People spoke the same thing about WOW every year for over 10 years or so, but the game kept on going. Yes, there were bad times and active sub numbers were low, but far from being a dead game. And it is still going strong.

Same thing for IRL. People have been saying that the end times are upon us since the dawn of mankind, they were so sure that the world will end in 2000, or 2012.. but here we are.

Eso might be having a bit rough time now, many people are afraid of the changes like subclassing (I love it) but we are far from seeing it as dead game or dying one. Times change..

I think Eso could take a step towards esports and introduce dungeon+ or similar system with real ranking list competition. This would lure in new people to the game and offer competition against genre king. After subclassing they could just go all in with changes. My honest opinion..

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if the people who complain that the lack of combat changes these days shows that ZOS aren't listening are the same players who used to complain about the constant combat changes which resulted in ZOS listening and scaling back on the amount and frequency of combat changes?

Probably the same as those who complained overland was too hard then when One Tamriel was released complained it was too easy.

I'm looking forward to more difficult overland content.

Yea this is just going to contribute more to the demographic shift. At some point only the most casual of the casual players will play and they are very often exclusively solo players. Everyone else is being neglected and not listened to. The ultra casual audience is enough to keep ESO alive imo.

Even as of now though, there's not much of a reason to do multiplayer activities. PvP in its current state is not fun for almost anybody. It's very unbalanced and all PvP environments have very little quality PvP in them. As far as PvE goes, it's probably pretty hard to find a group for most things. Even if you do the gameplay is boring. Beam rotations are very slow and easy. Damage is so high that most content is a joke.

This has all been years and years in the making. They have so much stuff to fix, but less gets done each year. I'm still interested in what will happen with Vengeance, but otherwise I don't expect anything anymore.

Tyralbin wrote: »

Just thought a bit more about this and lets look historically at how MMOs have fared.

There are MMOs out there still running that are 10 years older (or more) than ESO.

Some are still supported and others are in permanent maintenance mode.

IMO ESO will still be around for the foreseeable future due to it being the best advert for ESVI.

Even if Microsoft decide that ESO isn't a priority I think it will be around in some form or another. Maybe at some stage they will put it in maintenace mode.

But I cannot see them pulling the plug until ESVI is released and is successful.

Past evidence suggests that if and when ESV1 is released and successful, that will lead to a new influx of players from that game into ESO. I also suspect that many ESO players will maintain their accounts and subscriptions to ESO while playing ESV1 at its launch.

colossalvoids wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Honestly finding it quite comical checking ESO and Path of Exile 1 numbers today, one is recently released an update and an MMO which is meant to be played constantly whilst the other is an arpg with a months old league that people already jumped from into PoE 2 last update a week ago, still a dead arpg league having same exact numbers of players. Both games played primarily outside of steam.

I assume you're basing "the exact same numbers of players" on Steam charts. As you say that both games are played primarily outside of Steam, what are your "outside of Steam" numbers for both games, and the source of those numbers?

Absolutely, after all it's a thread that is based on steam charts as a part of a whole, having most obviously observable statics out there for most games. You are free to think that it's not a representative sample of overall population, there's nothing wrong with it.

I never suggested that, one way or the other, I simply pointed out that you were presumably basing your comments on Steam populations while stating that both games were primarily played outside of Steam, and therefore asking what your corresponding "out of Steam" figures were.

I'm a new player since late May of this year. The first months of playing were amazing and I played A LOT. But since that Whitestrake’s Mayhem event, something died in me. I guess, it made me realize and actually see that this came actually is — an online MMO game. First and foremost. No way around it. That's the crushing reality. I'm not a fan of online games and especially MMOs. I'm a single player TES fan and I've been playing ESO like it's a single player game mixed with some online components.

The illusion was strong until Whitestrake’s Mayhem event. It broke the illusion for me. Traumatized me, even. Since then, I don't ever go to Cyrodiil and don't play battlegrounds anymore. I got really depressed about the game after that event. Fortunately, right after that ZOS dropped ESO plus trial and I was able to dive into new stories and zones. But the illusion was lost and the trauma was real. This is an online game. This is a MMO. No way around it. I'm grieving, no be honest. The game is basically already dead to me. I still have a lot of quests and zones to explore but it's doesn't feel the same way it felt in those first months. And I understand that what I want this game to be, what I want it to become with the future updates, is not what MMO fans want and not what ZOS wants. It will never be the game I want it to be. I will never see the things I want to see. So what are the perspectives for me? I don't see any.

Have not bought this years content.

Watched recent Dev video saying 2025 quality of life wasn't happening because... doing next year's content.

So um what?

That's not encouraging me to ever buy more ESO content.

Better off not putting Devs on blogs if there's nothing to market - or let them write, if it's paragraphs of word soup that end with 'so not happening'.

And maybe offer them early leaving bonus so those that are clearly in pain can just end their contracts -there's only so much plastic smiling the poor things can do.

I can email Chinese devs in Once Human, and they've READ IT and FIXED whatever it was in a patch 48hrs later, (and yes, I get a personalized response and discussion of the bug) and whacked down a new feature from an idea a month later. Free game. ESO gets how much money and still has an 11 yr old Crypts of Heart bug. Once Human is like oh, let's just...make everyone fly and throw in sky buildings -in two weeks! ESO still has the same PvP map. It's just like -what's wrong with this picture? What game is still using the EXACT SAME MAP for a decade? Is no one accountable?

ESO needs to wake up and smell the competition.

colossalvoids wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Honestly finding it quite comical checking ESO and Path of Exile 1 numbers today, one is recently released an update and an MMO which is meant to be played constantly whilst the other is an arpg with a months old league that people already jumped from into PoE 2 last update a week ago, still a dead arpg league having same exact numbers of players. Both games played primarily outside of steam.

I assume you're basing "the exact same numbers of players" on Steam charts. As you say that both games are played primarily outside of Steam, what are your "outside of Steam" numbers for both games, and the source of those numbers?

Absolutely, after all it's a thread that is based on steam charts as a part of a whole, having most obviously observable statics out there for most games. You are free to think that it's not a representative sample of overall population, there's nothing wrong with it.

I never suggested that, one way or the other, I simply pointed out that you were presumably basing your comments on Steam populations while stating that both games were primarily played outside of Steam, and therefore asking what your corresponding "out of Steam" figures were.

Not sure what figures are you so desperate to get there as zenimax keeps it as one of their best kept secrets for various reasons, I'd speculate but that might get redacted. This "primarily out of steam" thing is more of a sign of caution as steam always getting dismissed as an unreliable source, because "we all play from the client" thing going on dedicated forums. Also it was a fact some six or so years ago, when someone on a dev team was asked on a stream (or irl event?), was a long time ago to remember who and where it was. Doubt it's still the case, but we don't have a better recent reference afaik. And if those figures aren't good we're never seeing them.

I'm not desperate at all, I'm simply suggesting that if you're going to compare the player numbers for two games both of which are primarily played outside of Steam then basing that comparison solely on Steam figures renders the comparison pretty meaningless. Somewhat reminiscent of the Blue Stone of Galveston, for Blackadder fans.

Tandor wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Honestly finding it quite comical checking ESO and Path of Exile 1 numbers today, one is recently released an update and an MMO which is meant to be played constantly whilst the other is an arpg with a months old league that people already jumped from into PoE 2 last update a week ago, still a dead arpg league having same exact numbers of players. Both games played primarily outside of steam.

I assume you're basing "the exact same numbers of players" on Steam charts. As you say that both games are played primarily outside of Steam, what are your "outside of Steam" numbers for both games, and the source of those numbers?

Absolutely, after all it's a thread that is based on steam charts as a part of a whole, having most obviously observable statics out there for most games. You are free to think that it's not a representative sample of overall population, there's nothing wrong with it.

I never suggested that, one way or the other, I simply pointed out that you were presumably basing your comments on Steam populations while stating that both games were primarily played outside of Steam, and therefore asking what your corresponding "out of Steam" figures were.

Not sure what figures are you so desperate to get there as zenimax keeps it as one of their best kept secrets for various reasons, I'd speculate but that might get redacted. This "primarily out of steam" thing is more of a sign of caution as steam always getting dismissed as an unreliable source, because "we all play from the client" thing going on dedicated forums. Also it was a fact some six or so years ago, when someone on a dev team was asked on a stream (or irl event?), was a long time ago to remember who and where it was. Doubt it's still the case, but we don't have a better recent reference afaik. And if those figures aren't good we're never seeing them.

I'm not desperate at all, I'm simply suggesting that if you're going to compare the player numbers for two games both of which are primarily played outside of Steam then basing that comparison solely on Steam figures renders the comparison pretty meaningless. Somewhat reminiscent of the Blue Stone of Galveston, for Blackadder fans.

What measure of the player population do you use then? If Steam numbers are not accurate, what resource is more accurate?

Tandor wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Honestly finding it quite comical checking ESO and Path of Exile 1 numbers today, one is recently released an update and an MMO which is meant to be played constantly whilst the other is an arpg with a months old league that people already jumped from into PoE 2 last update a week ago, still a dead arpg league having same exact numbers of players. Both games played primarily outside of steam.

I assume you're basing "the exact same numbers of players" on Steam charts. As you say that both games are played primarily outside of Steam, what are your "outside of Steam" numbers for both games, and the source of those numbers?

Absolutely, after all it's a thread that is based on steam charts as a part of a whole, having most obviously observable statics out there for most games. You are free to think that it's not a representative sample of overall population, there's nothing wrong with it.

I never suggested that, one way or the other, I simply pointed out that you were presumably basing your comments on Steam populations while stating that both games were primarily played outside of Steam, and therefore asking what your corresponding "out of Steam" figures were.

Not sure what figures are you so desperate to get there as zenimax keeps it as one of their best kept secrets for various reasons, I'd speculate but that might get redacted. This "primarily out of steam" thing is more of a sign of caution as steam always getting dismissed as an unreliable source, because "we all play from the client" thing going on dedicated forums. Also it was a fact some six or so years ago, when someone on a dev team was asked on a stream (or irl event?), was a long time ago to remember who and where it was. Doubt it's still the case, but we don't have a better recent reference afaik. And if those figures aren't good we're never seeing them.

I'm not desperate at all, I'm simply suggesting that if you're going to compare the player numbers for two games both of which are primarily played outside of Steam then basing that comparison solely on Steam figures renders the comparison pretty meaningless. Somewhat reminiscent of the Blue Stone of Galveston, for Blackadder fans.

That's a fair suggestion then, still we can only talk about the parts we do aware of and seeing trends there projecting it to overall population. It's partially anecdotal territory but that's what we have on a 30mil or so platform is a pretty good microcosm of what is happening on a more global scale, imo.

Faulgor wrote: »

Really confused about the discussion surrounding ESO lately.

IMO the base game is the best it's ever been. PC EU also seems healthy, I can even find ToT matches quite quickly.

Really looking forward to their plans next year.

Same here! Just ignore them. There are a lot of jaded individuals (trolls) seeking constant attention, just because Zos is not listening to them. It is Zos's game and Zos's vision, not yours. And if they use your feedback/suggestions then great! If not don't wine about it. You know this is the umpteenth thread on the death of ESO and it is sooo tiring and you have zero data to support your argument, plus you do not have access to the real data that Zos has (steam charts is not representative of the life of ESO as it represents a small fraction of the ESO population), so every thing you say is moot. ESO is going to be here fore a really long time, your going to have to pry the keyboard "from my cold dead hands" to get me to stop playing.

ToddIngram wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Honestly finding it quite comical checking ESO and Path of Exile 1 numbers today, one is recently released an update and an MMO which is meant to be played constantly whilst the other is an arpg with a months old league that people already jumped from into PoE 2 last update a week ago, still a dead arpg league having same exact numbers of players. Both games played primarily outside of steam.

I assume you're basing "the exact same numbers of players" on Steam charts. As you say that both games are played primarily outside of Steam, what are your "outside of Steam" numbers for both games, and the source of those numbers?

Absolutely, after all it's a thread that is based on steam charts as a part of a whole, having most obviously observable statics out there for most games. You are free to think that it's not a representative sample of overall population, there's nothing wrong with it.

I never suggested that, one way or the other, I simply pointed out that you were presumably basing your comments on Steam populations while stating that both games were primarily played outside of Steam, and therefore asking what your corresponding "out of Steam" figures were.

Not sure what figures are you so desperate to get there as zenimax keeps it as one of their best kept secrets for various reasons, I'd speculate but that might get redacted. This "primarily out of steam" thing is more of a sign of caution as steam always getting dismissed as an unreliable source, because "we all play from the client" thing going on dedicated forums. Also it was a fact some six or so years ago, when someone on a dev team was asked on a stream (or irl event?), was a long time ago to remember who and where it was. Doubt it's still the case, but we don't have a better recent reference afaik. And if those figures aren't good we're never seeing them.

I'm not desperate at all, I'm simply suggesting that if you're going to compare the player numbers for two games both of which are primarily played outside of Steam then basing that comparison solely on Steam figures renders the comparison pretty meaningless. Somewhat reminiscent of the Blue Stone of Galveston, for Blackadder fans.

What measure of the player population do you use then? If Steam numbers are not accurate, what resource is more accurate?

There isn't one, it's pure guesswork as to what the active population numbers are across the platforms, servers, and launchers. Claims are often made based on specific recorded figures like Steam charts or anecdotal evidence like friends and guild lists, but they're hardly empirical evidence as to the overall playerbase. People may say the overland is very busy but without knowing how many instances there are of each zone, while others may report quiet activity as evidence of a declining population without accepting that there's an event taking place that involves a different activity, or they may report inactivity based on their experience on the live servers while forgetting that there's a major new feature or content attracting a lot of attention on the PTS.

There's a website some players quote from time to time that claims to estimate the number of players in an assortment of games, although it's only ever quoted when its estimate backs the claim being made, and in any event that website displays a massive caveat which basically says the estimates are guesswork in the absence of any official or more reliable numbers.

So imperfect as though it may be, the steam charts are the best, most representative sample we have to go on.

Well, they're the only sample we have to go on, it's down to guesswork and individual opinion as to how good and representative they are outside of Steam.