How to Kill a community

BardokRedSnow · October 2

Forcing a player base that actively pays for your game to be your test dummy and accept something that we did not have since conception of the game is crazy work. Think about that, you have been putting money into this world for literal years, over a decade and they take away every last instance of pvp in cyrodiil to make you do the work they themselves should be doing. Something that the majority of veteran players clearly do not want as it is dead.

The fact that a pve event drains the vengeance population should tell you everything you need to know. This is not for pvpers, it was never for pvpers, and pvers will not sustain it long term... Anyone else arguing against this is coping because they have a chip on their shoulder with pvp and its community.

Two things can be true at the same time however. Yes vengeance is trash, yes subclassing is trash. Both are killing the game and turning it into something it never was, and while people here cope trying to push blame anywhere but Vengeance, the overall eso player count is plummeting, and that can't be denied.

ShutUpitsRed · October 2

Eriboss5 wrote: »

It seems you are panicking about players choosing vengeance over current PvP. But if you have read all the posts over the years about PvP, you could have seen this coming. For the record, I doubt that even if ZOS were to ever make vengeance the main PvP, that they wouldn't leave a campaign with the current PvP active.

I wouldn’t say I’m panicking about PvP players choosing vengeance over the current PvP. I’m more panicked about the PvE community having such an extreme irrational disconnect toward a PvP community that has been around for 10+ years and creating a false narrative on how great vengeance is. If the tables were turned and the people who achieved the highest levels of PvE were forced to lower their play style and forced to halt their community for a week they would be upset. Imagine if a trading guild could not trade. Imagine a questing guild only able to do 1 quest. Imagine a nodes farmer only able to fish. These are all examples of what being FORCED to test for a dev is. It’s terrible. It’s wrong. I didn’t pay money to be forced to help fix their problems.

Most insightful post I've read in this forum in a while. This whole situation is so frustrating.

ShutUpitsRed · October 2

JustLovely wrote: »

At least they named the vengeance treatment accurately. ...vengeance against the PvP community.

It was for making Gina cry.

Joy_Division · October 2

JustLovely wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Eriboss5 wrote: »

Hey everyone,

I wanted to open up a discussion (or maybe just vent a little) about how the new "Vengeance" PvP server has really hurt the classic Greyhost PvP experience. I know ZOS introduced Vengeance to address some long-standing issues—queue times, performance, population balance, etc.—but in the process, it feels like they’ve gutted what made Greyhost such a unique and vibrant part of Cyrodiil.

1. Population Drain

Since Vengeance launched, Greyhost feels like a ghost town. During prime time, we used to have full queues and intense battles around every corner—Keeps constantly flipping, massive coordinated fights, and real strategy. Now? It's barely active. Half the alliances don’t even bother showing up. The competitive edge is gone.

2. Split Community

Instead of fixing the underlying issues with Cyrodiil, they just created a separate instance and split the community. The PvP community in ESO is already niche, and now we had servers cannibalizing the same player base. It’s harder than ever to find organized groups unless you’re already deep into a guild and even then as a GM it is hard to run.

3. Sweaty Meta vs. Casual Fights

Greyhost always had a nice balance of hardcore and casual players. You could run solo, do small-scale fights, or jump into massive zergs. Now, Vengeance has turned into a sweaty, no skill casual zerg PvP fest with all the low-end players flocking there. Meanwhile, Greyhost is left with randoms, disorganized pugs, and barely enough activity to sustain a siege.

4. Loss of Identity

Greyhost had its own identity. The guild rivalries, the politics, the alliances—those took years to build. Vengeance reset all of that. Now it's just another PvP instance, without the history, without the community culture. It doesn’t feel like Cyrodiil anymore—it feels like an eSports lobby.

I’m not saying Vengeance shouldn't exist, but it shouldn't have ever been a question to have its existence in the first place. had to be a better way to integrate it without killing off what made Greyhost special. Thank you ZOS for damaging the hard work and effort ALL FACTIONS have put into creating such a fun, competitive environment just to do "testing" on issues that never seem to be solved. 10+ years and still having trouble with the mail system and why do I have to reload UI to open mail or port to another area? crazy. Maybe we should host a Vengece for PvE and make it so PvErs get NO DROPS. No Gold. No Craftable gear to have a chance to figure that bug out. Sounds like a great idea.

Curious to hear your thoughts—have you stuck with Greyhost? Switched to Vengeance? Is there still hope for the old server, or is it time to come to terms that whoever is creating these "ideas" wants to kill the PvP community.

You are describing Cyrodiil circa 2016.

All of the problems you are attributing to Vengeance have been the consequence of ZOS's increasingly reliance of broken proc sets, heavy favoritism of defense/healing mechanics, hybridization that allowed players to have builds with no weaknesses, and a terrible decision to combine the roles of lead PvP and lead combat under the same team (which led to the neglect of both).

Cyrodiil has been a ghost town for years now. Even ball groups and guilds cannibalize each other because the population is so low. The guilds have left because the balance is terrible and people just got bored literally doing the same thing over and over and over for years: "3-2-1 Deep Fissure, wait for my Rush of Agony proc." Keeps have not consistently flipped ever since ZOS lowered the population caps, making it impossible for the sort of action you are describing.

The sentiment is not wrong; Cyrodiil was once an interesting and more lively place. But those who once enjoyed it left long before Vengeance was ever even an idea. It's not because of Vengeance

I haven't seen you in Cyrodiil in 5 years except the one time we talked during vengeance 2 test. You stopped PvP'ing regularly a LONG time ago. So why all of a sudden you want to see the game the rest of us enjoy taken away? Why aren't you pushing ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil you just claimed to love?

You can disagree with my posts, but please do not lie about me.

The only times I have stopped PvPing regularly was for about 9 months or so when New World launched and the past 4 or 5 months because ESO constantly disconnects me from its server and I'm tired of all the failed attempts to try and fix the issue. As for Vengeance 2, well, I was on a lot more during Vengeance I. You do not know when I play or why. Please stop claiming you do.

And you can also stop lying that I want to see the game people enjoy taken away. I have never said anything on these forums, on Discord, or to anyone else implying that I want to see GH taken away. Just because I supported Vengeance, does not automatically make me someone who wants to see Live PvP taken away. That is purely a product of your fears that ZOS will do that. It isn't based on anything I said.

I have pushed for ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil I loved. For the past ten years I have spent hours upon hours upon hours to writing (long) specific,, coherent, and evidence-based posts in an effort to guide ZOS to make Cyrodiil more fun (for everyone). Since the beginning, I was there telling them about AOE caps, about how organized groups were too strong (even though I played in one), about how the map needed to be used more, about how the rewards needed improvement, about how class balance/nerfs/proc sets were ruining the experience, about how unfriendly Cyrodiil had become to newcomers.

Here's one from 2024 Look at the time and thought I put into that. That you would even insinuate that I want to see Live PvP taken away loudly says you know nothing about me, what I want, or my posting history,

I am critical of ZOS because they deserve to be criticized. What the OP describes was 100% not what GH was before the Vengeance testing. I know because I was regularly PvPing right when Vengeance started. Yep, hop onto a DC character to sit through that prime time que of 4 on a Friday night to see a dead map, when the only action was a cannibalized EP "guild," really just the best dozen players left from multiple older guilds, running amok on the third floor of Warden or Glade because ZOS has no idea how to balance things. This doesn't mean I want them to take away GH. It means I don;t want to be a paying customer and meekly accept them taking my money while they literally do nothing for 5 years to improve Cyrodiil.

Moonspawn · October 2

Joy_Division wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Eriboss5 wrote: »

Hey everyone,

I wanted to open up a discussion (or maybe just vent a little) about how the new "Vengeance" PvP server has really hurt the classic Greyhost PvP experience. I know ZOS introduced Vengeance to address some long-standing issues—queue times, performance, population balance, etc.—but in the process, it feels like they’ve gutted what made Greyhost such a unique and vibrant part of Cyrodiil.

1. Population Drain

Since Vengeance launched, Greyhost feels like a ghost town. During prime time, we used to have full queues and intense battles around every corner—Keeps constantly flipping, massive coordinated fights, and real strategy. Now? It's barely active. Half the alliances don’t even bother showing up. The competitive edge is gone.

2. Split Community

Instead of fixing the underlying issues with Cyrodiil, they just created a separate instance and split the community. The PvP community in ESO is already niche, and now we had servers cannibalizing the same player base. It’s harder than ever to find organized groups unless you’re already deep into a guild and even then as a GM it is hard to run.

3. Sweaty Meta vs. Casual Fights

Greyhost always had a nice balance of hardcore and casual players. You could run solo, do small-scale fights, or jump into massive zergs. Now, Vengeance has turned into a sweaty, no skill casual zerg PvP fest with all the low-end players flocking there. Meanwhile, Greyhost is left with randoms, disorganized pugs, and barely enough activity to sustain a siege.

4. Loss of Identity

Greyhost had its own identity. The guild rivalries, the politics, the alliances—those took years to build. Vengeance reset all of that. Now it's just another PvP instance, without the history, without the community culture. It doesn’t feel like Cyrodiil anymore—it feels like an eSports lobby.

I’m not saying Vengeance shouldn't exist, but it shouldn't have ever been a question to have its existence in the first place. had to be a better way to integrate it without killing off what made Greyhost special. Thank you ZOS for damaging the hard work and effort ALL FACTIONS have put into creating such a fun, competitive environment just to do "testing" on issues that never seem to be solved. 10+ years and still having trouble with the mail system and why do I have to reload UI to open mail or port to another area? crazy. Maybe we should host a Vengece for PvE and make it so PvErs get NO DROPS. No Gold. No Craftable gear to have a chance to figure that bug out. Sounds like a great idea.

Curious to hear your thoughts—have you stuck with Greyhost? Switched to Vengeance? Is there still hope for the old server, or is it time to come to terms that whoever is creating these "ideas" wants to kill the PvP community.

You are describing Cyrodiil circa 2016.

All of the problems you are attributing to Vengeance have been the consequence of ZOS's increasingly reliance of broken proc sets, heavy favoritism of defense/healing mechanics, hybridization that allowed players to have builds with no weaknesses, and a terrible decision to combine the roles of lead PvP and lead combat under the same team (which led to the neglect of both).

Cyrodiil has been a ghost town for years now. Even ball groups and guilds cannibalize each other because the population is so low. The guilds have left because the balance is terrible and people just got bored literally doing the same thing over and over and over for years: "3-2-1 Deep Fissure, wait for my Rush of Agony proc." Keeps have not consistently flipped ever since ZOS lowered the population caps, making it impossible for the sort of action you are describing.

The sentiment is not wrong; Cyrodiil was once an interesting and more lively place. But those who once enjoyed it left long before Vengeance was ever even an idea. It's not because of Vengeance

I haven't seen you in Cyrodiil in 5 years except the one time we talked during vengeance 2 test. You stopped PvP'ing regularly a LONG time ago. So why all of a sudden you want to see the game the rest of us enjoy taken away? Why aren't you pushing ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil you just claimed to love?

You can disagree with my posts, but please do not lie about me.

The only times I have stopped PvPing regularly was for about 9 months or so when New World launched and the past 4 or 5 months because ESO constantly disconnects me from its server and I'm tired of all the failed attempts to try and fix the issue. As for Vengeance 2, well, I was on a lot more during Vengeance I. You do not know when I play or why. Please stop claiming you do.

And you can also stop lying that I want to see the game people enjoy taken away. I have never said anything on these forums, on Discord, or to anyone else implying that I want to see GH taken away. Just because I supported Vengeance, does not automatically make me someone who wants to see Live PvP taken away. That is purely a product of your fears that ZOS will do that. It isn't based on anything I said.

I have pushed for ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil I loved. For the past ten years I have spent hours upon hours upon hours to writing (long) specific,, coherent, and evidence-based posts in an effort to guide ZOS to make Cyrodiil more fun (for everyone). Since the beginning, I was there telling them about AOE caps, about how organized groups were too strong (even though I played in one), about how the map needed to be used more, about how the rewards needed improvement, about how class balance/nerfs/proc sets were ruining the experience, about how unfriendly Cyrodiil had become to newcomers.

Here's one from 2024 Look at the time and thought I put into that. That you would even insinuate that I want to see Live PvP taken away loudly says you know nothing about me, what I want, or my posting history,

I am critical of ZOS because they deserve to be criticized. What the OP describes was 100% not what GH was before the Vengeance testing. I know because I was regularly PvPing right when Vengeance started. Yep, hop onto a DC character to sit through that prime time que of 4 on a Friday night to see a dead map, when the only action was a cannibalized EP "guild," really just the best dozen players left from multiple older guilds, running amok on the third floor of Warden or Glade because ZOS has no idea how to balance things. This doesn't mean I want them to take away GH. It means I don;t want to be a paying customer and meekly accept them taking my money while they literally do nothing for 5 years to improve Cyrodiil.

Would removing the ability to group up solve Cyrodiil?

MasterSpatula · 12:00AM

After the disgraceful way the community behaved during the last Vengeance (both those who petulantly boycotted the test and those who took advantage of that situation), I'm less concerned about ZOS killing the community than I am about it destroying itself.

I'd never felt ashamed to be a member of this community before last week, but holy crap guys, that was embarrassing.

BardokRedSnow · 12:06AM

MasterSpatula wrote: »

After the disgraceful way the community behaved during the last Vengeance (both those who petulantly boycotted the test and those who took advantage of that situation), I'm less concerned about ZOS killing the community than I am about it destroying itself.

I'd never felt ashamed to be a member of this community before last week, but holy crap guys, that was embarrassing.

Why is this community like this lol.

Not wanting to play something is not a boycott, neither is losing interest in a game when it forces you into content you dont want and thus not paying for the subscription.

A real boycott would be refusing to play zenimax and bethesda games and organizing others to refuse as well. This is just zenimax getting ratio'd for a poor decision and a lack of understanding of their fanbase and their game.

BardokRedSnow · 12:09AM

Moonspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Eriboss5 wrote: »

Hey everyone,

I wanted to open up a discussion (or maybe just vent a little) about how the new "Vengeance" PvP server has really hurt the classic Greyhost PvP experience. I know ZOS introduced Vengeance to address some long-standing issues—queue times, performance, population balance, etc.—but in the process, it feels like they’ve gutted what made Greyhost such a unique and vibrant part of Cyrodiil.

1. Population Drain

Since Vengeance launched, Greyhost feels like a ghost town. During prime time, we used to have full queues and intense battles around every corner—Keeps constantly flipping, massive coordinated fights, and real strategy. Now? It's barely active. Half the alliances don’t even bother showing up. The competitive edge is gone.

2. Split Community

Instead of fixing the underlying issues with Cyrodiil, they just created a separate instance and split the community. The PvP community in ESO is already niche, and now we had servers cannibalizing the same player base. It’s harder than ever to find organized groups unless you’re already deep into a guild and even then as a GM it is hard to run.

3. Sweaty Meta vs. Casual Fights

Greyhost always had a nice balance of hardcore and casual players. You could run solo, do small-scale fights, or jump into massive zergs. Now, Vengeance has turned into a sweaty, no skill casual zerg PvP fest with all the low-end players flocking there. Meanwhile, Greyhost is left with randoms, disorganized pugs, and barely enough activity to sustain a siege.

4. Loss of Identity

Greyhost had its own identity. The guild rivalries, the politics, the alliances—those took years to build. Vengeance reset all of that. Now it's just another PvP instance, without the history, without the community culture. It doesn’t feel like Cyrodiil anymore—it feels like an eSports lobby.

I’m not saying Vengeance shouldn't exist, but it shouldn't have ever been a question to have its existence in the first place. had to be a better way to integrate it without killing off what made Greyhost special. Thank you ZOS for damaging the hard work and effort ALL FACTIONS have put into creating such a fun, competitive environment just to do "testing" on issues that never seem to be solved. 10+ years and still having trouble with the mail system and why do I have to reload UI to open mail or port to another area? crazy. Maybe we should host a Vengece for PvE and make it so PvErs get NO DROPS. No Gold. No Craftable gear to have a chance to figure that bug out. Sounds like a great idea.

Curious to hear your thoughts—have you stuck with Greyhost? Switched to Vengeance? Is there still hope for the old server, or is it time to come to terms that whoever is creating these "ideas" wants to kill the PvP community.

You are describing Cyrodiil circa 2016.

All of the problems you are attributing to Vengeance have been the consequence of ZOS's increasingly reliance of broken proc sets, heavy favoritism of defense/healing mechanics, hybridization that allowed players to have builds with no weaknesses, and a terrible decision to combine the roles of lead PvP and lead combat under the same team (which led to the neglect of both).

Cyrodiil has been a ghost town for years now. Even ball groups and guilds cannibalize each other because the population is so low. The guilds have left because the balance is terrible and people just got bored literally doing the same thing over and over and over for years: "3-2-1 Deep Fissure, wait for my Rush of Agony proc." Keeps have not consistently flipped ever since ZOS lowered the population caps, making it impossible for the sort of action you are describing.

The sentiment is not wrong; Cyrodiil was once an interesting and more lively place. But those who once enjoyed it left long before Vengeance was ever even an idea. It's not because of Vengeance

I haven't seen you in Cyrodiil in 5 years except the one time we talked during vengeance 2 test. You stopped PvP'ing regularly a LONG time ago. So why all of a sudden you want to see the game the rest of us enjoy taken away? Why aren't you pushing ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil you just claimed to love?

You can disagree with my posts, but please do not lie about me.

The only times I have stopped PvPing regularly was for about 9 months or so when New World launched and the past 4 or 5 months because ESO constantly disconnects me from its server and I'm tired of all the failed attempts to try and fix the issue. As for Vengeance 2, well, I was on a lot more during Vengeance I. You do not know when I play or why. Please stop claiming you do.

And you can also stop lying that I want to see the game people enjoy taken away. I have never said anything on these forums, on Discord, or to anyone else implying that I want to see GH taken away. Just because I supported Vengeance, does not automatically make me someone who wants to see Live PvP taken away. That is purely a product of your fears that ZOS will do that. It isn't based on anything I said.

I have pushed for ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil I loved. For the past ten years I have spent hours upon hours upon hours to writing (long) specific,, coherent, and evidence-based posts in an effort to guide ZOS to make Cyrodiil more fun (for everyone). Since the beginning, I was there telling them about AOE caps, about how organized groups were too strong (even though I played in one), about how the map needed to be used more, about how the rewards needed improvement, about how class balance/nerfs/proc sets were ruining the experience, about how unfriendly Cyrodiil had become to newcomers.

Here's one from 2024 Look at the time and thought I put into that. That you would even insinuate that I want to see Live PvP taken away loudly says you know nothing about me, what I want, or my posting history,

I am critical of ZOS because they deserve to be criticized. What the OP describes was 100% not what GH was before the Vengeance testing. I know because I was regularly PvPing right when Vengeance started. Yep, hop onto a DC character to sit through that prime time que of 4 on a Friday night to see a dead map, when the only action was a cannibalized EP "guild," really just the best dozen players left from multiple older guilds, running amok on the third floor of Warden or Glade because ZOS has no idea how to balance things. This doesn't mean I want them to take away GH. It means I don;t want to be a paying customer and meekly accept them taking my money while they literally do nothing for 5 years to improve Cyrodiil.

Would removing the ability to group up solve Cyrodiil?

No. Removing heal stacking and nerfing pulls would.

There's already the advantage of coordination and numbers, groups dont need infinite heal circles and shield spam, plus the ability to force people into an Ult dump.

LPapirius · 12:25AM

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Eriboss5 wrote: »

Hey everyone,

I wanted to open up a discussion (or maybe just vent a little) about how the new "Vengeance" PvP server has really hurt the classic Greyhost PvP experience. I know ZOS introduced Vengeance to address some long-standing issues—queue times, performance, population balance, etc.—but in the process, it feels like they’ve gutted what made Greyhost such a unique and vibrant part of Cyrodiil.

1. Population Drain

Since Vengeance launched, Greyhost feels like a ghost town. During prime time, we used to have full queues and intense battles around every corner—Keeps constantly flipping, massive coordinated fights, and real strategy. Now? It's barely active. Half the alliances don’t even bother showing up. The competitive edge is gone.

2. Split Community

Instead of fixing the underlying issues with Cyrodiil, they just created a separate instance and split the community. The PvP community in ESO is already niche, and now we had servers cannibalizing the same player base. It’s harder than ever to find organized groups unless you’re already deep into a guild and even then as a GM it is hard to run.

3. Sweaty Meta vs. Casual Fights

Greyhost always had a nice balance of hardcore and casual players. You could run solo, do small-scale fights, or jump into massive zergs. Now, Vengeance has turned into a sweaty, no skill casual zerg PvP fest with all the low-end players flocking there. Meanwhile, Greyhost is left with randoms, disorganized pugs, and barely enough activity to sustain a siege.

4. Loss of Identity

Greyhost had its own identity. The guild rivalries, the politics, the alliances—those took years to build. Vengeance reset all of that. Now it's just another PvP instance, without the history, without the community culture. It doesn’t feel like Cyrodiil anymore—it feels like an eSports lobby.

I’m not saying Vengeance shouldn't exist, but it shouldn't have ever been a question to have its existence in the first place. had to be a better way to integrate it without killing off what made Greyhost special. Thank you ZOS for damaging the hard work and effort ALL FACTIONS have put into creating such a fun, competitive environment just to do "testing" on issues that never seem to be solved. 10+ years and still having trouble with the mail system and why do I have to reload UI to open mail or port to another area? crazy. Maybe we should host a Vengece for PvE and make it so PvErs get NO DROPS. No Gold. No Craftable gear to have a chance to figure that bug out. Sounds like a great idea.

Curious to hear your thoughts—have you stuck with Greyhost? Switched to Vengeance? Is there still hope for the old server, or is it time to come to terms that whoever is creating these "ideas" wants to kill the PvP community.

You are describing Cyrodiil circa 2016.

All of the problems you are attributing to Vengeance have been the consequence of ZOS's increasingly reliance of broken proc sets, heavy favoritism of defense/healing mechanics, hybridization that allowed players to have builds with no weaknesses, and a terrible decision to combine the roles of lead PvP and lead combat under the same team (which led to the neglect of both).

Cyrodiil has been a ghost town for years now. Even ball groups and guilds cannibalize each other because the population is so low. The guilds have left because the balance is terrible and people just got bored literally doing the same thing over and over and over for years: "3-2-1 Deep Fissure, wait for my Rush of Agony proc." Keeps have not consistently flipped ever since ZOS lowered the population caps, making it impossible for the sort of action you are describing.

The sentiment is not wrong; Cyrodiil was once an interesting and more lively place. But those who once enjoyed it left long before Vengeance was ever even an idea. It's not because of Vengeance

I haven't seen you in Cyrodiil in 5 years except the one time we talked during vengeance 2 test. You stopped PvP'ing regularly a LONG time ago. So why all of a sudden you want to see the game the rest of us enjoy taken away? Why aren't you pushing ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil you just claimed to love?

You can disagree with my posts, but please do not lie about me.

The only times I have stopped PvPing regularly was for about 9 months or so when New World launched and the past 4 or 5 months because ESO constantly disconnects me from its server and I'm tired of all the failed attempts to try and fix the issue. As for Vengeance 2, well, I was on a lot more during Vengeance I. You do not know when I play or why. Please stop claiming you do.

And you can also stop lying that I want to see the game people enjoy taken away. I have never said anything on these forums, on Discord, or to anyone else implying that I want to see GH taken away. Just because I supported Vengeance, does not automatically make me someone who wants to see Live PvP taken away. That is purely a product of your fears that ZOS will do that. It isn't based on anything I said.

I have pushed for ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil I loved. For the past ten years I have spent hours upon hours upon hours to writing (long) specific,, coherent, and evidence-based posts in an effort to guide ZOS to make Cyrodiil more fun (for everyone). Since the beginning, I was there telling them about AOE caps, about how organized groups were too strong (even though I played in one), about how the map needed to be used more, about how the rewards needed improvement, about how class balance/nerfs/proc sets were ruining the experience, about how unfriendly Cyrodiil had become to newcomers.

Here's one from 2024 Look at the time and thought I put into that. That you would even insinuate that I want to see Live PvP taken away loudly says you know nothing about me, what I want, or my posting history,

I am critical of ZOS because they deserve to be criticized. What the OP describes was 100% not what GH was before the Vengeance testing. I know because I was regularly PvPing right when Vengeance started. Yep, hop onto a DC character to sit through that prime time que of 4 on a Friday night to see a dead map, when the only action was a cannibalized EP "guild," really just the best dozen players left from multiple older guilds, running amok on the third floor of Warden or Glade because ZOS has no idea how to balance things. This doesn't mean I want them to take away GH. It means I don;t want to be a paying customer and meekly accept them taking my money while they literally do nothing for 5 years to improve Cyrodiil.

Would removing the ability to group up solve Cyrodiil?

No. Removing heal stacking and nerfing pulls would.

There's already the advantage of coordination and numbers, groups dont need infinite heal circles and shield spam, plus the ability to force people into an Ult dump.

The irony is that vengeance doesn't limit heal and shield stacking. Even with vengeance ZOS isn't doing the thing PvP players have been begging for since circa 2018.

JustLovely · 12:39AM

Joy_Division wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Eriboss5 wrote: »

Hey everyone,

I wanted to open up a discussion (or maybe just vent a little) about how the new "Vengeance" PvP server has really hurt the classic Greyhost PvP experience. I know ZOS introduced Vengeance to address some long-standing issues—queue times, performance, population balance, etc.—but in the process, it feels like they’ve gutted what made Greyhost such a unique and vibrant part of Cyrodiil.

1. Population Drain

Since Vengeance launched, Greyhost feels like a ghost town. During prime time, we used to have full queues and intense battles around every corner—Keeps constantly flipping, massive coordinated fights, and real strategy. Now? It's barely active. Half the alliances don’t even bother showing up. The competitive edge is gone.

2. Split Community

Instead of fixing the underlying issues with Cyrodiil, they just created a separate instance and split the community. The PvP community in ESO is already niche, and now we had servers cannibalizing the same player base. It’s harder than ever to find organized groups unless you’re already deep into a guild and even then as a GM it is hard to run.

3. Sweaty Meta vs. Casual Fights

Greyhost always had a nice balance of hardcore and casual players. You could run solo, do small-scale fights, or jump into massive zergs. Now, Vengeance has turned into a sweaty, no skill casual zerg PvP fest with all the low-end players flocking there. Meanwhile, Greyhost is left with randoms, disorganized pugs, and barely enough activity to sustain a siege.

4. Loss of Identity

Greyhost had its own identity. The guild rivalries, the politics, the alliances—those took years to build. Vengeance reset all of that. Now it's just another PvP instance, without the history, without the community culture. It doesn’t feel like Cyrodiil anymore—it feels like an eSports lobby.

I’m not saying Vengeance shouldn't exist, but it shouldn't have ever been a question to have its existence in the first place. had to be a better way to integrate it without killing off what made Greyhost special. Thank you ZOS for damaging the hard work and effort ALL FACTIONS have put into creating such a fun, competitive environment just to do "testing" on issues that never seem to be solved. 10+ years and still having trouble with the mail system and why do I have to reload UI to open mail or port to another area? crazy. Maybe we should host a Vengece for PvE and make it so PvErs get NO DROPS. No Gold. No Craftable gear to have a chance to figure that bug out. Sounds like a great idea.

Curious to hear your thoughts—have you stuck with Greyhost? Switched to Vengeance? Is there still hope for the old server, or is it time to come to terms that whoever is creating these "ideas" wants to kill the PvP community.

You are describing Cyrodiil circa 2016.

All of the problems you are attributing to Vengeance have been the consequence of ZOS's increasingly reliance of broken proc sets, heavy favoritism of defense/healing mechanics, hybridization that allowed players to have builds with no weaknesses, and a terrible decision to combine the roles of lead PvP and lead combat under the same team (which led to the neglect of both).

Cyrodiil has been a ghost town for years now. Even ball groups and guilds cannibalize each other because the population is so low. The guilds have left because the balance is terrible and people just got bored literally doing the same thing over and over and over for years: "3-2-1 Deep Fissure, wait for my Rush of Agony proc." Keeps have not consistently flipped ever since ZOS lowered the population caps, making it impossible for the sort of action you are describing.

The sentiment is not wrong; Cyrodiil was once an interesting and more lively place. But those who once enjoyed it left long before Vengeance was ever even an idea. It's not because of Vengeance

I haven't seen you in Cyrodiil in 5 years except the one time we talked during vengeance 2 test. You stopped PvP'ing regularly a LONG time ago. So why all of a sudden you want to see the game the rest of us enjoy taken away? Why aren't you pushing ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil you just claimed to love?

You can disagree with my posts, but please do not lie about me.

The only times I have stopped PvPing regularly was for about 9 months or so when New World launched and the past 4 or 5 months because ESO constantly disconnects me from its server and I'm tired of all the failed attempts to try and fix the issue. As for Vengeance 2, well, I was on a lot more during Vengeance I. You do not know when I play or why. Please stop claiming you do.

And you can also stop lying that I want to see the game people enjoy taken away. I have never said anything on these forums, on Discord, or to anyone else implying that I want to see GH taken away. Just because I supported Vengeance, does not automatically make me someone who wants to see Live PvP taken away. That is purely a product of your fears that ZOS will do that. It isn't based on anything I said.

I have pushed for ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil I loved. For the past ten years I have spent hours upon hours upon hours to writing (long) specific,, coherent, and evidence-based posts in an effort to guide ZOS to make Cyrodiil more fun (for everyone). Since the beginning, I was there telling them about AOE caps, about how organized groups were too strong (even though I played in one), about how the map needed to be used more, about how the rewards needed improvement, about how class balance/nerfs/proc sets were ruining the experience, about how unfriendly Cyrodiil had become to newcomers.

Here's one from 2024 Look at the time and thought I put into that. That you would even insinuate that I want to see Live PvP taken away loudly says you know nothing about me, what I want, or my posting history,

I am critical of ZOS because they deserve to be criticized. What the OP describes was 100% not what GH was before the Vengeance testing. I know because I was regularly PvPing right when Vengeance started. Yep, hop onto a DC character to sit through that prime time que of 4 on a Friday night to see a dead map, when the only action was a cannibalized EP "guild," really just the best dozen players left from multiple older guilds, running amok on the third floor of Warden or Glade because ZOS has no idea how to balance things. This doesn't mean I want them to take away GH. It means I don;t want to be a paying customer and meekly accept them taking my money while they literally do nothing for 5 years to improve Cyrodiil.

I'm not lying. I'm in Cyrodiil every day. I used to see you there every day as well until about 5 years ago. Of course, me not seeing you doesn't mean you weren't there. It just means what I said, that I haven't seen you in Cyrodiil for about 5 years except for the one time we spoke via in game chat during vengeance 2.

At what point did I say anything about you personally? I stated what I've seen in the last 5 years and how it differed from what I saw in the years prior to 2020.

JustLovely · 12:41AM

MasterSpatula wrote: »

After the disgraceful way the community behaved during the last Vengeance (both those who petulantly boycotted the test and those who took advantage of that situation), I'm less concerned about ZOS killing the community than I am about it destroying itself.

I'd never felt ashamed to be a member of this community before last week, but holy crap guys, that was embarrassing.

This is what is called "victim shaming". The players have done nothing wrong when they object to being treated disrespectfully. ZOS is who made it play vengeance or don't PvP, not the players.

katanagirl1 · 1:45AM

I don’t mind doing some game testing for them, this sort of thing won’t be achieved on anything but live, but it would be nice to get feedback on what each iteration of these tests found. I haven’t seen any official statements about it here, if it was mentioned on a social media platform I would have missed it. Have they learned anything at all? We are making this happen for them, they should share it with us.

This last test probably didn’t shed any new light on the situation because of the low population. From a scientific perspective it should be repeated for larger populations without adding any more stuff, though good luck creating that high population again. December test on consoles will have Gray Host campaign too, so there will be no useful information from that test due to the fact that we can’t fill Gray Host anymore by itself.

At this point I would prefer that if their goal is to replace GH with Vengeance at the end of testing if they can’t figure out the performance issues and they have not learned anything at this point, then they should just stop the testing and leave things as they are. My confidence in this process is waning fast.

moderatelyfatman · 3:36AM

"Every time I start to think I'm a pessimist, something bad happens!'

I can't remember who said that but it's basically my experience with anything combat related in the game. I'm routinely surprised and delighted with quite a number of non-combat change related to QoL (e.g. Stickerbook, Armory, Jewellery mats, Trial Finder) and also new content such as the dungeons (some of the best in MMOs) and often the trials.

But I usually assume the worst with any changes which are combat related. Even when something sound potentially interesting, I expect the execution to be so badly done that it will be a net detractor from my playing experience.

So I've named a number of non-combat changes that I've liked but I can't think of a single combat change in the last five years that has made the game significantly better.

Joy_Division · 5:48AM

JustLovely wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Eriboss5 wrote: »

Hey everyone,

I wanted to open up a discussion (or maybe just vent a little) about how the new "Vengeance" PvP server has really hurt the classic Greyhost PvP experience. I know ZOS introduced Vengeance to address some long-standing issues—queue times, performance, population balance, etc.—but in the process, it feels like they’ve gutted what made Greyhost such a unique and vibrant part of Cyrodiil.

1. Population Drain

Since Vengeance launched, Greyhost feels like a ghost town. During prime time, we used to have full queues and intense battles around every corner—Keeps constantly flipping, massive coordinated fights, and real strategy. Now? It's barely active. Half the alliances don’t even bother showing up. The competitive edge is gone.

2. Split Community

Instead of fixing the underlying issues with Cyrodiil, they just created a separate instance and split the community. The PvP community in ESO is already niche, and now we had servers cannibalizing the same player base. It’s harder than ever to find organized groups unless you’re already deep into a guild and even then as a GM it is hard to run.

3. Sweaty Meta vs. Casual Fights

Greyhost always had a nice balance of hardcore and casual players. You could run solo, do small-scale fights, or jump into massive zergs. Now, Vengeance has turned into a sweaty, no skill casual zerg PvP fest with all the low-end players flocking there. Meanwhile, Greyhost is left with randoms, disorganized pugs, and barely enough activity to sustain a siege.

4. Loss of Identity

Greyhost had its own identity. The guild rivalries, the politics, the alliances—those took years to build. Vengeance reset all of that. Now it's just another PvP instance, without the history, without the community culture. It doesn’t feel like Cyrodiil anymore—it feels like an eSports lobby.

I’m not saying Vengeance shouldn't exist, but it shouldn't have ever been a question to have its existence in the first place. had to be a better way to integrate it without killing off what made Greyhost special. Thank you ZOS for damaging the hard work and effort ALL FACTIONS have put into creating such a fun, competitive environment just to do "testing" on issues that never seem to be solved. 10+ years and still having trouble with the mail system and why do I have to reload UI to open mail or port to another area? crazy. Maybe we should host a Vengece for PvE and make it so PvErs get NO DROPS. No Gold. No Craftable gear to have a chance to figure that bug out. Sounds like a great idea.

Curious to hear your thoughts—have you stuck with Greyhost? Switched to Vengeance? Is there still hope for the old server, or is it time to come to terms that whoever is creating these "ideas" wants to kill the PvP community.

You are describing Cyrodiil circa 2016.

All of the problems you are attributing to Vengeance have been the consequence of ZOS's increasingly reliance of broken proc sets, heavy favoritism of defense/healing mechanics, hybridization that allowed players to have builds with no weaknesses, and a terrible decision to combine the roles of lead PvP and lead combat under the same team (which led to the neglect of both).

Cyrodiil has been a ghost town for years now. Even ball groups and guilds cannibalize each other because the population is so low. The guilds have left because the balance is terrible and people just got bored literally doing the same thing over and over and over for years: "3-2-1 Deep Fissure, wait for my Rush of Agony proc." Keeps have not consistently flipped ever since ZOS lowered the population caps, making it impossible for the sort of action you are describing.

The sentiment is not wrong; Cyrodiil was once an interesting and more lively place. But those who once enjoyed it left long before Vengeance was ever even an idea. It's not because of Vengeance

I haven't seen you in Cyrodiil in 5 years except the one time we talked during vengeance 2 test. You stopped PvP'ing regularly a LONG time ago. So why all of a sudden you want to see the game the rest of us enjoy taken away? Why aren't you pushing ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil you just claimed to love?

You can disagree with my posts, but please do not lie about me.

The only times I have stopped PvPing regularly was for about 9 months or so when New World launched and the past 4 or 5 months because ESO constantly disconnects me from its server and I'm tired of all the failed attempts to try and fix the issue. As for Vengeance 2, well, I was on a lot more during Vengeance I. You do not know when I play or why. Please stop claiming you do.

And you can also stop lying that I want to see the game people enjoy taken away. I have never said anything on these forums, on Discord, or to anyone else implying that I want to see GH taken away. Just because I supported Vengeance, does not automatically make me someone who wants to see Live PvP taken away. That is purely a product of your fears that ZOS will do that. It isn't based on anything I said.

I have pushed for ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil I loved. For the past ten years I have spent hours upon hours upon hours to writing (long) specific,, coherent, and evidence-based posts in an effort to guide ZOS to make Cyrodiil more fun (for everyone). Since the beginning, I was there telling them about AOE caps, about how organized groups were too strong (even though I played in one), about how the map needed to be used more, about how the rewards needed improvement, about how class balance/nerfs/proc sets were ruining the experience, about how unfriendly Cyrodiil had become to newcomers.

Here's one from 2024 Look at the time and thought I put into that. That you would even insinuate that I want to see Live PvP taken away loudly says you know nothing about me, what I want, or my posting history,

I am critical of ZOS because they deserve to be criticized. What the OP describes was 100% not what GH was before the Vengeance testing. I know because I was regularly PvPing right when Vengeance started. Yep, hop onto a DC character to sit through that prime time que of 4 on a Friday night to see a dead map, when the only action was a cannibalized EP "guild," really just the best dozen players left from multiple older guilds, running amok on the third floor of Warden or Glade because ZOS has no idea how to balance things. This doesn't mean I want them to take away GH. It means I don;t want to be a paying customer and meekly accept them taking my money while they literally do nothing for 5 years to improve Cyrodiil.

I'm not lying. I'm in Cyrodiil every day. I used to see you there every day as well until about 5 years ago. Of course, me not seeing you doesn't mean you weren't there. It just means what I said, that I haven't seen you in Cyrodiil for about 5 years except for the one time we spoke via in game chat during vengeance 2.

At what point did I say anything about you personally? I stated what I've seen in the last 5 years and how it differed from what I saw in the years prior to 2020.

Yes you are.

So why all of a sudden you want to see the game the rest of us enjoy taken away?

That is not true. I do not want to see Live PvP taken away.

You said things about me personally when instead of commenting on my argument, you instead bought up (wrong) information about me and publicly broadcast a desire I supposedly have that is not true.

I honestly don;t know who you are, so I can't even comment about chatting during Vengeance. I do know that during that chat, I did not talk about that Live PvP being taken away because that thought, despite my frustrations, isn't something I believe.. I do what most normal people do when they feel they're aren't getting their money's worth, I play less. I am not a spiteful person who hopes other people's fun is ruined.

Playing less does not mean not playing regularly. I was in two guilds who ran weekly up until last calendar year (both broke up because of frustration with the game, not my decision). You might not have seen my old main "Joy Division" because it is EP and faction locks have prevented me from using that character since 2019 (my guilds were AD and DC). But outside of the New World experiment and the past 5 months ago when ESO literally boots me from the server every ten minutes, I've been in Cyrodiil. You can ask any of the EP and AD guilds, they certainly have seen me quite a bit since 2020 and never fail to introduce themselves and say "Hi" to me with their Rush of Agony spam. If you have been there every day since 2020, then you obviously don't know my alts. Which is fine. I don;t do anything that would make anyone pay attention to who I am: I don;t stream, I don;t t-bag anyone, I dont send hate tells, I'm not an amazing player that people would remember. I'm just there. And sometimes I log off soon after logging in because my experience with Cyrodiil isn't anything like the OP describes. But I have been there. Quite a bit. Being in multiple guilds is regular participation. You specifically said, "You stopped PvP'ing regularly a LONG time ago" using CAPS to emphasize that point. That isn't remotely the same as "I haven;t seen you."

Like I get it. You really don;t like Vengeance. You and a lot of other folks are concerned, fairly I'd say, that ZOS's silence about the future of Vengeance leaves the part of the game that you like up in the air. But just because I supported Vengeance and told ZOS that I enjoyed my time during the first test (noticeably less so the second), does not make me a villain who would actively hope ZOS takes away Grey Host. That is an incorrect assumption. Please take out your frustrations elsewhere. Please stop putting untrue words in my mouth.

Aliniel · 7:19AM

Seems to me like people forgot what Vengeance actually is - A TESTING ENVIRONMENT.

ZOS has no clue on what is causing the performance issues. So, they turned everything off and left the bare minimum to see the impact. All was good! Then they added more and once again kept an eye on the performance. I expect they are logging some stuff or profiling to see the raw numbers - this kind of thing has additional overhead on the performance and cannot be left live all the time. This is why each Vengeance adds things to see what is having most impact on the performance.

Once they detect the major culprits, they can address the issues - optimize, rework, remove, etc.

Of course it's boring. Of course it's a far cry from what live Cyrodiil is. They just need the data from a controlled environment. It's not something that will become the norm.

I agree locking down other Campaigns is a bad move, but ESO has low player numbers and even lower in the PvP. No players = no data. It has to be done.

Moonspawn · 8:08AM

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Eriboss5 wrote: »

Hey everyone,

I wanted to open up a discussion (or maybe just vent a little) about how the new "Vengeance" PvP server has really hurt the classic Greyhost PvP experience. I know ZOS introduced Vengeance to address some long-standing issues—queue times, performance, population balance, etc.—but in the process, it feels like they’ve gutted what made Greyhost such a unique and vibrant part of Cyrodiil.

1. Population Drain

Since Vengeance launched, Greyhost feels like a ghost town. During prime time, we used to have full queues and intense battles around every corner—Keeps constantly flipping, massive coordinated fights, and real strategy. Now? It's barely active. Half the alliances don’t even bother showing up. The competitive edge is gone.

2. Split Community

Instead of fixing the underlying issues with Cyrodiil, they just created a separate instance and split the community. The PvP community in ESO is already niche, and now we had servers cannibalizing the same player base. It’s harder than ever to find organized groups unless you’re already deep into a guild and even then as a GM it is hard to run.

3. Sweaty Meta vs. Casual Fights

Greyhost always had a nice balance of hardcore and casual players. You could run solo, do small-scale fights, or jump into massive zergs. Now, Vengeance has turned into a sweaty, no skill casual zerg PvP fest with all the low-end players flocking there. Meanwhile, Greyhost is left with randoms, disorganized pugs, and barely enough activity to sustain a siege.

4. Loss of Identity

Greyhost had its own identity. The guild rivalries, the politics, the alliances—those took years to build. Vengeance reset all of that. Now it's just another PvP instance, without the history, without the community culture. It doesn’t feel like Cyrodiil anymore—it feels like an eSports lobby.

I’m not saying Vengeance shouldn't exist, but it shouldn't have ever been a question to have its existence in the first place. had to be a better way to integrate it without killing off what made Greyhost special. Thank you ZOS for damaging the hard work and effort ALL FACTIONS have put into creating such a fun, competitive environment just to do "testing" on issues that never seem to be solved. 10+ years and still having trouble with the mail system and why do I have to reload UI to open mail or port to another area? crazy. Maybe we should host a Vengece for PvE and make it so PvErs get NO DROPS. No Gold. No Craftable gear to have a chance to figure that bug out. Sounds like a great idea.

Curious to hear your thoughts—have you stuck with Greyhost? Switched to Vengeance? Is there still hope for the old server, or is it time to come to terms that whoever is creating these "ideas" wants to kill the PvP community.

You are describing Cyrodiil circa 2016.

All of the problems you are attributing to Vengeance have been the consequence of ZOS's increasingly reliance of broken proc sets, heavy favoritism of defense/healing mechanics, hybridization that allowed players to have builds with no weaknesses, and a terrible decision to combine the roles of lead PvP and lead combat under the same team (which led to the neglect of both).

Cyrodiil has been a ghost town for years now. Even ball groups and guilds cannibalize each other because the population is so low. The guilds have left because the balance is terrible and people just got bored literally doing the same thing over and over and over for years: "3-2-1 Deep Fissure, wait for my Rush of Agony proc." Keeps have not consistently flipped ever since ZOS lowered the population caps, making it impossible for the sort of action you are describing.

The sentiment is not wrong; Cyrodiil was once an interesting and more lively place. But those who once enjoyed it left long before Vengeance was ever even an idea. It's not because of Vengeance

I haven't seen you in Cyrodiil in 5 years except the one time we talked during vengeance 2 test. You stopped PvP'ing regularly a LONG time ago. So why all of a sudden you want to see the game the rest of us enjoy taken away? Why aren't you pushing ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil you just claimed to love?

You can disagree with my posts, but please do not lie about me.

The only times I have stopped PvPing regularly was for about 9 months or so when New World launched and the past 4 or 5 months because ESO constantly disconnects me from its server and I'm tired of all the failed attempts to try and fix the issue. As for Vengeance 2, well, I was on a lot more during Vengeance I. You do not know when I play or why. Please stop claiming you do.

And you can also stop lying that I want to see the game people enjoy taken away. I have never said anything on these forums, on Discord, or to anyone else implying that I want to see GH taken away. Just because I supported Vengeance, does not automatically make me someone who wants to see Live PvP taken away. That is purely a product of your fears that ZOS will do that. It isn't based on anything I said.

I have pushed for ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil I loved. For the past ten years I have spent hours upon hours upon hours to writing (long) specific,, coherent, and evidence-based posts in an effort to guide ZOS to make Cyrodiil more fun (for everyone). Since the beginning, I was there telling them about AOE caps, about how organized groups were too strong (even though I played in one), about how the map needed to be used more, about how the rewards needed improvement, about how class balance/nerfs/proc sets were ruining the experience, about how unfriendly Cyrodiil had become to newcomers.

Here's one from 2024 Look at the time and thought I put into that. That you would even insinuate that I want to see Live PvP taken away loudly says you know nothing about me, what I want, or my posting history,

I am critical of ZOS because they deserve to be criticized. What the OP describes was 100% not what GH was before the Vengeance testing. I know because I was regularly PvPing right when Vengeance started. Yep, hop onto a DC character to sit through that prime time que of 4 on a Friday night to see a dead map, when the only action was a cannibalized EP "guild," really just the best dozen players left from multiple older guilds, running amok on the third floor of Warden or Glade because ZOS has no idea how to balance things. This doesn't mean I want them to take away GH. It means I don;t want to be a paying customer and meekly accept them taking my money while they literally do nothing for 5 years to improve Cyrodiil.

Would removing the ability to group up solve Cyrodiil?

No. Removing heal stacking and nerfing pulls would.

There's already the advantage of coordination and numbers, groups dont need infinite heal circles and shield spam, plus the ability to force people into an Ult dump.

Would nerfing pulls and heal stacking be necessary if the ability to group up didn't exist?

Zyaneth_Bal · 11:29AM

Cyrodiil has been the same 100 players for years anyway. It’s had it’s ups and downs but with multiclassing it has become bland and boring as never before, on top of a huge number of other problems as well as no new content in forever. Many people have simply tired and lost interest

Iriidius · 5:04PM

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Forcing a player base that actively pays for your game to be your test dummy and accept something that we did not have since conception of the game is crazy work. Think about that, you have been putting money into this world for literal years, over a decade and they take away every last instance of pvp in cyrodiil to make you do the work they themselves should be doing. Something that the majority of veteran players clearly do not want as it is dead.

The fact that a pve event drains the vengeance population should tell you everything you need to know. This is not for pvpers, it was never for pvpers, and pvers will not sustain it long term... Anyone else arguing against this is coping because they have a chip on their shoulder with pvp and its community.

Two things can be true at the same time however. Yes vengeance is trash, yes subclassing is trash. Both are killing the game and turning it into something it never was, and while people here cope trying to push blame anywhere but Vengeance, the overall eso player count is plummeting, and that can't be denied.

Most players play both PvP and PvE so much that other PvP players have asked me if I really only PvP and the builds Vengeance haters miss so much are in big parts from PvE.
Events and golden pursuits intend to mobilize players who normally not do the content which includs pure PvPer if thy care about event tickets and I lost a lot of time to it that I could have played Vengeance.
Despite event drain and no reward there still were slightly more players in Vengeance than life PvP so drain by event only has to explain why it was not as full as Vengeance test1.
Most of these players prefer beeing test dummys to beeing forced to play in GreyHost with subclassing, ballgroups and carrybuilds.

Iriidius · 5:21PM

LPapirius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Eriboss5 wrote: »

Hey everyone,

I wanted to open up a discussion (or maybe just vent a little) about how the new "Vengeance" PvP server has really hurt the classic Greyhost PvP experience. I know ZOS introduced Vengeance to address some long-standing issues—queue times, performance, population balance, etc.—but in the process, it feels like they’ve gutted what made Greyhost such a unique and vibrant part of Cyrodiil.

1. Population Drain

Since Vengeance launched, Greyhost feels like a ghost town. During prime time, we used to have full queues and intense battles around every corner—Keeps constantly flipping, massive coordinated fights, and real strategy. Now? It's barely active. Half the alliances don’t even bother showing up. The competitive edge is gone.

2. Split Community

Instead of fixing the underlying issues with Cyrodiil, they just created a separate instance and split the community. The PvP community in ESO is already niche, and now we had servers cannibalizing the same player base. It’s harder than ever to find organized groups unless you’re already deep into a guild and even then as a GM it is hard to run.

3. Sweaty Meta vs. Casual Fights

Greyhost always had a nice balance of hardcore and casual players. You could run solo, do small-scale fights, or jump into massive zergs. Now, Vengeance has turned into a sweaty, no skill casual zerg PvP fest with all the low-end players flocking there. Meanwhile, Greyhost is left with randoms, disorganized pugs, and barely enough activity to sustain a siege.

4. Loss of Identity

Greyhost had its own identity. The guild rivalries, the politics, the alliances—those took years to build. Vengeance reset all of that. Now it's just another PvP instance, without the history, without the community culture. It doesn’t feel like Cyrodiil anymore—it feels like an eSports lobby.

I’m not saying Vengeance shouldn't exist, but it shouldn't have ever been a question to have its existence in the first place. had to be a better way to integrate it without killing off what made Greyhost special. Thank you ZOS for damaging the hard work and effort ALL FACTIONS have put into creating such a fun, competitive environment just to do "testing" on issues that never seem to be solved. 10+ years and still having trouble with the mail system and why do I have to reload UI to open mail or port to another area? crazy. Maybe we should host a Vengece for PvE and make it so PvErs get NO DROPS. No Gold. No Craftable gear to have a chance to figure that bug out. Sounds like a great idea.

Curious to hear your thoughts—have you stuck with Greyhost? Switched to Vengeance? Is there still hope for the old server, or is it time to come to terms that whoever is creating these "ideas" wants to kill the PvP community.

You are describing Cyrodiil circa 2016.

All of the problems you are attributing to Vengeance have been the consequence of ZOS's increasingly reliance of broken proc sets, heavy favoritism of defense/healing mechanics, hybridization that allowed players to have builds with no weaknesses, and a terrible decision to combine the roles of lead PvP and lead combat under the same team (which led to the neglect of both).

Cyrodiil has been a ghost town for years now. Even ball groups and guilds cannibalize each other because the population is so low. The guilds have left because the balance is terrible and people just got bored literally doing the same thing over and over and over for years: "3-2-1 Deep Fissure, wait for my Rush of Agony proc." Keeps have not consistently flipped ever since ZOS lowered the population caps, making it impossible for the sort of action you are describing.

The sentiment is not wrong; Cyrodiil was once an interesting and more lively place. But those who once enjoyed it left long before Vengeance was ever even an idea. It's not because of Vengeance

I haven't seen you in Cyrodiil in 5 years except the one time we talked during vengeance 2 test. You stopped PvP'ing regularly a LONG time ago. So why all of a sudden you want to see the game the rest of us enjoy taken away? Why aren't you pushing ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil you just claimed to love?

You can disagree with my posts, but please do not lie about me.

The only times I have stopped PvPing regularly was for about 9 months or so when New World launched and the past 4 or 5 months because ESO constantly disconnects me from its server and I'm tired of all the failed attempts to try and fix the issue. As for Vengeance 2, well, I was on a lot more during Vengeance I. You do not know when I play or why. Please stop claiming you do.

And you can also stop lying that I want to see the game people enjoy taken away. I have never said anything on these forums, on Discord, or to anyone else implying that I want to see GH taken away. Just because I supported Vengeance, does not automatically make me someone who wants to see Live PvP taken away. That is purely a product of your fears that ZOS will do that. It isn't based on anything I said.

I have pushed for ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil I loved. For the past ten years I have spent hours upon hours upon hours to writing (long) specific,, coherent, and evidence-based posts in an effort to guide ZOS to make Cyrodiil more fun (for everyone). Since the beginning, I was there telling them about AOE caps, about how organized groups were too strong (even though I played in one), about how the map needed to be used more, about how the rewards needed improvement, about how class balance/nerfs/proc sets were ruining the experience, about how unfriendly Cyrodiil had become to newcomers.

Here's one from 2024 Look at the time and thought I put into that. That you would even insinuate that I want to see Live PvP taken away loudly says you know nothing about me, what I want, or my posting history,

I am critical of ZOS because they deserve to be criticized. What the OP describes was 100% not what GH was before the Vengeance testing. I know because I was regularly PvPing right when Vengeance started. Yep, hop onto a DC character to sit through that prime time que of 4 on a Friday night to see a dead map, when the only action was a cannibalized EP "guild," really just the best dozen players left from multiple older guilds, running amok on the third floor of Warden or Glade because ZOS has no idea how to balance things. This doesn't mean I want them to take away GH. It means I don;t want to be a paying customer and meekly accept them taking my money while they literally do nothing for 5 years to improve Cyrodiil.

Would removing the ability to group up solve Cyrodiil?

No. Removing heal stacking and nerfing pulls would.

There's already the advantage of coordination and numbers, groups dont need infinite heal circles and shield spam, plus the ability to force people into an Ult dump.

The irony is that vengeance doesn't limit heal and shield stacking. Even with vengeance ZOS isn't doing the thing PvP players have been begging for since circa 2018.

Heal/shield stacking was limited and the only ones complaining pugs get farmed by ballgroups are ballgroups trying to gaslight pugs or ZOS while at the same time complaining their „non ballgroup“ guild (just 12 echoing vigor and 6 regen and roa and groupsets)) doesn’t want to play in Vengeance.
Sure it could have been done better and more specific and complete but it works while on life nothing is done against ballgroups.

fizzybeef · 5:33PM

https://survey.alchemer.com/s3/8460535/ESO-Vengeance-Campaign-Part-3-Feedback

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