Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh well, I'm mostly in it to save the Great Mage anyway. By the way, after the prologue on Stirk, when talking to Azah, I asked him about saving Vanny, and he promised we would. Made some kind of oath about it and everything. So if we don't, I know who I'm holding accountable.

Oh, right after the end of the quest? They do have individual voice lines now? Back when I played it, they all said the same thing. That was on the day of release (yes, I did play the prologue a second time on a side character, but I didn't talk to the Stirk guys after the quest ended anymore since I didn't expect there to be a change).

Yeah, they do. I was in the same position as you--did it immediately when it went live, the post quest dialogue was nothing much, and so on my next characters through didn't check it. For some reason, I did this time, and thought to myself: I don't remember them saying all this before. But then I thought: well, it was awhile since I checked, maybe it just didn't stick in my brain.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I did say possibly reprehensible. But now that you've stated they're awesome, I'm going to have to say definitely reprehensible.

Does making him a thrall and taking him to the Heart's Week celebrations to scare people count as "reprehensible"?

Yes.

Syldras wrote: »

Or maybe I'll go visit Vanny. A nice surprise for someone else for once, not just always for Gothren

Even more reprehensible!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, I disagree on that, but it hardly matters, since we're unlikely to ever really know any of his motivations and inner thoughts. We've ascribed a lot to him based on his potential as a character, but we could be way off base, too. I guess that's the way it goes with rampant speculation.

I just want to see something that breaks the cliché for once. Some situation where he gets sentimental or really just feels anything, whatever it is, beyond the things that fit the "evil cult leader" cliché. I'm unsure whether we'll ever see that, of course; whether he is even officially designed as being anything beyond the cult leader. I still think it's a pity that his depiction is so limited.

In my mind his lack of sentimentality isn't down to the evil cult leader trope. I get the idea that, in his path to ascension, he's dropped some elements of humanity, knowingly or not. He can't understand the Great Mage's initial reaction to his necromancy not because he's evil, but because he no longer thinks of dead bodies as anything but tools or material; his views have gone past that. Whether or not there's anything in Tamriel that can get him to regain those aspects of humanity is another question entirely. That's why I think it would be interesting if he had qualms about using his own corpse.

But that is just me putting that onto his character based on what I've seen of him in game (which isn't much). Maybe he really is just evil cult leader with no nuance. A pity.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Hopefully they tune it better, then. Or whatever it is they need to do to make it so if someone's in there alone it's not an excruciating experience. I can understand they want it to feel dangerous, and serious, and important, but that can backfire and just seem tedious and drawn out. As of right now, I have plans to take several characters through it, but that could change after I experience it, if it's too much.

They need to adjust it, at least the version that will stay after the event. They can hardly block players from ever playing the second part of one story. That would be so frustrating and disappointing to people.

When it comes to Part 2 of the Solstice story, one hint I picked up from the PTS forum: The more older content a character has completed, the better will the experience be. I couldn't compare it myself yet, but the number of dialogue options seems to differ a lot depending on whether your character has already finished older content or not. At least I've seen people posting how much they liked all those references to older quests, extra dialogue options, etc. I've especially seen the base game and Summerset being mentioned, not sure if other chapters count as well - probably depends on whether that character you're talking to played a role there or not. Now, even if I couldn't test it myself yet (my standard characters still haven't been copied to PTS, not sure when that will happen, and I won't play all old questlines on a new test character ) I think it's probably really better to do old content first. Because what I can say is that in terms of dialogue options... if West Solstice is the only thing you've played, it's not much. I hope that's not a spoiler, I think of it more as a warning or suggestion. But really, on my test character who had done nothing beyond West Solstice before, dialogue options were about like in Part 1. Meaning mostly none at all, sometimes 1, rarely 2. Not very exciting. If your characters talked to the npcs involved before, it's supposed to be much better.

That's interesting, and good news for my main guy, who has done everything quest-wise. Well, that's not entirely true. There are some dungeon and all trial quests he's never done. But he has done all other quests in game, all the zones, and so forth. So now I'm really looking forward to going through it on him.

Except, if characters haven't yet copied to PTS, how are they able to ascertain this difference?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But as to the matter of the ESO stories, base game had some clunkers, too, and some shallow characters. I'm still hoping, based on what they said in the stream and the general sentiment expressed by new leadership, that better stories and characters are on the way. It's possible I'll be disappointed, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

Base game wasn't absolutely perfect either, of course. But there were many quests that did evoke emotions, even just side quests sometimes. Such moments were rarer within the last few years. At least that's my perception. Then again, I don't know yet how dialogue options I've missed this time We'll see. It's obviously not the time for final judgements if the game isn't even on the live servers yet.

I agree that the overall quality of quests has gone down, but I also think people's perceptions of the earlier writing have gotten distorted due to time, nostalgia, and whatever else gets in humans brains and changes memories about. I'm not speaking specifically of you; just a general impression I get from people's posts here on the forums. It happens to me, too. There are some quests I have a memory of being one way, but then I replay them and think, "This isn't as bad as I remember." or "This isn't as good as I remember."

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, the Altmer ambassador for the Aldmeri Dominion told me that the name "Stirk Fellowship" would suffice until he came up with something better. That made me laugh, but I have to assume he has yet to hit upon the perfect name for the group, because it's been the Stirk Fellowship for awhile now.

I mean, it could have needed a better name, no? It does sound a bit weird. Then again, many organizations of Tamriel sound a bit weird. Or individuals even. Would you call yourself "Wormblood"? Who would do that? It leads to all kinds of silly nicknames.

Oh, I agreed with his sentiment, but I knew the line was put in there just to show how snobby Altmer are and there was no way the name was ever going to be changed.

As to Wormblood, do you know, I think he thinks it's a great signifier of his exalted status. He's telling everyone he's related to Mannimarco--direct bloodline of the Order of the Black Worm. At least that's what I got out of it. Probably though he just thinks it sounded edgy and cool.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes.

But Mara supports love and friendship of all kinds! So when I take my thrall to the festival grounds to enjoy the atmosphere and maybe share a bit of wine and cake with him, it must surely be okay!

I'm not talking about Mara's approval.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Even more reprehensible!

Doesn't he like surprises?

Honestly, I think he does not. In the prologue, he says he is "beyond annoyed" at finding the Worm Cult is back (which can be considered a surprise). He certainly didn't like the surprise of Mannimarco's puppetry. So, show him the thrall if you want. He won't like it, and he won't like you for bringing it, and who knows what he'll do. Zap you with lightning, most like.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In my mind his lack of sentimentality isn't down to the evil cult leader trope. I get the idea that, in his path to ascension, he's dropped some elements of humanity, knowingly or not. He can't understand the Great Mage's initial reaction to his necromancy not because he's evil, but because he no longer thinks of dead bodies as anything but tools or material; his views have gone past that.

As a young man, barely having reached adulthood? He was still a novice at the Psijic Order at that time.

Why not, though? He's meant to be some kind of prodigy, isn't he? He and Vanus both. We also don't even really know how old he was then.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Whether or not there's anything in Tamriel that can get him to regain those aspects of humanity is another question entirely. That's why I think it would be interesting if he had qualms about using his own corpse.

It would be an interesting thing to see.

Also the other way round, someone slowly getting into necromancy. It's always depicted as if it was no big deal and those evil necromancers were just... well, evil, I guess But getting used to handling corpses can't be that easy in the beginning. Apart from the obvious aspects: There are so many societal taboos around death and corpses, and every necromancer grew up in normal society and has been raised accordingly (Admittedly, Bosmer necromancers might have a little advantage there; it's strange, by the way, that necromancy is not a normal part of Bosmer society, since they do make use of the corpses of both enemies and allies - it's nothing strange for them, for example, to use a deceased relative's bones to craft something. So why would they not go a step further and raise thralls if neccessary?).

I think building a gradual interest in something is difficult to depict in a game like ESO, particularly with the way the timeline works (or doesn't, as the case may be). But it would be nice to see it somehow. A recurring character whose interest and skills are increased each time you see them, and in conversation you learn something of how they've progressed.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That's interesting, and good news for my main guy, who has done everything quest-wise. Well, that's not entirely true. There are some dungeon and all trial quests he's never done. But he has done all other quests in game, all the zones, and so forth. So now I'm really looking forward to going through it on him.

I'm not sure whether dungeons and trials are relevant for this. Maybe, if one of the characters also showed up there? Actually, I've been wondering which content might be relevant considering the people that are of importance in Part 2. We have the Fellowship with Azah, Skordo, Razum-dar, Walks-In Ash, obviously Mannimarco and Vanny also play a role in the story, then a few returning Coldharbor-related characters I won't name here... Ah, yes, and Darien. How could I forget him? Anyone else? Trying to figure out which content might be important to get all dialogue options (or other variants, if I'd like to do some testing). I think having completed the base game main story and Summerset would be important. Wondering about base game zone/alliance quests, because some of the npcs also show up there. And then it gets complicated, especially since we don't know how much they went into detail there. We also had Skordo in Wrothgar and South Elsweyr. With Razum-dar it gets even worse, since he showed up almost everywhere, "fan favorite" and such: Base game, Gold Coast, Summerset, Elsweyr, Galen, the High Isle + Galen epilogue. He clearly comes up too often

In any way, it's hard to say which of these quests are relevant for the dialogue options. Maybe it's very detailed - or maybe it's rather simple and the only thing that counts is whether we've met before or not. I don't know, there was no statement about that. Although I'd assume that there must be dialogue differences in Darien's case, for example, depending on whether we only played the base game or also Summerset (or neither). Otherwise, things will get even more confusing, with plot holes and such.

Maybe it would be best if I check everything on my main first, since he has done all quest content except for trials and a few dungeons, so I could see what events characters refer to. And then I might get a few side characters into different states of completion to test what difference that makes... But not on PTS, that's unfortunately too much work.

Makes me wonder now, of course... There was a situation in the story where one npc was just standing around alone. You could talk to them, they did have one rather generic line, and that's it. I thought it wasn't much, and also a wasted opportunity somehow, since it would have been interesting to talk about their view on the events of that part of the story (And most of all I wondered why they'd just have that character standing there alone - while all others had already left). Made me wonder now whether there would have been more dialogue if you'd played base game content before so that character would already know you better. But who knows. I'd like to be hopeful, but on the other hand, I don't want to expect too much either, not to be disappointed. There were also side quests with completely new characters where I thought it would be so interesting to talk to them about some central aspect of the quest, but there was no dialogue about that.

Well, my main will go through first, and then I'll take through other characters based on how much they've done, and see what difference it makes. I'll also see how long this takes me.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Except, if characters haven't yet copied to PTS, how are they able to ascertain this difference?

They don't copy all at once. It has always been like that with PTS. Not sure how their schedule is or whether it's a question of luck, but some already had theirs copied. I might be lucky on Monday, or maybe another week later. Would be unfortunate, of course, because I can't do any more testing until then.

Sure you could: Just spin up another template character (or whatever they give you) and run that two hour quest again!

Seriously, though, hopefully your characters get the copy seal of approval.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I agree that the overall quality of quests has gone down, but I also think people's perceptions of the earlier writing have gotten distorted due to time, nostalgia, and whatever else gets in humans brains and changes memories about. I'm not speaking specifically of you; just a general impression I get from people's posts here on the forums. It happens to me, too. There are some quests I have a memory of being one way, but then I replay them and think, "This isn't as bad as I remember." or "This isn't as good as I remember."

I know that memories aren't neccessarily accurate, but I had just played through the Dominion questline on a character some weeks ago, directly after playing Solstice Part 1, so I have the direct comparison. Also played a bit of Vvardenfell before Solstice Part 1 released, so I also got a comparison between those. And it's really a big difference, sadly.

I know there is a difference, but I think it doesn't seem as much of a difference to me. Perhaps because the Vestige has always asked the dumbest questions, ever since the beginning. I mean, when you go to Vvardenfell, pretty early on one of your dialogue options is: What's the tribunal? For me, the big change is they stopped making those dialogue choices optional. Anyway, different opinions aside, I do agree the quality has dipped and I hope it can not just return to former levels, but surpass them.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As to Wormblood, do you know, I think he thinks it's a great signifier of his exalted status. He's telling everyone he's related to Mannimarco--direct bloodline of the Order of the Black Worm. At least that's what I got out of it. Probably though he just thinks it sounded edgy and cool.

I know that the name can be seen as a signifier on him being Mannimarco's successor, maybe even being directly related by blood. But it's still a weird name, and also so... unindividual? It might work as a title, but as the sole name of a person? It really says nothing beyond "this person is related to Mannimarco somehow". Which isn't much. Not even Mannimarco just calls himself "Wormking" or "Wormgod", he still uses an actual name.

Then again, we've only met one Mannimarco so far. Maybe Wormblood's real name was Teldundindo

Lol, well it was a very popular name at one time!

I figure he used the name Wormblood because otherwise the riff-raff of the Worm Cult might not recognize his superiority and/or leadership. Besides, maybe he likes it and doesn't think it's weird to use at all. I think it's weird. You think it's weird. He might think it's the perfect name. We'll never know, because we never got to know him.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm not talking about Mara's approval.

Well, I'm sure Sanguine will be fine with it, too.

I'm not concerned with what any Daedric Prince thinks of it. You aren't showing the thrall to them; you're taking it to a festival/celebration where that kind of thing tends to not happen.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Honestly, I think he does not. In the prologue, he says he is "beyond annoyed" at finding the Worm Cult is back (which can be considered a surprise).

He says a lot of things, and we know some of them are lies.

I'm...not sure what your point is here. You asked if he liked surprises; I said I think he does not. You think he was lying about being annoyed the Worm Cult is back?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

He certainly didn't like the surprise of Mannimarco's puppetry. So, show him the thrall if you want. He won't like it, and he won't like you for bringing it, and who knows what he'll do. Zap you with lightning, most like.

I'd be curious just to see his reaction. How overwhelmed he might be, or not.

Then again, he might have become used to Mannimarco by now, after having been his guest for about half a year

Except for half of that time he was Wormblood's prisoner and for the other half, it's Mannimarco in Wormblood's body. It's probably been a good long while since he's seen Mannimarco's body, regardless of its condition. So it might take him a moment to collect himself. Or he might see Mannimarco's face and just start hurling lighting.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Why not, though? He's meant to be some kind of prodigy, isn't he? He and Vanus both. We also don't even really know how old he was then.

Prodigy or not, I think getting used to things just takes time. Getting used to normally repulsive things even more so. It's not about knowledge or capability, after all.

Well, I'm not talking about normalcy here. Mannimarco might be many things, but normal is not one of them. If his mindset was fully on his power and testing the limits and capabilities of it, everything else might have been put in service of that. He might have initially recoiled at some of it, but reasoned that disgust away. After all, he tells Vanus, "There is no right and wrong--only power and weakness." That's in the flashback. So whatever age he is there, he's come to that conclusion.

Syldras wrote: »

We don't know his exact age, but if he hadn't been young anymore as a novice, that would be hardly prodigious

I've been trying to find out what rank they were in those flashbacks, or a clue to what age they might have been, but I can't find anything other than that they were "classmates." Where did you find the information that he was a novice then?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think building a gradual interest in something is difficult to depict in a game like ESO, particularly with the way the timeline works (or doesn't, as the case may be). But it would be nice to see it somehow. A recurring character whose interest and skills are increased each time you see them, and in conversation you learn something of how they've progressed.

If we can't really see it within quests, they could just use the usual diaries. But with necromancers they somehow act like those had just always been like that. No doubts, no difficulties.

Most necromancers we meet in game are already well along their path to evil, so we don't even know how long they've been practicing or what motivated them. It would be very interesting to see one just starting out, and see them have doubts or reservations about some of the rituals and magic. See them work through it. At least, I would find it interesting. I'm not sure what kind of quest or interaction would go along with that, or whether most people would care.

A diary would work fine, sure. I'd just like something with a little more depth and interaction.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Sure you could: Just spin up another template character (or whatever they give you) and run that two hour quest again!
Seriously, though, hopefully your characters get the copy seal of approval.

The fortress will remain a problem - but at least my main has decent gear, all CPs assigned, and I'm used to his skills. That might make it a bit easier.

Also, I suggested on the PTS forum (unfortunately didn't get any direct reply yet) to give us a way to skip that fortress somehow - even if it's just as simple as directly activating quest #7 (fortress is quest #6) for us. No need to even mark the fortress as completed, just give us quest markers for the next quest on the East, so we can progress from there. It would make things much easier.

I don't think that fortress testing is much needed anyway, as everything there seems to function more or less (the few bugs have already been reported), and we're just not enough people on PTS to test it in a reasonable way anyway.

They might make changes to it, too, based on what people are experiencing. Maybe? Or maybe not.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I mean, when you go to Vvardenfell, pretty early on one of your dialogue options is: What's the tribunal? For me, the big change is they stopped making those dialogue choices optional

There were many players back then who started playing ESO with that chapter (although I guess many of them were fans of TES 3, so they knew who the Tribunal is) - considering new players, some of them maybe completely unfamiliar with TES lore, I'm not against these questions - if they're optional. The biggest problem is that they often aren't.

I know they put them in there for people who don't know the lore. My point is, they're nothing but exposition dialogue that makes the Vestige look silly. I can easily ignore them when they're optional. But like I said, the big change for me was they stopped making them optional. That, and the excessive repetition of plot points are what really drag the writing down for me.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I figure he used the name Wormblood because otherwise the riff-raff of the Worm Cult might not recognize his superiority and/or leadership. Besides, maybe he likes it and doesn't think it's weird to use at all. I think it's weird. You think it's weird. He might think it's the perfect name. We'll never know, because we never got to know him.

Or maybe Mannimarco gave him that name because he found it funny. In the next Worm Cult story, we might see his mates Wormwood, Wormroot and Wormrot. Maybe also Wormsoul, Wormspawn and Wormling, of course. The practical side of it is that Mannimarco doesn't need to remember different nicknames for them; he can just call all of them Wormy.

That's certainly efficient, and if that was his reason I could understand it. Somehow I don't see the King of Worms as having much of a sense of humor, though. He takes things so seriously, all of the time.

So I was traipsing through Solstice today, doing some side quests as I went along on the main quest for my sorceress. I came to the Nord village, and the guy tells me they need help, and I get into conversation with him about Britt. He told me: "When King Jorunn created the Nord Cultural Exchange and put Rigurt in charge, Britt was still quite young." That got me to thinking about the timeline in the game and wondering if there was some way to tease out how much time had passed.

So I then asked the guy to tell me about the Cultural Exchange, and he said the King Jorunn started it to help bring various factions of the Pact together. The Pact was formed in 2E 572, but from the first Cultural Exchange quest in Mournhold, I got the idea it was Rigurt's first foray, so seems like the Exchange was created in 2E 582. If that's true, and Britt was "quite young" at the time, it seems like it's been at least ten years. I don't know what Nords consider "quite young." Ten? Younger? I also don't know how old Britt is supposed to be when we meet her. Twenty? Anyway, it's not much more than vague supposition, but it still caught my interest, because I just really want to know what year we're in now.

Also, both Walks and this Nord guy mentioned that Rigurt was on Solstice on his own special mission. Did we ever find out anything about that? I never saw Rigurt after he sulkily walked away after I found Walks. So I missed something, or there wasn't anything to find, or it's still to come.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm not concerned with what any Daedric Prince thinks of it. You aren't showing the thrall to them; you're taking it to a festival/celebration where that kind of thing tends to not happen.

How do you know that? Maybe it's common that people take their necromantic thralls to festivities. They might just act so normally that you won't notice they're just dead puppets without any brain activity. Which, in many cases, isn't that different to how many people behave anyway

Well now you're just being contrarian.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm...not sure what your point is here. You asked if he liked surprises; I said I think he does not. You think he was lying about being annoyed the Worm Cult is back?

He might have found it exciting. Something different for once! Finally an opportunity to get kidnapped again!

Well, it's not possible for us to say. We'd have to ask him about it directly, and we can't do that right now.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Except for half of that time he was Wormblood's prisoner and for the other half, it's Mannimarco in Wormblood's body. It's probably been a good long while since he's seen Mannimarco's body, regardless of its condition. So it might take him a moment to collect himself. Or he might see Mannimarco's face and just start hurling lighting.

That's not very well-mannered.

Says the Telvanni who shows up with gross dead things as a surprise.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, I'm not talking about normalcy here. Mannimarco might be many things, but normal is not one of them. If his mindset was fully on his power and testing the limits and capabilities of it, everything else might have been put in service of that. He might have initially recoiled at some of it, but reasoned that disgust away. After all, he tells Vanus, "There is no right and wrong--only power and weakness." That's in the flashback. So whatever age he is there, he's come to that conclusion.

I wouldn't conclude from that that this is already his stable mindset at that point. He might also say it to justify his behavior to himself and silence his remaining doubts. He grew up in Altmer society, he clearly knew their opinion on what he was doing; he knew they saw it as immoral, evil and maybe insane. You don't overcome your upbringing and your society's expectations in just a short time.

Normal people might not, but he wasn't normal. He claims to be Aldmer. Setting aside the logical possibility of that, he claims it so it he must believe it, or think others will believe it, or both. Anyway, if he had only said that one line one time, maybe it wouldn't mean his ideas on it are firm. But that series of flashbacks took place over time and in each of them he shows a similar decision of mind, arrogance, and belief of his own infallibility. This is not a mer who doubts himself. Whatever qualms he may have once had about necromancy (or been brought up to have) are gone by the time we see those Artaeum flashbacks.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I've been trying to find out what rank they were in those flashbacks, or a clue to what age they might have been, but I can't find anything other than that they were "classmates." Where did you find the information that he was a novice then?

It was in one of Vanny's writings. I've also found this:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Esulo
"Mannimarco spent his youth experimenting in the vault"
It doesn't state his rank, but "youth" certainly does limit the age range.

It does limit it, though for Altmer I think the "youth" period lasts longer than it does for other races. However, I'm not saying he wasn't what passes for young among Altmer. I do think his mind was firmly made up about necromancy by that point.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Most necromancers we meet in game are already well along their path to evil, so we don't even know how long they've been practicing or what motivated them. It would be very interesting to see one just starting out, and see them have doubts or reservations about some of the rituals and magic. See them work through it. At least, I would find it interesting. I'm not sure what kind of quest or interaction would go along with that, or whether most people would care.
A diary would work fine, sure. I'd just like something with a little more depth and interaction.

I want anything really that ends the clichéd depiction of the later years, of how evil npcs are nothing more but evil and have always been evil, so they're the cardboard enemies for this game (Of course unless they're from the Dark Brotherhood, since "void-worshipping assassin cultists = cool", so these get portrayed as positive characters all the time we come across them).

Yeah, the Dark Brotherhood getting a pass is odd. Maybe it's because they're amoral? Anyone does a little ritual and the Brotherhood is on the case, no judgments. Kind of frightening, really. I find it kind of funny when people complain about losing rapport with their companions when they Blade of Woe someone or when they go on a murder spree for the Dark Brotherhood. My first thought is always: why do you bring a friend to your assassinations?

Anyway, I've been thinking about the "villains" of recent chapters. For Necrom/West Weald, it was Torvesaard and Ithelia? Not villains so much as just people Mora didn't like, but definitely not "evil." I had my own issues with the storyline in general, but the characterizations of the antagonists were at least not one-dimensional. Even the Bosmer bad guy had his reasons.

For High Isle/Galen it was Ascendant Lord/Lord Baccaro, and his motivations weren't just evil, at least not to start; he did end up in cardboard villain territory.

Blackwood/Deadlands was, well, Dagon. Not evil so much as an immutable force of destruction. Then the thing with the Ambitions guy whose name I don't recall. Oh, wait, in Blackwood itself there was that council guy, too. Goodness, I think I've erased most of Blackwood from my memory. I blame Eveli. But I think all the "baddies" aside from Dagon had their reasons and weren't evil from day one.

But remember the article that started this whole thread? About going back to the Worm Cult because they're evil and everyone hates them and it's fun to beat up on evil? It's true that the Worm Cult wasn't given much characterization in base game other than "evil" either. So we were never going to get a nuanced Worm Cult or Worm Cult leader, were we? The mission statement was: these guys are evil.

No, there wasn't much point to all that. Yes, I was rambling.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

They might make changes to it, too, based on what people are experiencing. Maybe? Or maybe not.

They would probably want to introduce some kind of scaling. Which might need testing. I just think the way it's right now, it's... just not good for the testing process of East Solstice content. The quest feedback threads are basically empty because many players don't even seem to have gotten to that point yet. Or there's nothing they'd like to say. Which I don't think is the case.

I'm still thinking about how to word my feedback... I've already taken notes while questing, of course, but I want to provide my content well-sorted and in the most effective way

Well, actually, it would be best if I could go through some of those quests again before giving a final feedback, maybe even on another character for dialogue comparisons, but when will I get that opportunity? I think I'll wait for later today, to look whether my characters have finally been copied - if so, I'll test more, if not, I'll send my review.

Well, if I wasn't avoiding PTS threads, I'm sure I'd like to read it! I think you could give your review on the experience you had with the test character. It wouldn't necessarily have to be your final feedback, especially if they release any updates for the PTS.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That, and the excessive repetition of plot points are what really drag the writing down for me.

Indeed. It's also the wording. Background lore questions could easily be worded in a more subtle way instead of direct questions.

That they could. Dialogue that's more akin to how people actually talk would be nice, too. I mean, how they would talk in the world of ESO--I don't mean modern day speech patterns.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That's certainly efficient, and if that was his reason I could understand it. Somehow I don't see the King of Worms as having much of a sense of humor, though. He takes things so seriously, all of the time.

That's rather unusual as evil wizards are usually leading a rather amusing life.

Are they? Well, I've never seen Mannimarco amused.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

So I was traipsing through Solstice today, doing some side quests as I went along on the main quest for my sorceress. I came to the Nord village, and the guy tells me they need help, and I get into conversation with him about Britt. He told me: "When King Jorunn created the Nord Cultural Exchange and put Rigurt in charge, Britt was still quite young." That got me to thinking about the timeline in the game and wondering if there was some way to tease out how much time had passed.
So I then asked the guy to tell me about the Cultural Exchange, and he said the King Jorunn started it to help bring various factions of the Pact together. The Pact was formed in 2E 572, but from the first Cultural Exchange quest in Mournhold, I got the idea it was Rigurt's first foray, so seems like the Exchange was created in 2E 582. If that's true, and Britt was "quite young" at the time, it seems like it's been at least ten years. I don't know what Nords consider "quite young." Ten? Younger? I also don't know how old Britt is supposed to be when we meet her. Twenty? Anyway, it's not much more than vague supposition, but it still caught my interest, because I just really want to know what year we're in now.

Maybe the writer indeed had those 10 real world years in mind.

Then again, during one's youth, so many things change withing only a few years. A 13-year-old is still clearly a child, but a 16-year-old could already become an apprentice. An 18-year-old might be seen as a young, but adult person. That's just 5 years, or even just 3 years between a child and an apprentice-aged individual. Then again, you'd probably not talk about someone having been "quite young back then" if you're talking about just 3 years ago. I'd say it's minimum 5 years, maybe even more, up to 10.

It's the specific wording of "quite young" that made me wonder. Not knowing how old she's meant to be now makes it hard to say. I get the impression she's early twenties, but it's possible she's meant to be younger, more like eighteen. I don't know enough about Nords to know when they consider the youth to be able to go out and do their own thing.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, both Walks and this Nord guy mentioned that Rigurt was on Solstice on his own special mission. Did we ever find out anything about that? I never saw Rigurt after he sulkily walked away after I found Walks. So I missed something, or there wasn't anything to find, or it's still to come.

Didn't he show up somewhere around that Nord village again?

I haven't seen him anywhere other than where he pops up when we're looking for the Pact Representative. Then he mope-walks his way down the hill. I followed him once to see if he actually went anywhere specific, but he disappeared into the landscape like npcs do. And the guy outside the Nord village mentioned that Rigurt wasn't available for this particular cultural exchange because he had a "secret mission" of his own to do. But I'll look around again, see if he's hiding in the bushes or something.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Says the Telvanni who shows up with gross dead things as a surprise.

Gross?! Well, that's not very friendly either! If I ever introduce any thralls to you, please refrain from calling them gross. You'd hurt their feelings if they still had some.

I make no promises.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Normal people might not, but he wasn't normal. He claims to be Aldmer. Setting aside the logical possibility of that, he claims it so it he must believe it, or think others will believe it, or both.

Simple braggery. Trying to impress his idiot cultists. Or just emphasizing his noble heritage.

Could be that; could be what I suggested; could be something else entirely. We're unlikely to ever know.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Anyway, if he had only said that one line one time, maybe it wouldn't mean his ideas on it are firm. But that series of flashbacks took place over time and in each of them he shows a similar decision of mind, arrogance, and belief of his own infallibility. This is not a mer who doubts himself. Whatever qualms he may have once had about necromancy (or been brought up to have) are gone by the time we see those Artaeum flashbacks.

But it would be interesting to see that for once, would it not? Anything? Even if through flashbacks or an old diary somehow? Since if a character has nothing "human" about them, it's hardly interesting to even think about them.

Yes, it would be interesting to see how Mannimarco got to the point where we see him in the flashbacks. I think we've talked about that before. What led him to this path? Not just necromancy, but plans for godhood, too, and to start claiming he's Aldmer. Conversely, if he actually truly is Aldmer...well, what the heck has he been doing this whole time? I'm sure achieving a god state takes awhile, but you'd think he'd have had other things going to.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It does limit it, though for Altmer I think the "youth" period lasts longer than it does for other races.

I think their adulthood lasts longer, and they're also old for a long time, but they don't spend decades being youths. Now, there might possibly be a small difference between Altmer and Dunmer, but Barenziah, for example, is said to have left home at 16 and married at 18. And how old was Ayrenn in the base game? 27, I think? And I'd clearly say she isn't in her youth anymore.

I figured Ayrenn was older than that, not because of evidence or lore or anything, but because it just seemed like she was. Didn't Barenziah basically run away from home because she didn't want to follow the life plans made for her? It's been a long time since I read the Barenziah books, and I might be thinking instead of "The Real Barenziah" series which was akin to an unauthorized and unsubstantiated biography. It was a good read, though. I spent a lot of time in Skyrim tracking that set down for my home library.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, the Dark Brotherhood getting a pass is odd. Maybe it's because they're amoral? Anyone does a little ritual and the Brotherhood is on the case, no judgments. Kind of frightening, really.

Media trope. Assassins are "cool". Even psychopathic serial killers already got tv shows where they were depicted as the fascinating main character. For me it feels arbitrary; from the moral standpoint I don't think one murder cult is better or worse than another.

I'm all for being able to play an evil character in ESO, but I'd prefer an open depiction where moral stances aren't predefined for us. Just give us options, let our character decide whom to join and how to act, with npcs showing reactions that make sense for the depicted world.

I really dislike the romanticizing of serial killers we see in modern media. Anyway, I was thinking about the Dark Brotherhood's depiction in the Elder Scrolls and I actually don't think they're meant to be beloved or really even accepted by the Tamriel populace. (Players, of course, being a different category.) There are npc reactions that show this, even if they aren't that well handled (Eveli lecturing the player, for example). The ritual to call upon the Brotherhood is seen as dark magic, I believe. And, of course, it's not supposed to be a topic for casual conversation among citizens. It's just really hard to convey that in an MMO where players do casual murder dailies for the Brotherhood. In Skyrim you could choose to wipe out the Brotherhood if you wanted. Ah, the true choice of single player games! It's funny to me that Naryu thinks the Dark Brotherhood is bad not because of the murder aspect, but because it lacks the bureaucracy of the Morag Tong, with their writ system.

I wonder if ESO would ever venture down the path where a player could choose to 1. Sign up with the Brotherhood, 2. Ignore the existence of the Brotherhood, 3. Work with law enforcement (so, town guards, militia?) to dismantle the Brotherhood, or 4. Infiltrate and take down the Brotherhood from within. Different choices that, once you chose, would lock you out of the other paths. Though I guess if you started by ignoring them, you could go back later and join or fight them. But the point being, the world state wouldn't be the same for every player once they chose the "destroy" or "join" path. Except I know MMOs don't like content like that, so I know it would never happen, and players probably wouldn't like it, and so forth and etc.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Anyway, I've been thinking about the "villains" of recent chapters.

I mean, strictly seen, Mannimarco has reasons for what he's doing, too. The question is more whether these reasons are interesting, how the character's thoughts and deeds are depicted - it's the details that make it interesting or not. You could even make something interesting out of Mannimarco's apotheosis plans. The problem is that the depiction remains superficial. We don't learn much about his feelings, there's no tragic or interesting backstory. How did he even come to lead a cult that worships Molag Bal, or how did he develop his longing to basically become an immortal, divine Aldmer "again"? Did he have weird dreams as a kid? Was it bad influence by stories about some ancestor? Did he read an old diary he shouldn't have seen? Did he fall out of his crib, hit his head too hard and had a "vision"? People don't just wake up one morning and decide they'd pursue godhood plans. And I don't think they're born like that either.

Sure, he has reasons, but isn't the point that his reasons are all characterized as wrong and evil? We're never given the chance to see his reasons in any other light, like we could with Lord Baccaro.

Generally speaking, I don't like "tragic backstory" as motivator. It's overused to the extent that seemingly no one ever pursues a path because it's something they want, they're only doing it because of past tragedy. I also don't think people are born a certain way that predefines their destiny/actions, so when I say Mannimarco isn't normal, I mean that's a result of his life--his upbringing, his choices, his experiences. Yes, I would like to know what those details are. I don't think we'll ever get them, though.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But remember the article that started this whole thread? About going back to the Worm Cult because they're evil and everyone hates them and it's fun to beat up on evil? It's true that the Worm Cult wasn't given much characterization in base game other than "evil" either. So we were never going to get a nuanced Worm Cult or Worm Cult leader, were we? The mission statement was: these guys are evil.

I remember. And I'm saying I find that boring. Even worse it if's more or less the same story twice.

It also makes a difference to me how often we come across a character and how much of a role that character plays in TES lore. I don't need a detailed backstory for some "evil" guy we only see for 5 minutes. But Mannimarco is so central for TES lore as a whole, and we had two whole stories centered on what his cult is doing now, still we know barely anything. It's almost frustrating in a way.

I agree it's a boring way to approach it (I think I may have even said so waaaay back on page one or two). It is frustrating to be told what to think and feel about a character rather than deciding for ourselves through the character's presentation in the game. But this isn't a single player game and we don't get to choose sides. We're in this to be in opposition to Mannimarco and the story is told starting from that basic premise. We're meant to accept that he's evil and needs to be stopped, and so the only thing we ever really learn about him is what various bad or evil things he's done. Since we "defeated" him in base game, I think bringing him back for a retread wasn't the best idea, but it's the one they went with. I don't know their reasons for not giving more backstory for him. Those Artaeum flashbacks were interesting, and yet we never got anything else like that, or anything from before he was set as the character we know. I was really hoping to find a family connection between Mannimarco and Clan Corelanya, or at least find out how he even knew about them and Solstice, but we didn't.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, if I wasn't avoiding PTS threads, I'm sure I'd like to read it! I think you could give your review on the experience you had with the test character. It wouldn't necessarily have to be your final feedback, especially if they release any updates for the PTS.

I'm thinking about it.

I've set up my US server character now, by the way. How long might it take until Hero's Return pops up? 2 months? 3?

To be on the safe side, I would wait three. It was between two and three on my alternate account, but I wasn't keeping exact track since I really didn't expect to have it pop up.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That they could. Dialogue that's more akin to how people actually talk would be nice, too. I mean, how they would talk in the world of ESO--I don't mean modern day speech patterns.

I'd like that, but I'd be a little wary when it comes to the possible result. Maybe we'd just get lots of idioms about fish biscuits and cracked acorns... What are fish biscuits even?

Biscuits in the U.S. are a bread-like food (they're in the 'quick bread' category). Biscuits in the U.K. are cookies. So fish biscuits are either fishy bread or fishy cookies. Basically, kitty treats. Or that interpretation is entirely wrong and fish biscuits is some kind of Khajiit slang that means something else.

I do like the slang and idioms that come up from time to time in ESO. There is the chance they'd get overused, though.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Are they? Well, I've never seen Mannimarco amused.

Now that I'm thinking about it: Don't we get an evil laugh from him from time to time? I remember Wormblood's laughter, of course ("Your soul will be mine! Hahahahaha!"), but wasn't Mannimarco laughing, too, at least sometimes, when he wasn't annoyed or angry?

Was he? It's possible. I can't recall him laughing. Mocking. Smug. Smirking. He does that pretty well. That speech he gives us in Sancre Tor about how everyone is going to bow down to him--he might have had some kind of manic laugh there, but I really don't remember such.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I haven't seen him anywhere other than where he pops up when we're looking for the Pact Representative. Then he mope-walks his way down the hill. I followed him once to see if he actually went anywhere specific, but he disappeared into the landscape like npcs do. And the guy outside the Nord village mentioned that Rigurt wasn't available for this particular cultural exchange because he had a "secret mission" of his own to do. But I'll look around again, see if he's hiding in the bushes or something.

I'm honestly not sure anymore whether I saw him there somewhere or not. Unfortunately, UESP doesn't have anything on that yet. It always takes some time after a new content release to update articles.

What I can say is that I didn't see him in East Solstice anywhere (although of course, I could have missed him). So he's probably not accendentally wandered through the Wall somehow

Maybe he managed to slip through a crack in the Wall and was immediately captured. We don't free him, because why would we, and the Worm Cult gets to keep him forever, since it's unlikely we take them down for good this time either.

Realistically, it was probably just a line put in to explain why he wasn't leading the Cultural Exchange this time around, and there was never going to be anything more about his mission. Oh, it was also there to explain why they tried to give us a shock by having him initially appear in the place where the Pact representative was to be found; a bit of misdirection. So, double duty for one throwaway line isn't too shabby.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I make no promises.

You won't even notice! I'll restore them to an almost life-like status beforehand.

I'm still going to pass on the whole deal. Or experience. Or...whatever it was you had planned.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Conversely, if he actually truly is Aldmer...well, what the heck has he been doing this whole time? I'm sure achieving a god state takes awhile, but you'd think he'd have had other things going to.

The Aldmer split into different groups of mer (and by that ceased to exist as a people) during the Middle Merithic Era. Vanny left Artaeum around 2E 230. Between that lies a timespan of several thousands years. If Mannimarco was in his youth in 2E, he definitely can't be Aldmer (let alone he wasn't that powerful back then, which also hints at him not having been that old at that time).

I was mostly joking about him being Aldmer. I'm aware of the inconsistencies presented. I think it's interesting/funny how he keeps to the claim of being Aldmer without ever presenting anything to back it up.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In Skyrim you could choose to wipe out the Brotherhood if you wanted.

Which I did, simply because my character doesn't enjoy being bossed around by some random hag sitting on a wardrobe.

I wouldn't say she was random, exactly, but yes I had more or less the same reaction.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's funny to me that Naryu thinks the Dark Brotherhood is bad not because of the murder aspect, but because it lacks the bureaucracy of the Morag Tong, with their writ system.

There's really not that much of a diference. Both kill random people. In case of the DB, you need to call them by ritual. In case of the MT, all that's need is enough money for the execution writ.

I don't think there's any difference, really. But the speech you can get from her in game about being part of the Brotherhood amuses me. An assassin telling you that her assassin group is ok but yours is not.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Sure, he has reasons, but isn't the point that his reasons are all characterized as wrong and evil? We're never given the chance to see his reasons in any other light, like we could with Lord Baccaro.

That's why I had hoped for more background lore and a better characterization of Mannimarco and the Cult, which would include questions about their world view and their motivations - apart from "being evil, apotheosis plans, Planemeld".

Well, I did, too. Because "Worm Cult's back...somehow!" didn't seem like much of a story to me. Oh well.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Generally speaking, I don't like "tragic backstory" as motivator. It's overused to the extent that seemingly no one ever pursues a path because it's something they want, they're only doing it because of past tragedy.

Just because some event in the past might have led to a certain world view, knowledge, or values, doesn't mean it's not a chosen path. It can absolutely be a choice made based on what one saw before. We're all shaped by past life experiences. All our choices are - we don't just get some idea out of thin air; what we experienced in live led us to a certain way of thinking, and that's the fundament of the ideas we'll get.

Let's say Mannimarco was Corelanyan: Then his view of necromancy could be shaped by Corelanyan history - on the one hand, it could have made him recognize it's usefulness, on the other hand, his dream of a freely necromancy-tolerating, daedra-worshipping society could be based on his knowledge about how that led to his ancestors being forced into exile. Knowledge about the Ra Gada invasion could have made him think about how this slaughtering of his ancestors would have not happened if they had still been immortal, godly Aldmer - undefeatable and in no way tangible by any other of Tamriel's people, be it humans or beastfolk. That's not excusing what he's doing, but it would make us understand why he is doing all this. Because even "the evil guys" don't usually think of themselves as evil, they believe their plans have a purpose beyond that.

Ok, you're giving it much more complexity than the trope usually has. The way it's used that I don't like is when there's a single event--one single tragic event--in someone's past, and that one event becomes their entire reason for existence. I know we're all shaped by past life experiences; I'm a human being living a life, not a robot, after all.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I also don't think people are born a certain way that predefines their destiny/actions, so when I say Mannimarco isn't normal, I mean that's a result of his life--his upbringing, his choices, his experiences.

I don't find him unnormal. He's intelligent, and has grown ruthless over the years, of course he has become very powerful over those centuries, but he doesn't seem weird, incomprehensible or much different than the average moral-rejecting person to me. Give any average cultist or even just power-hungry noble the same power Mannimarco has developed - 90% would probably end up being about the same. He has his ideals and plans, for society and for himself, and works on them. Many people do exactly that. The only difference is that some of these ideals and plans clash a bit more with the ideals and plans of general society, while others do not.

I'm comparing his normalcy to the other people in the world of ESO. Most of them are not like him. He is an outlier; therefore not in the norm. It has nothing to do with how weird he might seem to others, or whether or not I can comprehend his motivations.

I'm curious, though, which of his ideals and plans you think don't clash with the ideals and plans of the general society of Tamriel. Any of his plans I know about don't end up too well for the general society.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't know their reasons for not giving more backstory for him. Those Artaeum flashbacks were interesting, and yet we never got anything else like that, or anything from before he was set as the character we know. I was really hoping to find a family connection between Mannimarco and Clan Corelanya, or at least find out how he even knew about them and Solstice, but we didn't.

The Artaeum flashbacks hinted at a good direction. They generally did so much character background lore back then, a big part of the CWC dlc was basically just that. We didn't see that in later stories anymore. Not sure what caused the change, but if the storytelling was still on that level it was in the early years, I'm very sure the new Worm Cult story would have looked different.

You think? Because the Worm Cult looks pretty much the same as they did in base game. They didn't have nuance then, either. Our introduction to them was: hey, they're bad and need defeating.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

To be on the safe side, I would wait three. It was between two and three on my alternate account, but I wasn't keeping exact track since I really didn't expect to have it pop up.

So it looks like I'll have something to do at the end of December then.

For when the New Life Festival begins to pall.

Syldras wrote: »

Oh, which reminds me: My characters still haven't been copied to PTS. So another week I won't be able to do any more testing. What a pity. So it's next Monday then, I guess. If needs to be; it's only 2 weeks left until the Wall event starts then.

Well that's a bummer.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Biscuits in the U.S. are a bread-like food (they're in the 'quick bread' category). Biscuits in the U.K. are cookies. So fish biscuits are either fishy bread or fishy cookies. Basically, kitty treats. Or that interpretation is entirely wrong and fish biscuits is some kind of Khajiit slang that means something else.

I rarely use Ember, but doesn't she use it while swearing? So it doesn't sound like it's supposed to be something positive? Anyway, these exist, too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishcake

It does have that swearing vibe. When she makes a mistake she tends to say, "Oh, fish biscuits!" I guess if moon sugar is what makes food taste good to you, a fish biscuit could seem kind of like an abomination of food.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Was he? It's possible. I can't recall him laughing. Mocking. Smug. Smirking. He does that pretty well. That speech he gives us in Sancre Tor about how everyone is going to bow down to him--he might have had some kind of manic laugh there, but I really don't remember such.

I'm not sure why, but for some reason, it always amuses me.

His speech amuses you? Or the images he conjures of himself super big and everyone else super tiny? Because it's kind of amusing; Tharn even comments on it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Maybe he managed to slip through a crack in the Wall and was immediately captured. We don't free him, because why would we, and the Worm Cult gets to keep him forever, since it's unlikely we take them down for good this time either.

He might become the new Wormblood.

Well, he's doomed, then.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Realistically, it was probably just a line put in to explain why he wasn't leading the Cultural Exchange this time around, and there was never going to be anything more about his mission. Oh, it was also there to explain why they tried to give us a shock by having him initially appear in the place where the Pact representative was to be found; a bit of misdirection. So, double duty for one throwaway line isn't too shabby.

I see what the intention might have been, but I personally prefer npcs not to randomly show up and disappear again after they've just spoken a few lines.

When it's Rigurt, I really don't mind. I actually was dismayed to see him there the first time I did the quest. I think I said out loud to my computer screen, "You've got to be kidding me...Rigurt?" So their misdirection worked on me. As to whether or not it's a good use of an npc...probably not.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I was mostly joking about him being Aldmer. I'm aware of the inconsistencies presented. I think it's interesting/funny how he keeps to the claim of being Aldmer without ever presenting anything to back it up.

You'd be surprised how many people believe it. UESP is full of articles calling him Aldmer and it comes up in related lore-discussions all the time. If people who don't know that much about the lore believe it (probably mostly because they read it somewhere being stated like that), I'm not astounded; but it's a little strange to me if I see it among people who are actually rather knowledgeable about TES lore, because they must have thought a bit about the timeline at some point.

I think it's also because there's a lore book where Mannimarco states having been around for some incident in the way back past, the dragon break one. We know the lore books aren't always 100% accurate, that there is author bias in them (I mean the fictional authors, not the real world people who wrote them), but in Tamriel lore there still exists a book that sort of, kind of backs up his Aldmer claim. I know it's not a valid source, as far as these things go, but it does exist.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't think there's any difference, really. But the speech you can get from her in game about being part of the Brotherhood amuses me. An assassin telling you that her assassin group is ok but yours is not.

It might also be a bit of a belief conflict. It's well-known whom the DB worships, but I think many people think of the MT as more secular than it is, since the games don't emphasize that aspect as much as we see it with the DB. But still, they're Mephala worshippers. They believe the souls of everyone they kill was sent to Mephala.

Honestly there's not much to choose between them, though I do think the Morag Tong might appeal more to those who don't want to get their hands dirty in a grisly ritual--providing they have enough gold. Really, the Tong is the rich person's assassination tool, and the Dark Brotherhood is for everyone.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, I did, too. Because "Worm Cult's back...somehow!" didn't seem like much of a story to me. Oh well.

A wasted opportunity, most of all. This is really what irks me most: They probably won't return for a third time (or at least not within the next decade, probably), so what we get in the current story is possibly the last Mannimarco and Worm Cult lore we'll get.

It is disappointing, but it does seem, based on the quote from the article, that they weren't really intending to go more into the lore. That is, the Worm Cult was chosen because "everyone already knew" they were bad, and it hearkened back to the game's beginning. A bit of nostalgia. I don't think it's the greatest basis for creating a story, but the game's tenth anniversary and etc.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Ok, you're giving it much more complexity than the trope usually has. The way it's used that I don't like is when there's a single event--one single tragic event--in someone's past, and that one event becomes their entire reason for existence. I know we're all shaped by past life experiences; I'm a human being living a life, not a robot, after all.

I know you are, but I generally see astonishingly often how people seem to ignore this fact. Many already fail to understand that not everyone thinks the same way, has the same world view, shares the same values, etc., so the reasons for that, like a different upbringing or different experience, don't even come to their mind. I see weird generalizations all the time ("Everyone likes...", "Everyone knows...", "Everyone has made the experience that,...").

I see those around, too. That's why I do my best to represent my thoughts and opinions with "I" statements. That's actually something we were taught in teacher training--don't start sentences by telling students, "You need to," when what you really mean is "I need you to." Anyway, yes, people do like to claim their experiences as universal.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm comparing his normalcy to the other people in the world of ESO. Most of them are not like him. He is an outlier; therefore not in the norm. It has nothing to do with how weird he might seem to others, or whether or not I can comprehend his motivations.

Then we have a lot of outliers, though. All those cult leaders. All greater explorers. Even every scholar, since most people are most probably not scholars, but farmers, artisans, merchants or other commoners whose life is mostly focussed on manual labor (or trade) and their own village or city.

It does seem like a lot, because that's who we're interacting with and learning about. Kind of like how history is taught in general--the focus is on the people who did the different thing, broke with norms, and were somehow notable. Yet compared to how many people there actually are (or were, at the time), the explorers, scholars and cult leaders are still outliers. There have been plenty of serial killers throughout time, and we know about many of them, but that doesn't make them the norm. Same with explorers and even scholars.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm curious, though, which of his ideals and plans you think don't clash with the ideals and plans of the general society of Tamriel. Any of his plans I know about don't end up too well for the general society.

Oh, I didn't only mean Mannimarco when it comes to that. His goals might not be that socially compatible at all I was speaking about all those people in Tamriel who have greater plans for changing the status quo somehow. Leaders of organizations and cults or what ever type of communities. Obviously, "ending the world" might not be a too popular plan. But "ending the war" might be something people agree with much more.

Ah, I see. Yeah, it was easy for me to understand why someone might follow the Ascendant Lord, but I don't think I can ever fully understand the mindset of a Dagonite.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You think? Because the Worm Cult looks pretty much the same as they did in base game. They didn't have nuance then, either. Our introduction to them was: hey, they're bad and need defeating.

The base game depiction might not have been too interesting, but what we saw on Artaeum could be seen as a possible hint they'd like to get into more background lore over time. Those scenes wouldn't have been absolutely neccessary to tell the chapter's story, and it would also have been plausible if the Psijics had sealed the whole vault and just acted like nothing ever happened there. But the writers decided to give us this story.

I always looked at the Artaeum flashbacks as Vanus Galerion and Mannimarco lore as it intersected with Psijic lore. I think the Psijics did seal it off and act like it had never happened, because the only reason we found out about it was the npc had stolen an artifact so she could explore it and find out the truth. I really don't think the intent was to give Worm Cult lore.

For Worm Cult lore, we have that pamphlet that circulates on Solstice, which actually did more to interest me in the average cultist than anything else I'd seen. It at least gave ideas for some of their motivations--they might be in it for world domination, or maybe they just want to practice necromancy in peace, or perhaps they really want the warm bed and regular meals.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

For when the New Life Festival begins to pall.

New quests this time, by the way. The old ones will remain in the game, but there will be a new quest npc at the tent.

Oh, that's cool! I don't much care for the New Life repeatable quests. As far as lore goes, they're interesting enough--the different ways the different cultures celebrate--but I don't care to actually participate in them. Usually I just do the Old Life quest to see which ghost of my character's past is going to haunt him. That quest can actually be quite moving, depending on who shows up.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well that's a bummer.

And even if I get my characters copied next Monday, I'm still not sure whether they'll unlock the East Solstice quests for people who don't want to run through that stupid fortress again then. I suggested it, but there wasn't a reaction yet. It really makes a huge difference for me; if I could just quest, sure, I'd do more testing, maybe even on several characters! But the fortress demotivates me. I don't need to see it again and it's most probably at least 2 hours of time I'd rather do something different.

I understand they want people to test the fortress and all, but it does seem like it would be better to have all the content easily accessible so people could test it over and over, particularly if something gets changed or fixed.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It does have that swearing vibe. When she makes a mistake she tends to say, "Oh, fish biscuits!" I guess if moon sugar is what makes food taste good to you, a fish biscuit could seem kind of like an abomination of food.

I think she doesn't enjoy fishing, either. Although that might be because she probably finds standing around for a long time boring.

I've heard she doesn't like fishing; I've never fished while I've had her active. The character I have who runs with Ember doesn't do much standing around, either.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, he's doomed, then.

He'll orchestrate the Worm Cult's third return No one will know how and why, but that's probably not important.

Lol! Is it possible to make the Worm Cult even more bumbling?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

When it's Rigurt, I really don't mind. I actually was dismayed to see him there the first time I did the quest. I think I said out loud to my computer screen, "You've got to be kidding me...Rigurt?" So their misdirection worked on me. As to whether or not it's a good use of an npc...probably not.

I immediately suspected there must be someone else around somewhere. If it's a more serious matter, even the Skald King wouldn't send Rigurt. Although it would probably be a good opportunity to get rid of him for good.

I don't place as much dependence on the Skald King's judgment as you do, then. He's the guy who noped out of the peace talks in High Isle because he was smitten with a new girlfriend, if I recall correctly. I do realize the actual reason was probably voice actor related, but the writers could have given him any reason at all to send his son in his stead, and they chose that one. And, yes, it would have been a good opportunity to send Rigurt to his doom, but since the Skald King apparently gave him a different "secret mission," he'll probably scrape through it all right. I wonder if that mission was in any way related to mead.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think it's also because there's a lore book where Mannimarco states having been around for some incident in the way back past, the dragon break one. We know the lore books aren't always 100% accurate, that there is author bias in them (I mean the fictional authors, not the real world people who wrote them), but in Tamriel lore there still exists a book that sort of, kind of backs up his Aldmer claim. I know it's not a valid source, as far as these things go, but it does exist.

We don't really know when it was authored, do we? All we know is that Mannimarco gave a statement for it at some point after the event. It's even possible it wasn't part of that book in the first few editions but got added much later, so even if we got a date for the first publishing, we could not safely conclude that everything in the currently circulating editions is originally from that time.

And then there's a different possibility of course, which might also be interesting to think about: Is the Mannimarco we know the actual Mannimarco from back then (if one necromancer of that name existed during the Dragon Break)? He could have just adopted that name and identity of a famous necromancer long gone because his actual heritage might have been much less remarkable?

I do like the thought of Mannimarco co-opting another Mannimarco's history for his own uses. He wanted to bolster his Aldmer claim, so he researched for any mention of any Mannimarco anywhere in history and made it his own.

Honestly, the more I think about his supposed claim to be Aldmer, the more I wonder at it. Does he just expect everyone to go along with it because he says it with conviction? Does he have genealogy charts to bolster it? Has anyone ever heard him make the claim and responded with, "Prove it?"

I also wonder about him even being in the Psijic Order; as in: why did he stay when he knew their tenets didn't suit him? Why did he skulk about and practice necromancy on the down-low? Considering that his "banishment" to Tamriel really only freed him from all the restrictions the Order placed on him, seems like he would have taken himself off earlier.

I'm sure there's some details I'm missing about why he was there and all that; and I'm sure you probably know what they are. So...enlighten me, please, as to why Mannimarco stayed in the Order as long as he did.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It is disappointing, but it does seem, based on the quote from the article, that they weren't really intending to go more into the lore. That is, the Worm Cult was chosen because "everyone already knew" they were bad, and it hearkened back to the game's beginning. A bit of nostalgia. I don't think it's the greatest basis for creating a story, but the game's tenth anniversary and etc.

Nostalgia is based on emotions. Let's say the new story didn't evoke much, for me at least.

It didn't for me, either. Well, that's not entirely true. I disliked that a cult I had dismantled and a villain I had taken out were just back...somehow...because reasons...and just as powerful, or even more so, than before. So, dislike is an emotion. But, I'm aware that people did enjoy it, so it might just be a case of: people like what they like, and this story just wasn't for me.

Syldras wrote: »

We can discuss that more detailedly when Part 2 is officially released - which seems to be later than I expected. I watched the stream yesterday (which was, again, just announced one day earlier, and the annoucement even didn't include a time - I needed to search on Twitter for that info) and sadly I have to say that I felt disappointed to read on one of those powerpoint pictures that Phase 3 of the Wall event will/can not begin before the official release date of Q4 content, which is October 27 on PC (and November 12 on console, I think). So the whole event will probably have at least a month of duration, which is nice for people who don't have much time to play ESO - so they will not miss the event entirely, probably - , which I think is a good thing; but on the other hand, such a long event somehow takes away the feeling of urgency and the competition they wanted to make between different servers. I somehow don't feel motivation to actually "invest" much into that situation if I know we can't break the Wall before the end of October anyway (or is it even mid-November for everyone since that's the latest release date and everyone's meant to have the same chance?).

Hmm, I thought the announcement did have a time stated. I remember thinking I wouldn't be able to watch it live (and I didn't; caught the VOD later). Anyway, it was short notice; I wonder why they've been doing that lately.

As to the stream itself, I was surprised to learn that Phase 3 won't begin before a certain date, no matter how well the server pulls together. Seeing as how the build up was all about servers opening it in their own time and seeing who gets there first...well, just seems odd, is all. And the date of when that phase is available differs depending on whether one is on pc or console, since console patches are always two weeks later, which is not a thing I've ever understood. If consoles have to approve a patch before it can go live, why not just wait until that date to release it for pc as well? Oh, there's probably some perfectly rational explanation, sure, but staggered release dates bug me.

As to the length of the event, I don't mind it being longer, because that gives more people opportunity to participate if they want to. Not being a competitive person, the "server race" aspect didn't do much for me anyway; mostly, I just like the idea of an event that progresses and you see actual changes in the game world.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It does seem like a lot, because that's who we're interacting with and learning about. Kind of like how history is taught in general--the focus is on the people who did the different thing, broke with norms, and were somehow notable. Yet compared to how many people there actually are (or were, at the time), the explorers, scholars and cult leaders are still outliers. There have been plenty of serial killers throughout time, and we know about many of them, but that doesn't make them the norm. Same with explorers and even scholars.

The main problem is that people tend to write about the unusual. Even in everyday life, they'll rather tell you about something unusual that happend to them, or something special they did that day, instead of telling you how they brushed their teeth or watered their plants. Many people take the ordinary aspects of their lives for granted and don't think it's interesting to keep any written accounts on that. People in the past weren't much different. Events were normally written about because they were unordinary; one exception are bureaucratic text sources, because those would also record ordinary things - births, deaths, sales, etc, another one are texts that deliberately try to document momentary common life for future generations. There are some sources like that, basically like those time capsules people sometimes still make today, but it's rather rare. And a few centuries back, there's another problem: Almost no one was able to write. So big parts of the population just weren't able to leave written records about their lives, their ideas and beliefs. So what we have there are just oral accounts or, but that's also a bit rarer, accounts written by scholars who chose to record the life of the ordinary people because they found it an interesting topic to study or to preserve info about for future researchers.

Even if people did keep diaries about their everyday lives and the mundanity of it all, unless they were someone notable or at least marginally famous for their time, no one thought to preserve their writing, if their writing was even known about at all. Samuel Pepys' diary is one of the famous ones, and he did write about everyday things as well as momentous events. Basically, he wrote about everything in his life, no matter how small. Yet if he hadn't risen in the ranks of politics and become notable, we probably never would have heard of his diary.

It's just interesting to me how history is passed down and recorded (or not, as the case may be) and then how we teach it going forward.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I always looked at the Artaeum flashbacks as Vanus Galerion and Mannimarco lore as it intersected with Psijic lore. I think the Psijics did seal it off and act like it had never happened, because the only reason we found out about it was the npc had stolen an artifact so she could explore it and find out the truth. I really don't think the intent was to give Worm Cult lore.

I don't think it was meant as Worm Cult lore, either, but it did show us Mannimarco background lore. I thought it was a step into the right direction - to show the past of some characters who are very important for TES lore as a whole. Background stories are always interesting - in Morrowind and CWC we also got background stories to some Telvanni Masters and to Sil, for example. In the base game we had Shalidor's background, among others. I wish they had continued like that in later stories...

There's also a Summerset daily quest about the Traitor's Vault, by the way. So it doesn't seem to be that closed off, or at least not securely

Well, after that student busted it open, what else could they do but make it into useful "work for outsiders"?

I agree that the background stories of major lore characters are interesting, even if I don't like that character (thinking of Shalidor). I would really like to see more of that.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

For Worm Cult lore, we have that pamphlet that circulates on Solstice, which actually did more to interest me in the average cultist than anything else I'd seen. It at least gave ideas for some of their motivations--they might be in it for world domination, or maybe they just want to practice necromancy in peace, or perhaps they really want the warm bed and regular meals.

I think that pamphlet might have been meant as being funny, but indeed, it was more interesting than the typical "evil people being evil" cliché.

Oh, I'm positive it was meant as a sort of slapstick send-up of the cult, but still....

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, that's cool! I don't much care for the New Life repeatable quests. As far as lore goes, they're interesting enough--the different ways the different cultures celebrate--but I don't care to actually participate in them. Usually I just do the Old Life quest to see which ghost of my character's past is going to haunt him. That quest can actually be quite moving, depending on who shows up.

They were still fun (and of course interesting in terms of lore) during the first two or three years. After that, I mostly focused on the new ones - and once those weren't new anymore either, I just did what ever could be finished the fastest, to get the event tickets. Which is a bit sad, because that didn't feel festive at all anymore, of course. I hope the new quests will bring back a bit of the old spirit.

Generally, I do like the Old Life quest - it was certainly different for once, and a bit more emotional (at least for the first few years; too many repetitions also decrease the effect). I hope they'll update it at some point to reflect the events of later chapters.

Yeah, the first years of the New Life Festival were very, well, festive feeling. But you can only do the signal sprint so many times before you get to thinking, "Why is it so important to reenact this anyway?" I didn't realize they didn't update the Old Life quest as the years went by; I thought I just had bad rng to be getting some of the same ones all the time.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I understand they want people to test the fortress and all, but it does seem like it would be better to have all the content easily accessible so people could test it over and over, particularly if something gets changed or fixed.

Luckily for me, they did remove it now - I mean the need to complete it first to get into East Solstice content. It can still be played and tested, but it's not neccessary to progress on PTS anymore. I want to be honest: If it had still been, I'm not sure whether I had tested all quest content another time now. I was truly relieved yesterday when I saw I don't need to do it a second time - I really didn't feel in the mood to.

Then again, in the stream yesterday it sounded like this dungeon will indeed only be available for 1 week after the Wall fell, which I think is a bit of a pity. It's a well-designed dungeon (even if clearly designed for big groups), and it's a bit sad to think all that work will just be gone (and I'm sure lots of work went into it) and players who join ESO later will never see it. I actually thought they'd just scale it down for people who play the story later, so you could still do it in small groups or alone, but that doesn't seem to be their plan.

I generally don't like limited time content, and I truly hope that this "transition year" won't transition into giving us only limited-time content in the future. Basically what's usually understood as a "content pass" in most games. I don't think reducing replayability even more will help this game.

I don't mind time-limited content when it serves a valid purpose for the story and the world, and is used sparingly. I was surprised to learn the fortress was temporary, but since from a narrative view it makes sense, I think it could work. I do wonder what the bridge quest will be for people who come to this content later. Anyway, the temporary status and the timing of when it's available do explain why it's tuned the way it is--it's clearly expected that a mass of people will be in there progressing through the quest. Then, once that initial mass breaches the wall, seems like no one else has to run the fortress. At least, that's what I got from the stream. Since I rarely have time to play right when the servers come up on patch day, it's possible I miss the initial rush through the fortress. Well, we'll see!

I'm getting a little fatigued, by the way, with this "transition" year. I'd like a little more clarity about future content and what to expect. When they announced seasons and the fact that they would be variable in length, I wasn't exactly thrilled, but I knew I'd need to see how it worked before passing judgment. If it does turn into a lot of limited-time content, I would not be happy with that. I'm still giving them the benefit of the doubt and believing their lines about flexibility of content and so forth, but since they really haven't expanded any more on what seasons might look like, I really can't say whether or not I'll be sticking around for them.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I've heard she doesn't like fishing; I've never fished while I've had her active. The character I have who runs with Ember doesn't do much standing around, either.

I generally don't fish much in this game. It's not that interesting as an activity. I only do it if there's some golden pursuit or daily endeavour about it. I don't even care for the achievement (although it would earn me a nice boat furnishing) since I have no interest in going to Cyrodiil.

I fish now and then. It can be a soothing thing to do when I just want to hang in Tamriel and not think about too much or do anything really. I do have the achievement, but keep forgetting about the boat. It's those furnishing achievement vendors: they don't remain fixed in my mind as someone I should make a point to see.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol! Is it possible to make the Worm Cult even more bumbling?

I'd actually like to see a real idiot cult of idiot cultists. That might even actually be a bit scary

They trip backwards into success?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And, yes, it would have been a good opportunity to send Rigurt to his doom, but since the Skald King apparently gave him a different "secret mission," he'll probably scrape through it all right. I wonder if that mission was in any way related to mead.

Saw his sister again in Part 2, by the way (during the usual end talk), but still no trace of Rigurt.

We'll put his name on the lists of those "lost" in the second war of the Worm Cult, and then he'll show up in "Season of the Cultural Exchange" with some story to tell about how he's now the Ambassador of Coldharbour.

As an aside: I took another character through the prologue. This character has done very little in game story-wise. She's done the starter islands for each alliance, and every prologue quest, but no zones, no chapters, not the main quest, none of the guild quests. (She's an inveterate wanderer, so it made sense for her to do prologue quests with no follow-through, so she could always be traveling to new places). Anyway, when you take a character who has no background with the main quest or the worm cult and send them through the prologue that is a sequel to a story they've never participated in, the dialogue options actually make sense. All the questions to ask about, "Who's Merric?" "What's a planemeld?" "Worm what?"...well, those seem like a natural thing to say, and I really enjoyed the quest much more when I could approach it from the "I don't know anything about all this stuff," angle. And even though I, the player, obviously know all about it, my character having no background in any of it made a big difference for me. Sounds silly, I know, but I really was surprised to enjoy the prologue that much.

Also, got to hear the Great Mage tell my character that he obviously needs no introduction. The conceit of that guy! Oh, but I laughed. It's just so very Vanny of him. The funny thing is that she had met him before, during the Summerset prologue, but clearly he doesn't remember her, because he greeted her like they'd never once crossed paths. And of course that made me think that whatever interactions your character has during prologues don't get taken into consideration for whatever mechanic they use to have an npc "remember" your character.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I do like the thought of Mannimarco co-opting another Mannimarco's history for his own uses. He wanted to bolster his Aldmer claim, so he researched for any mention of any Mannimarco anywhere in history and made it his own.

I think it would be interesting and tell us more about his character. Unforunately, I don't think that's the depth of characterization we'll ever see.

Sadly, no. I think that's one of the drawbacks of the MMO world, really. The depth of the world gets put on the back burner because everything has to be essentially the same for everyone.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Honestly, the more I think about his supposed claim to be Aldmer, the more I wonder at it. Does he just expect everyone to go along with it because he says it with conviction? Does he have genealogy charts to bolster it? Has anyone ever heard him make the claim and responded with, "Prove it?"

Another question is whether it's even commonly believed. Maybe most people don't really care or just ignore it, or fully expect it to be made up. Apart from his idiot cultists, probably, who are likely easy to deceive anyway.

And then there are people who know him from his earlier life, who just know it's not true. One of them is Vanny. Who even wrote in one of his books that they were fellow novices. So already from that, people could draw conclusions. I'm just not sure how well-known his books are. Would the average person (who isn't a mage) be interested in his biography?

As to whether a non-mage person would be interested in Mannimarco's biography, I think there's a higher likelihood of it simply because he's had an impact on everyone's life. If he hadn't tried to wreck the world and if he hadn't sent his cultists into every hamlet and village, the average Tamriel person might not be that interested, but considering those circumstances, I do think the interest in him might be higher, even if it is down to morbid curiosity.

Of course, that doesn't account for how readily available any book might be. If the only way to read a copy was to hike on down to the local chapter of the Mages Guild and hope they let you peruse their book stacks, well, the incentive might dwindle. How easily available are books in the second era? I mean, I know they're everywhere, lying around, but if, say, a town's blacksmith was an avid reader of biographies, how easy would it be for her to get her hands on a specific book?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I also wonder about him even being in the Psijic Order; as in: why did he stay when he knew their tenets didn't suit him? Why did he skulk about and practice necromancy on the down-low? Considering that his "banishment" to Tamriel really only freed him from all the restrictions the Order placed on him, seems like he would have taken himself off earlier.

He was a young man, so I guess his parents were the ones making the decision to send him there - and probably not amused at all about him being expelled or just leaving. Artaeum might also have been a great source for forbidden books for him, one that he didn't want to lose access to as long as he wasn't too advanced in necromancy yet (I think when he arrived on Artaeum, he probably had no clue about necromancy - interest probably, but no skills - , or maybe just done a few smaller experiments).

I really don't think it's probable that he was already some megalomaniac wannabe cult leader with a god complex back then. Ambitious? Certainly. Relentless in pursuing his plans? Yup. Morally lacking? Clearly. But I don't think he neccessarily dreamt about leading a cult or even becoming a god back then. Being powerful, wielding magic most people cannot - yes. But much beyond that? Maybe the god nonsense even just started after leaving Artaeum, out of the wish to somehow take revenge on those who wronged him, from his point of view.

Actually that now makes me think about this thing again:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Join_the_Order_of_the_Black_Worm!
What if, despite all humour, there's a bit of truth in it, and Mannimarco drew conclusions from what he would have needed after being thrown out from Artaeum when writing this? A bed, a warm meal, a place where he could just continue his studies? I mean, honestly, how many necromancers might find themselves in that situation after their community finds out about them practicing necromancy?

That's an interesting take on the pamphlet, for sure. I think I'll make that canon in my world, because I like it.

I never really think of Mannimarco being subject to the dictates of parents. I'm not saying he never was, just that all the times I've seen/interacted with him in game, he's been very much his own Altmer, firm in his decisions and beliefs. I can't remember if I asked this before or not, but in those Artaeum flashbacks, are they meant to be novices? Or had they already been there awhile and maybe moved up a rank or two? It's really hard to tell what age they're meant to be just from the models (other than "younger than now," that is).

I also don't think his cult and god plans were in place back then, but I do think he had already arrived at his amoral stance concerning magic and power.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It didn't for me, either. Well, that's not entirely true. I disliked that a cult I had dismantled and a villain I had taken out were just back...somehow...because reasons...and just as powerful, or even more so, than before. So, dislike is an emotion. But, I'm aware that people did enjoy it, so it might just be a case of: people like what they like, and this story just wasn't for me.

I mean, we did know that Mannimarco would return at some point. In TES2 he's back again, has his little cult, etc. So I'm not generally against the idea of having him return already in ESO. What I would have wished for would be plausible answers on the questions that leads to, good lore explanations, no plotholes, a reasonable depiction basically, that makes sense for the world and the situation. And what I personally also care for is that a story somehow contributes to the overall lore of the world. I disliked High Isle, but it gave us a bit of Breton and druid lore, at least. Okay, Solstice gave us a bit on Clan Corelanya, and on the weird religious habits of that remote island never heard of before, but there's nothing new on the Worm Cult, really. It's just Mannimarco, Molag Bal, soul collecting, Planemeld again.

Yes, I knew Mannimarco would eventually return to Tamriel. At the end of the base game main quest, if you free him from that slab, one or other of the group (probably Lyris) says something about that not being wise, or hoping that decision doesn't come back to haunt you, and from that I assumed there would be some kind of follow-up. But then we went for years and years (while somehow always still being in the same year) and nothing, so I figured it was lore we weren't going to get. Now we are getting it, and I don't care for the execution of it. There's no build up to the return, no lead-in. It's just: "Hey, the cult's back! They've been building power in secret and now look at what they're doing!" They did all this and no one noticed. No one had any inkling. Even if I buy that they were building their power over there on Solstice, which no one knew about and etc., the people on Solstice were taken just as much by surprise as everyone else. Plus, it sounds like the cult hasn't even been on the island all that long.

Also, I think I would have liked the story better, and it would have made more sense to me, plot-wise, if the Worm Cult was not in league with Molag Bal. If they're in league with him, why do they have to do that ritual to get Mannimarco back? If Molag Bal is working with them on the condition that they don't get Mannimarco back, where does that leave them when they go against his will and take Mannimarco anyway? Eh, whatever. I'll stop grumbling about it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As to the stream itself, I was surprised to learn that Phase 3 won't begin before a certain date, no matter how well the server pulls together. Seeing as how the build up was all about servers opening it in their own time and seeing who gets there first...well, just seems odd, is all. And the date of when that phase is available differs depending on whether one is on pc or console, since console patches are always two weeks later, which is not a thing I've ever understood. If consoles have to approve a patch before it can go live, why not just wait until that date to release it for pc as well? Oh, there's probably some perfectly rational explanation, sure, but staggered release dates bug me.

I'm honestly not even sure anymore whether I understand correctly how that "competition" aspect is supposed to work, now that we know there's a set time for the start of phase 3. That info made everything more confusing to me, not less.

Then again I wonder whether it might not have been overemphasized anyway - along with that "be part of history", "changing the world of ESO forever", etc, stuff. If we look at it more objectively, the Wall event isn't anything entirely new, it's just a set of different activities we know since the base game: a few daily and unique quests (crafting quests, "gather x items of type y" quests, and a few story quests at the end), a few temporary dolmens (at those Stirk camps in front of the Wall passes), a temporary world boss I think (that will appear somewhere on the West, at a set location), and an open dungeon (the Writhing Fortress). Okay, the Fortress is a little different in design this time, but that would be "a slightly different new dungeon type" for me, and still no "world-changing event making history". The only thing that stands out about the event is that it's a big number of different activities this time, and not just a few new daily quests. Oh, and that the Fortress will be removed again after the event, but limited-time content in a game is no selling point for me, but something that I view rather negatively. I rather see work and efforts (and I see that a lot of care went into the Fortress) going into game content that stays and contributes to the game as a whole permanently.

From what I understand, the 'world-changing' is that the way the Fellowship camps look change as we move through the phases--becoming more built up and formidable--and then of course we bring down the wall. Or breach it. The 'history-making' part refers mostly to the event itself--ESO has never done an event quite like this before.

I've participated in a similar style event in the past in a different MMO, so the idea that event-related content is going away afterwards doesn't seem that negative to me. If the wall is meant to be breached during this event, and the breaching of the wall is basically the whole point of the event; well, once it's done, there's no real reason for the mechanics of breaching the wall to stay in the game.

What I find a little odd is that the event comes in the middle of a story that will remain in game forever. The previous event I mentioned in another MMO was the prelude to content opening. A huge effort to open some gates to a raid, so once the gates were open, all the associated quests and such that went with the opening of it could go away and it wouldn't matter. People playing through the Solstice story years from now will go through the first half, with all the talk of the wall and etc., and then basically just be able to walk through it at the correct point in the story. Well, I'll see how it all plays out. I'll take a character through the quest at some point well after the wall is dealt with and experience first-hand how well it works on a narrative level.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Even if people did keep diaries about their everyday lives and the mundanity of it all, unless they were someone notable or at least marginally famous for their time, no one thought to preserve their writing, if their writing was even known about at all. Samuel Pepys' diary is one of the famous ones, and he did write about everyday things as well as momentous events. Basically, he wrote about everything in his life, no matter how small. Yet if he hadn't risen in the ranks of politics and become notable, we probably never would have heard of his diary.
It's just interesting to me how history is passed down and recorded (or not, as the case may be) and then how we teach it going forward.

The more time passes, the more sources get lost, that's sadly how it is. And of course there's a certain bias because people decide what they find worth preserving and what not.

Though I have to say, that at least where I live, there's no big focus on certain individuals in history teaching anymore. That's not the usual thing here for decades already. Of course certain nobles, philosophers or scholars get mentioned, but we don't really focus on their lives, but on the things they did and how that influenced the world. It's basically about courses of events - King A issued this decree, which led to group B to do this and that, which led to migration of group C to whatevercounty, which caused the ruler of that place to react in whatever way, which led to the neighbouring ruler to do whatever as a reaction,... It's about how regions or cultures developed and changed over the centuries.

And then there's also courses, even more so at university, that do focus on certain aspects of life. Technological changes, specific habits that might have changed over the centuries, etc. Things as mundane as people's diets or progress in weaving techniques. Another thing I remember, already from elementary school, and which was actually quite fun, was to focus on a specific environment and examine how people lived there. Like: How did life in a castle look like? What kinds of people were present, what different tasks did they have, what did they do all day, how did they sustain themselves,... Same can be done about other places like a cloister, or the differences between a town and a city, or how city life would change between different eras, for example.

I think it's mostly similar over here at the elementary level. Obviously we wouldn't have any history on castle life, but we'd learn how the pilgrims/colonists managed and so forth, and how the native tribes lived. But the bigger events in history, like the Revolution, do tend to focus on the big names and big moments (with corresponding dates) rather than the ordinary lives of the people. However, when I was in middle school and high school (the eighties), the history we were taught was very much a broad outline with a major focus on important individuals and dates. Lots of war coverage, too. I would like to think that approach to teaching history has improved over the years, but the way I was taught it back then led to me not developing much of an interest in it until I took some history courses in college. (My teaching experience was at the elementary level, so I haven't been in a higher grade level history class since I was a student).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't mind time-limited content when it serves a valid purpose for the story and the world, and is used sparingly. I was surprised to learn the fortress was temporary, but since from a narrative view it makes sense, I think it could work. I do wonder what the bridge quest will be for people who come to this content later.

They could have left this as the bridge quest. Now that we know they do not, I'm wondering whether it's the other short story quest part that there is at the end of Phase 3. The situation where we see Mannimarco - unmasked and laughing! - doing whatever sinister ritual. That quest part isn't bad either, but it's much less complex and spectacular than the Fortress. If it was up to me, I'd kept both.

I wonder if part of the reason they didn't want to leave the fortress in and make it scale to the number of people present is that then it wouldn't seem much like an epic battle. If they want to evoke the feeling of "we need a huge army and the cooperation of the alliances to even have a chance to get through this thing," that risks getting lost when it's just you and Azander strolling through a dread Daedric fortress. But that's just my guess. Obviously I don't know their reasoning.

Also, I'm going to pretend I didn't read that bit about jolly Mannimarco, because I'm pretty sure that's a spoiler. *gasp*

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm getting a little fatigued, by the way, with this "transition" year. I'd like a little more clarity about future content and what to expect. When they announced seasons and the fact that they would be variable in length, I wasn't exactly thrilled, but I knew I'd need to see how it worked before passing judgment. If it does turn into a lot of limited-time content, I would not be happy with that. I'm still giving them the benefit of the doubt and believing their lines about flexibility of content and so forth, but since they really haven't expanded any more on what seasons might look like, I really can't say whether or not I'll be sticking around for them.

I really hope we'll get info on time about for how next year is supposed to look like. I was fine with the January announcement when we knew what about to expect, but without having any hint on what awaits us, I'd actually prefer an even earlier announcement. Getting nothing at all until spring, like it had been this year, wasn't very well-received by most people, I think.

As for whether I'd stay around if they only release limited-time content in the future - I'm quite sure I'd still replay old quests on alt characters, but I'm certainly not willing to pay full story chapter price for new one-time content that I can't replay on other characters in the future. Although the saddest thing to me would probably be the "lost" lore - not being able to repeatedly experience stories, and especially them being entirely unexperienceable for people who join ESO later. It's sad enough that TES Legends was closed down and people can't ever play those storylines anymore, and that was just a card game with a few stories. Now imagine some ESO chapter would only be available for a limited time, imagine Wrothgar or Vvardenfell would have been removed from the game again after a year. What a loss that would be. I'm also not sure how that improves anything, since the work is done, so why not leave it up for people permanently? I don't think fear of missing out would lead to more sales in that case. Let alone that a temporary increase of sales might not be what contributes to this game best long-term.[/quote]

I also hope the time-limited content doesn't become a big thing with this game. I don't think rpgs benefit from that style of game development, be they MMO or otherwise. The main thing for me right now is I used to be fairly confident I'd be interested in the next upcoming chapter, to some degree or another. Now, not knowing at all what that content might be, I can't say. I'm here for the stories, not the flashy cosmetics or the big battles. It's likely I'm in the minority, however.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I fish now and then. It can be a soothing thing to do when I just want to hang in Tamriel and not think about too much or do anything really.

I have a house in Bal Foyen where I just sit around and watch the ash fall sometimes. Actually it was a small Argonian mud house with a garden; I made the Argonian structure something like an entrance area and build the actual house in the yard area. Well, actually it's more like a ruin, but it's strangely cozy.

That sounds neat!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

They trip backwards into success?

Most of all they'd be unpredictable, which would make it harder to cross whatever plans they might have.

That would be an interesting approach to a story. We think the antagonist is going to do one thing and prepare for that, but they do something else, catching us off-guard, and we just can't get a bead on their plans. How would it eventually resolve? I wouldn't be opposed to a story where we ended up not the victor, though that does present certain issues for the world going forward.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

We'll put his name on the lists of those "lost" in the second war of the Worm Cult, and then he'll show up in "Season of the Cultural Exchange" with some story to tell about how he's now the Ambassador of Coldharbour.

Still related to the Worm Cult or not?

An offshoot called the Grub Cult--then it can have double meaning: grub as in insect larva and grub as in food.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As an aside: I took another character through the prologue. This character has done very little in game story-wise. She's done the starter islands for each alliance, and every prologue quest, but no zones, no chapters, not the main quest, none of the guild quests. (She's an inveterate wanderer, so it made sense for her to do prologue quests with no follow-through, so she could always be traveling to new places). Anyway, when you take a character who has no background with the main quest or the worm cult and send them through the prologue that is a sequel to a story they've never participated in, the dialogue options actually make sense. All the questions to ask about, "Who's Merric?" "What's a planemeld?" "Worm what?"...well, those seem like a natural thing to say, and I really enjoyed the quest much more when I could approach it from the "I don't know anything about all this stuff," angle. And even though I, the player, obviously know all about it, my character having no background in any of it made a big difference for me. Sounds silly, I know, but I really was surprised to enjoy the prologue that much.

Now, if they'd also consider characters who have already travelled Tamriel for a whole while...

Oh, I agree on that, most definitely. I really just meant to get across my surprise at how I was able to enjoy the story from that perspective.

I completed Solstice on my sorceress (my tall Altmer sorceress who towers over every npc in the group--that fact provided me with endless amusement; but then, I am easily amused). She's been around; she knows things; she doesn't appreciate the dialogue choice to ask: Why is Vanus Galerion important? (Thankfully, it's optional, and she did not utter those words). But my main point here is this: every time I go through the final quest of part one (in the Colored Rooms), the whole Gift of Death maguffin makes less sense. The cult wanted to use it to bring back Mannimarco, but then they also had a soul-retrieving ritual set up/planned, but when Gabrielle uses it it just poofs Darien into existence and her out. They also say that the only way to keep it out of Wormblood's hands is to use it ourselves, which I guess makes sense if they think we can't keep it safe and protected, but then again at that point suddenly it becomes a one-time-use only item, and then Wormblood seems to know we're using it and that it's been changed, because he screeches out, "What have those fools done to the Gift of Death?"

I know, I know, I know: we've been over this already. I need to let it go. Gift of Death/Light of Meridia. Whatever.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, got to hear the Great Mage tell my character that he obviously needs no introduction. The conceit of that guy! Oh, but I laughed. It's just so very Vanny of him. The funny thing is that she had met him before, during the Summerset prologue, but clearly he doesn't remember her, because he greeted her like they'd never once crossed paths. And of course that made me think that whatever interactions your character has during prologues don't get taken into consideration for whatever mechanic they use to have an npc "remember" your character.

They might have just forgotten about that part. An oversight, basically. Or do we have the same situation with other prologues, too?

Oh, I don't know. I didn't do an exhaustive study. Actually, I didn't do any study at all; I just observed this singular incident on this one particular character. Too many variables for me to set up a proper experiment. All of which is to say: pretty sure it's just an oversight anyway. Or maybe it's just prologues that don't take into account other prologues because it's possible to do them independent of anything else.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Sadly, no. I think that's one of the drawbacks of the MMO world, really. The depth of the world gets put on the back burner because everything has to be essentially the same for everyone.

That doesn't mean they couldn't go deeper when it comes to background lore, though. ESO is a story- and questing-heavy game, has a lot of content for solo players, and I think a big part of the playerbase came from the singleplayer TES games, so there are also certain expectations. And deeper background lore also wouldn't mean that every player was forced to learn about all details; it would still be entirely optional how much one wants to engage with it or not. Stories could still be written in a way that they're easily understandable without knowing all the available lore. We already have a few lorebook series in game that are a bit longer in scope (like the books about Barenziah, The Truth in Sequence, Vivecs Lessons, or The Last Year of the First Era), while not being neccessary at all for understanding the game.

I'm not saying they couldn't, or shouldn't, or won't ever go deeper with background lore. I'm just observing that, in my experience, MMOs tend to not do so.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As to whether a non-mage person would be interested in Mannimarco's biography, I think there's a higher likelihood of it simply because he's had an impact on everyone's life. If he hadn't tried to wreck the world and if he hadn't sent his cultists into every hamlet and village, the average Tamriel person might not be that interested, but considering those circumstances, I do think the interest in him might be higher, even if it is down to morbid curiosity.

Actually was I was talking about Vanny's biography

But a biography about Mannimarco? That's interesting to discuss, too. I'm personally not sure how much the average Tamrielian would want to read it. Would I find it interesting? Certainly. Would my main character? Of course. But many people seem to be rather averse when it comes to writings from or about individuals they don't sympathize with. I personally see every piece of writing as a potential object of study - it doesn't matter to me whether I agree with an individual or depicted opinion or not. But I believe most people don't think like that.

I was thinking the average Tamrielian might be more likely to read it due to a morbid curiosity than as a neutral observer looking to learn; or even setting aside any type of curiosity, because they or a family member were directly affected by Mannimarco's exploits. People do read about people and subjects all the time they don't have a personal connection to, I know, but since Mannimarco was such a monumental figure in year 582, and his cult probably adversely affected plenty of people's lives, I would think that might make people want to find out the why of it--if such an answer could even be had--by reading his biography. Then there might be the interest from pure scholar types, as well as those from admirers.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Of course, that doesn't account for how readily available any book might be. If the only way to read a copy was to hike on down to the local chapter of the Mages Guild and hope they let you peruse their book stacks, well, the incentive might dwindle. How easily available are books in the second era? I mean, I know they're everywhere, lying around, but if, say, a town's blacksmith was an avid reader of biographies, how easy would it be for her to get her hands on a specific book?

Realistically? It would probably be difficult. Not even talking about how it was in reality in a medieval society where books were an absolute rarity and even a normal library might sometimes only have had maybe 30 books. But if we look at the world depicted in ESO: Where do all these books even come from? It's not like you ever see someone printing them or copying them by hand (whatever the common technique might be in Tamriel currently). I know we've gotten a few housing items related to bookbinding, but they're all Apocrypha style.

But this aside, I actually think books are supposed to be commonly available in Tamriel. At least we see masses of them everywhere, even smaller private homes often have bookshelves, and I think I even spotted a public bookshelf in the landscape somewhere - on High Isle, maybe? It was somewhere in nature, next to a bench (and maybe a pond). In the real world, this would have been unthinkable even just 100 years ago, let alone in medieval times where books were even more rare and expensive. So, going by that, they can't be too much of a luxury in Tamriel.

I have wondered before what the state of printing is in Tamriel. There are multiple copies of many common books/plays, far more than I would think would exist if everything was still being manually copied. Then again, there is magic in the world, so maybe making copies of books is just a simple spell.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That's an interesting take on the pamphlet, for sure. I think I'll make that canon in my world, because I like it.

What if his first idea for his group wasn't even that "evil" at the beginning, and he really might have wished for a community of likeminded people whom he could study with in peace? Maybe as the head librarian leader of their group, or even the leader of a cultural rebellion at some point later, but far from the clichéd "insane cultist godhood complex world domination etc" stuff?

Then I'd be interested to know when he changed and what prompted the change. It honestly doesn't seem to fit with his persona as presented in ESO that he would create a group to do anything "in peace," but I'm willing to entertain the thought that he didn't always have insane plans of dominion and godhood going.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I never really think of Mannimarco being subject to the dictates of parents. I'm not saying he never was, just that all the times I've seen/interacted with him in game, he's been very much his own Altmer, firm in his decisions and beliefs. I can't remember if I asked this before or not, but in those Artaeum flashbacks, are they meant to be novices? Or had they already been there awhile and maybe moved up a rank or two? It's really hard to tell what age they're meant to be just from the models (other than "younger than now," that is).

We have two statements on their age: One source says they met as novices - which of course tells us nothing about how long they studied together and how old they were when Mannimarco was cast out. Another source makes the statement they were in their youth when Mannimarco was expelled - so, even if we have no exact age, for me that sounds like not even adults or maybe barely adults at that time.

But even if we assume Mannimarco might have been in his mid-20s back then - even if you have a certain autarky in that age, it's probably still not easy to tell your family that you've messed up - especially that badly. Since how might he have become a novice of the Psijics in first place? Of course we know nothing about his background, but I do believe he probably still had a family at that age (Vanny was certainly an exception when it comes to his background and how he got to Artaeum), and a family most probably means there were people who had certain expectations, who might then have been very disappointed that those expectations weren't met (or not even just disappointed, if we consider Altmer society). Especially so if getting into the order might have been costly in terms of time, efforts and money (not meaning you'd need to pay to enter - but it's very possible his earlier education up to that point had already been expensive). Add to that the stigma of being cast out not for whatever shennanigans but for necromancy... He was basically socially dead. Not saying he can't have been determined in going his own way anyway - but even if not, what choice did he even have in that situation?! Of course, his family's reputation was probably ruined anyway, just by association with him.

It's certainly convenient for story-telling that he has no family that we know of (except possibly Wormblood, but that was only speculation anyway) because then he's simply a free agent, able to go where he wants and do as he pleases. How does one get into the Psijic Order? I know the Great Mage was basically abducted and enrolled without a thought of whether he would like it or not, but is there an application process? By the time we interact with the Order in ESO, it had been "gone" for awhile, hadn't it? How does one even try to join an order that isn't any particular place?

Did whatever social/cultural stigma that might have attached to Mannimarco for getting kicked out of the Psijic Order for practicing necromancy then get erased at some point? Because he was able to insinuate himself into a position of power in the emperor's court and I find it hard to believe he could have done that if his past was well-known.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

From what I understand, the 'world-changing' is that the way the Fellowship camps look change as we move through the phases--becoming more built up and formidable--and then of course we bring down the wall. Or breach it.

That's not completely new for ESO, though - considering the city of Orsinium. And it's not the first time we're removing a magical barrier either - the others were just usually a bit smaller, but does that really make any difference?

I don't think they were presenting it as new? I think they were hyping up the idea that they are making changes to the world as the event progresses, not that they'd never done it before. But that was just my impression of the announcement.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The 'history-making' part refers mostly to the event itself--ESO has never done an event quite like this before.

The first Witches Festival or New Life Celebration were also new to the game - still, they didn't announce those as something sensational. Let's just say I find the announcements for the upcoming event to sound rather dramatic - but unfortunately I don't get that spectacular, dramatic feeling when I consider what we actually get: A few quests, a few dolmens, one world boss, one dungeon.

I'm only saying what I remember the explanation being from ZOS. The festivals are annual things that return; this particular event is not going to return again next year. It's a one-time event with limited time content tied to a story--that really isn't something they've done before. Anyway, I figure a lot of it is just to hype up the new content, same as games always do.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder if part of the reason they didn't want to leave the fortress in and make it scale to the number of people present is that then it wouldn't seem much like an epic battle. If they want to evoke the feeling of "we need a huge army and the cooperation of the alliances to even have a chance to get through this thing," that risks getting lost when it's just you and Azander strolling through a dread Daedric fortress. But that's just my guess. Obviously I don't know their reasoning.

I'm curious how the experience will be. Since on PTS it was basically "6 people running around on their own inside a huge dungeon, one half of them clueless about what to do or with difficulties to orient themselves, the other half knowing what to do, but unable to progress nonetheless because they're dead most of the time, overpowered by excessively huge enemy hordes".

I'm curious what it will be like for those who aren't there at the first rush through once the fortress is available. It'll be available for a week, but what will it look like on day 2 compared to day 1? Or day 5?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, I'm going to pretend I didn't read that bit about jolly Mannimarco, because I'm pretty sure that's a spoiler. *gasp*

How's that a spoiler? Of course he's happy! He's alive again. Or undead. Or whatever he is. Also, he has Vanny as a prisoner, so how could he not be in a good mood?

Lol! You know what I meant!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I also hope the time-limited content doesn't become a big thing with this game. I don't think rpgs benefit from that style of game development, be they MMO or otherwise. The main thing for me right now is I used to be fairly confident I'd be interested in the next upcoming chapter, to some degree or another. Now, not knowing at all what that content might be, I can't say. I'm here for the stories, not the flashy cosmetics or the big battles. It's likely I'm in the minority, however.

It's hard to say, but I'd assume that people who are here for the stories and lore are not in the minority. Or at least not a rare thing. Otherwise ZOS probably wouldn't focus on releasing story content that much.

We already know next year will be about the Dark Brotherhood somehow, which does also, most probably, mean new story content.

I'm sure there are plenty of different reasons people enjoy this game, or parts of it, but I've seen enough people say they never read quests to feel that there aren't a lot invested in the story. But, you know, it's not as if most players even use the forums, so it is indeed hard to say how many people are here for the stories.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That sounds neat!

I might take a few screenshots later (or tomorrow).

If you do, I'd love to see them!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That would be an interesting approach to a story. We think the antagonist is going to do one thing and prepare for that, but they do something else, catching us off-guard, and we just can't get a bead on their plans. How would it eventually resolve? I wouldn't be opposed to a story where we ended up not the victor, though that does present certain issues for the world going forward.

If it's not a world-ending threat, who cares? If, let's say, the Worm Cult had decided to just stay in East Solstice and build a nice necromantic community there, I don't think it would have bothered me, to be honest... It might have even been the best outcome for Nirn as a whole if they just stayed there, far away from the mainland, doing their own thing.

I don't think the Worm Cult, as it's been shown to exist, can be safely left anywhere. Their approach to necromancy seems to be built upon the pain and suffering of others, so leaving them to pursue their lives of necromancy on a small island would surely have deleterious effects for everyone else on that island.

But I wasn't thinking of the Worm Cult when I was talking about a story where we fail. I wasn't even thinking of us failing in a world-ending threat situation when I mentioned issues for the world going forward. I was thinking narrative cohesion with how our characters appear in the world. Since we've never failed, really, our characters are seen as great heroes who get the job done (whether we want that role or not). If we do end up failing, how does that affect the world around us, and the people in it? Are people less likely to want our help going forward? Will we have people casting blame on us for things not having turned out well? What are the consequences for us in the various organization we're in? Demotion? Expulsion? There are just a lot of smaller details that I would think would result from a failure we had that don't really work with how the world of ESO is structured.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

An offshoot called the Grub Cult--then it can have double meaning: grub as in insect larva and grub as in food.

And for Argonians, it's even the same thing.

Lol!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But my main point here is this: every time I go through the final quest of part one (in the Colored Rooms), the whole Gift of Death maguffin makes less sense. The cult wanted to use it to bring back Mannimarco, but then they also had a soul-retrieving ritual set up/planned, but when Gabrielle uses it it just poofs Darien into existence and her out. They also say that the only way to keep it out of Wormblood's hands is to use it ourselves, which I guess makes sense if they think we can't keep it safe and protected, but then again at that point suddenly it becomes a one-time-use only item, and then Wormblood seems to know we're using it and that it's been changed, because he screeches out, "What have those fools done to the Gift of Death?"

Yes. It all makes no sense. Sadly.

True enough.

You know, before you go into the Colored Rooms, when you're still in the courtyard of the ruined temple, you have to choose a buddy to go in with: Skordo, Walks, or Raz. Azah says he'll stay by Gabrielle's side and protect her. So...he kind of failed at that, didn't he? Where even was he when fake Vanny was calling out for help? I'm, uh, beginning to think he's really not qualified to lead the Stirk Fellowship.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm not saying they couldn't, or shouldn't, or won't ever go deeper with background lore. I'm just observing that, in my experience, MMOs tend to not do so.

Then we're lucky since the devs stated some years ago that ESO is "not a MMO"

Ha, true! But then why do they keep putting all this group content in? On a more serious note, though, the world does behave like an MMO world in its details. I'd really like for them to provide a more immersive, story-oriented experience where everything doesn't have to be the same for everyone, but realistically I don't know how well that would work. I think there's supposed to be some of that approach in eastern Solstice, where things can progress differently depending on player decisions, so I'll see how that works out.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I was thinking the average Tamrielian might be more likely to read it due to a morbid curiosity than as a neutral observer looking to learn; or even setting aside any type of curiosity, because they or a family member were directly affected by Mannimarco's exploits. People do read about people and subjects all the time they don't have a personal connection to, I know, but since Mannimarco was such a monumental figure in year 582, and his cult probably adversely affected plenty of people's lives, I would think that might make people want to find out the why of it--if such an answer could even be had--by reading his biography.

But who would print and publish it? It's not like you can walk up to your local Worm Cult lair and buy a copy.

Can't anyone print and publish a book? Why should the Worm Cult be the only place that has copies? Anyone could write a biography of Mannimarco, if they wanted to. Books about unsavory people and events are published all the time in the real world, so why not Tamriel also?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I have wondered before what the state of printing is in Tamriel. There are multiple copies of many common books/plays, far more than I would think would exist if everything was still being manually copied. Then again, there is magic in the world, so maybe making copies of books is just a simple spell.

That would be an explanation. And something I'd find interesting to get a statement on in game, maybe seeing an npc doing it, or getting info about it in a lorebook. Just adding a bit more background lore about how life in Tamriel is in this era, including its available technologies. It might add nothing to any quests, but info like this does help with immersion and world/lore building.

Go into a back room in the local Mages Guild chapter and find initiates practicing book replication spells, a stern adept standing over them and making sure they get it right. Then there's a whole plot-line about a rogue book-caster, throwing off the restrictions the guild places on which books the guild has deemed acceptable to copy. The guild will probably want to hire us to track down the copies of these unsanctioned books, and we could either do that, or turn on the guild and aid in the distribution of the previously unavailable books. That's my silly fan-fiction for the morning!

Yes, a line or two in a lore book about how books are printed would be interesting. Small details about the world really are helpful for immersion.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Then I'd be interested to know when he changed and what prompted the change. It honestly doesn't seem to fit with his persona as presented in ESO that he would create a group to do anything "in peace," but I'm willing to entertain the thought that he didn't always have insane plans of dominion and godhood going.

"In peace" might sound a bit too friendly, but would he really have been interested in getting into conflicts just after leaving Artaeum? I don't think so. Considering his (assumed) age, he must have been far less powerful back then, so he surely needed an environment where he could continue his studies and experiments. Since he's supposed to be intelligent, creating such an environment and improving his skills must have been his priority at that point, before waging any avoidable wars.

It's possible he did that. Honestly, I don't know when the Worm Cult rose to the state of being commonly known about and recognized. This is why we need a thorough biography of Mannimarco.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's certainly convenient for story-telling that he has no family that we know of (except possibly Wormblood, but that was only speculation anyway) because then he's simply a free agent, able to go where he wants and do as he pleases.

It's convenient, but in the end, it's also boring since more background lore would give his character more depth.

I wasn't endorsing the convenience. Mannimarco in ESO is pretty much a one-note character. We've speculated a lot about his motivations and background, but what we actually get as defined lore in the game isn't much. I suppose that's one way to show a major character: a bare outline, and let the player fill in the blanks however they want to give the character more personal meaning to them.

Of course, it's possible we're just meant to accept him as is, no blanks filled in. He's Mannimarco, and he's a bad dude. Maybe there really isn't any more to him than what we see. Since the game does give us complex npc characters with more details about their lives, it seems very much like a choice on the creators' parts to have Mannimarco as shallow as he is. It's possible that most people don't really care that much about the inner lives of the villains, and really do just want someone bad to defeat (to bring it back to the article that started this thread).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

How does one get into the Psijic Order? I know the Great Mage was basically abducted and enrolled without a thought of whether he would like it or not, but is there an application process? By the time we interact with the Order in ESO, it had been "gone" for awhile, hadn't it? How does one even try to join an order that isn't any particular place?

They only disappeared after Vanny had left. Which is an interesting thing, in my opinion.

Also, I knew there was something about how Valsirenn joined, so I checked her UESP page and found this:
"How long have you known the Ritemaster?
We've been friends and colleagues for a very long time. Iachesis has been the Ritemaster since before I was accepted into the order. In fact, he's the primary reason I'm here. He saw potential in a young Altmer and invited her to join."

So it's probably something like Psijics looking out for gifted young students in Tamriel? Mannimarco probably already amassed 5 centuries of student debt to even get to that point

It is interesting that they took off after The Great Mage took himself off. It seems kind of petulant, somehow. Anyway, I was thinking of the newer people in the order, the ones who couldn't have been around back before the Psijics disappeared their island. The one at Traitor's Vault who gives us the quest (name escapes me), and the other one with the Augur of the Obscure quest line (Josajeh). How did they get in? Did the Psijics just send people to Tamriel from time to time to scoop up the really talented mages?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Did whatever social/cultural stigma that might have attached to Mannimarco for getting kicked out of the Psijic Order for practicing necromancy then get erased at some point? Because he was able to insinuate himself into a position of power in the emperor's court and I find it hard to believe he could have done that if his past was well-known.

That's an interesting aspect, yes. What we know is that practicing necromancy is not well-accepted in Tamriel. It wasn't back then, it isn't now. What I also believe though is that there are lots of unscrupulous people who might just look the other way if a known necromancer has some useful skills that might benefit them. So maybe after a few of those tasks, people might have rather thought of him as "the former advisor of Kinlord Teldundindo of Whateverplace" (and a few Teldundindos more), not paying much attention to his earlier life anymore. While he must still have done his Worm Cult stuff secretly on the side somehow.

Again, a thorough biography of Mannimarco would be helpful! I'd really like to know about that first position Mannimarco got, when he didn't have a reputation as a brilliant advisor. Who was the person who initially wanted his advice/services, and to what end? What did they know about him and his past before they worked with him? What did they accomplish together? I wouldn't expect it to be some grand revelation, or something incredibly significant, except in hindsight as the first step along his eventual path to where he ended up.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm curious what it will be like for those who aren't there at the first rush through once the fortress is available. It'll be available for a week, but what will it look like on day 2 compared to day 1? Or day 5?

A friend of mine is actually a little concerned about that as he doesn't have time to play every day - so what if he only gets to that content on day 4 or 5? Will there still be enough people around to reasonably play that content? I mean, yes, when I managed to finish the Fortress in about 2,5 hours or what it was, we were like 6 random people. So it's doable in a way. The question is, though, whether someone who doesn't have time to play every day, has 3 spare hours at once in one evening. And also whether that's still a fun experience then... I can say while I liked the principle and the mechanisms of that dungeon, it did feel like a hassle after being stuck at the final boss for... well, a long time.

It's generally not a nice situation not to know beforehand what date/timespan this dungeon will be available in. Imagine someone paid the full price for this year's content and then the dungeon is open exactly during 7 days where this person can't play - being on family vacation or job-related travels. I think I'd feel annoyed.

For myself, if the fortress isn't completable by the time I get to it within that week, I won't care. Exclusive titles mean nothing to me, so I'm not fussed about getting a title I'll never use. However, I do understand that plenty of people will want to complete the fortress and achieve the title, and I agree that such a limited time frame in which to do it is fairly crummy.

Other MMOs do retire the ability to get certain titles once the content where that title is achieved isn't the current hotness, but those time frames are usually more like six months to a year or so (depending on how quickly they get out the next content). Those are also MMOs with ever-increasing levels, though, and they do that so people can't go in at a much higher level and get the title easy-mode (these titles are usually related to large-group content like raids).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol! You know what I meant!

I do find it remarkable that the first time we hear him laughing is when he has Vanny. Now, considering a happy Mannimarco could be a less dangerous Mannimarco for the world as a whole (Maybe there's some mood-regulating influence over time - we can't rule that out!)... Maybe we should just leave him there?

No. I'm not leaving the Great Mage in the hands of that lunatic. At least, I hope I'm not.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If you do, I'd love to see them!

Noted. Which reminds me I have a few more screenshots I wanted to send you anyway. But later. I need to do some other things first now. Important Telvanni business, of course

Is there any Telvanni business that isn't "important"?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't think the Worm Cult, as it's been shown to exist, can be safely left anywhere. Their approach to necromancy seems to be built upon the pain and suffering of others, so leaving them to pursue their lives of necromancy on a small island would surely have deleterious effects for everyone else on that island.

After some time, they'd be the only ones left, then they don't bother anyone else anymore. And the island would have its reputation of being cursed (and better avoided by sailors) for a reason.

Even if I was willing to sacrifice an island's worth of innocents to keep the Worm Cult confined (I'm not, by the way), I don't place any dependence on the Worm Cult staying on that island. Once they didn't have anyone else to torture, kill, experiment on, and raise from the dead, they'd be looking elsewhere for subjects.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But I wasn't thinking of the Worm Cult when I was talking about a story where we fail. I wasn't even thinking of us failing in a world-ending threat situation when I mentioned issues for the world going forward. I was thinking narrative cohesion with how our characters appear in the world. Since we've never failed, really, our characters are seen as great heroes who get the job done (whether we want that role or not). If we do end up failing, how does that affect the world around us, and the people in it? Are people less likely to want our help going forward? Will we have people casting blame on us for things not having turned out well? What are the consequences for us in the various organization we're in? Demotion? Expulsion? There are just a lot of smaller details that I would think would result from a failure we had that don't really work with how the world of ESO is structured.

Well, they've failed too in that case, haven't they (if they even lifted a finger)? So it would be their fault just as well.

That's generally not how it works, though. People always want to know "the one" to blame. I think they'd be most likely to single out the player character as the reason it all went south. Everyone in Tamriel seems to know who we are and what we've done, so why would this time be any different?

Syldras wrote: »

Generally, I wouldn't mind a more complex disposition system or something like a fame/infamy system including different factions. Just like the new dialogue choices, that would make situations much more interesting (and more complicated with more things for the writers to consider, admittedly).

A disposition system could be interesting, but what I don't want (and what ESO thankfully doesn't have) is a reputation system that just turns into a grind. Most MMOs have that, and it is tedious as all get out.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You know, before you go into the Colored Rooms, when you're still in the courtyard of the ruined temple, you have to choose a buddy to go in with: Skordo, Walks, or Raz. Azah says he'll stay by Gabrielle's side and protect her. So...he kind of failed at that, didn't he? Where even was he when fake Vanny was calling out for help? I'm, uh, beginning to think he's really not qualified to lead the Stirk Fellowship.

Of course he's unqualified, he didn't even answer my ransom letter!

Well, but did you give him a return address so he could answer?