Share Your Thoughts on ESO's Classes with Us

Jaimeh · September 28

Dax_Draconis wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

Dax_Draconis wrote: »

Loving my Nightblade that's subclassed with Arcanist and Templar. I haven't had this much fun with my NB in years. The addition of Fatecarver to my stamblade makes the class feel powerful again in more difficult content, and without having to get sweaty doing a complicated rotation. Please don't ruin it now.

How many NB skills are you actively using in that build? Do you just have them there to passively buff the arc skills? Because then it's not really a NB build (and it's one of my issues with subclassing right now: the assassination line has become a passive buff to flail and the arc/templar beams).

Incap, Killer's, and Relentless from the Assassination skill line. I still use my ultimate and switch from using the irrationally hated Arc beam to Killer's Blade when it is time to execute. So, no it isn't a pure NB build, it is a subclassed NB build. But I do pretty much the same on my pure NB but with a more complicated and less effective rotation because I don't have access to anything like the Arc beam with it.

I use KB and merciless, but merciless is just there for the passive buff, I'm not firing the bow as I find it's a loss in an arc beam build, which then means basically only KB is actively used (and that's only in low execute), so that doesn't feel like I'm playing a NB. In fact I'd do better with templar beam in execute, but I keep KB so I can have at least one NB skill that I can actively use.

lydra · September 28

What even is a class at this point? Why is the survey focused on something that doesn't even exist now? Wouldn't it be more helpful to discuss each SKILL LINE and which ones are worth running and which ones aren't?

Right now, I'm routinely seeing Green Balance, Radiating Light, Siphoning, Curative Runeforms and even Daedric Summoning and Grave Lord being requested for healers for optimized end game trials groups. Maybe it would be helpful to do a survey to understand why no one wants to run Living Death or whatever the healer line is supposed to be from DK?

No idea what the DPS or Tank gaps are as a heal main but I'm guessing there's plenty of skill lines no one is using in pretty much any content.

I won't lie, the questions in the survery are written in a way that is completely non-sensical in a post multi classing world that it feels incredibly out of touch and worrysome.

ceruulean · September 29

I wrote an overview about class balance in U45 shortly before subclassing was announced:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vSwQNVZDZygsWfQJ0YmRDtowAav1UcRYRV16Aqva6hBpa5iLmR-yPk8cln8zN7GJbvTQcw0ofZuYEtr/pub

If you notice, most of the classes were relatively balanced except for arcanist and nightblade. Arc was overperforming in every role, and nightblade basically sucked at most things.

disky · September 29

I did the survey, but I just want to say it here as a counter to all the negativity - I don't think there is any issue with class identity. I don't personally care about what makes a class, but I also disagree that classes feel any different or less effective after subclassing. I still play pure classes and subclassed characters and I have fun with both. I'm sure there are high-level players who have specific gripes about certain changes but I'm sure those issues will be addressed individually at some point. Overall, the classes feel fine to me.

I feel like it's important to state, even though I'm sure the community team already knows this very well, that the forums are not the voice of the community at-large. Yes, we have people here who present good points and suggestions, but I don't think this is one of those times. I just think a lot of people are concerned about a big change that needs a bit of time in open testing before all the kinks are fully ironed out.

diamondo · September 29

Well this is the issue sub/multi classing has thrown the game into chaos. This was just thrown into players without from I could see much thought given.

The systems worked well before, classes worked well each class had strengths and weaknesses.That you could exploit I loved I my dot builds and templars were my worst enemies to go up against. Now everyone has picked the best of all worlds. Cyro is full of super tanks that gank. Or rolling ball groups with endless heals and cleanses

I really really hope you can just role it back completely you’re never gonna get the balance you had prior with multi classing.

The closest you will get to this is restrictions and the lines people take- dps, tank, heal lines.
So if you keep your dps line you can only take a tank line from another class then just a heal line from the other class
You will end up with players taking the same skill lines but at least it’ll stop this endless high crit damage meta

For the better players in game that take three dps lines don’t appear to notice any drop off in defence from what I can see.

But sort out storm calling line as from I can see that covers all bases.

Dax_Draconis · 7:34AM

ceruulean wrote: »

I wrote an overview about class balance in U45 shortly before subclassing was announced:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vSwQNVZDZygsWfQJ0YmRDtowAav1UcRYRV16Aqva6hBpa5iLmR-yPk8cln8zN7GJbvTQcw0ofZuYEtr/pub

If you notice, most of the classes were relatively balanced except for arcanist and nightblade. Arc was overperforming in every role, and nightblade basically sucked at most things.

Yes exactly. Which is why I am loving subclassing. It has made my NB useful again and easier to play in more difficult PvE content.

But if the devs want to make pure NB a top meta for damage dealing in PvE then I am all for that too. Doubt they will though.

Apollosipod · 10:10AM

I would have honestly been more on board with subclassing had ZOS put in the effort to make some form of quest to "earn" access to those subclassed skill trees. Something that also better refined or have some lore to the classes which already exist in-game. But we found a lady who had a book that said, "You can be a sorcerer, Harry" and hot damn, now I'm a sorcerer.

I wasn't one of the naysayers for subclassing and enjoy switching things up, but I can't help but make many of my classes feel incredibly similarly because so many old skills need to be have their effectiveness buffed.

DoofusMax · 4:49PM

I hope ZOS gets some useful data from the survey, but I'm absolutely unclear on what data it's expected to elicit from respondents. As a bit of background, surveys and survey methodology were a major component of my master's, so I'm reasonably competent at sussing out what kind of data a question or question series are trying to get at. The class questions, however, just leave me scratching my head (I use Head and Shoulders, so it's not dandruff).

All classes can tank, heal, and DPS depending on which loadout the character uses. If the intent was to gather player perceptions of which classes are better at tanking, healing, or DPS'ing, there are more efficient methods of getting at those perceptions which will generate less statistical noise than the question sequences in the survey and one of those was used in at least one different question (drag-and-drop rankings). The various "I have the necessary tools..." questions could generate some useful insights into how the skills advisor might be improved, though. I believe the general consensus is that the five hand-holding builds in the skills advisor are, shall we say, "less than optimal" for a lot of content and could really use some updating to bring them more in line with current build guides.

It's good to see developer interest in the broader player perceptions. Forum discussions are somewhat akin to echo chambers, so data gathered outside those will come much closer to matching up with what the broader player base thinks.

tomofhyrule · 5:22PM

Here’s another interesting factoid I want to point out.

The survey asked about how the strengths and weaknesses of each class felt without Subclassing, and then asked if Subclassing was able to improve their strengths and mitigate their weaknesses.

That implies that it is intended that the parent classes each have their own strengths and weaknesses and that the point of Subclassing is to give players a way to make up for the inherent weaknesses of their Class.

This is telling me that the idea would be similar to multiclassing in games like D&D: a pure class would be able to be very strong but also very focused, but they can trade that strength to get more versatility. This goes against the role-based “stacking 3x DPS lines should be super stronger than a pure class” idea, unless that build also comes with the durability of wet toilet paper.

Truth be told, I like that concept and would hope they lean into it for balance when they eventually get around to it. But what I don’t agree with is the idea of turning one character into a “I have all the strengths and none of the weaknesses because I’m so perfect!” like we have right now.

Bo0137 · 5:41PM

I have absolutely no problem if class identity is broken or missing. I also don't care about what the meta is. Subclassing is the best update ESO ever had and I'm having a blast playing it!

Finedaible · 5:42PM

Some of those questions were quite vague and ambiguous. They could have used a lot more context about what they were trying to ask us about.

DenverRalphy · 6:07PM

My own personal issue with the survey was that for each class of which you opt to answer questions, it asks about class identity "before subclassing", but it fails to ask the same questions for and about "after subclassing".

For a survey that purports to encompass class identity, it's ignoring half of the equation on that factor.

Joy_Division · 8:07PM

It's nice and all that ZOS is trying to get how we feel about our classes.

But I can help but think it's insane to ask us how effective we feel about the actual class without sub-classing.

Of course a pure class feels bad and just isn't competitive. Hasn't this been made clear over the past 6 months?