Removing Map Based Leads?

onyxorb · October 4

Devs, could you take a SERIOUS look at Map based Antiquity Leads?
ESO seems to want to cater to the housing community, but the existing of Map based leads is actually causing some people to give up on certain furnishings, and/or stop completing builds...

Maps are something that are VERY hard to farm, it takes RNG to get them, RNG to get the right zone, and then RNG to get A lead, THEN additional RNG to get the lead you actually need.
When you have nearly 20 leads tied to a particular map, the chances of getting something you need make Crown Crate drop rates look impressive.

Could we PLEASE change how map leads work, or remove them? Other leads are easily farmable, do IA, or a dungeon, or a WB, or PVP, or a trial until the lead drops.
Map leads don't work that way since we can't reliably farm maps for a particular zone in the first place.

Even when purchasing stacks of maps, the RNG is just 'not' there. Honestly, it's to the point where we just assume we won't get certain furnishings if they are locked behind map leads.

If they MUST stay tied to maps, at least make maps for a particular zone something we can reliably farm by activities in that zone?
Also please make it something we can farm without getting blocked out by other players or bots (ie trying to farm limited number of treasure chest or safeboxes).

So this was long winded, but in summary, PLEASE, come up with a better solution?

LunaFlora · October 4

yes! treasure map leads are frustrating

Lilarna · October 4

I agree. I've seen this feeling of frustration and being a victim of RNG leading multiple players in the housing community, across many of the major Discord communities, to give up on houses and even on the game itself in some instances.

Thumbless_Bot · October 4

If the odds of three things happening in series are each 1%, but only if the previous thing happened, the odds of all three happening are 1 in a million, literally.

At 10% chance for each the odds that all three will happen in series is 1 in 1,000.

I dont know what the odds of each are, but you see how thos can get out of hand really quickly when sequential rng requirements are strung together.

lillybit · October 4

When we were given the Antiquarians Gallery house I had big plans to actually use it to display one of each antiquity furnishing. I wasn't doing badly til Telvanni Peninsula and suddenly it was furnishings from maps instead of the usual motif. By the time West Weald came around I'd still only managed a single part of that ugly stupid well, as well as having at least one of the others still missing, and here were a load more furnishings locked behind treasure maps. If it wasn't for the event that increased the chance of leads from maps I probably still wouldn't have the well and even then I never came close to completing all the codex. Unfortunately that event felt like a one-off so no idea if we'll ever get that sort of opportunity again.

Don't get me wrong, the motifs were horrific to collect once they were added to single zones. But at least you had the option to buy them for gold if you really couldn't face another map. The furnishings don't even have that escape route because they're all bound.

If they're going to continue putting leads in treasure map chests the drop rate should be guaranteed, or at least 50/50. I'd personally like to see a chance from any zone chest with a better chance from maps so there's still that incentive to do them.

Meanwhile I haven't managed to find a single Solstice map yet so maybe one day, probably around the 20th anniversary, I'll be able to add these ones to my house!

Grizzbeorn · October 5

Nested RNG is True Evil.

BretonMage · October 5

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Nested RNG is True Evil.

Yeah, it's unnecessarily cruel. Unnecessary because it does absolutely nothing for player engagement. At some stage the RNG becomes so infinitesimal that there's actually no point in trying.

Alphawolf01A · October 5

I thinks maps should have a higher chance to drop in that specific zone. Maybe added to any "boss" tier loot pool. That would at least remove 1 tier of RNG and potentially make them more reliably farmed.

tarsie · October 5

The excruciating truth evinced in this thread is not annecdotal. You have systematically or by negligence created an effective generator of ill will.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/681576/update-on-solstice-treasure-map-leads-drop-data-july-september-2025/p1

I repeat myself here, so that it isnt burried:

tarsie wrote: »

To some of us, ESO, ESO housing in particular is a significant part of our lives. Making us believe that there are items in the game available to us to use in creating what is to us a work of art however ephemeral and simplistic...and then making it virtually impossible to acquire is very cruel. The system we have told you over and over and over again in unconscionable and anyone who says otherwise is not a houser. I quit the game once for six months because I could not get a second drop of an antiquity that wasn't even behind two bloody chests. 1100 dead gryphons don't lie. But at the already excruciating start of another horrific SET of grinds to try and get an antiquity lead even once....I am not sure the game is worth it anymore. I have spent thousands upon thousands of dollars in this game in several accounts for myself and my family. What is wrong with you? There simply is no excuse for this. This is Apocrypha I am speaking of the Cliff Strider. Did the RNG issue you originally had return? I have read through Moonpie's posts and all the other comments left about the treasure chest antiquity system IT IS NOT WORKING. YOU ARE DRIVING PEOPLE AWAY> THE PEOPLE THAT SPEND A LOT OF MONEY ON THIS GAME. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS PRECIOUS In THIS WORLD STOP IT!!!!!!!!!!!

End the Treasure Map/Antiquity system before the end of year celebrations, generate enormous goodwill among your most loyal contingent and get on with other issues.

katanagirl1 · October 5

I will hold onto my West Weald treasure maps until we get an official word that they are fixed. I am eternally stuck at 1/3 codex for everything except the purple grand tree. I can’t stand to dig up another one that has nothing.

Gabriel_H · October 6

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I will hold onto my West Weald treasure maps until we get an official word that they are fixed. I am eternally stuck at 1/3 codex for everything except the purple grand tree. I can’t stand to dig up another one that has nothing.

There are two checks on lead drops. 1) Does a lead drop. 2) If yes, what lead drops. The RNG is not kind on Map leads.

MoonPile · October 6

Agree; Onyxorb already said it all so well.

I'll add:
Blue and green-quality items are still not buyable since Apocrypha; please add them to the vendors:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/677582/antiquities-are-missing-from-their-vendors-for-2-3-years/p1?new=1

And some data: I tested & logged 2/3+ codex Solstice leads since July. For 1.75 months and 76 maps, I got NOTHING. And quit; the rest can be read in that post.

I'll also quote some points from other threads, in case it's helpful for the devs:

1. Could RNG improve; other zone maps are not this bad:

MoonPile wrote: »

...I'll forego explaining once again why 50 maps full of junk is rubbish; much has been said above already.
I've also reported in-game.

But I will add: Gold Coast Maps are a good example
Gold Coast maps, which via combo of reasonable drop rates + lower demand, can be bought for just a few hundred gold (if that) and are a dependable source of Shrine to Dibella leads. This technically drops from any source in the zone, but maps are such a good way of getting it that I got a 2nd and 3rd unlocked for my alt account just during the free ESO+ week. I still use GC maps on my main occasionally to get a free Dibella Shrine. Evergreen gameplay!

Importantly: it did NOT take 50 maps. Only a few, less than 10 or so.

I'd assume what's going on in Solstice majorly deflated drop rates to keep us in the zone longer. I just don't think that's an effective strategy at all, as already explained above by myself and others. It's frustrating, not fun, not rewarding, and makes us less likely to retain interest or keep trying (beyond the occasional experiment like this one, or the handful of housers who are willing to spend 10s of millions on an unlock).

If we must have this map system that everyone's hated for years, then can this be done:
Fix the drop rates to be more like Gold Coast, which is actually reasonable enough to make us want to return and use the system. There's gotta be a happy medium between "nothing desirable inside – not even worth selling" and "nothing desirable inside because the drop rate is so low – not even worth buying".

Make ALL 3/3 antiquities buyable, consistent with the gameplay expectations that system set up years ago: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/677582/antiquities-are-missing-from-their-vendors-for-2-3-years

[*However, Gold Coast also does not have the problem of 5+ leads per zone that are Map-only.]

2. Maps are worse than even Crown Crates (and most other RNG-based systems in this game, all of which have ways to circumvent the gamble or improve chances via collaboration, alternate currencies, etc.):

MoonPile wrote: »

MoonPile wrote: »

https://moonpile.tumblr.com/post/792464909580500992/update-on-solstice-treasure-junk-map-leads-aug

UPDATE – August 26:
TOTAL Sol maps spent ONLY on 2/3 codex = 62

EMPTY maps = 60

Maps since last lead: 45

...-

xencthlu wrote: »

You might know this better than I. What other furnishing in game even compares to the third treasure map antiquity furnishing? It's not the Ayleid bookcases or Fiery Brazier, because even as expensive as they are, they are a functionally infinite number of furnishings once purchased. I can't think of any individual furnishing that might cost as much, except perhaps crown furnishings purchased by converting gold to crowns?

TBH I'd compare it to furnishings in Crown Crates. Even that is more dependable.

I buy only very specific sets of crates, only with gold, and foremost to get good gem return via repeats. So I get packs I've bought before, where I like the bulk of the low-tier items, and get a lot of gems back. Spending 5-10 mil on crate packs pretty much guarantees enough gem return to get some items. ...

With crates, at no point do I actually hope to "win" anything I actually want via natural roll. It's just a numbers game to get enough gems. One could say the same about "Treasure" Maps, but IMO they're worse:
There's not really any way to circumvent their RNG (e.g. Endeavors, repeat pulls, etc.)

Maps are also a waste of time! I hate crates but at least they're instant. With maps we have to play the inventory-management game since they don't stack, then run around like a numpty only to go "oh look, garbage worth < 500 gold again" for the 50th time in a row.

...

3. A few additional reports from other players:

MoonPile wrote: »

Additional reports from other players:
Taking others ~300 maps to unlock specific leads, from Apocrypha to WW to Solstice. A Redditor said the Bismuth tower alone took them 260 maps.

Players on Discord saying they, like me, spend dozens of maps getting zero leads.

Screenshot: a player was running back and forth re-spawning the dirt mound so I decided to PM them and ask about it. It's sad that they agreed my numbers are accurate:

4. I was really excited about these items! Ordinarily I'd be on PTS, playing for hours with them and planning new builds around them. But now... whenever I see the Stone-Nest Gazebo around Solstice, which I'd requested, I just feel disgusted that it's probably another Map lead. I'm not even touching the asset on PTS because I don't want to be disappointed again:

MoonPile wrote: »

... I think these will be an amazing structural piece (if only the others were buyable too): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8355425/#Comment_8355425

I was REALLY excited about the Bismuth Tower -
https://moonpile.tumblr.com/post/786568851473219584/scattered-light-effect
Used the single one I got from 1/3 codex here -
https://moonpile.tumblr.com/post/790521269539028992/the-dressing-room-at-sugar-bowl-suite-eso

...Now I'm just a bit sad
These assets are great, it's a shame they're buried too deep to reasonably be used.

5. Repeating: if these poor odds are meant to keep us coming back, it's doing the opposite, as tarsie says above.

MoonPile wrote: »

I've been testing Solstice Treasure Map leads (here's the related thread) and am going to stop when my stock runs out, soon. Even my initial morbid curiosity ("Since Apocrypha and WW were both bad, let's waste some of my gold to see how awful this is too so I can report it to other players") has totally gone.

Bad enough that many players are deciding to quit engaging with this system or even Housing / ESO altogether.

Folks talk a lot about this in all the different housing communities on Discord, etc. – many don't come to the official forums. (Even those who do come here, not all are willing to comment, maybe only click "Agree".) Many are just done – we'd rather ignore those furnishings existence. Which is sad, because the Housing team did great work on a lot of these! But if we can't get them, nor buy them if we do manage to unlock, it's pointless.

It's hard to believe that this is intended.

Personally, I've stopped buying West Weald maps entirely. I don't do the Skingrad dailies anymore either: https://moonpile.tumblr.com/post/792523535558049792/

If I visit WW at all, I'm really happy to get another Ayleid Grand Tree because we can use them for smoke effects! (Likewise other easy drops I already have, like Dibella shrines, and even Spellscar Shards because they make a really great hidden light [...]

That is to say: I wish the team in charge of this system would come to understand that easier drops are a GOOD thing. Getting the items keep us building for days and weeks, instead of logging out in disappointment after yet another empty-handed run. And players who don't want more can simply let them expire or delete them.

I'm interested to learn what the Eastern Solstice "easy drop" will be.
Update – think I found it: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8374173/#Comment_8374173

But, with the possible exception of 1/3 codex which thankfully appears to be curated recently, I will be ignoring the Eastern Solstice Treasure Map system come U48. (Again, a shame, because the Housing team made some fantastic pieces available for U48. They're just wasted by this system.)

We're getting the message that it's not worth buying new chapters, and "Play how you want" is not true for the Housing community:

MoonPile wrote: »

...For the past couple of years I've played consistently, entirely FOR Housing. But the projects I was excited about aren't even doable. "Play the way you want" – this system won't let me. And it's not like a boss we can gear up for and learn the mechanics, we only have silly conspiracy theories that maybe kinda sorta work.

The lesson repeatedly seems to be that if you're excited about a new release, don't buy that chapter, instead cancel your sub and come back in a couple of years when the things are actually attainable I DOUBT that's the intent, or good for the game. And maybe there are way more robo-hamster types who'll grind no matter how abusive it is, than those of us who try to speak up or just quit. I'm so tired.

6. It's just such a waste: of time, gold, player goodwill, and the devs time making these awesome assets we can't even use.

MoonPile wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

xencthlu wrote: »

Most people who aren't specifically buying maps with gold or grinding archival fortunes are simply not going to see these furnishings at all, because a threshold like "7.5 million gold worth of maps" or "30 days of dedicated grinding" are beyond the means of about 90% of the playerbase. I think they should know why this has been designed specifically to bar them, if it is, indeed, intentional.

Yes, absolutely. I'd also go so far as to say that only 0.001% of players, or those with billions in gold, will ever get the complete codex. Which is a massive shame, ...

Has there been confirmation of this? We have so far seen a lot of speculation going in various directions on whether or not the roll takes into account the leads the player has, and I have not seen any dev confirmation either way. Some players have said that the it rolls once, then if the player has the lead, it just stops and the player gets nothing.

Regarding the issue of ZOS communication, they did say the leads drop, but when players asked them about the 2nd and 3rd codices, there was no answer. So we are still unclear on how it works to get all 3 codices, or if ZOS had even tested to get all 3 codices for all WW antiquities.

Agree with all this, emphasis mine.

And re: someone else above:

It very much does work that way - take it from someone who has over 90% of all codex entries. ...
People are getting these leads, ZOS have said they get them in their tests. The evidence is the leads do drop. So why not for you? A bad RNG made worse by the skewing caused by digging up the zone lead is a distinct possibility - try without doing that.

There are years-old threads one can find here where we've discussed this "tactic" to death. I got the Apocryphal Well lead and every other unlock along the way to it: it did not matter if I held leads. I've also completed the codex for every furnishing I wanted, except –

In West Weald, I quit when I realized the only item I really wanted, a green-quality lead, was not even buyable after unlock. Dozens of maps wasted. Especially when it became clear earlier this year that West Weald wasn't included in the "increased chances of leads" for the Pan-Tamriel event.

In Solstice, I'd been testing and logging drops since July, finally quit despite non-completion. Data here at the top:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/681576/update-on-solstice-treasure-map-leads-drop-data-aug-5-2025/p1?new=1

There were times I held the W. Solstice "trash drop", the Croc Skull, for weeks at a time. Holding it did absolutely nothing. Look at the gap there: 76 empty chests over 1.75 months. Lmao.

To put it as politely as I possibly can for the Forums: that's not fun. Even when I have the means to do this, I don't want to: it's wasteful, boring and depressing.

So I don't like comments like the one quoted, blaming players as if there's a confirmed mechanic that works consistently – there isn't. Or acting like it's only OP who's having this problem – far from it.

"People are getting these leads" – sure, those who grind non-stop spending tens of millions of gold on maps, plus weeks/months/years of time. A minority apparently don't see this as an abuse of their time. While in almost every Housing community, there are dozens of comments from those who'd like to get on with our actual gameplay, but instead are being put off entirely and shelving our ideas because this system is so draining in every way: time, gold, morale. Not all are willing to come here and complain about it, but if you bring up the topic, a bunch always chime in with some variant of "yeah that sucked, it took me ### maps / OR / I gave up" and "I wish ZOS would stop doing this".

I don't get why any player would defend this system. Not even as a trader myself, because there are SO MANY more lucrative, faster and consistent ways to make gold than selling maps. Since June I've had maybe 3 Solstice maps drop naturally, even with Azandar's folios. Regular leads can be a waste of time, but Map leads also waste time, gold, and don't stack so you have to do ridiculous inventory juggling on top of it all. Come on. Send this whole thing back to Satan Molag Bal, I don't want it

Finally I want to reinforce the fact that every other system has failsafes or alternative methods.

I'm sometimes frustrated about bad RNG on furnishing plans, but at least we can collaborate: buy them from other players or request crafting from those who know them. Even Crown Crates now have Seals of Endeavor. Likewise for difficult PVE content: we can gear up and learn the mechanics, get help from our guilds, and dungeons & trials even have curated drops now.

But there is nothing to learn with Maps, it's an ugly gambling system. And since Leads are in no way shared, we can't even collaborate to solve this problem: it was bad enough that I spent my own gold to test, but even if players had donated maps to me, there was no way to circumvent almost 2 months & 76 maps of getting nothing. The only thing we have are quasi-superstitious theories via other players' shared experiences, which may or may not "work" and may as well equate to spinning around in front of a mirror 3 times saying "Bloody Mary" 😂

Now this is potentially being made even worse in U48:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/683385/pts-patch-notes-v11-2-1-eastern-western-solstice-antiquities-combined-is-bad-news

katanagirl1 · 12:48AM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I will hold onto my West Weald treasure maps until we get an official word that they are fixed. I am eternally stuck at 1/3 codex for everything except the purple grand tree. I can’t stand to dig up another one that has nothing.

There are two checks on lead drops. 1) Does a lead drop. 2) If yes, what lead drops. The RNG is not kind on Map leads.

I know that, which is why I posted this.

Hapexamendios · 3:02AM

Worst lead source in the game

anadandy · 10:52AM

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I will hold onto my West Weald treasure maps until we get an official word that they are fixed. I am eternally stuck at 1/3 codex for everything except the purple grand tree. I can’t stand to dig up another one that has nothing.

Yup. I wasted a bunch of fortunes last time West Weald maps were on sale. Won't make that mistake again.

xencthlu · 3:04PM

MoonPile wrote: »

Hey look, it's me! Moonpile quoted me!

I don't speak for everyone, obviously, but at this point I'd rather they not add map lead furnishings at all, instead of dangling the lie they can be acquired in front of low information players. I would rather the dev time put into these essentially non-existent furnishings be invested anywhere players can actually benefit from. Even if that means we're shorter seven furnishing assets per expansion going forward.

High information players like the people who have posted in this thread have been burdened with being the bearer of bad news for people who aren't looking at the forums. I've had to tell guildies and friends "Don't bother with trying to get a Colovian Tapestry, Worn unless you're okay spending 7.5 million gold on a single furnishing. And even if you do, you can't buy it from a vendor afterwards. Treat it like it doesn't exist." To which they respond, "Why is it like this?" And I have to answer, "I have no idea. Zenimax says this is working as intended, but that's all."

Or worse, they go, "I bet it's not that bad. Let me try with just a few treasure maps," and then an hour later they come back half a million gold shorter and nothing to show for it except anger and disappointment. My best friend said to me the other day, "This is why I won't do housing in ESO. I hate it when the game lies to me."

It's miserable. I feel an obligation to not let them make the mistake Moonpile painstakingly and expensively tested at length, but it makes me a joykiller and sometimes a project killer when they have to abandon their idea because it hinges on a single furnishing that just isn't available. It's worse than the Battleground achievement furnishings that realistically no decorator is going to see because at least in their futile short-lived struggles to acquire those, they will be making gold instead of wasting it.

It's comparable to "You wasted fifteen dollars buying the Curse of Vampirism off the Crown Store? I would have bitten you for free" levels of scamming and punishing low information, low community integration players. And that was already indefensible. What is the business case for punishing this category of players so expensively, that Zenimax keeps doing it over and over across the years? Does the business case for punishing this category of players actually justify the development time spent on the furnishing assets?

Just... stop. Please. Housing is hard enough for players to get into already, without the incredibly discouraging knowledge that some categories of furnishings secretly aren't available.

AzuraFan · 6:15PM

Nested RNG should never be a thing, especially with the brutal RNG rates in this game.