hammer after their man died twice. AD Guild loitering around Alessia Mine side outer wall rather than run in and help waiting for me to die with the hammer they lost... again.

Ok, do you see what I'm saying? You don't see what I'm saying? These 'people' in the ball groups, pvp guilds and so forth, give nothing. ESO PvP is supposed to be something, as it was for a long time, where we all logged in to kill each other, helped each other out if not in the most basic sense of team cooperation and it's like this ugliness has crept in overtime and its making people hate this game because of it. This is why people are turning to Vengeance. This is why Vengeance is such a good thing because the ball groups, the pvp guilds, all this foolishness is checked. They don't reign supreme in the Vengeance environment. As they say, "we're not locked in here with you... you all are locked in here with us." And that's what makes Vengeance so special and desirable, contrary wise so hated by the other parties. In short, no inconvenience caused by Vengeance causes as much grief as we're used to receiving. That said, I'm usually solo player with good skills too btw.

You guys talk about standing a chance against ball groups and you say it's a skill issue. Really. What's the counter play to a ball group for probably most players in Cyrodiil? I can throw a negate, I can use siege, I can juggle torte with both hands, and it won't make a lick of difference. They're nigh unstoppable. Yes, there are tactics that work against them, but they are rare, they really require more teamwork than skill in execution. There is no counter play to a ball group. Ok you disagree then, fine. What skill should I whip out from my toolkit that reliably enable me to stand a chance against a ball group? Which one it be? A solo or casual player, or perhaps an organized group with comms, that is itself not a ball group.

There is none. And that's the problem. That's why Vengeance shines, will continue to shine like the freaking sun. Cause Cyrodiil is become a lost cause. I no longer login at PrimeTime. I login during the day and then leave. It's just bombers, grief bombers chasing me between keeps, why because they don't like me that's why. So now me and other solos, casuals, other organized groups have to lose because there's a special interest group exploiting game features meant for playing in groups and not meant to be exploited in this manner. Had a DC Sorc one time wiped over 200 AD for 3 or 4 hours by himself. Had a DC ball group do the same while trolling a scroll that others in same faction worked hard to get. They took, had their way with it and the ap and so forth and left the rest of us behind while successfully fighting off two factions for roughly 2 hours, just circling the lower map.

What's a ball group good for huh? A bomber is good for something, ok. But my experience in dealing with ball groups, consistently, is they only serve themselves. They don't rez... others, they don't communicate, they don't cooperate, but they hesitate when others need help. I have no use for those people at all. If we're not all there for a common goal they, why are we there? I don't care how much on here don't like me for saying that, but I am confident that if people were to experience some of the hell that some of us have been put thru with PvP in this game they might start to care. Maybe. I might be giving too much credit. Sometimes the problems in PvP, are due to the players themselves not ZOS fault. After all this time, should I just stop playing and just have to give up because of problems that ZOS won't fix? Might want to think about it before telling people to just don't play. I'm not giving up for anyone, but this is also not my problem to fix. It sucks that I have to stop playing because tacky people either want everything their way, with no reason or justification give for the way they treat other people or because of the fact that's PvP in Cyrodiil is so broken it's not even worth my time.

I know this is lengthy but yeah some of us still care. And we're not happy. If ZOS can fix some of this stuff, great we'll come back. But if um ESO goes the way of New World and gets real exclusive or other dead games like Half Life: Source where the admins who run the servers, similar to the pvp guilds and ball groups, have unlimited authority and a real strong do as I say and not as I do mentality then the game is already dead. Right now, we're all in limbo giving ZOS time to adjust, which is good, but waiting to see what's going to happen. I can't choose for everyone and I'm so sick and tired of people who don't know me making choices for me. That was never part of the plan here and not the ESO PvP that I remember.

Nobody is trying to take your Vengeance from you. Grey Host players simply expect the same grace in return.

Nobody is trying to take your Grey Host from you. Vengeance enthusiasts simply expect the same grace in return.

"Thou doth protest too much"

aetherix8

Yes

JustLovely wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

Honestly, I understand your points and I don't discredit your experience in PvP. I believe the devs have enabled and created a toxic environment due to their choices.

So, a toxic environment is solely due to the devs, and has absolutely nothing to do with players being toxic? Lol, no, the devs didn't create a toxic environment; the players did, both in PvP and PvE. What is ZOS' responsibility is to keep toxicity in check, and they could be doing better at it, but that is different from creating it. And to say that it is all ZOS' fault basically means that players don't have to do any effort to be kinder, more inclusive and less toxic in general.

StihlReign wrote: »

My responses above were really in direct response to that particular user who trolls the PvP community in their conversations.

Another innaccurate statement. That my point of view is different from yours it doesn't mean I'm trolling. Not a single post of mine about Vengeance got snipped or deleted by the mods. Therefore, I'm just respectfully expressing my opinions, whether you like them or not.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

1. What if PvEers figured they had better things to do than deal with op ballgroups, broken builds, lag, etc?

2. Are PvEers wrong to ask for a PvP mode where they stand a chance and one they enjoy?

3. Since when do PvPers work for ZOS?

4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways. In general, I suspect that PvEers don't really care either, they have other problems, like hats and economy. PvPers can try and dictate whatever they want to PvEers, it doesn't change that Cyro populations are shrinking.

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.

I've been with the game and participated in PvP, on and off again, for many years now. I think PvE is enjoyable as well and doing pledges, Trials, and so forth. I'm into many different things with this game.

That said, let's talk about PvP for just a moment. Now you say, 'Don't Play' ok. I don't know what is going on however more and more I keep running into people saying this, along with other things such as...

"If we don't agree with scott or argyl then we might as well not play the game." Not unlike other things expressed such as, "you're not with my EP Guild, therefore you cannot follow us between sieges." This is the same EP PvP guild mind you, that has 20-30 people just following them around late night, every night, doing exactly that. Yeah. And then there's other things like, "leave the server. we don't like you/your jokes/I'm an exclusive AD Guild officer and this faction does not need solo players." "This is my exclusive super duper uhh DC ball group and we don't like you, so we're going to stand here and watch AD murder you, just so you know you're not cool like we are and you're not one of us. Also, even though you played by our rules, asked for a scroll escort from Nik, we're going to hide behind the mile gate and let the AD Guild murder you. Even though we know they're there, we know they're waiting but we don't care about you." They stand there and watch me getting taken down when I reach the mile gate - couldn't even get a Rapid Regen. Nothing. Then AD does something similar by Mr Critter and his fantastic Guild telling everyone on AD to leave me to die because I took the hammer after their man died twice. AD Guild loitering around Alessia Mine side outer wall rather than run in and help waiting for me to die with the hammer they lost... again.

Ok, do you see what I'm saying? You don't see what I'm saying? These 'people' in the ball groups, pvp guilds and so forth, give nothing. ESO PvP is supposed to be something, as it was for a long time, where we all logged in to kill each other, helped each other out if not in the most basic sense of team cooperation and it's like this ugliness has crept in overtime and its making people hate this game because of it. This is why people are turning to Vengeance. This is why Vengeance is such a good thing because the ball groups, the pvp guilds, all this foolishness is checked. They don't reign supreme in the Vengeance environment. As they say, "we're not locked in here with you... you all are locked in here with us." And that's what makes Vengeance so special and desirable, contrary wise so hated by the other parties. In short, no inconvenience caused by Vengeance causes as much grief as we're used to receiving. That said, I'm usually solo player with good skills too btw.

You guys talk about standing a chance against ball groups and you say it's a skill issue. Really. What's the counter play to a ball group for probably most players in Cyrodiil? I can throw a negate, I can use siege, I can juggle torte with both hands, and it won't make a lick of difference. They're nigh unstoppable. Yes, there are tactics that work against them, but they are rare, they really require more teamwork than skill in execution. There is no counter play to a ball group. Ok you disagree then, fine. What skill should I whip out from my toolkit that reliably enable me to stand a chance against a ball group? Which one it be? A solo or casual player, or perhaps an organized group with comms, that is itself not a ball group.

There is none. And that's the problem. That's why Vengeance shines, will continue to shine like the freaking sun. Cause Cyrodiil is become a lost cause. I no longer login at PrimeTime. I login during the day and then leave. It's just bombers, grief bombers chasing me between keeps, why because they don't like me that's why. So now me and other solos, casuals, other organized groups have to lose because there's a special interest group exploiting game features meant for playing in groups and not meant to be exploited in this manner. Had a DC Sorc one time wiped over 200 AD for 3 or 4 hours by himself. Had a DC ball group do the same while trolling a scroll that others in same faction worked hard to get. They took, had their way with it and the ap and so forth and left the rest of us behind while successfully fighting off two factions for roughly 2 hours, just circling the lower map.

What's a ball group good for huh? A bomber is good for something, ok. But my experience in dealing with ball groups, consistently, is they only serve themselves. They don't rez... others, they don't communicate, they don't cooperate, but they hesitate when others need help. I have no use for those people at all. If we're not all there for a common goal they, why are we there? I don't care how much on here don't like me for saying that, but I am confident that if people were to experience some of the hell that some of us have been put thru with PvP in this game they might start to care. Maybe. I might be giving too much credit. Sometimes the problems in PvP, are due to the players themselves not ZOS fault. After all this time, should I just stop playing and just have to give up because of problems that ZOS won't fix? Might want to think about it before telling people to just don't play. I'm not giving up for anyone, but this is also not my problem to fix. It sucks that I have to stop playing because tacky people either want everything their way, with no reason or justification give for the way they treat other people or because of the fact that's PvP in Cyrodiil is so broken it's not even worth my time.

I know this is lengthy but yeah some of us still care. And we're not happy. If ZOS can fix some of this stuff, great we'll come back. But if um ESO goes the way of New World and gets real exclusive or other dead games like Half Life: Source where the admins who run the servers, similar to the pvp guilds and ball groups, have unlimited authority and a real strong do as I say and not as I do mentality then the game is already dead. Right now, we're all in limbo giving ZOS time to adjust, which is good, but waiting to see what's going to happen. I can't choose for everyone and I'm so sick and tired of people who don't know me making choices for me. That was never part of the plan here and not the ESO PvP that I remember.

Nobody is trying to take your Vengeance from you. Grey Host players simply expect the same grace in return.

Nobody is trying to take your Grey Host from you. Vengeance enthusiasts simply expect the same grace in return.

"Thou doth protest too much"

Yes, because too many forum users are trying to silence any voice that diverges from the majority.
My opinions are perhaps shared by a minority, perhaps unpopular, but that doesn't make them trolling or without merit.

StihlReign

Yes

aetherix8 wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

Honestly, I understand your points and I don't discredit your experience in PvP. I believe the devs have enabled and created a toxic environment due to their choices.

So, a toxic environment is solely due to the devs, and has absolutely nothing to do with players being toxic?

StihlReign wrote: »

My responses above were really in direct response to that particular user who trolls the PvP community in their conversations.

StihlReign

Yes

aetherix8 wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

Honestly, I understand your points and I don't discredit your experience in PvP. I believe the devs have enabled and created a toxic environment due to their choices.

So, a toxic environment is solely due to the devs, and has absolutely nothing to do with players being toxic? Lol, no, the devs didn't create a toxic environment.

StihlReign wrote: »

My responses above were really in direct response to that particular user who trolls the PvP community in their conversations.

Another innaccurate statement. That my point of view is different from yours it doesn't mean I'm trolling. Not a single post of mine about Vengeance got snipped or deleted by the mods.
4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways.

Iriidius

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

1. What if PvEers figured they had better things to do than deal with op ballgroups, broken builds, lag, etc?

2. Are PvEers wrong to ask for a PvP mode where they stand a chance and one they enjoy?

3. Since when do PvPers work for ZOS?

4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways. In general, I suspect that PvEers don't really care either, they have other problems, like hats and economy. PvPers can try and dictate whatever they want to PvEers, it doesn't change that Cyro populations are shrinking.

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.

I've been with the game and participated in PvP, on and off again, for many years now. I think PvE is enjoyable as well and doing pledges, Trials, and so forth. I'm into many different things with this game.

That said, let's talk about PvP for just a moment. Now you say, 'Don't Play' ok. I don't know what is going on however more and more I keep running into people saying this, along with other things such as...

"If we don't agree with scott or argyl then we might as well not play the game." Not unlike other things expressed such as, "you're not with my EP Guild, therefore you cannot follow us between sieges." This is the same EP PvP guild mind you, that has 20-30 people just following them around late night, every night, doing exactly that. Yeah. And then there's other things like, "leave the server. we don't like you/your jokes/I'm an exclusive AD Guild officer and this faction does not need solo players." "This is my exclusive super duper uhh DC ball group and we don't like you, so we're going to stand here and watch AD murder you, just so you know you're not cool like we are and you're not one of us. Also, even though you played by our rules, asked for a scroll escort from Nik, we're going to hide behind the mile gate and let the AD Guild murder you. Even though we know they're there, we know they're waiting but we don't care about you." They stand there and watch me getting taken down when I reach the mile gate - couldn't even get a Rapid Regen. Nothing. Then AD does something similar by Mr Critter and his fantastic Guild telling everyone on AD to leave me to die because I took the hammer after their man died twice. AD Guild loitering around Alessia Mine side outer wall rather than run in and help waiting for me to die with the hammer they lost... again.

Ok, do you see what I'm saying? You don't see what I'm saying? These 'people' in the ball groups, pvp guilds and so forth, give nothing. ESO PvP is supposed to be something, as it was for a long time, where we all logged in to kill each other, helped each other out if not in the most basic sense of team cooperation and it's like this ugliness has crept in overtime and its making people hate this game because of it. This is why people are turning to Vengeance. This is why Vengeance is such a good thing because the ball groups, the pvp guilds, all this foolishness is checked. They don't reign supreme in the Vengeance environment. As they say, "we're not locked in here with you... you all are locked in here with us." And that's what makes Vengeance so special and desirable, contrary wise so hated by the other parties. In short, no inconvenience caused by Vengeance causes as much grief as we're used to receiving. That said, I'm usually solo player with good skills too btw.

You guys talk about standing a chance against ball groups and you say it's a skill issue. Really. What's the counter play to a ball group for probably most players in Cyrodiil? I can throw a negate, I can use siege, I can juggle torte with both hands, and it won't make a lick of difference. They're nigh unstoppable. Yes, there are tactics that work against them, but they are rare, they really require more teamwork than skill in execution. There is no counter play to a ball group. Ok you disagree then, fine. What skill should I whip out from my toolkit that reliably enable me to stand a chance against a ball group? Which one it be? A solo or casual player, or perhaps an organized group with comms, that is itself not a ball group.

There is none. And that's the problem. That's why Vengeance shines, will continue to shine like the freaking sun. Cause Cyrodiil is become a lost cause. I no longer login at PrimeTime. I login during the day and then leave. It's just bombers, grief bombers chasing me between keeps, why because they don't like me that's why. So now me and other solos, casuals, other organized groups have to lose because there's a special interest group exploiting game features meant for playing in groups and not meant to be exploited in this manner. Had a DC Sorc one time wiped over 200 AD for 3 or 4 hours by himself. Had a DC ball group do the same while trolling a scroll that others in same faction worked hard to get. They took, had their way with it and the ap and so forth and left the rest of us behind while successfully fighting off two factions for roughly 2 hours, just circling the lower map.

What's a ball group good for huh? A bomber is good for something, ok. But my experience in dealing with ball groups, consistently, is they only serve themselves. They don't rez... others, they don't communicate, they don't cooperate, but they hesitate when others need help. I have no use for those people at all. If we're not all there for a common goal they, why are we there? I don't care how much on here don't like me for saying that, but I am confident that if people were to experience some of the hell that some of us have been put thru with PvP in this game they might start to care. Maybe. I might be giving too much credit. Sometimes the problems in PvP, are due to the players themselves not ZOS fault. After all this time, should I just stop playing and just have to give up because of problems that ZOS won't fix? Might want to think about it before telling people to just don't play. I'm not giving up for anyone, but this is also not my problem to fix. It sucks that I have to stop playing because tacky people either want everything their way, with no reason or justification give for the way they treat other people or because of the fact that's PvP in Cyrodiil is so broken it's not even worth my time.

I know this is lengthy but yeah some of us still care. And we're not happy. If ZOS can fix some of this stuff, great we'll come back. But if um ESO goes the way of New World and gets real exclusive or other dead games like Half Life: Source where the admins who run the servers, similar to the pvp guilds and ball groups, have unlimited authority and a real strong do as I say and not as I do mentality then the game is already dead. Right now, we're all in limbo giving ZOS time to adjust, which is good, but waiting to see what's going to happen. I can't choose for everyone and I'm so sick and tired of people who don't know me making choices for me. That was never part of the plan here and not the ESO PvP that I remember.

Nobody is trying to take your Vengeance from you. Grey Host players simply expect the same grace in return.

Sure they try taking Vengeance away. Most anti-Vengeance comments here sound like this:

„Stop Vengeance now! Nobody plays it! Real PvP Players are not allowed to PvP! We are forced to play this garbage! Vengeance is no skill zergfest, supporters are all unskilled, PvEr, bots and won’t play it anyway! Without builds it is no preparation for GreyHost either! Making it an alternative is impossible and same as removing GreyHost because ZOS won’t support two versions of Cyrodiil“
(Why wouldn’t they if both are populated and if they take one away most players would rather quit than play other? And why should players use it only to prepare making builds for GreyHost?)

Almost nobody preferring GreyHost wants to allow Vengeance supporters to play there while most Vengeance supporters want it as one of multiple options.

SaffronCitrusflower

Yes

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

Honestly, I understand your points and I don't discredit your experience in PvP. I believe the devs have enabled and created a toxic environment due to their choices.

So, a toxic environment is solely due to the devs, and has absolutely nothing to do with players being toxic? Lol, no, the devs didn't create a toxic environment.

StihlReign wrote: »

My responses above were really in direct response to that particular user who trolls the PvP community in their conversations.

Another innaccurate statement. That my point of view is different from yours it doesn't mean I'm trolling. Not a single post of mine about Vengeance got snipped or deleted by the mods.
4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways.

"Another innaccurate statement. That my point of view is different from yours it doesn't mean I'm trolling. Not a single post of mine about Vengeance got snipped or deleted by the mods.
4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways."

This is how we know they're not arguing in good faith. They just want an easier version of Cyrodiil because they haven't been able to compete in live Cyrodiil PvP.

My advice to this poster, put in the same time and effort the rest of us have and you'll be fine. ....probably. There are some that just can't keep up in end game trials and PvP and that's just the way it goes. There is a steep learning curve for sure, but it's the same learning curve for everyone.

SneaK

Yes

Iriidius wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

1. What if PvEers figured they had better things to do than deal with op ballgroups, broken builds, lag, etc?

2. Are PvEers wrong to ask for a PvP mode where they stand a chance and one they enjoy?

3. Since when do PvPers work for ZOS?

4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways. In general, I suspect that PvEers don't really care either, they have other problems, like hats and economy. PvPers can try and dictate whatever they want to PvEers, it doesn't change that Cyro populations are shrinking.

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.

I've been with the game and participated in PvP, on and off again, for many years now. I think PvE is enjoyable as well and doing pledges, Trials, and so forth. I'm into many different things with this game.

That said, let's talk about PvP for just a moment. Now you say, 'Don't Play' ok. I don't know what is going on however more and more I keep running into people saying this, along with other things such as...

"If we don't agree with scott or argyl then we might as well not play the game." Not unlike other things expressed such as, "you're not with my EP Guild, therefore you cannot follow us between sieges." This is the same EP PvP guild mind you, that has 20-30 people just following them around late night, every night, doing exactly that. Yeah. And then there's other things like, "leave the server. we don't like you/your jokes/I'm an exclusive AD Guild officer and this faction does not need solo players." "This is my exclusive super duper uhh DC ball group and we don't like you, so we're going to stand here and watch AD murder you, just so you know you're not cool like we are and you're not one of us. Also, even though you played by our rules, asked for a scroll escort from Nik, we're going to hide behind the mile gate and let the AD Guild murder you. Even though we know they're there, we know they're waiting but we don't care about you." They stand there and watch me getting taken down when I reach the mile gate - couldn't even get a Rapid Regen. Nothing. Then AD does something similar by Mr Critter and his fantastic Guild telling everyone on AD to leave me to die because I took the hammer after their man died twice. AD Guild loitering around Alessia Mine side outer wall rather than run in and help waiting for me to die with the hammer they lost... again.

Ok, do you see what I'm saying? You don't see what I'm saying? These 'people' in the ball groups, pvp guilds and so forth, give nothing. ESO PvP is supposed to be something, as it was for a long time, where we all logged in to kill each other, helped each other out if not in the most basic sense of team cooperation and it's like this ugliness has crept in overtime and its making people hate this game because of it. This is why people are turning to Vengeance. This is why Vengeance is such a good thing because the ball groups, the pvp guilds, all this foolishness is checked. They don't reign supreme in the Vengeance environment. As they say, "we're not locked in here with you... you all are locked in here with us." And that's what makes Vengeance so special and desirable, contrary wise so hated by the other parties. In short, no inconvenience caused by Vengeance causes as much grief as we're used to receiving. That said, I'm usually solo player with good skills too btw.

You guys talk about standing a chance against ball groups and you say it's a skill issue. Really. What's the counter play to a ball group for probably most players in Cyrodiil? I can throw a negate, I can use siege, I can juggle torte with both hands, and it won't make a lick of difference. They're nigh unstoppable. Yes, there are tactics that work against them, but they are rare, they really require more teamwork than skill in execution. There is no counter play to a ball group. Ok you disagree then, fine. What skill should I whip out from my toolkit that reliably enable me to stand a chance against a ball group? Which one it be? A solo or casual player, or perhaps an organized group with comms, that is itself not a ball group.

There is none. And that's the problem. That's why Vengeance shines, will continue to shine like the freaking sun. Cause Cyrodiil is become a lost cause. I no longer login at PrimeTime. I login during the day and then leave. It's just bombers, grief bombers chasing me between keeps, why because they don't like me that's why. So now me and other solos, casuals, other organized groups have to lose because there's a special interest group exploiting game features meant for playing in groups and not meant to be exploited in this manner. Had a DC Sorc one time wiped over 200 AD for 3 or 4 hours by himself. Had a DC ball group do the same while trolling a scroll that others in same faction worked hard to get. They took, had their way with it and the ap and so forth and left the rest of us behind while successfully fighting off two factions for roughly 2 hours, just circling the lower map.

What's a ball group good for huh? A bomber is good for something, ok. But my experience in dealing with ball groups, consistently, is they only serve themselves. They don't rez... others, they don't communicate, they don't cooperate, but they hesitate when others need help. I have no use for those people at all. If we're not all there for a common goal they, why are we there? I don't care how much on here don't like me for saying that, but I am confident that if people were to experience some of the hell that some of us have been put thru with PvP in this game they might start to care. Maybe. I might be giving too much credit. Sometimes the problems in PvP, are due to the players themselves not ZOS fault. After all this time, should I just stop playing and just have to give up because of problems that ZOS won't fix? Might want to think about it before telling people to just don't play. I'm not giving up for anyone, but this is also not my problem to fix. It sucks that I have to stop playing because tacky people either want everything their way, with no reason or justification give for the way they treat other people or because of the fact that's PvP in Cyrodiil is so broken it's not even worth my time.

I know this is lengthy but yeah some of us still care. And we're not happy. If ZOS can fix some of this stuff, great we'll come back. But if um ESO goes the way of New World and gets real exclusive or other dead games like Half Life: Source where the admins who run the servers, similar to the pvp guilds and ball groups, have unlimited authority and a real strong do as I say and not as I do mentality then the game is already dead. Right now, we're all in limbo giving ZOS time to adjust, which is good, but waiting to see what's going to happen. I can't choose for everyone and I'm so sick and tired of people who don't know me making choices for me. That was never part of the plan here and not the ESO PvP that I remember.

Nobody is trying to take your Vengeance from you. Grey Host players simply expect the same grace in return.

Sure they try taking Vengeance away. Most anti-Vengeance comments here sound like this:

„Stop Vengeance now! Nobody plays it! Real PvP Players are not allowed to PvP! We are forced to play this garbage! Vengeance is no skill zergfest, supporters are all unskilled, PvEr, bots and won’t play it anyway! Without builds it is no preparation for GreyHost either! Making it an alternative is impossible and same as removing GreyHost because ZOS won’t support two versions of Cyrodiil“
(Why wouldn’t they if both are populated and if they take one away most players would rather quit than play other? And why should players use it only to prepare making builds for GreyHost?)

Almost nobody preferring GreyHost wants to allow Vengeance supporters to play there while most Vengeance supporters want it as one of multiple options.

No, there’s a big difference, when Vengeance is live, they take away GH. ZOS is creating the divide by forcing PvPers to “test” a campaign they don’t want to play, cause that’s the only Cyro PvP available.

And to point out the severity, believe it or not, there are a lot of people that absolutely can’t stand PvE. So when ZOS “tests” something like vengeance and removes an entire play base from a game some people have invested a decade of time into, they can rightfully voice their disdain for that decision made by devs that are far far disconnected from people who have lived in Cyrodiil for years.

Ingenon

No

I like the Vengeance tests, and have participated in all of them that ZOS has made available on PS/NA. I hope that ZOS makes a Vengeance campaign a permanent addition to the current Cyrodiil campaigns, for all players level 10 through 50.

aetherix8

Yes

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

Honestly, I understand your points and I don't discredit your experience in PvP. I believe the devs have enabled and created a toxic environment due to their choices.

So, a toxic environment is solely due to the devs, and has absolutely nothing to do with players being toxic? Lol, no, the devs didn't create a toxic environment.

StihlReign wrote: »

My responses above were really in direct response to that particular user who trolls the PvP community in their conversations.

Another innaccurate statement. That my point of view is different from yours it doesn't mean I'm trolling. Not a single post of mine about Vengeance got snipped or deleted by the mods.
4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways.

"Another innaccurate statement. That my point of view is different from yours it doesn't mean I'm trolling. Not a single post of mine about Vengeance got snipped or deleted by the mods.
4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways."

This is how we know they're not arguing in good faith. They just want an easier version of Cyrodiil because they haven't been able to compete in live Cyrodiil PvP.

My advice to this poster, put in the same time and effort the rest of us have and you'll be fine. ....probably. There are some that just can't keep up in end game trials and PvP and that's just the way it goes. There is a steep learning curve for sure, but it's the same learning curve for everyone.

This is how we know they're not arguing in good faith: by taking sentences out of context and attributing a meaning to them that is false, while completely ignoring the authors' clarifications. My advice to this poster: read all the posts to get the big picture before replying.

Iriidius

SneaK wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

1. What if PvEers figured they had better things to do than deal with op ballgroups, broken builds, lag, etc?

2. Are PvEers wrong to ask for a PvP mode where they stand a chance and one they enjoy?

3. Since when do PvPers work for ZOS?

4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways. In general, I suspect that PvEers don't really care either, they have other problems, like hats and economy. PvPers can try and dictate whatever they want to PvEers, it doesn't change that Cyro populations are shrinking.

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.

I've been with the game and participated in PvP, on and off again, for many years now. I think PvE is enjoyable as well and doing pledges, Trials, and so forth. I'm into many different things with this game.

That said, let's talk about PvP for just a moment. Now you say, 'Don't Play' ok. I don't know what is going on however more and more I keep running into people saying this, along with other things such as...

"If we don't agree with scott or argyl then we might as well not play the game." Not unlike other things expressed such as, "you're not with my EP Guild, therefore you cannot follow us between sieges." This is the same EP PvP guild mind you, that has 20-30 people just following them around late night, every night, doing exactly that. Yeah. And then there's other things like, "leave the server. we don't like you/your jokes/I'm an exclusive AD Guild officer and this faction does not need solo players." "This is my exclusive super duper uhh DC ball group and we don't like you, so we're going to stand here and watch AD murder you, just so you know you're not cool like we are and you're not one of us. Also, even though you played by our rules, asked for a scroll escort from Nik, we're going to hide behind the mile gate and let the AD Guild murder you. Even though we know they're there, we know they're waiting but we don't care about you." They stand there and watch me getting taken down when I reach the mile gate - couldn't even get a Rapid Regen. Nothing. Then AD does something similar by Mr Critter and his fantastic Guild telling everyone on AD to leave me to die because I took the hammer after their man died twice. AD Guild loitering around Alessia Mine side outer wall rather than run in and help waiting for me to die with the hammer they lost... again.

Ok, do you see what I'm saying? You don't see what I'm saying? These 'people' in the ball groups, pvp guilds and so forth, give nothing. ESO PvP is supposed to be something, as it was for a long time, where we all logged in to kill each other, helped each other out if not in the most basic sense of team cooperation and it's like this ugliness has crept in overtime and its making people hate this game because of it. This is why people are turning to Vengeance. This is why Vengeance is such a good thing because the ball groups, the pvp guilds, all this foolishness is checked. They don't reign supreme in the Vengeance environment. As they say, "we're not locked in here with you... you all are locked in here with us." And that's what makes Vengeance so special and desirable, contrary wise so hated by the other parties. In short, no inconvenience caused by Vengeance causes as much grief as we're used to receiving. That said, I'm usually solo player with good skills too btw.

You guys talk about standing a chance against ball groups and you say it's a skill issue. Really. What's the counter play to a ball group for probably most players in Cyrodiil? I can throw a negate, I can use siege, I can juggle torte with both hands, and it won't make a lick of difference. They're nigh unstoppable. Yes, there are tactics that work against them, but they are rare, they really require more teamwork than skill in execution. There is no counter play to a ball group. Ok you disagree then, fine. What skill should I whip out from my toolkit that reliably enable me to stand a chance against a ball group? Which one it be? A solo or casual player, or perhaps an organized group with comms, that is itself not a ball group.

There is none. And that's the problem. That's why Vengeance shines, will continue to shine like the freaking sun. Cause Cyrodiil is become a lost cause. I no longer login at PrimeTime. I login during the day and then leave. It's just bombers, grief bombers chasing me between keeps, why because they don't like me that's why. So now me and other solos, casuals, other organized groups have to lose because there's a special interest group exploiting game features meant for playing in groups and not meant to be exploited in this manner. Had a DC Sorc one time wiped over 200 AD for 3 or 4 hours by himself. Had a DC ball group do the same while trolling a scroll that others in same faction worked hard to get. They took, had their way with it and the ap and so forth and left the rest of us behind while successfully fighting off two factions for roughly 2 hours, just circling the lower map.

What's a ball group good for huh? A bomber is good for something, ok. But my experience in dealing with ball groups, consistently, is they only serve themselves. They don't rez... others, they don't communicate, they don't cooperate, but they hesitate when others need help. I have no use for those people at all. If we're not all there for a common goal they, why are we there? I don't care how much on here don't like me for saying that, but I am confident that if people were to experience some of the hell that some of us have been put thru with PvP in this game they might start to care. Maybe. I might be giving too much credit. Sometimes the problems in PvP, are due to the players themselves not ZOS fault. After all this time, should I just stop playing and just have to give up because of problems that ZOS won't fix? Might want to think about it before telling people to just don't play. I'm not giving up for anyone, but this is also not my problem to fix. It sucks that I have to stop playing because tacky people either want everything their way, with no reason or justification give for the way they treat other people or because of the fact that's PvP in Cyrodiil is so broken it's not even worth my time.

I know this is lengthy but yeah some of us still care. And we're not happy. If ZOS can fix some of this stuff, great we'll come back. But if um ESO goes the way of New World and gets real exclusive or other dead games like Half Life: Source where the admins who run the servers, similar to the pvp guilds and ball groups, have unlimited authority and a real strong do as I say and not as I do mentality then the game is already dead. Right now, we're all in limbo giving ZOS time to adjust, which is good, but waiting to see what's going to happen. I can't choose for everyone and I'm so sick and tired of people who don't know me making choices for me. That was never part of the plan here and not the ESO PvP that I remember.

Nobody is trying to take your Vengeance from you. Grey Host players simply expect the same grace in return.

Sure they try taking Vengeance away. Most anti-Vengeance comments here sound like this:

„Stop Vengeance now! Nobody plays it! Real PvP Players are not allowed to PvP! We are forced to play this garbage! Vengeance is no skill zergfest, supporters are all unskilled, PvEr, bots and won’t play it anyway! Without builds it is no preparation for GreyHost either! Making it an alternative is impossible and same as removing GreyHost because ZOS won’t support two versions of Cyrodiil“
(Why wouldn’t they if both are populated and if they take one away most players would rather quit than play other? And why should players use it only to prepare making builds for GreyHost?)

Almost nobody preferring GreyHost wants to allow Vengeance supporters to play there while most Vengeance supporters want it as one of multiple options.

No, there’s a big difference, when Vengeance is live, they take away GH. ZOS is creating the divide by forcing PvPers to “test” a campaign they don’t want to play, cause that’s the only Cyro PvP available.

And to point out the severity, believe it or not, there are a lot of people that absolutely can’t stand PvE. So when ZOS “tests” something like vengeance and removes an entire play base from a game some people have invested a decade of time into, they can rightfully voice their disdain for that decision made by devs that are far far disconnected from people who have lived in Cyrodiil for years.

And when GreyHost is life they take away Vengeance so where is the difference?
Vengeance supporters didn’t ask ZOS to take away other campaigns when it is life.
Majority of discussions comefrom Vengeance haters asking ZOS to take away the 1 week of Vengeance per patch even as option.

If ZOS made both options available everyone could play what he prefers and players would not have to argue.
If you wanted neither Vengeance nor GreyHost taken away you would ask for that but you don’t because you want Vengeance taken away.

PvPr preferring Vengeance are forced to play life PvP for 12 of 13 weeks every patch and might not like PvE either if they don’t even do it to get PvP builds. They have it much worse than you who only loose Cyrodiil for a week and can still play IC, BG or Duells.

Muizer

Iriidius wrote: »

And when GreyHost is life they take away Vengeance so where is the difference?

SneaK just told you: GH has a player base that has a lot invested in that format. Vengeance does not.

This is no doubt an observation of some weight. Much more so than whether GH is more fun, more skill based or better in some other way.

Iriidius wrote: »

If ZOS made both options available everyone could play what he prefers and players would not have to argue. If you wanted neither Vengeance nor GreyHost taken away you would ask for that but you don’t because you want Vengeance taken away.

The problem with pitching Vengeance as an addition instead of a replacement is that it assumes ZOS would undertake this Vengeance project knowing:

a) They still would have to address the performance in PvP as it is (Users would be just as entitled to complain about it as they are now).
b) They will have an extra feature to maintain going forward.

I think from ZOS' perspective that's not very attractive. Much more likely they are aiming for one performant Cyrodiil PvP mode to maintain at the end of this, whether that's a modified GH or a fleshed out Vengeance. That would actually solve something for them. And when you're going to spend time on an existing game feature like Cyrodiil, that's what you want as a developer: to solve something. Not to add more to your workload.

SaffronCitrusflower

Yes

aetherix8 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

Honestly, I understand your points and I don't discredit your experience in PvP. I believe the devs have enabled and created a toxic environment due to their choices.

So, a toxic environment is solely due to the devs, and has absolutely nothing to do with players being toxic? Lol, no, the devs didn't create a toxic environment.

StihlReign wrote: »

My responses above were really in direct response to that particular user who trolls the PvP community in their conversations.

Another innaccurate statement. That my point of view is different from yours it doesn't mean I'm trolling. Not a single post of mine about Vengeance got snipped or deleted by the mods.
4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways.

"Another innaccurate statement. That my point of view is different from yours it doesn't mean I'm trolling. Not a single post of mine about Vengeance got snipped or deleted by the mods.
4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways."

This is how we know they're not arguing in good faith. They just want an easier version of Cyrodiil because they haven't been able to compete in live Cyrodiil PvP.

My advice to this poster, put in the same time and effort the rest of us have and you'll be fine. ....probably. There are some that just can't keep up in end game trials and PvP and that's just the way it goes. There is a steep learning curve for sure, but it's the same learning curve for everyone.

This is how we know they're not arguing in good faith: by taking sentences out of context and attributing a meaning to them that is false, while completely ignoring the authors' clarifications. My advice to this poster: read all the posts to get the big picture before replying.

I have read your posts. You're not going to PvP no matter the format. You've said as much in several posts, one I quoted above.

If you spent as much time in game learning to PvP as you do on this forum you'd probably be able to be competitive..probably. But you'd rather whine and blame shift than get to work learning and getting good at PvP. Current live Cyrodiil has the same skill sets and resources for everyone. You're not at a disadvantage to anyone else during this learning process. It will take some time and effort, as it has for all of us who PvP in ESO.

I think you're just trying to create enough conflict in these threads that they get closed down and maybe get those that don't agree with you removed from the forum.

SneaK

Yes

Iriidius wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

No, there’s a big difference, when Vengeance is live, they take away GH. ZOS is creating the divide by forcing PvPers to “test” a campaign they don’t want to play, cause that’s the only Cyro PvP available.

And to point out the severity, believe it or not, there are a lot of people that absolutely can’t stand PvE. So when ZOS “tests” something like vengeance and removes an entire play base from a game some people have invested a decade of time into, they can rightfully voice their disdain for that decision made by devs that are far far disconnected from people who have lived in Cyrodiil for years.

And when GreyHost is life they take away Vengeance so where is the difference?
Vengeance supporters didn’t ask ZOS to take away other campaigns when it is life.
Majority of discussions comefrom Vengeance haters asking ZOS to take away the 1 week of Vengeance per patch even as option.

If ZOS made both options available everyone could play what he prefers and players would not have to argue.
If you wanted neither Vengeance nor GreyHost taken away you would ask for that but you don’t because you want Vengeance taken away.

PvPr preferring Vengeance are forced to play life PvP for 12 of 13 weeks every patch and might not like PvE either if they don’t even do it to get PvP builds. They have it much worse than you who only loose Cyrodiil for a week and can still play IC, BG or Duells.

Feel free to investigate my comments but I don’t think I’ve said optionality is bad. IMO Vengeance is a decent model for 10-50 characters, basic PvP that doesn’t require the time sink of theorycrafting and economic toll to the players. I played it, I did not like it and doubt I’d play it again. That doesn’t mean it can’t still show up as a campaign for the people that want that type of thing.

What it does mean, is that there are lots and lots of people like me, that don’t want it forced on us cause we enjoy more than what it offers. I hate subclassing. I hate hybridization. But I’d rather play a form of Cyrodiil that has those two features (that I HATE) rather than play vengeance. Why, cause Vengeance has undercut years and years of thoughts, money, and grind invested into ESO. It’s tenfold worse now, the best PvP mythic is behind a $50 paywall, so I buy that, then grind PvE (that I HATE) to get it. “Oh hey guys, gear no longer matters in Cyrodiil”.

It’s terrible.

ZOS has created further division between the community by their lack of understanding their community. They are not transparent where they need to be and people are frustrated with them. It doesn’t help to have the other side of the community hopping onboard acting like the opinion of Vengeance shall be positive “or else”.



Editing to say one more thing..
For some, the idea of Vengeance doesn’t just hurt longevity, it’s kills it. If all you do in ESO is play Cyro PvP, and not a fan of Vengeance, there is no reason to play the game anymore. Even though it’s not “fun”, gear grind, especially in MMOs, is a huge part of the game. It gets you into other aspects of the game. Taking away the reason, there’s all of a sudden no purpose in PvE either.