Parsing vs. Mechanics

alpha_synuclein · October 9

Last'One wrote: »

Of course I’m talking about PUGs (Group Finder)… I don’t use or care about Discord! I care about the game, so I play the game inside the game, not outside.

There are guilds inside your game. Just sayin

sleepy_worm · October 9

I do a lot of Group Finder vet trials and I think you're overstating this problem. 99% of the time, if crown tells people they're on mechanics, those people do mechanics. What often leads to failure is relying on volunteers only. Some people just need to be told what to do.

kargen27 · October 9

I'm thinking some people might be missing the point. OP isn't saying the group skips the mechanics but that players concerned about their DPS don't want to be assigned to the mechanics or don't want to be bothered with rezzing players. Some can't be bothered with putting on an interrupt or bash the archers in the first boss fight of Sanity's edge. It interferes with their high DPS numbers so leave that to others in the group and no way they want to through a portal to pop a horror. It is rare but I've seen a couple of players so concerned with high DPS they end up standing in stupid so their beam can hit the maximum number of targets.
We had a couple of players on our progression team that were always competing with each other for high DPS. Wouldn't rez or any of that so the group leader started assigning them to mechanics instead of asking for volunteers. Now they are much better team players and find other things on the logs to brag about besides just DPS.

With pugs I think some players don't want to try mechanics because they are afraid of screwing them up. Others of course simply don't know the mechanics and not much but experience can be done about that.

What bugs me is the videos/guides that show a top tier trial group skipping certain mechanics without including an explanation of the mechanics. Gets frustrating when people in the group insist that a mechanic can be skipped because the guide says it can and won't listen when it is pointed out the group DPS is nowhere near what the group DPS in the video is. The guide might say at 20% just ignore the adds and burn the boss but that only works if the DPS is high enough that the adds spawning don't become overwhelming. Sometimes that gets hard to explain for some reason.

irswat · October 10

Offloading tasks to supports is incentivized in allot of instances. Sometimes the tasks are inevitable,, but when they can be offloaded to supports there are often more pros than cons to it. E.g. skipping mechanics with dps

percept · October 10

Last'One wrote: »

I’m talking about veteran players. they know the mechanics very well.
I’m talking about "you" (Veteran), you know the mechanics well. So why avoid them or try to skip them so often?

Because they're not quality players.

Being a veteran has nothing to do with skill or performance.

WuffyCerulei · October 10

My friends and I call em “parse monkeys”. They only focus on their damage, and then die to every avoidable mechanic because “muh parse”. With veteran players, it’s arrogance and ego, but then there’s a reason they tend to not be picked up by core groups and whatnot. Dead DPS do no DPS. For new players, it’s just inexperience.

twisttop138 · October 10

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm thinking some people might be missing the point. OP isn't saying the group skips the mechanics but that players concerned about their DPS don't want to be assigned to the mechanics or don't want to be bothered with rezzing players. Some can't be bothered with putting on an interrupt or bash the archers in the first boss fight of Sanity's edge. It interferes with their high DPS numbers so leave that to others in the group and no way they want to through a portal to pop a horror. It is rare but I've seen a couple of players so concerned with high DPS they end up standing in stupid so their beam can hit the maximum number of targets.
We had a couple of players on our progression team that were always competing with each other for high DPS. Wouldn't rez or any of that so the group leader started assigning them to mechanics instead of asking for volunteers. Now they are much better team players and find other things on the logs to brag about besides just DPS.

With pugs I think some players don't want to try mechanics because they are afraid of screwing them up. Others of course simply don't know the mechanics and not much but experience can be done about that.

What bugs me is the videos/guides that show a top tier trial group skipping certain mechanics without including an explanation of the mechanics. Gets frustrating when people in the group insist that a mechanic can be skipped because the guide says it can and won't listen when it is pointed out the group DPS is nowhere near what the group DPS in the video is. The guide might say at 20% just ignore the adds and burn the boss but that only works if the DPS is high enough that the adds spawning don't become overwhelming. Sometimes that gets hard to explain for some reason.

The point was pretty clear. It sucks that players don't want to do mechanics because they can't be arsed cause they wanna dps, or they're afraid of screwing up, or a guide shows those mechs being skipped. The reason this is happening though is because he's playing in pug groups. RevanReborn420 doesn't want to so he's not gonna, you're all strangers who he'll probably never see again. Bigboss69 doesn't know and doesn't wanna look stupid so he's not gonna. Uberleetpwnr only cares about big numbers go brrrr. Why should he care if the healer right next to him just went down? The solution to this is to get a guild.

In my social guild we teach folks this stuff. Everyone takes turns on mechs. All DPS get to experience portals on different nights. The lead will call you out if you're not rezzing. Sometimes people get tunnel vision and just need a nudge. Our runs might get hectic with so many learning and we might not clear. That night. Or if you're experienced, find a vet raid guild. Submit your parse and start raiding. You won't find stuff like this in organized groups. It doesn't seem like the op wants to hear it. He wants to pug, no discord, no guild, no team. More power to him. I hope he finds what he's looking for.

Last'One · October 10

twisttop138 wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm thinking some people might be missing the point. OP isn't saying the group skips the mechanics but that players concerned about their DPS don't want to be assigned to the mechanics or don't want to be bothered with rezzing players. Some can't be bothered with putting on an interrupt or bash the archers in the first boss fight of Sanity's edge. It interferes with their high DPS numbers so leave that to others in the group and no way they want to through a portal to pop a horror. It is rare but I've seen a couple of players so concerned with high DPS they end up standing in stupid so their beam can hit the maximum number of targets.
We had a couple of players on our progression team that were always competing with each other for high DPS. Wouldn't rez or any of that so the group leader started assigning them to mechanics instead of asking for volunteers. Now they are much better team players and find other things on the logs to brag about besides just DPS.

With pugs I think some players don't want to try mechanics because they are afraid of screwing them up. Others of course simply don't know the mechanics and not much but experience can be done about that.

What bugs me is the videos/guides that show a top tier trial group skipping certain mechanics without including an explanation of the mechanics. Gets frustrating when people in the group insist that a mechanic can be skipped because the guide says it can and won't listen when it is pointed out the group DPS is nowhere near what the group DPS in the video is. The guide might say at 20% just ignore the adds and burn the boss but that only works if the DPS is high enough that the adds spawning don't become overwhelming. Sometimes that gets hard to explain for some reason.

The point was pretty clear. It sucks that players don't want to do mechanics because they can't be arsed cause they wanna dps, or they're afraid of screwing up, or a guide shows those mechs being skipped. The reason this is happening though is because he's playing in pug groups. RevanReborn420 doesn't want to so he's not gonna, you're all strangers who he'll probably never see again. Bigboss69 doesn't know and doesn't wanna look stupid so he's not gonna. Uberleetpwnr only cares about big numbers go brrrr. Why should he care if the healer right next to him just went down? The solution to this is to get a guild.

In my social guild we teach folks this stuff. Everyone takes turns on mechs. All DPS get to experience portals on different nights. The lead will call you out if you're not rezzing. Sometimes people get tunnel vision and just need a nudge. Our runs might get hectic with so many learning and we might not clear. That night. Or if you're experienced, find a vet raid guild. Submit your parse and start raiding. You won't find stuff like this in organized groups. It doesn't seem like the op wants to hear it. He wants to pug, no discord, no guild, no team. More power to him. I hope he finds what he's looking for.

I get what you’re saying, but that’s not an excuse and let me explain why. For example; Dreadsail Reef was released on June 21, 2022, and I only got my veteran achievement on December 11, 2022 almost six months later. Why? Because I don’t feel comfortable ruining other players runs when I don’t know what to do. So, I avoided that trial and waited for the opportunity to learn and understand it properly.

On the other hand, Lucent Citadel was released on June 3, 2024, and just a month later I was already getting the hard mode for the first two bosses.
Why? Not because it’s easier or harder, but because I could understand the mechanics better than those in Dreadsail especially the interrupts.

And about seven days later, I’d already gotten the speed run.

So once again, not doing mechanics because "you don’t know them" is not an excuse. In fact, it’s even worse, because players join and end up ruining the run for everyone else.

And that brings us to the main point: veteran players, the ones who already know the mechanics, should be more active in helping others instead of focusing only on their DPS.

If we don’t have DPS sharing, veteran players will still step in and handle mechanics when they notice other players can’t. I bet they will, because they join to actually play the game, right?

With DPS sharing and addons like Hodor Reflexes, veteran players often join just to parse and show their DPS. Why? Because they’re tired of the game and doing the same trials over and over again.

Renato90085 · October 10

Last'One wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm thinking some people might be missing the point. OP isn't saying the group skips the mechanics but that players concerned about their DPS don't want to be assigned to the mechanics or don't want to be bothered with rezzing players. Some can't be bothered with putting on an interrupt or bash the archers in the first boss fight of Sanity's edge. It interferes with their high DPS numbers so leave that to others in the group and no way they want to through a portal to pop a horror. It is rare but I've seen a couple of players so concerned with high DPS they end up standing in stupid so their beam can hit the maximum number of targets.
We had a couple of players on our progression team that were always competing with each other for high DPS. Wouldn't rez or any of that so the group leader started assigning them to mechanics instead of asking for volunteers. Now they are much better team players and find other things on the logs to brag about besides just DPS.

With pugs I think some players don't want to try mechanics because they are afraid of screwing them up. Others of course simply don't know the mechanics and not much but experience can be done about that.

What bugs me is the videos/guides that show a top tier trial group skipping certain mechanics without including an explanation of the mechanics. Gets frustrating when people in the group insist that a mechanic can be skipped because the guide says it can and won't listen when it is pointed out the group DPS is nowhere near what the group DPS in the video is. The guide might say at 20% just ignore the adds and burn the boss but that only works if the DPS is high enough that the adds spawning don't become overwhelming. Sometimes that gets hard to explain for some reason.

The point was pretty clear. It sucks that players don't want to do mechanics because they can't be arsed cause they wanna dps, or they're afraid of screwing up, or a guide shows those mechs being skipped. The reason this is happening though is because he's playing in pug groups. RevanReborn420 doesn't want to so he's not gonna, you're all strangers who he'll probably never see again. Bigboss69 doesn't know and doesn't wanna look stupid so he's not gonna. Uberleetpwnr only cares about big numbers go brrrr. Why should he care if the healer right next to him just went down? The solution to this is to get a guild.

In my social guild we teach folks this stuff. Everyone takes turns on mechs. All DPS get to experience portals on different nights. The lead will call you out if you're not rezzing. Sometimes people get tunnel vision and just need a nudge. Our runs might get hectic with so many learning and we might not clear. That night. Or if you're experienced, find a vet raid guild. Submit your parse and start raiding. You won't find stuff like this in organized groups. It doesn't seem like the op wants to hear it. He wants to pug, no discord, no guild, no team. More power to him. I hope he finds what he's looking for.

I get what you’re saying, but that’s not an excuse and let me explain why. For example; Dreadsail Reef was released on June 21, 2022, and I only got my veteran achievement on December 11, 2022 almost six months later. Why? Because I don’t feel comfortable ruining other players runs when I don’t know what to do. So, I avoided that trial and waited for the opportunity to learn and understand it properly.

On the other hand, Lucent Citadel was released on June 3, 2024, and just a month later I was already getting the hard mode for the first two bosses.
Why? Not because it’s easier or harder, but because I could understand the mechanics better than those in Dreadsail especially the interrupts.
And about seven days later, I’d already gotten the speed run.

So once again, not doing mechanics because "you don’t know them" is not an excuse. In fact, it’s even worse, because players join and end up ruining the run for everyone else.

And that brings us to the main point: veteran players, the ones who already know the mechanics, should be more active in helping others instead of focusing only on their DPS.

If we don’t have DPS sharing, veteran players will still step in and handle mechanics when they notice other players can’t. I bet they will, because they join to actually play the game, right?

With DPS sharing and addons like Hodor Reflexes, veteran players often join just to parse and show their DPS. Why? Because they’re tired of the game and doing the same trials over and over again.

I just think delete a addon can fix toxic pug is Impossible
the ps5 and Xbox not have addon(and log)many years,but we know there happen same thing
why there good player not do mech too?

twisttop138 · October 10

Last'One wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm thinking some people might be missing the point. OP isn't saying the group skips the mechanics but that players concerned about their DPS don't want to be assigned to the mechanics or don't want to be bothered with rezzing players. Some can't be bothered with putting on an interrupt or bash the archers in the first boss fight of Sanity's edge. It interferes with their high DPS numbers so leave that to others in the group and no way they want to through a portal to pop a horror. It is rare but I've seen a couple of players so concerned with high DPS they end up standing in stupid so their beam can hit the maximum number of targets.
We had a couple of players on our progression team that were always competing with each other for high DPS. Wouldn't rez or any of that so the group leader started assigning them to mechanics instead of asking for volunteers. Now they are much better team players and find other things on the logs to brag about besides just DPS.

With pugs I think some players don't want to try mechanics because they are afraid of screwing them up. Others of course simply don't know the mechanics and not much but experience can be done about that.

What bugs me is the videos/guides that show a top tier trial group skipping certain mechanics without including an explanation of the mechanics. Gets frustrating when people in the group insist that a mechanic can be skipped because the guide says it can and won't listen when it is pointed out the group DPS is nowhere near what the group DPS in the video is. The guide might say at 20% just ignore the adds and burn the boss but that only works if the DPS is high enough that the adds spawning don't become overwhelming. Sometimes that gets hard to explain for some reason.

The point was pretty clear. It sucks that players don't want to do mechanics because they can't be arsed cause they wanna dps, or they're afraid of screwing up, or a guide shows those mechs being skipped. The reason this is happening though is because he's playing in pug groups. RevanReborn420 doesn't want to so he's not gonna, you're all strangers who he'll probably never see again. Bigboss69 doesn't know and doesn't wanna look stupid so he's not gonna. Uberleetpwnr only cares about big numbers go brrrr. Why should he care if the healer right next to him just went down? The solution to this is to get a guild.

In my social guild we teach folks this stuff. Everyone takes turns on mechs. All DPS get to experience portals on different nights. The lead will call you out if you're not rezzing. Sometimes people get tunnel vision and just need a nudge. Our runs might get hectic with so many learning and we might not clear. That night. Or if you're experienced, find a vet raid guild. Submit your parse and start raiding. You won't find stuff like this in organized groups. It doesn't seem like the op wants to hear it. He wants to pug, no discord, no guild, no team. More power to him. I hope he finds what he's looking for.

I get what you’re saying, but that’s not an excuse and let me explain why. For example; Dreadsail Reef was released on June 21, 2022, and I only got my veteran achievement on December 11, 2022 almost six months later. Why? Because I don’t feel comfortable ruining other players runs when I don’t know what to do. So, I avoided that trial and waited for the opportunity to learn and understand it properly.

On the other hand, Lucent Citadel was released on June 3, 2024, and just a month later I was already getting the hard mode for the first two bosses.
Why? Not because it’s easier or harder, but because I could understand the mechanics better than those in Dreadsail especially the interrupts.
And about seven days later, I’d already gotten the speed run.

So once again, not doing mechanics because "you don’t know them" is not an excuse. In fact, it’s even worse, because players join and end up ruining the run for everyone else.

And that brings us to the main point: veteran players, the ones who already know the mechanics, should be more active in helping others instead of focusing only on their DPS.

If we don’t have DPS sharing, veteran players will still step in and handle mechanics when they notice other players can’t. I bet they will, because they join to actually play the game, right?

With DPS sharing and addons like Hodor Reflexes, veteran players often join just to parse and show their DPS. Why? Because they’re tired of the game and doing the same trials over and over again.

I get ya brother. I know it's not an excuse. I'm just telling you how I see it. People don't want to do it for one reason or another so they won't. If you're in a pug run that can happen. I'm just saying if you run that way, you gotta expect it sometimes. It sucks. This thread has made me curious. I'm gonna try to jump into a GF run this evening. On PS5 Na, I look and often times see half filled slots so I never think to bother but I'll try it. Just in my opinion, organized runs are the way to go.

tomofhyrule · October 10

You're getting on to one of the major questions of humanity in general:

"Why can't random people put others above themselves?"

If only random people put the needs of others above themselves, then imagine how wonderful the world would be... Alas, people are people and not mindless robots working for the good of a hivemind.

Last'One · October 10

I got a message from a moderator, and I tried to add you, @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_GinaBruno , to the conversation, but it seems there’s a bug with that forum function.

I’ve sent you a screenshot of the message I received.

Come on… this nonsense has to stop.

And you @MOD may close the topic if you want. It’s more than clear we’re not allowed to discuss this anymore.

Soarora · October 10

Last'One wrote: »

I got a message from a moderator, and I tried to add you, @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_GinaBruno , to the conversation, but it seems there’s a bug with that forum function.

I’ve sent you a screenshot of the message I received.

Come on… this nonsense has to stop.

ZOS can't solve a person "problem". PUGs are the wilderness, they can go wrong for any number of reasons and there's no punishment for being the cause of a run going wrong. Find a guild that matches how you want to play, make a guild or become a lead that matches how you want to play, or don't do trials. I gave up on trials because I don't mesh well with the people who do them, that's a decision I made despite enjoying the content itself. It was for the better.

I mentioned the DPS competition because that's a thing that competent players will do but in the case of pugs it's not always a DPS race. Removing DPS sharing will not fix your problem with the runs you're in.

katanagirl1 · October 11

I don’t have a lot of trials experience, and I don’t like to volunteer. Maybe a lot of other people just aren’t comfortable doing them. If they mess up, it causes a wipe. I was in a pug for ndsr and they were intentionally avoiding doing the domes on the twins, I wanted to grab a dome to make it easier but was afraid I would grab the wrong one. It might not have been bad on normal but I know you can wipe the group on vet if you do.

Players see I have 2700+ cp and assume things, like I have lots of trials experience, when I don’t. If roles aren’t assigned or volunteers taken then I would not expect people to step up.

Yudo · October 11

Parse monkey thinks must have highest dps, therefore others do mech.
Parse monkey actually don't know mech.
Parse monkey too shy for chat and don't want to stand out.
Parse monkey is climaxing, too busy to rez.
Parse monkey willing to spend more time waiting than volunteering.
Parse monkey woke up without a banana.

Varana · October 11

Last'One wrote: »

If we don’t have DPS sharing, veteran players will still step in and handle mechanics when they notice other players can’t. I bet they will, because they join to actually play the game, right?

With DPS sharing and addons like Hodor Reflexes, veteran players often join just to parse and show their DPS. Why? Because they’re tired of the game and doing the same trials over and over again.

Am I missing some sarcasm here?
Because having or not having these addons changes nothing about players being bored by the same content on repeat.

"If we don't have DPS sharing, veteran players join just to parse because they’re tired of the game and doing the same trials over and over again."
That works quite as well. Sure, there are fewer hard numbers, but I do have a general idea of how well I could do damage during a fight. Going through the rotation is what does damage, so when I can do my rotation without being interrupted more often, then the feeling is good and the (invisible) numbers are up.
DPS sharing makes the {nickname for Richard}-measuring competition easier, but it doesn't cause the root problem. DPS sharing certainly doesn't cause player boredom.

Last'One wrote: »

And that brings us to the main point: veteran players, the ones who already know the mechanics, should be more active in helping others instead of focusing only on their DPS.

I very much agree with this.
But this has nothing to do with DPS sharing, and much more with the fact that there are so few groups left, and so few players wanting to do group content.

Last'One · October 11

I really want to keep going and discussing this, but I can’t, because I don’t want to break the rules, like @MOD said.
Still, I feel I have to finish my thoughts on this topic.

@Soarora, this isn’t a "personal problem," and it’s not just my problem either, it’s a game problem.
I agree that PUGs are chaotic by nature, but I never meant to talk about PUGs themselves. My point has always been about veteran players, the ones who actually know the mechanics, can perform them in PUGs, but simply choose not to. And yes, they have the right to play how they want. But as a result, the Group Finder stays exactly as it is: a buggy, unreliable system that feels almost useless. We can’t properly form the groups we want because of all the issues it has and nothing will change, because it’s become "normal" for veteran players to join and do nothing, perfectly fitting into the broken system the game currently has.

Since I can’t change the Group Finder alone, and everyone seems fine with how it is… I’ll accept that. I’ll just become one more useless player in there, instead of helping like I should.

katanagirl1 · October 11

Last'One wrote: »

I really want to keep going and discussing this, but I can’t, because I don’t want to break the rules, like @MOD said.
Still, I feel I have to finish my thoughts on this topic.

@Soarora, this isn’t a "personal problem," and it’s not just my problem either, it’s a game problem.
I agree that PUGs are chaotic by nature, but I never meant to talk about PUGs themselves. My point has always been about veteran players, the ones who actually know the mechanics, can perform them in PUGs, but simply choose not to. And yes, they have the right to play how they want. But as a result, the Group Finder stays exactly as it is: a buggy, unreliable system that feels almost useless. We can’t properly form the groups we want because of all the issues it has and nothing will change, because it’s become "normal" for veteran players to join and do nothing, perfectly fitting into the broken system the game currently has.

Since I can’t change the Group Finder alone, and everyone seems fine with how it is… I’ll accept that. I’ll just become one more useless player in there, instead of helping like I should.

How can you know who is a veteran player that knows the mechanics? How do you know they can do them but choose not too? I just stated that I have 2700+ cp but don’t know them well. You can’t tell just by looking at a player.

valenwood_vegan · October 11

I just don't understand what outcome was expected here. The forums can't say with any certainty why any particular unknown person in a random group acted in a certain way, nor can it control the behavior of any particular person in a random group. Maybe it would be best to attempt to resolve any issues with the actual people involved. Or seek out organized groups or organize one's own groups that are run in the desired way.

But for what it's worth, I will say that I'm a "vet player" nearly at max cp, yet I do not have significant experience with several of the newer trials and would be extremely reluctant to volunteer myself for a mech that I don't understand well, in a PuG at least.

Vulkunne · October 11

Last'One wrote: »

I have a question: why do so many veteran players avoid doing mechanics? For example; kiting in vRG, handling tombs or portals in vSS, taking portals in vSE, doing interrupts or managing reefs in vDSR... you name it. I see this all the time, and I’m sure you do too. Why do veteran players always try to avoid mechanics? Is it just to prevent losing DPS? lol

And what about reviving other players? Same story, right? Because when you’re rezzing, you’re not parsing.

This brings me back to an old argument I’ve had for a long time: if most players intentionally skip mechanics just to protect their parse, how exactly is DPS sharing good for the game? It already fuels toxicity and gatekeeping and now it’s encouraging people to ignore mechanics too.

There’s a lot to debate about features like DPS sharing, Hodor Reflex, and logs, but I think the core issue is simple: why do so many players care more about their numbers than about actually playing the fight properly?

edit:

I’m not talking about skipping mechanics. I’m talking about players who simply don’t want to do them.
vRG: No one wants to kite.

vDSR: No one wants to handle interrupts or reefs.

vSS: No one wants to take T1 or T2.

vSE: No one wants to go into portals to kill the ghosts.

you name it...

I’m not talking about skipping T2&T3 tomb when the DPS is high, that makes sense sometimes.
I’m talking about skipping T1, T2, Reefs, portals in vCR and other necessary mechanics even when they’re required. The same goes for every other trial.

Because mechanics requires knowledge on how to deal with them. Many of us on gear runs or the like are teaming with randoms and so forth. We want to fight and get what we're there for and be done with it. Not have to reteach everyone we run with on the same tired mechanics. For example, I ran thru 'Lair of Maarselok" like over 30 times. It was rough. The mechanics there aren't tedious but gosh I can only imagine if it were because it takes so long to get thru that place.