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• [COMPLETE] Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
Future of Battlegrounds
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NxJoeyD✭✭✭Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »
lolI've been playing Domination weekend for two months.
I don't think so. I'm still partial to the theory they want to force people to play the objective modes. It's better than just doing whatever for no reason.Did ZOS ever say why they keep doing this?
By the way, finally had time to write an intro to the thread.
Zos is doing everything they can to make sure pvp is anything but pvp. If it's not forcing objectives its introducing ridiculous proc sets that do the work for you. They want pvp to be a safe and happy place where intense competition is not allowed and dying is fun for everyone. Its a safe and happy place. They are the Planet Fitness of mmos.
Planet Fitness is a good analogy.
Personally I feel like it’s just lazy developing .. Rather than taking a good look at BG’s now over the course of all the additions and updates and coming up with creative fixes; they instead just opened the floodgates and said “everybody gets everything” .. and that just made it all worse.
You can’t tell me anyone has really looked at mechanics when we have multiple sources of automatic evasion for projectiles but no such opposing mechanic to auto evade melee strikes. I see players constantly awarded with a dodge while standing or sprinting because of this mechanic so you’re basically telling ranged players to go walk off a short pier? … Abilities like Merci Resolve, Toppling Charge, or Assassins Blade have blisteringly fast execution animations and deal bonkers damage, meanwhile a whole array of skills have these lumbering clumsy animations that make their use so clunky in combat and in some cases not even register by the time the skill fully executes.
Mind you this isn’t something that weaving can address; it’s the nature of the ability mechanics not light attacks.
ZoS are making sandwiches with stale bread here from a mechanics standpoint. That’s literally the meat & potatoes of your game, mechanics. They don’t have to be perfect but they need to present as though they’ve had at least one coat of polish on them and that’s just not the case.Thumbless_Bot wrote: »I’ve been in matches where the opposing team had two Templar healers who would simply alternate being in their Ult so it was literally a persistent, constant, state of massive heals. That Ult is both mobile and un-interruptible. .. Nobody is going to counter that, I don’t care how much experience a player has. That’s because there’s no mechanic to address it.
Not true.
Yes, very true.
Practiced Incantation allows the caster to move and also gains immunity to disabling effects while channeling.
The base cost is only 125 and that has multiple methods of cost reduction, so two Templars can EASILY .. let me stress .. EASILY coordinate popping their Ults back & forth. While one is active the other is genning Ult and vice versa, it’s not hard to do.
With the persistent healing their team can defend them and there’s little the opposing team can do to counter here. They can’t interrupt the casting healer and so much damage is being persistently mitigated.
I’ve seen this more than once. Hence why people are suggesting that outward healing be a factor in MRR and I agree.
"Nobody is going to counter that". Simply not true.
I've killed my share of plars in the middle of their ultimate. Focus them and beat their head in. They will either die during or shortly after their ultimate if you have enough damage.
Think about what you just said and go back and re-read my original statement.
There were TWO healers alternating their Ults .. I should specify that it’s Temp Ults but I can’t say that they were Temps, they were just running that Ult.
You can’t “just focus” the one healer when their whole squad is in proximity. And I don’t mean Zerg ball, I mean group play. You can’t just focus the one healer and numerous attacking players all at the same time.
Sure, if you had a healer and maybe one or two squad mates in their vicinity when you encounter them you can manipulate the fight that way; I’ve done that too. But when their whole squad is in the general area and there’s two strong healers alternating ultimates and heals; that’s not going to happen.
They’re going to do the right thing and cover their healers and that’s what they did. And it’s not as though the other healer wasn’t also providing a heal factor to the casting healer as well. Focusing the casting healer in this case isn’t simply going to be enough.
This is why I mean by there’s no counter to that, there’s no mechanic to deal with alternating, persistent, healing ultimates like that. It’s not one it’s two and as you’re trying to deal damage between the entire enemy squad; additional heals, and factor in the games horrible hit detection and you’re going to have a bad time.
The only real “counter” to that scenario is to, yourself, also have that scenario; two equivalent healers on your side to equal the healing factor they’re outputting; otherwise, more of their outgoing damage will land and less of your teams will; it’s basic math.
But even then, that’s not a mechanical counter that’s a big “maybe” that you’ll get two strong healers like that. I actually just played a match earlier that had 3 of them running on the opposite squad doing the same thing; alternating Temp Ults.
Some abilities and even Mythics that are seen to be extremely strong have a negative downside aspect to encourage balance and counterplay. If these abilities had such a feature, only when BS is active, then maybe we’d be in business.
This isn’t pre-subclassing where any one particular strong ability constituted a lower population occurrence in BG matches; now it’s a lot more of the same ability mechanics all in spam as they’re broken in volume.
-"There were TWO healers alternating their Ults"
And? Kill one, then kill the other.
-"You can’t “just focus” the one healer when their whole squad is in proximity."
Yes you can.
-"Sure, if you had a healer and maybe one or two squad mates in their vicinity when you encounter them you can manipulate the fight that way"
Every single bg is different. Situational awareness is a learned skill in bgs. Figure out what you can and can't do then do it... every time. This is me implicitly saying to you what I am trying my best to not say explicitly.
-"The only real “counter” to that scenario is to, yourself, also have that scenario".
Smashing their face in is an option.
-"This isn’t pre-subclassing where any one particular strong ability constituted a lower population occurrence in BG matches"
The damage and healing shift apllies to everyone, not just the other team.
I've tried my best to give you advice though it's obvious you aren't looking for it. That's all I have to say about this.
“Smashing their face in” isn’t advice .. it’s a lame statement based on nothing.
If what you are saying was accurate then this very thread wouldn’t exist and people wouldn’t keep contributing on a very real and consistent problem with BG’s.
Some of us are trying to point out and identify the mechanical problems that have crept up, before & after U47 that’s ultimately going to push players away from the game.
“The same healing and damage shift applies to everyone” .. well, no; not unless you’re suggesting everyone go and build the meta; then, yes, you’d be correct.
Yes, every BG is different and situational awareness is key, but those aren’t the issues at hand here.
Situational awareness and simply focusing tactics aren’t what’s resulting in the widely one sided squash matches here. A lack of proper strategy plays a factor in outcomes, yes, but that’s been a factor in BG’s LONG before now, that’s not new; that’s not what’s changed suddenly and that’s not what we’re talking about.
You can’t tell everyone that they have to go run a particular type of build, in a game built on build diversity, for the express purpose of getting around bad matchmaking & bad mechanics; the population will drop over time.
If the broad player base could just do what you’re suggesting nobody would be here on this thread.0 -
Thumbless_Bot✭✭✭✭✭Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »
lolI've been playing Domination weekend for two months.
I don't think so. I'm still partial to the theory they want to force people to play the objective modes. It's better than just doing whatever for no reason.Did ZOS ever say why they keep doing this?
By the way, finally had time to write an intro to the thread.
Zos is doing everything they can to make sure pvp is anything but pvp. If it's not forcing objectives its introducing ridiculous proc sets that do the work for you. They want pvp to be a safe and happy place where intense competition is not allowed and dying is fun for everyone. Its a safe and happy place. They are the Planet Fitness of mmos.
Planet Fitness is a good analogy.
Personally I feel like it’s just lazy developing .. Rather than taking a good look at BG’s now over the course of all the additions and updates and coming up with creative fixes; they instead just opened the floodgates and said “everybody gets everything” .. and that just made it all worse.
You can’t tell me anyone has really looked at mechanics when we have multiple sources of automatic evasion for projectiles but no such opposing mechanic to auto evade melee strikes. I see players constantly awarded with a dodge while standing or sprinting because of this mechanic so you’re basically telling ranged players to go walk off a short pier? … Abilities like Merci Resolve, Toppling Charge, or Assassins Blade have blisteringly fast execution animations and deal bonkers damage, meanwhile a whole array of skills have these lumbering clumsy animations that make their use so clunky in combat and in some cases not even register by the time the skill fully executes.
Mind you this isn’t something that weaving can address; it’s the nature of the ability mechanics not light attacks.
ZoS are making sandwiches with stale bread here from a mechanics standpoint. That’s literally the meat & potatoes of your game, mechanics. They don’t have to be perfect but they need to present as though they’ve had at least one coat of polish on them and that’s just not the case.Thumbless_Bot wrote: »I’ve been in matches where the opposing team had two Templar healers who would simply alternate being in their Ult so it was literally a persistent, constant, state of massive heals. That Ult is both mobile and un-interruptible. .. Nobody is going to counter that, I don’t care how much experience a player has. That’s because there’s no mechanic to address it.
Not true.
Yes, very true.
Practiced Incantation allows the caster to move and also gains immunity to disabling effects while channeling.
The base cost is only 125 and that has multiple methods of cost reduction, so two Templars can EASILY .. let me stress .. EASILY coordinate popping their Ults back & forth. While one is active the other is genning Ult and vice versa, it’s not hard to do.
With the persistent healing their team can defend them and there’s little the opposing team can do to counter here. They can’t interrupt the casting healer and so much damage is being persistently mitigated.
I’ve seen this more than once. Hence why people are suggesting that outward healing be a factor in MRR and I agree.
"Nobody is going to counter that". Simply not true.
I've killed my share of plars in the middle of their ultimate. Focus them and beat their head in. They will either die during or shortly after their ultimate if you have enough damage.
Think about what you just said and go back and re-read my original statement.
There were TWO healers alternating their Ults .. I should specify that it’s Temp Ults but I can’t say that they were Temps, they were just running that Ult.
You can’t “just focus” the one healer when their whole squad is in proximity. And I don’t mean Zerg ball, I mean group play. You can’t just focus the one healer and numerous attacking players all at the same time.
Sure, if you had a healer and maybe one or two squad mates in their vicinity when you encounter them you can manipulate the fight that way; I’ve done that too. But when their whole squad is in the general area and there’s two strong healers alternating ultimates and heals; that’s not going to happen.
They’re going to do the right thing and cover their healers and that’s what they did. And it’s not as though the other healer wasn’t also providing a heal factor to the casting healer as well. Focusing the casting healer in this case isn’t simply going to be enough.
This is why I mean by there’s no counter to that, there’s no mechanic to deal with alternating, persistent, healing ultimates like that. It’s not one it’s two and as you’re trying to deal damage between the entire enemy squad; additional heals, and factor in the games horrible hit detection and you’re going to have a bad time.
The only real “counter” to that scenario is to, yourself, also have that scenario; two equivalent healers on your side to equal the healing factor they’re outputting; otherwise, more of their outgoing damage will land and less of your teams will; it’s basic math.
But even then, that’s not a mechanical counter that’s a big “maybe” that you’ll get two strong healers like that. I actually just played a match earlier that had 3 of them running on the opposite squad doing the same thing; alternating Temp Ults.
Some abilities and even Mythics that are seen to be extremely strong have a negative downside aspect to encourage balance and counterplay. If these abilities had such a feature, only when BS is active, then maybe we’d be in business.
This isn’t pre-subclassing where any one particular strong ability constituted a lower population occurrence in BG matches; now it’s a lot more of the same ability mechanics all in spam as they’re broken in volume.
-"There were TWO healers alternating their Ults"
And? Kill one, then kill the other.
-"You can’t “just focus” the one healer when their whole squad is in proximity."
Yes you can.
-"Sure, if you had a healer and maybe one or two squad mates in their vicinity when you encounter them you can manipulate the fight that way"
Every single bg is different. Situational awareness is a learned skill in bgs. Figure out what you can and can't do then do it... every time. This is me implicitly saying to you what I am trying my best to not say explicitly.
-"The only real “counter” to that scenario is to, yourself, also have that scenario".
Smashing their face in is an option.
-"This isn’t pre-subclassing where any one particular strong ability constituted a lower population occurrence in BG matches"
The damage and healing shift apllies to everyone, not just the other team.
I've tried my best to give you advice though it's obvious you aren't looking for it. That's all I have to say about this.
“Smashing their face in” isn’t advice .. it’s a lame statement based on nothing.
If what you are saying was accurate then this very thread wouldn’t exist and people wouldn’t keep contributing on a very real and consistent problem with BG’s.
Some of us are trying to point out and identify the mechanical problems that have crept up, before & after U47 that’s ultimately going to push players away from the game.
“The same healing and damage shift applies to everyone” .. well, no; not unless you’re suggesting everyone go and build the meta; then, yes, you’d be correct.
Yes, every BG is different and situational awareness is key, but those aren’t the issues at hand here.
Situational awareness and simply focusing tactics aren’t what’s resulting in the widely one sided squash matches here. A lack of proper strategy plays a factor in outcomes, yes, but that’s been a factor in BG’s LONG before now, that’s not new; that’s not what’s changed suddenly and that’s not what we’re talking about.
You can’t tell everyone that they have to go run a particular type of build, in a game built on build diversity, for the express purpose of getting around bad matchmaking & bad mechanics; the population will drop over time.
If the broad player base could just do what you’re suggesting nobody would be here on this thread.
There is so mich wrong with this it is obviously not worth continuing to engage. Take care.Edited by Thumbless_Bot on September 13, 2025 12:37AM0 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »
lolI've been playing Domination weekend for two months.
I don't think so. I'm still partial to the theory they want to force people to play the objective modes. It's better than just doing whatever for no reason.Did ZOS ever say why they keep doing this?
By the way, finally had time to write an intro to the thread.
Zos is doing everything they can to make sure pvp is anything but pvp. If it's not forcing objectives its introducing ridiculous proc sets that do the work for you. They want pvp to be a safe and happy place where intense competition is not allowed and dying is fun for everyone. Its a safe and happy place. They are the Planet Fitness of mmos.
Planet Fitness is a good analogy.
Personally I feel like it’s just lazy developing .. Rather than taking a good look at BG’s now over the course of all the additions and updates and coming up with creative fixes; they instead just opened the floodgates and said “everybody gets everything” .. and that just made it all worse.
You can’t tell me anyone has really looked at mechanics when we have multiple sources of automatic evasion for projectiles but no such opposing mechanic to auto evade melee strikes. I see players constantly awarded with a dodge while standing or sprinting because of this mechanic so you’re basically telling ranged players to go walk off a short pier? … Abilities like Merci Resolve, Toppling Charge, or Assassins Blade have blisteringly fast execution animations and deal bonkers damage, meanwhile a whole array of skills have these lumbering clumsy animations that make their use so clunky in combat and in some cases not even register by the time the skill fully executes.
Mind you this isn’t something that weaving can address; it’s the nature of the ability mechanics not light attacks.
ZoS are making sandwiches with stale bread here from a mechanics standpoint. That’s literally the meat & potatoes of your game, mechanics. They don’t have to be perfect but they need to present as though they’ve had at least one coat of polish on them and that’s just not the case.Thumbless_Bot wrote: »I’ve been in matches where the opposing team had two Templar healers who would simply alternate being in their Ult so it was literally a persistent, constant, state of massive heals. That Ult is both mobile and un-interruptible. .. Nobody is going to counter that, I don’t care how much experience a player has. That’s because there’s no mechanic to address it.
Not true.
Yes, very true.
Practiced Incantation allows the caster to move and also gains immunity to disabling effects while channeling.
The base cost is only 125 and that has multiple methods of cost reduction, so two Templars can EASILY .. let me stress .. EASILY coordinate popping their Ults back & forth. While one is active the other is genning Ult and vice versa, it’s not hard to do.
With the persistent healing their team can defend them and there’s little the opposing team can do to counter here. They can’t interrupt the casting healer and so much damage is being persistently mitigated.
I’ve seen this more than once. Hence why people are suggesting that outward healing be a factor in MRR and I agree.
"Nobody is going to counter that". Simply not true.
I've killed my share of plars in the middle of their ultimate. Focus them and beat their head in. They will either die during or shortly after their ultimate if you have enough damage.
Think about what you just said and go back and re-read my original statement.
There were TWO healers alternating their Ults .. I should specify that it’s Temp Ults but I can’t say that they were Temps, they were just running that Ult.
You can’t “just focus” the one healer when their whole squad is in proximity. And I don’t mean Zerg ball, I mean group play. You can’t just focus the one healer and numerous attacking players all at the same time.
Sure, if you had a healer and maybe one or two squad mates in their vicinity when you encounter them you can manipulate the fight that way; I’ve done that too. But when their whole squad is in the general area and there’s two strong healers alternating ultimates and heals; that’s not going to happen.
They’re going to do the right thing and cover their healers and that’s what they did. And it’s not as though the other healer wasn’t also providing a heal factor to the casting healer as well. Focusing the casting healer in this case isn’t simply going to be enough.
This is why I mean by there’s no counter to that, there’s no mechanic to deal with alternating, persistent, healing ultimates like that. It’s not one it’s two and as you’re trying to deal damage between the entire enemy squad; additional heals, and factor in the games horrible hit detection and you’re going to have a bad time.
The only real “counter” to that scenario is to, yourself, also have that scenario; two equivalent healers on your side to equal the healing factor they’re outputting; otherwise, more of their outgoing damage will land and less of your teams will; it’s basic math.
But even then, that’s not a mechanical counter that’s a big “maybe” that you’ll get two strong healers like that. I actually just played a match earlier that had 3 of them running on the opposite squad doing the same thing; alternating Temp Ults.
Some abilities and even Mythics that are seen to be extremely strong have a negative downside aspect to encourage balance and counterplay. If these abilities had such a feature, only when BS is active, then maybe we’d be in business.
This isn’t pre-subclassing where any one particular strong ability constituted a lower population occurrence in BG matches; now it’s a lot more of the same ability mechanics all in spam as they’re broken in volume.
-"There were TWO healers alternating their Ults"
And? Kill one, then kill the other.
-"You can’t “just focus” the one healer when their whole squad is in proximity."
Yes you can.
-"Sure, if you had a healer and maybe one or two squad mates in their vicinity when you encounter them you can manipulate the fight that way"
Every single bg is different. Situational awareness is a learned skill in bgs. Figure out what you can and can't do then do it... every time. This is me implicitly saying to you what I am trying my best to not say explicitly.
-"The only real “counter” to that scenario is to, yourself, also have that scenario".
Smashing their face in is an option.
-"This isn’t pre-subclassing where any one particular strong ability constituted a lower population occurrence in BG matches"
The damage and healing shift apllies to everyone, not just the other team.
I've tried my best to give you advice though it's obvious you aren't looking for it. That's all I have to say about this.
“Smashing their face in” isn’t advice .. it’s a lame statement based on nothing.
If what you are saying was accurate then this very thread wouldn’t exist and people wouldn’t keep contributing on a very real and consistent problem with BG’s.
Some of us are trying to point out and identify the mechanical problems that have crept up, before & after U47 that’s ultimately going to push players away from the game.
“The same healing and damage shift applies to everyone” .. well, no; not unless you’re suggesting everyone go and build the meta; then, yes, you’d be correct.
Yes, every BG is different and situational awareness is key, but those aren’t the issues at hand here.
Situational awareness and simply focusing tactics aren’t what’s resulting in the widely one sided squash matches here. A lack of proper strategy plays a factor in outcomes, yes, but that’s been a factor in BG’s LONG before now, that’s not new; that’s not what’s changed suddenly and that’s not what we’re talking about.
You can’t tell everyone that they have to go run a particular type of build, in a game built on build diversity, for the express purpose of getting around bad matchmaking & bad mechanics; the population will drop over time.
If the broad player base could just do what you’re suggesting nobody would be here on this thread.
There is so mich wrong with this it is obviously not worth continuing to engage. Take care.
Look, if we’re seeing BG matches where one side has multiple healers dishing out 1MM + in heals, each, while the other team has no healing, you really don’t think there’s a problem or imbalance there?
If it was just a matter of stopping the heals, then that’s what players would do, just stop the heals.
You, yourself admitted healing is busted, I agree. I’m saying it should be factored into MRR. Healing is busted and that goes to mechanics. Unless the Devs are going to address those mechanics (they’re not) then factoring healing output into MRR goes a long way to curbing the key imbalance that’s causing spawn caps and one sided matches.Edited by NxJoeyD on September 13, 2025 9:51AM0 -
Haki_7✭✭✭The 25k damage must have been from my pet, because I didn't see a single enemy player for the entire duration of the match. I suspect there's something else going on with Chaosball. Something beyond just the influence of the inherent flaws of the two-sided format.
Edited by Haki_7 on September 13, 2025 6:40PM0 -
Haki_7✭✭✭
Assuming Zenimax ever decides to spend the time (maybe two weeks?) it would take to revamp all of the three-sided objective modes, and we're granted these incredible gifts:
Chaosball >> Deathmatch with chaosball.
Crazy King >> Deathmatch with flags.
Domination >> Deathmatch all around, probably the closest we can get to a free for all.
Capture the Relic >> Deathmatch with training wheels.
@Haki_7, two weeks or more?
If they are informed about all the cheesy spots and that coliseum map is removed from the Chaosball rotation, maybe. No idea how long it would take to sort out CTF though.
coliseum map?
The arena variant of Istirus Outpost
Why? I rather like the map for Deathmatch.
More cheesy spots there than in all of the other maps combined.0 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭✭Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »
lolI've been playing Domination weekend for two months.
I don't think so. I'm still partial to the theory they want to force people to play the objective modes. It's better than just doing whatever for no reason.Did ZOS ever say why they keep doing this?
By the way, finally had time to write an intro to the thread.
Zos is doing everything they can to make sure pvp is anything but pvp. If it's not forcing objectives its introducing ridiculous proc sets that do the work for you. They want pvp to be a safe and happy place where intense competition is not allowed and dying is fun for everyone. Its a safe and happy place. They are the Planet Fitness of mmos.
Planet Fitness is a good analogy.
Personally I feel like it’s just lazy developing .. Rather than taking a good look at BG’s now over the course of all the additions and updates and coming up with creative fixes; they instead just opened the floodgates and said “everybody gets everything” .. and that just made it all worse.
You can’t tell me anyone has really looked at mechanics when we have multiple sources of automatic evasion for projectiles but no such opposing mechanic to auto evade melee strikes. I see players constantly awarded with a dodge while standing or sprinting because of this mechanic so you’re basically telling ranged players to go walk off a short pier? … Abilities like Merci Resolve, Toppling Charge, or Assassins Blade have blisteringly fast execution animations and deal bonkers damage, meanwhile a whole array of skills have these lumbering clumsy animations that make their use so clunky in combat and in some cases not even register by the time the skill fully executes.
Mind you this isn’t something that weaving can address; it’s the nature of the ability mechanics not light attacks.
ZoS are making sandwiches with stale bread here from a mechanics standpoint. That’s literally the meat & potatoes of your game, mechanics. They don’t have to be perfect but they need to present as though they’ve had at least one coat of polish on them and that’s just not the case.Thumbless_Bot wrote: »I’ve been in matches where the opposing team had two Templar healers who would simply alternate being in their Ult so it was literally a persistent, constant, state of massive heals. That Ult is both mobile and un-interruptible. .. Nobody is going to counter that, I don’t care how much experience a player has. That’s because there’s no mechanic to address it.
Not true.
Yes, very true.
Practiced Incantation allows the caster to move and also gains immunity to disabling effects while channeling.
The base cost is only 125 and that has multiple methods of cost reduction, so two Templars can EASILY .. let me stress .. EASILY coordinate popping their Ults back & forth. While one is active the other is genning Ult and vice versa, it’s not hard to do.
With the persistent healing their team can defend them and there’s little the opposing team can do to counter here. They can’t interrupt the casting healer and so much damage is being persistently mitigated.
I’ve seen this more than once. Hence why people are suggesting that outward healing be a factor in MRR and I agree.
"Nobody is going to counter that". Simply not true.
I've killed my share of plars in the middle of their ultimate. Focus them and beat their head in. They will either die during or shortly after their ultimate if you have enough damage.
Think about what you just said and go back and re-read my original statement.
There were TWO healers alternating their Ults .. I should specify that it’s Temp Ults but I can’t say that they were Temps, they were just running that Ult.
You can’t “just focus” the one healer when their whole squad is in proximity. And I don’t mean Zerg ball, I mean group play. You can’t just focus the one healer and numerous attacking players all at the same time.
Sure, if you had a healer and maybe one or two squad mates in their vicinity when you encounter them you can manipulate the fight that way; I’ve done that too. But when their whole squad is in the general area and there’s two strong healers alternating ultimates and heals; that’s not going to happen.
They’re going to do the right thing and cover their healers and that’s what they did. And it’s not as though the other healer wasn’t also providing a heal factor to the casting healer as well. Focusing the casting healer in this case isn’t simply going to be enough.
This is why I mean by there’s no counter to that, there’s no mechanic to deal with alternating, persistent, healing ultimates like that. It’s not one it’s two and as you’re trying to deal damage between the entire enemy squad; additional heals, and factor in the games horrible hit detection and you’re going to have a bad time.
The only real “counter” to that scenario is to, yourself, also have that scenario; two equivalent healers on your side to equal the healing factor they’re outputting; otherwise, more of their outgoing damage will land and less of your teams will; it’s basic math.
But even then, that’s not a mechanical counter that’s a big “maybe” that you’ll get two strong healers like that. I actually just played a match earlier that had 3 of them running on the opposite squad doing the same thing; alternating Temp Ults.
Some abilities and even Mythics that are seen to be extremely strong have a negative downside aspect to encourage balance and counterplay. If these abilities had such a feature, only when BS is active, then maybe we’d be in business.
This isn’t pre-subclassing where any one particular strong ability constituted a lower population occurrence in BG matches; now it’s a lot more of the same ability mechanics all in spam as they’re broken in volume.
-"There were TWO healers alternating their Ults"
And? Kill one, then kill the other.
-"You can’t “just focus” the one healer when their whole squad is in proximity."
Yes you can.
-"Sure, if you had a healer and maybe one or two squad mates in their vicinity when you encounter them you can manipulate the fight that way"
Every single bg is different. Situational awareness is a learned skill in bgs. Figure out what you can and can't do then do it... every time. This is me implicitly saying to you what I am trying my best to not say explicitly.
-"The only real “counter” to that scenario is to, yourself, also have that scenario".
Smashing their face in is an option.
-"This isn’t pre-subclassing where any one particular strong ability constituted a lower population occurrence in BG matches"
The damage and healing shift apllies to everyone, not just the other team.
I've tried my best to give you advice though it's obvious you aren't looking for it. That's all I have to say about this.
“Smashing their face in” isn’t advice .. it’s a lame statement based on nothing.
If what you are saying was accurate then this very thread wouldn’t exist and people wouldn’t keep contributing on a very real and consistent problem with BG’s.
Some of us are trying to point out and identify the mechanical problems that have crept up, before & after U47 that’s ultimately going to push players away from the game.
“The same healing and damage shift applies to everyone” .. well, no; not unless you’re suggesting everyone go and build the meta; then, yes, you’d be correct.
Yes, every BG is different and situational awareness is key, but those aren’t the issues at hand here.
Situational awareness and simply focusing tactics aren’t what’s resulting in the widely one sided squash matches here. A lack of proper strategy plays a factor in outcomes, yes, but that’s been a factor in BG’s LONG before now, that’s not new; that’s not what’s changed suddenly and that’s not what we’re talking about.
You can’t tell everyone that they have to go run a particular type of build, in a game built on build diversity, for the express purpose of getting around bad matchmaking & bad mechanics; the population will drop over time.
If the broad player base could just do what you’re suggesting nobody would be here on this thread.
There is so mich wrong with this it is obviously not worth continuing to engage. Take care.
Look, if we’re seeing BG matches where one side has multiple healers dishing out 1MM + in heals, each, while the other team has no healing, you really don’t think there’s a problem or imbalance there?
If it was just a matter of stopping the heals, then that’s what players would do, just stop the heals.
You, yourself admitted healing is busted, I agree. I’m saying it should be factored into MRR. Healing is busted and that goes to mechanics. Unless the Devs are going to address those mechanics (they’re not) then factoring healing output into MRR goes a long way to curbing the key imbalance that’s causing spawn caps and one sided matches.
How can healing be nerfed in the middle of a crit burst meta the likes of which we haven't seen in a generation?Can you help solve any of the FOUR critical flaws of Two-Teams BGs ?
Looking for feedback on How to fix the Three-Teams objective modes0 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »
lolI've been playing Domination weekend for two months.
I don't think so. I'm still partial to the theory they want to force people to play the objective modes. It's better than just doing whatever for no reason.Did ZOS ever say why they keep doing this?
By the way, finally had time to write an intro to the thread.
Zos is doing everything they can to make sure pvp is anything but pvp. If it's not forcing objectives its introducing ridiculous proc sets that do the work for you. They want pvp to be a safe and happy place where intense competition is not allowed and dying is fun for everyone. Its a safe and happy place. They are the Planet Fitness of mmos.
Planet Fitness is a good analogy.
Personally I feel like it’s just lazy developing .. Rather than taking a good look at BG’s now over the course of all the additions and updates and coming up with creative fixes; they instead just opened the floodgates and said “everybody gets everything” .. and that just made it all worse.
You can’t tell me anyone has really looked at mechanics when we have multiple sources of automatic evasion for projectiles but no such opposing mechanic to auto evade melee strikes. I see players constantly awarded with a dodge while standing or sprinting because of this mechanic so you’re basically telling ranged players to go walk off a short pier? … Abilities like Merci Resolve, Toppling Charge, or Assassins Blade have blisteringly fast execution animations and deal bonkers damage, meanwhile a whole array of skills have these lumbering clumsy animations that make their use so clunky in combat and in some cases not even register by the time the skill fully executes.
Mind you this isn’t something that weaving can address; it’s the nature of the ability mechanics not light attacks.
ZoS are making sandwiches with stale bread here from a mechanics standpoint. That’s literally the meat & potatoes of your game, mechanics. They don’t have to be perfect but they need to present as though they’ve had at least one coat of polish on them and that’s just not the case.Thumbless_Bot wrote: »I’ve been in matches where the opposing team had two Templar healers who would simply alternate being in their Ult so it was literally a persistent, constant, state of massive heals. That Ult is both mobile and un-interruptible. .. Nobody is going to counter that, I don’t care how much experience a player has. That’s because there’s no mechanic to address it.
Not true.
Yes, very true.
Practiced Incantation allows the caster to move and also gains immunity to disabling effects while channeling.
The base cost is only 125 and that has multiple methods of cost reduction, so two Templars can EASILY .. let me stress .. EASILY coordinate popping their Ults back & forth. While one is active the other is genning Ult and vice versa, it’s not hard to do.
With the persistent healing their team can defend them and there’s little the opposing team can do to counter here. They can’t interrupt the casting healer and so much damage is being persistently mitigated.
I’ve seen this more than once. Hence why people are suggesting that outward healing be a factor in MRR and I agree.
"Nobody is going to counter that". Simply not true.
I've killed my share of plars in the middle of their ultimate. Focus them and beat their head in. They will either die during or shortly after their ultimate if you have enough damage.
Think about what you just said and go back and re-read my original statement.
There were TWO healers alternating their Ults .. I should specify that it’s Temp Ults but I can’t say that they were Temps, they were just running that Ult.
You can’t “just focus” the one healer when their whole squad is in proximity. And I don’t mean Zerg ball, I mean group play. You can’t just focus the one healer and numerous attacking players all at the same time.
Sure, if you had a healer and maybe one or two squad mates in their vicinity when you encounter them you can manipulate the fight that way; I’ve done that too. But when their whole squad is in the general area and there’s two strong healers alternating ultimates and heals; that’s not going to happen.
They’re going to do the right thing and cover their healers and that’s what they did. And it’s not as though the other healer wasn’t also providing a heal factor to the casting healer as well. Focusing the casting healer in this case isn’t simply going to be enough.
This is why I mean by there’s no counter to that, there’s no mechanic to deal with alternating, persistent, healing ultimates like that. It’s not one it’s two and as you’re trying to deal damage between the entire enemy squad; additional heals, and factor in the games horrible hit detection and you’re going to have a bad time.
The only real “counter” to that scenario is to, yourself, also have that scenario; two equivalent healers on your side to equal the healing factor they’re outputting; otherwise, more of their outgoing damage will land and less of your teams will; it’s basic math.
But even then, that’s not a mechanical counter that’s a big “maybe” that you’ll get two strong healers like that. I actually just played a match earlier that had 3 of them running on the opposite squad doing the same thing; alternating Temp Ults.
Some abilities and even Mythics that are seen to be extremely strong have a negative downside aspect to encourage balance and counterplay. If these abilities had such a feature, only when BS is active, then maybe we’d be in business.
This isn’t pre-subclassing where any one particular strong ability constituted a lower population occurrence in BG matches; now it’s a lot more of the same ability mechanics all in spam as they’re broken in volume.
-"There were TWO healers alternating their Ults"
And? Kill one, then kill the other.
-"You can’t “just focus” the one healer when their whole squad is in proximity."
Yes you can.
-"Sure, if you had a healer and maybe one or two squad mates in their vicinity when you encounter them you can manipulate the fight that way"
Every single bg is different. Situational awareness is a learned skill in bgs. Figure out what you can and can't do then do it... every time. This is me implicitly saying to you what I am trying my best to not say explicitly.
-"The only real “counter” to that scenario is to, yourself, also have that scenario".
Smashing their face in is an option.
-"This isn’t pre-subclassing where any one particular strong ability constituted a lower population occurrence in BG matches"
The damage and healing shift apllies to everyone, not just the other team.
I've tried my best to give you advice though it's obvious you aren't looking for it. That's all I have to say about this.
“Smashing their face in” isn’t advice .. it’s a lame statement based on nothing.
If what you are saying was accurate then this very thread wouldn’t exist and people wouldn’t keep contributing on a very real and consistent problem with BG’s.
Some of us are trying to point out and identify the mechanical problems that have crept up, before & after U47 that’s ultimately going to push players away from the game.
“The same healing and damage shift applies to everyone” .. well, no; not unless you’re suggesting everyone go and build the meta; then, yes, you’d be correct.
Yes, every BG is different and situational awareness is key, but those aren’t the issues at hand here.
Situational awareness and simply focusing tactics aren’t what’s resulting in the widely one sided squash matches here. A lack of proper strategy plays a factor in outcomes, yes, but that’s been a factor in BG’s LONG before now, that’s not new; that’s not what’s changed suddenly and that’s not what we’re talking about.
You can’t tell everyone that they have to go run a particular type of build, in a game built on build diversity, for the express purpose of getting around bad matchmaking & bad mechanics; the population will drop over time.
If the broad player base could just do what you’re suggesting nobody would be here on this thread.
There is so mich wrong with this it is obviously not worth continuing to engage. Take care.
Look, if we’re seeing BG matches where one side has multiple healers dishing out 1MM + in heals, each, while the other team has no healing, you really don’t think there’s a problem or imbalance there?
If it was just a matter of stopping the heals, then that’s what players would do, just stop the heals.
You, yourself admitted healing is busted, I agree. I’m saying it should be factored into MRR. Healing is busted and that goes to mechanics. Unless the Devs are going to address those mechanics (they’re not) then factoring healing output into MRR goes a long way to curbing the key imbalance that’s causing spawn caps and one sided matches.
How can healing be nerfed in the middle of a crit burst meta the likes of which we haven't seen in a generation?
Who said nerf? I said incorporate into MRR so as to try and reduce the degree of one sided healing imbalances in current BG matches.
If you want to talk about “adjusting” there’s definitely ways this can be done; other games have implemented balancing mechanics, that’s nothing new.
Again, IMO a lot of this is mechanical. Access to various mechanics is simply far too low of a cost proposition. There are ways to approach that but it’s a rabbit hole and albiet possible; if we want to talk about what can be done in the short term to immediately shore up BG’s, then including an outgoing healing factor in MRR is a start.0 -
Haki_7✭✭✭
By the way, finally had time to write an intro to the thread.
The thread is evolving 😎
I like the first sentence: ''Fun and unpredictable matches are the one thing that can draw in newcomers to become interested in PVP itself (not just the daily).''
Was it even possible for three-sided matches to be simultaneously unpredictable AND boring? I know 8v8 can be:
The target order never left the squishiest players😪.Edited by Haki_7 on September 15, 2025 4:26PM0 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭✭
By the way, finally had time to write an intro to the thread.
The thread is evolving 😎
I like the first sentence: ''Fun and unpredictable matches are the one thing that can draw in newcomers to become interested in PVP itself (not just the daily).''
Was it even possible for three-sided matches to be simultaneously unpredictable AND boring? I know 8v8 can be:
The target order never left the squishiest players😪.
That's what a balanced 8v8 Capture the Relic looks like: The exact same fight, in exact the same place, against the same people, under the exact same circumstances, for 15 minutes. I'm sorry.Edited by Moonspawn on September 15, 2025 9:37PMCan you help solve any of the FOUR critical flaws of Two-Teams BGs ?
Looking for feedback on How to fix the Three-Teams objective modes0 -
Haki_7✭✭✭
By the way, finally had time to write an intro to the thread.
The thread is evolving 😎
I like the first sentence: ''Fun and unpredictable matches are the one thing that can draw in newcomers to become interested in PVP itself (not just the daily).''
Was it even possible for three-sided matches to be simultaneously unpredictable AND boring? I know 8v8 can be:
The target order never left the squishiest players😪.
That's what a balanced 8v8 Capture the Relic looks like: The exact same fight, in exact the same place, against the same people, under the exact same circumstances, for 15 minutes. I'm sorry.
Pit Daemons: 1,2,3,5
Fire Drakes: 2,3,4
These are the seven players that could have been assigned to teams of newcomers in three-teams BGs to create unpredictable matches, fun for everyone, regardless of skill level.
Doing the same thing in two-sided? Disaster every time.
I miss the short queue times of the real BGs.
Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 93: Waiting 20 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)
https://youtu.be/69OEYLSc3mA
Edited by Haki_7 on September 15, 2025 10:52PM0 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭✭Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »
lolI've been playing Domination weekend for two months.
I don't think so. I'm still partial to the theory they want to force people to play the objective modes. It's better than just doing whatever for no reason.Did ZOS ever say why they keep doing this?
By the way, finally had time to write an intro to the thread.
Zos is doing everything they can to make sure pvp is anything but pvp. If it's not forcing objectives its introducing ridiculous proc sets that do the work for you. They want pvp to be a safe and happy place where intense competition is not allowed and dying is fun for everyone. Its a safe and happy place. They are the Planet Fitness of mmos.
Planet Fitness is a good analogy.
Personally I feel like it’s just lazy developing .. Rather than taking a good look at BG’s now over the course of all the additions and updates and coming up with creative fixes; they instead just opened the floodgates and said “everybody gets everything” .. and that just made it all worse.
You can’t tell me anyone has really looked at mechanics when we have multiple sources of automatic evasion for projectiles but no such opposing mechanic to auto evade melee strikes. I see players constantly awarded with a dodge while standing or sprinting because of this mechanic so you’re basically telling ranged players to go walk off a short pier? … Abilities like Merci Resolve, Toppling Charge, or Assassins Blade have blisteringly fast execution animations and deal bonkers damage, meanwhile a whole array of skills have these lumbering clumsy animations that make their use so clunky in combat and in some cases not even register by the time the skill fully executes.
Mind you this isn’t something that weaving can address; it’s the nature of the ability mechanics not light attacks.
ZoS are making sandwiches with stale bread here from a mechanics standpoint. That’s literally the meat & potatoes of your game, mechanics. They don’t have to be perfect but they need to present as though they’ve had at least one coat of polish on them and that’s just not the case.Thumbless_Bot wrote: »I’ve been in matches where the opposing team had two Templar healers who would simply alternate being in their Ult so it was literally a persistent, constant, state of massive heals. That Ult is both mobile and un-interruptible. .. Nobody is going to counter that, I don’t care how much experience a player has. That’s because there’s no mechanic to address it.
Not true.
Yes, very true.
Practiced Incantation allows the caster to move and also gains immunity to disabling effects while channeling.
The base cost is only 125 and that has multiple methods of cost reduction, so two Templars can EASILY .. let me stress .. EASILY coordinate popping their Ults back & forth. While one is active the other is genning Ult and vice versa, it’s not hard to do.
With the persistent healing their team can defend them and there’s little the opposing team can do to counter here. They can’t interrupt the casting healer and so much damage is being persistently mitigated.
I’ve seen this more than once. Hence why people are suggesting that outward healing be a factor in MRR and I agree.
"Nobody is going to counter that". Simply not true.
I've killed my share of plars in the middle of their ultimate. Focus them and beat their head in. They will either die during or shortly after their ultimate if you have enough damage.
Think about what you just said and go back and re-read my original statement.
There were TWO healers alternating their Ults .. I should specify that it’s Temp Ults but I can’t say that they were Temps, they were just running that Ult.
You can’t “just focus” the one healer when their whole squad is in proximity. And I don’t mean Zerg ball, I mean group play. You can’t just focus the one healer and numerous attacking players all at the same time.
Sure, if you had a healer and maybe one or two squad mates in their vicinity when you encounter them you can manipulate the fight that way; I’ve done that too. But when their whole squad is in the general area and there’s two strong healers alternating ultimates and heals; that’s not going to happen.
They’re going to do the right thing and cover their healers and that’s what they did. And it’s not as though the other healer wasn’t also providing a heal factor to the casting healer as well. Focusing the casting healer in this case isn’t simply going to be enough.
This is why I mean by there’s no counter to that, there’s no mechanic to deal with alternating, persistent, healing ultimates like that. It’s not one it’s two and as you’re trying to deal damage between the entire enemy squad; additional heals, and factor in the games horrible hit detection and you’re going to have a bad time.
The only real “counter” to that scenario is to, yourself, also have that scenario; two equivalent healers on your side to equal the healing factor they’re outputting; otherwise, more of their outgoing damage will land and less of your teams will; it’s basic math.
But even then, that’s not a mechanical counter that’s a big “maybe” that you’ll get two strong healers like that. I actually just played a match earlier that had 3 of them running on the opposite squad doing the same thing; alternating Temp Ults.
Some abilities and even Mythics that are seen to be extremely strong have a negative downside aspect to encourage balance and counterplay. If these abilities had such a feature, only when BS is active, then maybe we’d be in business.
This isn’t pre-subclassing where any one particular strong ability constituted a lower population occurrence in BG matches; now it’s a lot more of the same ability mechanics all in spam as they’re broken in volume.
-"There were TWO healers alternating their Ults"
And? Kill one, then kill the other.
-"You can’t “just focus” the one healer when their whole squad is in proximity."
Yes you can.
-"Sure, if you had a healer and maybe one or two squad mates in their vicinity when you encounter them you can manipulate the fight that way"
Every single bg is different. Situational awareness is a learned skill in bgs. Figure out what you can and can't do then do it... every time. This is me implicitly saying to you what I am trying my best to not say explicitly.
-"The only real “counter” to that scenario is to, yourself, also have that scenario".
Smashing their face in is an option.
-"This isn’t pre-subclassing where any one particular strong ability constituted a lower population occurrence in BG matches"
The damage and healing shift apllies to everyone, not just the other team.
I've tried my best to give you advice though it's obvious you aren't looking for it. That's all I have to say about this.
“Smashing their face in” isn’t advice .. it’s a lame statement based on nothing.
If what you are saying was accurate then this very thread wouldn’t exist and people wouldn’t keep contributing on a very real and consistent problem with BG’s.
Some of us are trying to point out and identify the mechanical problems that have crept up, before & after U47 that’s ultimately going to push players away from the game.
“The same healing and damage shift applies to everyone” .. well, no; not unless you’re suggesting everyone go and build the meta; then, yes, you’d be correct.
Yes, every BG is different and situational awareness is key, but those aren’t the issues at hand here.
Situational awareness and simply focusing tactics aren’t what’s resulting in the widely one sided squash matches here. A lack of proper strategy plays a factor in outcomes, yes, but that’s been a factor in BG’s LONG before now, that’s not new; that’s not what’s changed suddenly and that’s not what we’re talking about.
You can’t tell everyone that they have to go run a particular type of build, in a game built on build diversity, for the express purpose of getting around bad matchmaking & bad mechanics; the population will drop over time.
If the broad player base could just do what you’re suggesting nobody would be here on this thread.
There is so mich wrong with this it is obviously not worth continuing to engage. Take care.
Unless the Devs are going to address those mechanics (they’re not) then factoring healing output into MRR goes a long way to curbing the key imbalance that’s causing spawn caps and one sided matches.
But if not even cloning magic can hope to solve spawncamping and lopsided matches, isn't it better to simply correct the four critical flaws by going back to the three-sided format?
I understand there are people who have grown attached to some of the flaws. They're the reason the survival of two-teams is assured.
Edited by Moonspawn on September 16, 2025 9:50AMCan you help solve any of the FOUR critical flaws of Two-Teams BGs ?
Looking for feedback on How to fix the Three-Teams objective modes0 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Thumbless_Bot wrote: »
lolI've been playing Domination weekend for two months.
I don't think so. I'm still partial to the theory they want to force people to play the objective modes. It's better than just doing whatever for no reason.Did ZOS ever say why they keep doing this?
By the way, finally had time to write an intro to the thread.
Zos is doing everything they can to make sure pvp is anything but pvp. If it's not forcing objectives its introducing ridiculous proc sets that do the work for you. They want pvp to be a safe and happy place where intense competition is not allowed and dying is fun for everyone. Its a safe and happy place. They are the Planet Fitness of mmos.
Planet Fitness is a good analogy.
Personally I feel like it’s just lazy developing .. Rather than taking a good look at BG’s now over the course of all the additions and updates and coming up with creative fixes; they instead just opened the floodgates and said “everybody gets everything” .. and that just made it all worse.
You can’t tell me anyone has really looked at mechanics when we have multiple sources of automatic evasion for projectiles but no such opposing mechanic to auto evade melee strikes. I see players constantly awarded with a dodge while standing or sprinting because of this mechanic so you’re basically telling ranged players to go walk off a short pier? … Abilities like Merci Resolve, Toppling Charge, or Assassins Blade have blisteringly fast execution animations and deal bonkers damage, meanwhile a whole array of skills have these lumbering clumsy animations that make their use so clunky in combat and in some cases not even register by the time the skill fully executes.
Mind you this isn’t something that weaving can address; it’s the nature of the ability mechanics not light attacks.
ZoS are making sandwiches with stale bread here from a mechanics standpoint. That’s literally the meat & potatoes of your game, mechanics. They don’t have to be perfect but they need to present as though they’ve had at least one coat of polish on them and that’s just not the case.Thumbless_Bot wrote: »I’ve been in matches where the opposing team had two Templar healers who would simply alternate being in their Ult so it was literally a persistent, constant, state of massive heals. That Ult is both mobile and un-interruptible. .. Nobody is going to counter that, I don’t care how much experience a player has. That’s because there’s no mechanic to address it.
Not true.
Yes, very true.
Practiced Incantation allows the caster to move and also gains immunity to disabling effects while channeling.
The base cost is only 125 and that has multiple methods of cost reduction, so two Templars can EASILY .. let me stress .. EASILY coordinate popping their Ults back & forth. While one is active the other is genning Ult and vice versa, it’s not hard to do.
With the persistent healing their team can defend them and there’s little the opposing team can do to counter here. They can’t interrupt the casting healer and so much damage is being persistently mitigated.
I’ve seen this more than once. Hence why people are suggesting that outward healing be a factor in MRR and I agree.
"Nobody is going to counter that". Simply not true.
I've killed my share of plars in the middle of their ultimate. Focus them and beat their head in. They will either die during or shortly after their ultimate if you have enough damage.
Think about what you just said and go back and re-read my original statement.
There were TWO healers alternating their Ults .. I should specify that it’s Temp Ults but I can’t say that they were Temps, they were just running that Ult.
You can’t “just focus” the one healer when their whole squad is in proximity. And I don’t mean Zerg ball, I mean group play. You can’t just focus the one healer and numerous attacking players all at the same time.
Sure, if you had a healer and maybe one or two squad mates in their vicinity when you encounter them you can manipulate the fight that way; I’ve done that too. But when their whole squad is in the general area and there’s two strong healers alternating ultimates and heals; that’s not going to happen.
They’re going to do the right thing and cover their healers and that’s what they did. And it’s not as though the other healer wasn’t also providing a heal factor to the casting healer as well. Focusing the casting healer in this case isn’t simply going to be enough.
This is why I mean by there’s no counter to that, there’s no mechanic to deal with alternating, persistent, healing ultimates like that. It’s not one it’s two and as you’re trying to deal damage between the entire enemy squad; additional heals, and factor in the games horrible hit detection and you’re going to have a bad time.
The only real “counter” to that scenario is to, yourself, also have that scenario; two equivalent healers on your side to equal the healing factor they’re outputting; otherwise, more of their outgoing damage will land and less of your teams will; it’s basic math.
But even then, that’s not a mechanical counter that’s a big “maybe” that you’ll get two strong healers like that. I actually just played a match earlier that had 3 of them running on the opposite squad doing the same thing; alternating Temp Ults.
Some abilities and even Mythics that are seen to be extremely strong have a negative downside aspect to encourage balance and counterplay. If these abilities had such a feature, only when BS is active, then maybe we’d be in business.
This isn’t pre-subclassing where any one particular strong ability constituted a lower population occurrence in BG matches; now it’s a lot more of the same ability mechanics all in spam as they’re broken in volume.
-"There were TWO healers alternating their Ults"
And? Kill one, then kill the other.
-"You can’t “just focus” the one healer when their whole squad is in proximity."
Yes you can.
-"Sure, if you had a healer and maybe one or two squad mates in their vicinity when you encounter them you can manipulate the fight that way"
Every single bg is different. Situational awareness is a learned skill in bgs. Figure out what you can and can't do then do it... every time. This is me implicitly saying to you what I am trying my best to not say explicitly.
-"The only real “counter” to that scenario is to, yourself, also have that scenario".
Smashing their face in is an option.
-"This isn’t pre-subclassing where any one particular strong ability constituted a lower population occurrence in BG matches"
The damage and healing shift apllies to everyone, not just the other team.
I've tried my best to give you advice though it's obvious you aren't looking for it. That's all I have to say about this.
“Smashing their face in” isn’t advice .. it’s a lame statement based on nothing.
If what you are saying was accurate then this very thread wouldn’t exist and people wouldn’t keep contributing on a very real and consistent problem with BG’s.
Some of us are trying to point out and identify the mechanical problems that have crept up, before & after U47 that’s ultimately going to push players away from the game.
“The same healing and damage shift applies to everyone” .. well, no; not unless you’re suggesting everyone go and build the meta; then, yes, you’d be correct.
Yes, every BG is different and situational awareness is key, but those aren’t the issues at hand here.
Situational awareness and simply focusing tactics aren’t what’s resulting in the widely one sided squash matches here. A lack of proper strategy plays a factor in outcomes, yes, but that’s been a factor in BG’s LONG before now, that’s not new; that’s not what’s changed suddenly and that’s not what we’re talking about.
You can’t tell everyone that they have to go run a particular type of build, in a game built on build diversity, for the express purpose of getting around bad matchmaking & bad mechanics; the population will drop over time.
If the broad player base could just do what you’re suggesting nobody would be here on this thread.
There is so mich wrong with this it is obviously not worth continuing to engage. Take care.
Unless the Devs are going to address those mechanics (they’re not) then factoring healing output into MRR goes a long way to curbing the key imbalance that’s causing spawn caps and one sided matches.
But if not even cloning magic can hope to solve spawncamping and lopsided matches, isn't it better to simply correct the four critical flaws by going back to the three-sided format?
I understand there are people who have grown attached to some of the flaws. They're the reason the survival of two-teams is assured.
I think the most direct answer to that is that many people, myself included, aren’t convinced that simply going back to a 3 team BG layout will solve those issues.
Would going to a 3 team format impact things, yes, absolutely. But a 3 team layout won’t prevent bad mechanics like, for example, two players spamming Deep Fissure at the base of an opponent spawn zone; hitting everyone that jumps down with both Breaches & large burst damage with no indicators. … a 3 team format wouldn’t prevent two teams from cannibalizing the 3rd depending on makeup.
I get where you’re coming from in that potentially having a 3rd team in the mix “should” help to disrupt focus from one sided squash matches but, to be fair, we see a large number of players enter BG’s, especially those players running the extreme meta builds, who don’t even play the BG objective; they simply coordinate for kills. Having a 3rd team doesn’t necessarily mean that same mentality won’t occur; nor does it mean the 3rd team will necessarily be effective in curbing the squash matches.
The problems in BG’s aren’t a singular issue. I would say that going to two teams is a contributor but a contributor on a long list of items. I, personally, wouldn’t put the two team layout at the top of that list. Many of us didn’t observe as much “squashing” pre subclassing as we see now; and that’s because the bar was raised due to the messy mechanics U47 introduced.
So, sure, we could go back to 3 team but I could sit here for an hour and type out all the ways we could end up with steamroll match BG’s even with 3 teams.
But, if the Devs were to change MRR to factor in, say, outward healing, since that’s a very cracked element right now, that could help curb the issue by making sure at least both sides have a strong healing factor. .. Will that cure things, no, but it’s a start.
If they applied both healing into MRR and 3 team might we see more of an impact? Maybe … but given how many people we see that use BG’s like their own personal dueling arena I’m skeptical. You can’t reply on player actions to solve the underlying issues with BG’s because players don’t always play the match. This is why looking at mechanics / MRR would take us further.0 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Something that hasn't been touched on is the fact that the BG maps could (and probably should) be specific to gamemodes. There's a reason games like OW, Team Fortress 2, Counter Strike, and the majority of other objective based PvP games have maps tailored to specific gamemodes.
When you design maps with intent, you prevent teams from wandering aimlessly, mitigate balance issues, and can help prevent things like spawn camping.
BG maps are one size fits all, which is much less development work, but very clearly shows trouble in specific gamemodes. In 3 team BGs, this meant that 2 teams would engage while the third would be able to cap unimpeded, because the maps weren't designed to force players into specific areas very well. In the two team BGs this problem exists, albeit in a different form, where the maps are sprawled out and objectives are just placed willy nilly around the map, so you end up having some players getting spawn camped the whole time while a few stragglers just run objective to objective thinking they're "helping" while their team gets obliterated because they're outmanned by the enemy team.
In CTF, for example, the maps have loads of wasted space. A couple flank routes are understandable, but lets be real: 90% of the map sees no use in CTF.
Chaosball should not allow people to bring the ball back to spawn. It creates a similar problem where now 90% of the map is useless when all 3 balls are in one place. Force the players to stay in specific areas with the ball to gain points.
For the Flag games, the opposite problem exists - the flags are placed willy nilly around the map so teams get spread out with no real incentive to stick together, leading to a snowball of death picking off stragglers until one team gets spawncamped. There's very few flags that have good rotation routes to other flags, so positioning is more or less nullified and replaced with "sprint at max speed across the map as soon as the next flag spawns and never look back".
In Deathmatch, you have an issue where by designing the maps for the other objective modes, you make it too easy to traverse back to spawn to spawn camp for the enemy. Deathmatch maps should have more chokepoints closer to spawns, better sightlines for the spawning team than the attacking team, etc etc. Much like pushing a porch with oils dropping in Cyrodiil, it should be dangerous to push a team at their spawn, but it's often easier to get kills on people in their spawn with how the sightlines and spawn areas work. The problem? Since the map is designed for things like CTR/Chaosball, you can't make players too strong in their own spawn or the Relic would be untouchable. And don't get me started on the release system - releasing needs to be automatic in Deathmatch to prevent teams from trickling in. When one person gets delayed by 20 seconds because they happened to push the release button in 3 seconds rather than 2 seconds, it just causes your team to lose more. No one is really standing around reviving in Deathmatch unless someone is popping an instant res with Necro Ult.
In 3 team BGs this problem was mitigated somewhat by the presence of the third team, but still needed some adjustment on Objective Placement (in general, fewer objectives per gamemode) to really balance out some of the modes. In 2 team BGs, it's an absolute cluster because every map feels designed to encourage spawn camping.Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on September 16, 2025 9:01PM0