Vengeance 4 loadouts and perks

MincMincMinc · September 12

A bit of setup for the upcoming monday pts. I went and grabbed screenshots of the loadout system. We didn't get to see most of the perks, but typically they appear to be straight tradeoffs. like -300mag regen for 300 stam regen. or -3k armor for 3k pen. Both of these systems seem to mimic trading off basic stat bonuses like mundus, traits, 2-4 piece bonuses. Then the perks are kind of like 5 piece kiss curses. Should be enough to allow stam builds to get enough regen and use weapon lines easier without having to heavy attack to sustain.

Anyways here are the loadouts and stats in reference to the base vengeance stats. Note that the base vengeance stats from before are now referred to as the "soldier" stats. From a quick spreadsheet theorycraft stance. Most brawler melee players will want to use vanguard. Soldier/scout will be better for ranged. Medic is quite alot of healing too, if you could pick perks to makeup the damage it may be good for solo 1vX gameplay. The question is whether damage done acts the same as live, and whether pen/armor work the same. Does 660armor = 660 pen = 1% damage done in vengeance? Are players still considered lvl66 or are they now 50, and 500armor = 1%

Loadouts

Perks (waiting for pts to get pics)

JustLovely · September 12

Isn't this a bit of a double post and thread? (also started by you)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/683001/vengeance-4-perk-and-loadout-system-livestream-announcement#latest

Kartalin · September 12

JustLovely wrote: »

Isn't this a bit of a double post and thread? (also started by you)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/683001/vengeance-4-perk-and-loadout-system-livestream-announcement#latest

I appreciate being able to see the different archetypes they're creating without slogging through a video for what it's worth. Especially while I'm at work

I also appreciate having the soldier be the basic all purpose/flexible setup and the idea of allowing some specialization if guilds want to min/max a bit on loadouts and roles
.

MincMincMinc · September 12

JustLovely wrote: »

Isn't this a bit of a double post and thread? (also started by you)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/683001/vengeance-4-perk-and-loadout-system-livestream-announcement#latest

kinda, well that was for the general announcement and opinions on it. But as far as testing and pts goes this is more for the actual numbers and pictures of the perks once we get them. Also to go over the balance and what makes sense or doesn't make sense buff wise. Which is why i put the numbers and questions at the end along with the pictures so the pts discussion can be steered more into the functionality.

I will just move my other comments to that general opinion thread discussion to avoid confusion or hysteria.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · September 13

based on the layouts it would seem they are pivoting towards making magicka a healing stat and stamina a damage stat - 'Battle Medic' boosting only magicka and magicka recovery alongside healing done.

Also you can also see that Healing and Damage is yet again imbalanced. +16% healing done vs -10% damage done

I wonder if this hints at them considering it a mistake to go towards hybridisation.

acastanza_ESO · September 15

No Magicka DD spec is a huge disappointment.

Gabriel_H · September 15

Looking at those loadouts, it seems ZOS may have begun to recognise that having WD/SD both affect healing and damage output simultaneously was a bad idea.

I personally would support a complete change to those stats, and have it as offensive power (damage) and defensive power (affecting shields and healing) and split the stats.

MincMincMinc · September 15

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

based on the layouts it would seem they are pivoting towards making magicka a healing stat and stamina a damage stat - 'Battle Medic' boosting only magicka and magicka recovery alongside healing done.

Also you can also see that Healing and Damage is yet again imbalanced. +16% healing done vs -10% damage done

I wonder if this hints at them considering it a mistake to go towards hybridisation.

Good to point out, this would be worth testing on the first day against one another.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Looking at those loadouts, it seems ZOS may have begun to recognise that having WD/SD both affect healing and damage output simultaneously was a bad idea.

I personally would support a complete change to those stats, and have it as offensive power (damage) and defensive power (affecting shields and healing) and split the stats.

I think alot of people misunderstand WD/SD scaling heals as well because in most cases efficiency wise it isn't great. Because of how many %modifiers there are now on live, you can almost entirely ignore grabbing WD/SD sources until most of your build is flushed out except for mundus+jewelry enchants. To double down most WD sets have been ruined since around 2017 when they began implementing really clunky cooldowns and proc conditions that don't function well. Trippling down most WD sets give you about 400-450wd whereas to match the pen set damage you would need about 850-900wd. (if you compare stuhns to something like clever alch 675 you would see that it is about 80% of stuhns damage so 675/0.80 = 843.75wd needed to be equivalent. These are also on 5medium builds with dbos wd bonus aswell, so heavily in favor of WD. Then you get into cooldowns and realize clever alch is about a 44% uptime at best whereas stuhns or other %modifier sets will be 100%.

WD is supposed to be the middleground where getting max stat provides about 33% less damage and getting % modifiers like Pen, %dmg, or %critDmg*critchance will provide about 33% more damage. Max stats are supposed to lose the 33% with the trade off for capacity sustain(not really needed with today's bloated regen/return). %sources are supposed to gain 33% because effectively they allow you to output more within the same window. This is all general stat theory though, in practice and actual gameplay use case, balance, and cooldowns begin to matter more.

Gabriel_H · September 15

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I think alot of people misunderstand WD/SD scaling heals as well because in most cases efficiency wise it isn't great.

Isn't great and non-existent are not the same thing. Regardless of how well it scales it shouldn't scale both simultaenously. It's not condusive to good balancing.

MashmalloMan · September 15

"It's just a test though."

StihlReign · September 15

I wonder how many hundreds of thousands of dollars and hours of development have been wasted on this...

MincMincMinc · September 15

Gabriel_H wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I think alot of people misunderstand WD/SD scaling heals as well because in most cases efficiency wise it isn't great.

Isn't great and non-existent are not the same thing. Regardless of how well it scales it shouldn't scale both simultaenously. It's not condusive to good balancing.

What I'm pointing out is that its just not an issue worth getting into as it has such a near nonexistant impact on the game. Meta builds primarily get their healing from other mathmatical sources. Especially considering WD sets are just not viable like they used to be back in 2015-2016

Healing soul major vitality
Monomyth minor vitality
single target healing cp
Heals that dont scale or scale with more prominent inflated stats like health scalers.
powered vs nirn backbar in most cases is the same.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · September 15

This is another huge red flag that Vengeance isn’t a performance test — it’s being built as a permanent game mode. You don’t create full archetypes with perks, penalties, and polished UI for testing; this is the design direction.

And that means the end of real PvP is here. Instead of fixing performance and balancing the sandbox we’ve all invested in, ZOS is replacing it with prefabricated loadouts that kill build diversity and creativity. Vengeance will be the new future, and Cyrodiil will be left to rot.

BergisMacBride · September 16

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

This is another huge red flag that Vengeance isn’t a performance test — it’s being built as a permanent game mode. You don’t create full archetypes with perks, penalties, and polished UI for testing; this is the design direction.

And that means the end of real PvP is here. Instead of fixing performance and balancing the sandbox we’ve all invested in, ZOS is replacing it with prefabricated loadouts that kill build diversity and creativity. Vengeance will be the new future, and Cyrodiil will be left to rot.

Yeah it’s pretty apparent now this is the direction they’re heading to get large population pvp back. Folks are either going to hate it, love it or wait and see (that’s where I am). Maybe they’ll keep a legacy server with the current ruleset. Also don’t know how this will affect IC and the mixed PvP/PvE play there.

MincMincMinc · September 16

BergisMacBride wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

This is another huge red flag that Vengeance isn’t a performance test — it’s being built as a permanent game mode. You don’t create full archetypes with perks, penalties, and polished UI for testing; this is the design direction.

And that means the end of real PvP is here. Instead of fixing performance and balancing the sandbox we’ve all invested in, ZOS is replacing it with prefabricated loadouts that kill build diversity and creativity. Vengeance will be the new future, and Cyrodiil will be left to rot.

Yeah it’s pretty apparent now this is the direction they’re heading to get large population pvp back. Folks are either going to hate it, love it or wait and see (that’s where I am). Maybe they’ll keep a legacy server with the current ruleset. Also don’t know how this will affect IC and the mixed PvP/PvE play there.

Well they said IC was going to remain as current live system wise. BGs they were questioning if it would even make sense to do a vengeance que. Cyrodil its unclear whether we would have two or not. Judging by even just the forum response and streamer response they would choose to have both campaigns. Vengeance as a learning environment makes a lot of sense because live greyhost is helpless at trying to get new players in.

I also wouldn't exactly call it permanent just because they made a ui element. Most of the UI we saw from the loadout and perk system was just copy and pasted elements. Most of the perk icons appear to be copy and pastes of buffs or skill icons.

Again why would zos get rid of items in pvp? How does that make them money? Eventually gear and items would have to return otherwise there is no reason for pvp players to ever purchase content or eso+ again. Unless we want to make up another conspiracy that zos is going to require ESO+ to enter cyrodil. This alone points that vengeance would have to be run in parallel with a live greyhost, or otherwise would only get rid of greyhost until most of the other systems are added back into vengeance and the two are practically the same combat wise except one has better code.

Joy_Division · September 16

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

This is another huge red flag that Vengeance isn’t a performance test — it’s being built as a permanent game mode. You don’t create full archetypes with perks, penalties, and polished UI for testing; this is the design direction.

And that means the end of real PvP is here. Instead of fixing performance and balancing the sandbox we’ve all invested in, ZOS is replacing it with prefabricated loadouts that kill build diversity and creativity. Vengeance will be the new future, and Cyrodiil will be left to rot.

@ZOS_Kevin . I, am and I am sure others are tired of having this conversation. Can you please make a statement what your intentions are when it comes to Vengeance and the current version of PvP as it stands now. Can these coexist or will they not?

People who dislike Vengeance are 100% convinced that Grey Host as it exists now will be removed permanently as an option for them to play the instant Vengeance is ready to go. They do not believe that ZOS would ever have server support for different modes of PvP.

Is that true? Or, would ZOS be willing to still support Grey Host as a playable campaign?

I can only speak for myself, but I have been a vocal supporter for Vengeance because I am under the impression that even if Vengeance is offered to us as a PvP campaign, the current Live version of PvP would still be available for folks to play. Similar to how no CP campaign is available for folks who dislike how CP affects PvP. I know a lot of us have said in our feedback that Vengeance would serve as an excellent replacement for the current under 50 campaign as a way for anyone to just hop into Cyrodiil and play on an even field.

I watched the Livestream and I got the impression that ZOS itself isn;t committed to Vengeance's future. That's fine. I am not asking for a set in stone statement as to Vengeance's implementation. I am asking if the current Live Version of PvP will still be a playable option even if a Vengeance type campaign becomes a reality? As for myself, even though I have a lot of problems with how PvP is in its current Live version, I do not want to see it removed as a playable option because there are going to be times I want to PvP with the gear and skills and other progression elements I have spent thousands of hours acquiring over the past decade. I want that option.