Siege damage is already ridiculously powerful.

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Siege damage is already ridiculously powerful.

Yes, siege damage is powerful enough to kill or put near-death the vast majority of players who just stand there doing nothing about it. But that’s about where it ends. Players resistances have increased. Average HP on PvP builds has jumped to 35k. Healing is in the stratosphere.

I remember when getting hit with Coldfire was a legitimate death sentence. Now I can outheal it with Vigor. No shields. No ball group heals. Not even a burst heal.

Just Vigor.

And if you’re in a ball group? Flaming Oils might as well be a refreshing spring rain. I’ve literally had two oils pour on me during a siege, and my health bar didn’t move.

On top of that, builds have gotten twice as fast as they were two years ago. Now, when you see that circle pop up under your feet, you can just take two steps and be half a mile away from where it hits, then go right back to whatever you were doing.

I propose doubling the damage siege does against players. Individual people shouldn’t be able to survive getting hit by a sharpened iron pole that’s as big around as your forearm, traveling at highway speeds, and enchanted with an explosion that can burn your soul. Not without extreme measures or a HM Trial final boss fight worth of hps on them, anyway.

Oils....ugh...they do a LOT of damage.

I would like to see some changes, like stuns or some sort of knock back

People don't use the strongest siege equipment most times. If you go up against a group of good defenders with specialty siege, it is a nightmare to get through.

Seige is a good measure of the power creep we have seen in the game at least.

What used to be a death sentence for players is now just an annoyance while they pvdoor

If you combine stacked HoTs, Major and Minor Evasion, a semi-decent health pool, and Siege Shield, then most siege just tickles even now. When a group is smart enough to combo Scattershot + Shock Lancer (for Concussed), AoE hard CC, and fast-firing siege that can adjust quickly like Fire Ballista *on a chokepoint* siege is still potent, but movement is so fast, snares are so irrelevant, and the lag is so bad... ... ...good luck timing your CC just right to fix a ball group on the choke for any amount of time.

Siege isn't OP at all, but it doesn't need a buff either. Competent, coordinated siege use is vanishingly rare. And healing and speed and Snowtreaders are OP.

At any rate, if someone truly hates siege, they can go play BGs or IC.

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Siege damage is already ridiculously powerful.

Yes, siege damage is powerful enough to kill or put near-death the vast majority of players who just stand there doing nothing about it. But that’s about where it ends. Players resistances have increased. Average HP on PvP builds has jumped to 35k. Healing is in the stratosphere.

I remember when getting hit with Coldfire was a legitimate death sentence. Now I can outheal it with Vigor. No shields. No ball group heals. Not even a burst heal.

Just Vigor.

And if you’re in a ball group? Flaming Oils might as well be a refreshing spring rain. I’ve literally had two oils pour on me during a siege, and my health bar didn’t move.

On top of that, builds have gotten twice as fast as they were two years ago. Now, when you see that circle pop up under your feet, you can just take two steps and be half a mile away from where it hits, then go right back to whatever you were doing.

I propose doubling the damage siege does against players. Individual people shouldn’t be able to survive getting hit by a sharpened iron pole that’s as big around as your forearm, traveling at highway speeds, and enchanted with an explosion that can burn your soul. Not without extreme measures or a HM Trial final boss fight worth of hps on them, anyway.

These real world comparisons are silly. You shouldn't survive getting hit in the head with a axe or a fireball, but that's exactly how fantasy games are.

Asking for a "death sentence" just screams a low skill player wanting an "I win" button to defeat more experienced/better players.

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

These real world comparisons are silly. You shouldn't survive getting hit in the head with a axe or a fireball, but that's exactly how fantasy games are.

Asking for a "death sentence" just screams a low skill player wanting an "I win" button to defeat more experienced/better players.

I think you misunderstand my point. I didn’t say I want an instant, unavoidable death sentence. I want increased damage to give more players a chance against ball groups, damage shields, and overhealing. You can still get out of the way. But you should HAVE TO get out of the way. You should be punished for getting hit by the big, obvious AOE, not just stand there and tank it.

Have you ever noticed how many players beg for groups to join in zone chat? It’s because, as it stands, solo players don’t have meaningful ways to contribute to fights in Cyro PvP, unless they’re players with either meta builds, veteran-level skills, or both. As least with more powerful siege, newer players can do SOMETHING when a ball group comes around. They can at least hold off or chase away the ball group or zerg, rather than just melt, get frustrated, and log off.

Because as I said before, you shouldn’t just be able to stand under 2-3 Oils with no siege shield or cleanse, and not only survive, but shrug it off like nothing.

I understand your point. But you are exaggerating and could make that same argument with regular skills and especially ultimates.

I have played in a ball group for years and anyone who has will say the same thing: siege is already very dangerous and lethal and even ball groups cannot sustain themselves under prolonged siege fire and standing under oils for any length of time is a spectacularly terrible idea . You are looking for an instant death sentence because from your perspective what is happening now: ball groups get hit by siege, ball groups move away from siege because it is a lethal threat, is not acceptable. Do you know why it is that ball groups choose to run around on the third floor of a tri-keep? Because the way it is designed, it is pretty much impossible for the defenders to use siege weaponry against them. Do you know why ball groups in outposts go out of their way to the ledges above the postern to kill the one person dropping oils? Because that is by far the most threatening person to them on the map.

The siege advocates will never be satisfied until they have immediate gratification that a solo player can all by themselves with single cheap piece of purchasable inventory will actually kill the most organized and skill groups in Cyrodiil. They've never accepted anything less. Even now with siege so powerful that trying to defend an inner keep is all but impossible when the attackers cover the tiny area on the upper inner with meatbags and coldifres, they still claim it is underpowered when it fundamentally breaks the entire point of a castle, which is supposed to give the defenders an advantage,

I would be more sympathetic to this argument that solo players need powerful anti-ball group measures if they were consistent and made the argument that skills and abilities are also needed to bust groups. This is a huge problem with Vengeance because there is only a limited amount of siege that can be place down, so ultimately the "PvP" that happens isn;t PvP at all, but a few players who can actually do anything useful playing with their inventory (that has nothing to do with PvP) while the rest of us have to twiddle our thumbs.

There are few people in ESO that has used more oil than I have since launch and I know exactly what it can and cannot do. Nobody can stand under 2-3 oils with no siege shield and no cleanse. Some tricky people have figured out there are certain spots that pouring oil does not hit. That won;t be solved by buffing siege. that problem, like ball groups, is an issue that should be resolved directly, not by introducing more broken mechanics to the game.

xFocused wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Siege damage is already ridiculously powerful.

Too bad it’s not powerful at all against ball groups, lol.

Yeah it is. A big enough siege defense at the right time can prevent almost any ballgroup from entering a keep. Nearly every wipe of a ballgroup that doesn't involve another ballgroup happens with the crucial aid of siege damage.

People just seem to expect to hit a ballgroup with one coldfire and get frustrated when it doesn't immediately wipe them.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

These real world comparisons are silly. You shouldn't survive getting hit in the head with a axe or a fireball, but that's exactly how fantasy games are.

Asking for a "death sentence" just screams a low skill player wanting an "I win" button to defeat more experienced/better players.

I think you misunderstand my point. I didn’t say I want an instant, unavoidable death sentence. I want increased damage to give more players a chance against ball groups, damage shields, and overhealing. You can still get out of the way. But you should HAVE TO get out of the way. You should be punished for getting hit by the big, obvious AOE, not just stand there and tank it.

Have you ever noticed how many players beg for groups to join in zone chat? It’s because, as it stands, solo players don’t have meaningful ways to contribute to fights in Cyro PvP, unless they’re players with either meta builds, veteran-level skills, or both. As least with more powerful siege, newer players can do SOMETHING when a ball group comes around. They can at least hold off or chase away the ball group or zerg, rather than just melt, get frustrated, and log off.

Because as I said before, you shouldn’t just be able to stand under 2-3 Oils with no siege shield or cleanse, and not only survive, but shrug it off like nothing.

I understand your point. But you are exaggerating and could make that same argument with regular skills and especially ultimates.

I have played in a ball group for years and anyone who has will say the same thing: siege is already very dangerous and lethal and even ball groups cannot sustain themselves under prolonged siege fire and standing under oils for any length of time is a spectacularly terrible idea . You are looking for an instant death sentence because from your perspective what is happening now: ball groups get hit by siege, ball groups move away from siege because it is a lethal threat, is not acceptable. Do you know why it is that ball groups choose to run around on the third floor of a tri-keep? Because the way it is designed, it is pretty much impossible for the defenders to use siege weaponry against them. Do you know why ball groups in outposts go out of their way to the ledges above the postern to kill the one person dropping oils? Because that is by far the most threatening person to them on the map.

The siege advocates will never be satisfied until they have immediate gratification that a solo player can all by themselves with single cheap piece of purchasable inventory will actually kill the most organized and skill groups in Cyrodiil. They've never accepted anything less. Even now with siege so powerful that trying to defend an inner keep is all but impossible when the attackers cover the tiny area on the upper inner with meatbags and coldifres, they still claim it is underpowered when it fundamentally breaks the entire point of a castle, which is supposed to give the defenders an advantage,

I would be more sympathetic to this argument that solo players need powerful anti-ball group measures if they were consistent and made the argument that skills and abilities are also needed to bust groups. This is a huge problem with Vengeance because there is only a limited amount of siege that can be place down, so ultimately the "PvP" that happens isn;t PvP at all, but a few players who can actually do anything useful playing with their inventory (that has nothing to do with PvP) while the rest of us have to twiddle our thumbs.

There are few people in ESO that has used more oil than I have since launch and I know exactly what it can and cannot do. Nobody can stand under 2-3 oils with no siege shield and no cleanse. Some tricky people have figured out there are certain spots that pouring oil does not hit. That won;t be solved by buffing siege. that problem, like ball groups, is an issue that should be resolved directly, not by introducing more broken mechanics to the game.

Well said and bravo!

xFocused wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Siege damage is already ridiculously powerful.

Too bad it’s not powerful at all against ball groups, lol.

Yeah it is. A big enough siege defense at the right time can prevent almost any ballgroup from entering a keep. Nearly every wipe of a ballgroup that doesn't involve another ballgroup happens with the crucial aid of siege damage.

People just seem to expect to hit a ballgroup with one coldfire and get frustrated when it doesn't immediately wipe them.

Gotta disagree. I’m not expecting to wipe them. However, when you’re hitting them over and over again with cold fires and the healthbars don’t move, that’s a problem

Well, then there isn;t a problem. I can assure you that any group that gets hit over and over with coldifres will indeed have their health bars move. Quite a bit too.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Siege damage is already ridiculously powerful.

Yes, siege damage is powerful enough to kill or put near-death the vast majority of players who just stand there doing nothing about it. But that’s about where it ends. Players resistances have increased. Average HP on PvP builds has jumped to 35k. Healing is in the stratosphere.

I remember when getting hit with Coldfire was a legitimate death sentence. Now I can outheal it with Vigor. No shields. No ball group heals. Not even a burst heal.

Just Vigor.

And if you’re in a ball group? Flaming Oils might as well be a refreshing spring rain. I’ve literally had two oils pour on me during a siege, and my health bar didn’t move.

On top of that, builds have gotten twice as fast as they were two years ago. Now, when you see that circle pop up under your feet, you can just take two steps and be half a mile away from where it hits, then go right back to whatever you were doing.

I propose doubling the damage siege does against players. Individual people shouldn’t be able to survive getting hit by a sharpened iron pole that’s as big around as your forearm, traveling at highway speeds, and enchanted with an explosion that can burn your soul. Not without extreme measures or a HM Trial final boss fight worth of hps on them, anyway.

These real world comparisons are silly. You shouldn't survive getting hit in the head with a axe or a fireball, but that's exactly how fantasy games are.

Asking for a "death sentence" just screams a low skill player wanting an "I win" button to defeat more experienced/better players.

I'll be blunt:

Yes, that should be the bloody point.

If an experienced/better player for some reason doesn't avoid the red and instead stands in it, get wrecked.

Think of things like power weapons in other more sandbox PvP games: EG: Halo's Rocket Launcher.

Experienced players can even leverage these tools too!

Now, should one regular siege pop people? Should players be able to keep a strong siege up indefinitely via repair kits?

Probably not! So go contest some dolmens to grab that power weapon and be mindful when and where you place it.