PvP's getting shafted again.

ShutUpitsRed · August 28

Vengeance campaign, meant for testing high volumes of players in Cyrodiil, returns September 22nd-29th. Great!
The Undaunted Celebration, the most grindy, and one of the most popular, PvE events returns September 18th-30th.

So PvP, already struggling, is supposed to be getting one of its rare performance tests during the biggest, or at least one of the biggest, PvE events of the year. Can't wait for lower population numbers to be blamed on overall lack of interest, just like lower WM pop earlier this year (when WM is up there with Witches Festival for worthless rewards).

I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist but surely they can't be this clueless?

JohnRingo · August 29

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Vengeance campaign, meant for testing high volumes of players in Cyrodiil, returns September 22nd-29th. Great!
The Undaunted Celebration, the most grindy, and one of the most popular, PvE events returns September 18th-30th.

So PvP, already struggling, is supposed to be getting one of its rare performance tests during the biggest, or at least one of the biggest, PvE events of the year. Can't wait for lower population numbers to be blamed on overall lack of interest, just like lower WM pop earlier this year (when WM is up there with Witches Festival for worthless rewards).

I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist but surely they can't be this clueless?

Ugh. Count me out of Vengeance. Care Bear land.

SeaGtGruff · August 29

I thought WM's rewards were great, but then one person's trash can be another's treasure, and vice versa.

I plan to participate in both activities, but I'll probably spend more time on the Vengeance test than the Undaunted event. I've already collected most of the style pages from previous Undaunted events, I can usually collect all of the new pages from an event without having to grind a lot for event coffers, and I'm not one to farm duplicate pages so I can try to sell them on guild traders, so I'll likely be doing not much more than the bare minimum needed each day to earn my tickets and golden coffer, plus maybe a purple coffer or two.

That should leave plenty of time for participating in Vengeance. I'm curious to see what is being added to the mix. I mostly disliked the first Vengeance test because I wasn't able to play the way I normally do in Cyrodiil. For instance, I wasn't able to solo-capture resources, which is something I enjoy doing. I liked the second Vengeance test a lot more, because I was able to play in a way that was much closer to usual. I'm hoping the third Vengeance test will ket me play closer still to usual.

acastanza_ESO · August 29

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Vengeance campaign, meant for testing high volumes of players in Cyrodiil, returns September 22nd-29th. Great!
The Undaunted Celebration, the most grindy, and one of the most popular, PvE events returns September 18th-30th.

So PvP, already struggling, is supposed to be getting one of its rare performance tests during the biggest, or at least one of the biggest, PvE events of the year. Can't wait for lower population numbers to be blamed on overall lack of interest, just like lower WM pop earlier this year (when WM is up there with Witches Festival for worthless rewards).

I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist but surely they can't be this clueless?

I think it's actually a great idea. If Vengeance is high pop during one of the biggest PVE events of the year, that's a clear and decisive vote by the player-base that this is something that they really really want.

If its not high pop then the opposite - that there isn't interest - isn't inherently true, and I think ZOS is smart enough to recognize that.

Oblivion_Protocol · August 29

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

I think it's actually a great idea. If Vengeance is high pop during one of the biggest PVE events of the year, that's a clear and decisive vote by the player-base that this is something that they really really want.

If its not high pop then the opposite - that there isn't interest - isn't inherently true, and I think ZOS is smart enough to recognize that.

So a high population automatically means overwhelming success, but the opposite situation doesn’t necessarily mean the opposite result? That’s quite the gaping fallacy hole in your logic you’ve got there.

Also, we’ve somewhat lost the plot. Vengeance isn’t intended to be some permanent game mode. It’s a performance stress test. That’s why it’s the only server available in Cyro, and why it’s incentivized with increased AP and XP (at least for the last two rounds). If they really want to test it for viability as a permanent game mode, they should roll it out with the same rewards as regular Cyro, keep the other servers up, run it for an entire month, and let the actual PvP community decide whether we want it or not.

Doragren · August 29

Performance isnt even that bad, we dont need Vengeance!!!

Fix ball groups (Cross healing vigors and rapid regens) and you will see huge performance increase

biovitalb16_ESO · August 30

Ugh PvP, why would anyone want to subject themselves to fighting all the Warden/Templar subclasses that are tankier than Vet HM raid bosses.

ShutUpitsRed · August 30

biovitalb16_ESO wrote: »

Ugh PvP, why would anyone want to subject themselves to fighting all the Warden/Templar subclasses that are tankier than Vet HM raid bosses.

There's 14+ other subforums just for you buddy.

acastanza_ESO · August 30

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

I think it's actually a great idea. If Vengeance is high pop during one of the biggest PVE events of the year, that's a clear and decisive vote by the player-base that this is something that they really really want.

If its not high pop then the opposite - that there isn't interest - isn't inherently true, and I think ZOS is smart enough to recognize that.

So a high population automatically means overwhelming success, but the opposite situation doesn’t necessarily mean the opposite result? That’s quite the gaping fallacy hole in your logic you’ve got there.

That's not what a fallacy is, and no, the logic is in fact quite simple and straightforward.
To put it in extremely simple terms, if you are given a choice between a piece of chocolate and a mashmallow, and you take the chocolate, it doesn't mean you hate mashmallow, but it does prove that you like chocolate. Understand?

For the record, I don't even like Vengeance.

Bogaisha · August 30

Permanent Vengeance is the only thing that will save the PvP population. PC NA is down 50% YoY outside of Primetime

And to build off that side convo, yes, implying there's a one-way correlation like that while denying the possibility of the inverse being true is heavily fallacious

SeaGtGruff · August 30

Doragren wrote: »

Performance isnt even that bad, we dont need Vengeance!!!

Fix ball groups (Cross healing vigors and rapid regens) and you will see huge performance increase

It seems to me that overall performance in Cyrodiil has gotten better of late, at least compared to how bad it's been at times in the past.

But I wonder if they're discovering anything during the test campaigns which has helped them make changes for the better in the regular campaigns?

katorga · August 30

Bogaisha wrote: »

Permanent Vengeance is the only thing that will save the PvP population. PC NA is down 50% YoY outside of Primetime

And to build off that side convo, yes, implying there's a one-way correlation like that while denying the possibility of the inverse being true is heavily fallacious

Permanent vengeance will end open world after 6 months. It is just pvdoor. No variety. No “skill”. And little different from 200 player light attacking each other.

In last tests as soon as golden pursuits were finished populations started waning.

And for me second test performance was worse than primerime greyhost.

JustLovely · August 30

Bogaisha wrote: »

Permanent Vengeance is the only thing that will save the PvP population. PC NA is down 50% YoY outside of Primetime

And to build off that side convo, yes, implying there's a one-way correlation like that while denying the possibility of the inverse being true is heavily fallacious

Mandated vengeance mode will be the death of ESO PvP, and probably the last major change ZOS makes before ESO is shut down all together.

The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction.

ZOS could fix current live PvP if they put in the resources required to do it. If ZOS doesn't already know exactly what's causing the performance issues they're not the AAA studio we've all been told they are.

JustLovely · August 30

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Vengeance campaign, meant for testing high volumes of players in Cyrodiil, returns September 22nd-29th. Great!
The Undaunted Celebration, the most grindy, and one of the most popular, PvE events returns September 18th-30th.

So PvP, already struggling, is supposed to be getting one of its rare performance tests during the biggest, or at least one of the biggest, PvE events of the year. Can't wait for lower population numbers to be blamed on overall lack of interest, just like lower WM pop earlier this year (when WM is up there with Witches Festival for worthless rewards).

I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist but surely they can't be this clueless?

If all of ESO share a limited server capacity, then it makes sense to have both events going same time.

Sluggy · August 30

Doragren wrote: »

Performance isnt even that bad, we dont need Vengeance!!!

Fix ball groups (Cross healing vigors and rapid regens) and you will see huge performance increase

For sure! Who even needs to use two skills in a row anyway? Or really, two skills in a five second period for that matter. If you're going to use a skill it should either be a HoT while in a group of eleven others using that same HoT or it should be Merciless Resolve which will outright kill anyone under 30k hp (and some even over it). So yeah. I agree. Performance is perfect as long as you don't plan to do much of anything else! Which you shouldn't!

Oblivion_Protocol · August 31

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

That's not what a fallacy is, and no, the logic is in fact quite simple and straightforward.
To put it in extremely simple terms, if you are given a choice between a piece of chocolate and a mashmallow, and you take the chocolate, it doesn't mean you hate mashmallow, but it does prove that you like chocolate. Understand?

For the record, I don't even like Vengeance.

Your analogy is a bit off. In this case, it’s the choice between a marshmallow and a piece of chocolate that’s mostly palatable to a percentage of the population that doesn’t eat chocolate very often. And if you pick the chocolate, there’s a chance that it will become the only kind of chocolate anyone ever gets again, with no one listening to the people who actually research the best kinds of chocolate and know what gourmet chocolate tastes like, instead of just eating the occasional Hershey bar.

Bogaisha · August 31

JustLovely wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

Permanent Vengeance is the only thing that will save the PvP population. PC NA is down 50% YoY outside of Primetime

And to build off that side convo, yes, implying there's a one-way correlation like that while denying the possibility of the inverse being true is heavily fallacious

Mandated vengeance mode will be the death of ESO PvP, and probably the last major change ZOS makes before ESO is shut down all together.

The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction.

ZOS could fix current live PvP if they put in the resources required to do it. If ZOS doesn't already know exactly what's causing the performance issues they're not the AAA studio we've all been told they are.

The population is lower than last year even when you factor in queue count. It's not a tenable path to not put forward Vengeance as a permanent mode. Between performance issues, balance issues, and factions treating the main campaign like a side campaign and nightcapping religiously—pvp population is in the crater. People log on see a map one color and get zerged down when touching a resource and go play another game, and the more people play other games, the less ESO has pull over their time.

And with a smaller pvp population, comes fewer people to counter the voices of the PvErs/some PvPers who prefer Vengeance.

And if Vengeance was offered as a permanent mode side-by-side with existing campaigns, Vengeance will be the most populated, as the people who do not like Vengeance will just play there as it will be the most populated.

To really hammer this home, not having locked pop for DC or EP at a little past 12 on a Saturday night is alarming. That's with a drastically reduced population cap. If they ever did increase population cap again, there would not be enough players to lock pop it until primetime, and depending on how large of a pop increase, it's possible it wouldn't fill at primetime. You could gather all the current ESO PC NA PvPers into one 2017 level population cap campaign and it wouldn't even be half filled. PvP population is only getting decimated year after year, and it's not only typical attrition for older games.

That population in the image is the same population at this time every work day for this cycle, and that's what the map looks like for the type of fights you'll get, either stack the side that's PvDooring that cycle, get 70v1 zerged on a resource, or play another game(which is the choice most have made). That's a massive dip from just last year, an insurmountable dip from 8 years ago. At this pace, we'll be doing 30v30v30 Cyrodiil in 2028 with NA late night being one side stacked at 30v5v5 at best.

Lastly, to your point that "The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction."

The populations are low because no one PvPs on ESO anymore. Even the old players that come back to check it out quit within weeks.

Iriidius · August 31

katorga wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

Permanent Vengeance is the only thing that will save the PvP population. PC NA is down 50% YoY outside of Primetime

And to build off that side convo, yes, implying there's a one-way correlation like that while denying the possibility of the inverse being true is heavily fallacious

Permanent vengeance will end open world after 6 months. It is just pvdoor. No variety. No “skill”. And little different from 200 player light attacking each other.

In last tests as soon as golden pursuits were finished populations started waning.

And for me second test performance was worse than primerime greyhost.

Full factions take Keeps with zero or single digit defenders in Blackreach and Ravenwatch all the time but 200 players attacking a Keep defended by 200 players in Vengeance is PvDoor for you?

Skill(s) is literally the only thing in Vengeance that matters in fight with equal numbers while in livePvP if your build cant compete you can stop skill casting as it wont save you.

Performance even in pve got terrible a week before the test even started so the performance was just generally *** at that time.

Iriidius · August 31

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Vengeance campaign, meant for testing high volumes of players in Cyrodiil, returns September 22nd-29th. Great!
The Undaunted Celebration, the most grindy, and one of the most popular, PvE events returns September 18th-30th.

So PvP, already struggling, is supposed to be getting one of its rare performance tests during the biggest, or at least one of the biggest, PvE events of the year. Can't wait for lower population numbers to be blamed on overall lack of interest, just like lower WM pop earlier this year (when WM is up there with Witches Festival for worthless rewards).

I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist but surely they can't be this clueless?

I think it's actually a great idea. If Vengeance is high pop during one of the biggest PVE events of the year, that's a clear and decisive vote by the player-base that this is something that they really really want.

If its not high pop then the opposite - that there isn't interest - isn't inherently true, and I think ZOS is smart enough to recognize that.

Only if ZOS regards the undauntedevent and lackof Vengeance golden pursuit(as they have undaunted one and never two at same time)and not suddenly starts listening to forum buildPvPers who will claim Vengeance advocators already got bored and lost interest in Vengeance despite break and that the performance still sucks completely disregarding the undaunted event and missing golden pursuit.

LPapirius · August 31

JustLovely wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Vengeance campaign, meant for testing high volumes of players in Cyrodiil, returns September 22nd-29th. Great!
The Undaunted Celebration, the most grindy, and one of the most popular, PvE events returns September 18th-30th.

So PvP, already struggling, is supposed to be getting one of its rare performance tests during the biggest, or at least one of the biggest, PvE events of the year. Can't wait for lower population numbers to be blamed on overall lack of interest, just like lower WM pop earlier this year (when WM is up there with Witches Festival for worthless rewards).

I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist but surely they can't be this clueless?

If all of ESO share a limited server capacity, then it makes sense to have both events going same time.

I remember when they told us that PvP and PvE were on seperate servers. Then over years and years we all saw how PvP performance declined with the addition of every new PvE expansion. So ya. Whatever.

LPapirius · August 31

Bogaisha wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

Permanent Vengeance is the only thing that will save the PvP population. PC NA is down 50% YoY outside of Primetime

And to build off that side convo, yes, implying there's a one-way correlation like that while denying the possibility of the inverse being true is heavily fallacious

Mandated vengeance mode will be the death of ESO PvP, and probably the last major change ZOS makes before ESO is shut down all together.

The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction.

ZOS could fix current live PvP if they put in the resources required to do it. If ZOS doesn't already know exactly what's causing the performance issues they're not the AAA studio we've all been told they are.

The population is lower than last year even when you factor in queue count. It's not a tenable path to not put forward Vengeance as a permanent mode. Between performance issues, balance issues, and factions treating the main campaign like a side campaign and nightcapping religiously—pvp population is in the crater. People log on see a map one color and get zerged down when touching a resource and go play another game, and the more people play other games, the less ESO has pull over their time.

And with a smaller pvp population, comes fewer people to counter the voices of the PvErs/some PvPers who prefer Vengeance.

And if Vengeance was offered as a permanent mode side-by-side with existing campaigns, Vengeance will be the most populated, as the people who do not like Vengeance will just play there as it will be the most populated.

To really hammer this home, not having locked pop for DC or EP at a little past 12 on a Saturday night is alarming. That's with a drastically reduced population cap. If they ever did increase population cap again, there would not be enough players to lock pop it until primetime, and depending on how large of a pop increase, it's possible it wouldn't fill at primetime. You could gather all the current ESO PC NA PvPers into one 2017 level population cap campaign and it wouldn't even be half filled. PvP population is only getting decimated year after year, and it's not only typical attrition for older games.

That population in the image is the same population at this time every work day for this cycle, and that's what the map looks like for the type of fights you'll get, either stack the side that's PvDooring that cycle, get 70v1 zerged on a resource, or play another game(which is the choice most have made). That's a massive dip from just last year, an insurmountable dip from 8 years ago. At this pace, we'll be doing 30v30v30 Cyrodiil in 2028 with NA late night being one side stacked at 30v5v5 at best.

Lastly, to your point that "The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction."

The populations are low because no one PvPs on ESO anymore. Even the old players that come back to check it out quit within weeks.

I disagree with every point you tried to make. Vengeance mode will be the death of PvP in ESO and, as a couple others have said, will likely be one of the last major changes ZOS makes to ESO before the game shuts down.

Bogaisha · August 31

LPapirius wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

Permanent Vengeance is the only thing that will save the PvP population. PC NA is down 50% YoY outside of Primetime

And to build off that side convo, yes, implying there's a one-way correlation like that while denying the possibility of the inverse being true is heavily fallacious

Mandated vengeance mode will be the death of ESO PvP, and probably the last major change ZOS makes before ESO is shut down all together.

The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction.

ZOS could fix current live PvP if they put in the resources required to do it. If ZOS doesn't already know exactly what's causing the performance issues they're not the AAA studio we've all been told they are.

The population is lower than last year even when you factor in queue count. It's not a tenable path to not put forward Vengeance as a permanent mode. Between performance issues, balance issues, and factions treating the main campaign like a side campaign and nightcapping religiously—pvp population is in the crater. People log on see a map one color and get zerged down when touching a resource and go play another game, and the more people play other games, the less ESO has pull over their time.

And with a smaller pvp population, comes fewer people to counter the voices of the PvErs/some PvPers who prefer Vengeance.

And if Vengeance was offered as a permanent mode side-by-side with existing campaigns, Vengeance will be the most populated, as the people who do not like Vengeance will just play there as it will be the most populated.

To really hammer this home, not having locked pop for DC or EP at a little past 12 on a Saturday night is alarming. That's with a drastically reduced population cap. If they ever did increase population cap again, there would not be enough players to lock pop it until primetime, and depending on how large of a pop increase, it's possible it wouldn't fill at primetime. You could gather all the current ESO PC NA PvPers into one 2017 level population cap campaign and it wouldn't even be half filled. PvP population is only getting decimated year after year, and it's not only typical attrition for older games.

That population in the image is the same population at this time every work day for this cycle, and that's what the map looks like for the type of fights you'll get, either stack the side that's PvDooring that cycle, get 70v1 zerged on a resource, or play another game(which is the choice most have made). That's a massive dip from just last year, an insurmountable dip from 8 years ago. At this pace, we'll be doing 30v30v30 Cyrodiil in 2028 with NA late night being one side stacked at 30v5v5 at best.

Lastly, to your point that "The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction."

The populations are low because no one PvPs on ESO anymore. Even the old players that come back to check it out quit within weeks.

I disagree with every point you tried to make. Vengeance mode will be the death of PvP in ESO and, as a couple others have said, will likely be one of the last major changes ZOS makes to ESO before the game shuts down.

You can disagree with reality all you want, but it wins in the long run, sorry

LPapirius · August 31

Bogaisha wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

Permanent Vengeance is the only thing that will save the PvP population. PC NA is down 50% YoY outside of Primetime

And to build off that side convo, yes, implying there's a one-way correlation like that while denying the possibility of the inverse being true is heavily fallacious

Mandated vengeance mode will be the death of ESO PvP, and probably the last major change ZOS makes before ESO is shut down all together.

The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction.

ZOS could fix current live PvP if they put in the resources required to do it. If ZOS doesn't already know exactly what's causing the performance issues they're not the AAA studio we've all been told they are.

The population is lower than last year even when you factor in queue count. It's not a tenable path to not put forward Vengeance as a permanent mode. Between performance issues, balance issues, and factions treating the main campaign like a side campaign and nightcapping religiously—pvp population is in the crater. People log on see a map one color and get zerged down when touching a resource and go play another game, and the more people play other games, the less ESO has pull over their time.

And with a smaller pvp population, comes fewer people to counter the voices of the PvErs/some PvPers who prefer Vengeance.

And if Vengeance was offered as a permanent mode side-by-side with existing campaigns, Vengeance will be the most populated, as the people who do not like Vengeance will just play there as it will be the most populated.

To really hammer this home, not having locked pop for DC or EP at a little past 12 on a Saturday night is alarming. That's with a drastically reduced population cap. If they ever did increase population cap again, there would not be enough players to lock pop it until primetime, and depending on how large of a pop increase, it's possible it wouldn't fill at primetime. You could gather all the current ESO PC NA PvPers into one 2017 level population cap campaign and it wouldn't even be half filled. PvP population is only getting decimated year after year, and it's not only typical attrition for older games.

That population in the image is the same population at this time every work day for this cycle, and that's what the map looks like for the type of fights you'll get, either stack the side that's PvDooring that cycle, get 70v1 zerged on a resource, or play another game(which is the choice most have made). That's a massive dip from just last year, an insurmountable dip from 8 years ago. At this pace, we'll be doing 30v30v30 Cyrodiil in 2028 with NA late night being one side stacked at 30v5v5 at best.

Lastly, to your point that "The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction."

The populations are low because no one PvPs on ESO anymore. Even the old players that come back to check it out quit within weeks.

I disagree with every point you tried to make. Vengeance mode will be the death of PvP in ESO and, as a couple others have said, will likely be one of the last major changes ZOS makes to ESO before the game shuts down.

You can disagree with reality all you want, but it wins in the long run, sorry

What you believe isn't necessarily reality. When PvP in ESO dies so does the entire game.

Bogaisha · August 31

LPapirius wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

Permanent Vengeance is the only thing that will save the PvP population. PC NA is down 50% YoY outside of Primetime

And to build off that side convo, yes, implying there's a one-way correlation like that while denying the possibility of the inverse being true is heavily fallacious

Mandated vengeance mode will be the death of ESO PvP, and probably the last major change ZOS makes before ESO is shut down all together.

The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction.

ZOS could fix current live PvP if they put in the resources required to do it. If ZOS doesn't already know exactly what's causing the performance issues they're not the AAA studio we've all been told they are.

The population is lower than last year even when you factor in queue count. It's not a tenable path to not put forward Vengeance as a permanent mode. Between performance issues, balance issues, and factions treating the main campaign like a side campaign and nightcapping religiously—pvp population is in the crater. People log on see a map one color and get zerged down when touching a resource and go play another game, and the more people play other games, the less ESO has pull over their time.

And with a smaller pvp population, comes fewer people to counter the voices of the PvErs/some PvPers who prefer Vengeance.

And if Vengeance was offered as a permanent mode side-by-side with existing campaigns, Vengeance will be the most populated, as the people who do not like Vengeance will just play there as it will be the most populated.

To really hammer this home, not having locked pop for DC or EP at a little past 12 on a Saturday night is alarming. That's with a drastically reduced population cap. If they ever did increase population cap again, there would not be enough players to lock pop it until primetime, and depending on how large of a pop increase, it's possible it wouldn't fill at primetime. You could gather all the current ESO PC NA PvPers into one 2017 level population cap campaign and it wouldn't even be half filled. PvP population is only getting decimated year after year, and it's not only typical attrition for older games.

That population in the image is the same population at this time every work day for this cycle, and that's what the map looks like for the type of fights you'll get, either stack the side that's PvDooring that cycle, get 70v1 zerged on a resource, or play another game(which is the choice most have made). That's a massive dip from just last year, an insurmountable dip from 8 years ago. At this pace, we'll be doing 30v30v30 Cyrodiil in 2028 with NA late night being one side stacked at 30v5v5 at best.

Lastly, to your point that "The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction."

The populations are low because no one PvPs on ESO anymore. Even the old players that come back to check it out quit within weeks.

I disagree with every point you tried to make. Vengeance mode will be the death of PvP in ESO and, as a couple others have said, will likely be one of the last major changes ZOS makes to ESO before the game shuts down.

You can disagree with reality all you want, but it wins in the long run, sorry

What you believe isn't necessarily reality. When PvP in ESO dies so does the entire game.

lol no

xFocused · September 1

LPapirius wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

Permanent Vengeance is the only thing that will save the PvP population. PC NA is down 50% YoY outside of Primetime

And to build off that side convo, yes, implying there's a one-way correlation like that while denying the possibility of the inverse being true is heavily fallacious

Mandated vengeance mode will be the death of ESO PvP, and probably the last major change ZOS makes before ESO is shut down all together.

The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction.

ZOS could fix current live PvP if they put in the resources required to do it. If ZOS doesn't already know exactly what's causing the performance issues they're not the AAA studio we've all been told they are.

The population is lower than last year even when you factor in queue count. It's not a tenable path to not put forward Vengeance as a permanent mode. Between performance issues, balance issues, and factions treating the main campaign like a side campaign and nightcapping religiously—pvp population is in the crater. People log on see a map one color and get zerged down when touching a resource and go play another game, and the more people play other games, the less ESO has pull over their time.

And with a smaller pvp population, comes fewer people to counter the voices of the PvErs/some PvPers who prefer Vengeance.

And if Vengeance was offered as a permanent mode side-by-side with existing campaigns, Vengeance will be the most populated, as the people who do not like Vengeance will just play there as it will be the most populated.

To really hammer this home, not having locked pop for DC or EP at a little past 12 on a Saturday night is alarming. That's with a drastically reduced population cap. If they ever did increase population cap again, there would not be enough players to lock pop it until primetime, and depending on how large of a pop increase, it's possible it wouldn't fill at primetime. You could gather all the current ESO PC NA PvPers into one 2017 level population cap campaign and it wouldn't even be half filled. PvP population is only getting decimated year after year, and it's not only typical attrition for older games.

That population in the image is the same population at this time every work day for this cycle, and that's what the map looks like for the type of fights you'll get, either stack the side that's PvDooring that cycle, get 70v1 zerged on a resource, or play another game(which is the choice most have made). That's a massive dip from just last year, an insurmountable dip from 8 years ago. At this pace, we'll be doing 30v30v30 Cyrodiil in 2028 with NA late night being one side stacked at 30v5v5 at best.

Lastly, to your point that "The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction."

The populations are low because no one PvPs on ESO anymore. Even the old players that come back to check it out quit within weeks.

I disagree with every point you tried to make. Vengeance mode will be the death of PvP in ESO and, as a couple others have said, will likely be one of the last major changes ZOS makes to ESO before the game shuts down.

You can disagree with reality all you want, but it wins in the long run, sorry

What you believe isn't necessarily reality. When PvP in ESO dies so does the entire game.

This is such a silly take. I used to play on the PS NA Server in GH and even during this last Midyear, population was WAY down. PvE players aren't partaking in PvP and I don't blame them. Veteran PvP players are either logging in less and less, moving to other games or just reversing back to PvE. I've been playing PvP for years now and it's in a terrible state. I went back to PvE (where I first got started in ESO) and I'm enjoying myself quite a bit. My PvE guilds are very active, group finder for Trials is active, PvP just isn't all this game offers and honestly...I can't blame anyone for leaving it behind in it's current state. As Bogaisha pointed out above, night/day capping is a problem, if one alliance owns everything and wants to zerg 3 bars vs 1 player at a resource then it's almost impossible to play solo and so forth. I know if I login and see my alliance gated during primetime I'm logging back out, it's just not worth it anymore

Joy_Division · September 2

LPapirius wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

Permanent Vengeance is the only thing that will save the PvP population. PC NA is down 50% YoY outside of Primetime

And to build off that side convo, yes, implying there's a one-way correlation like that while denying the possibility of the inverse being true is heavily fallacious

Mandated vengeance mode will be the death of ESO PvP, and probably the last major change ZOS makes before ESO is shut down all together.

The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction.

ZOS could fix current live PvP if they put in the resources required to do it. If ZOS doesn't already know exactly what's causing the performance issues they're not the AAA studio we've all been told they are.

The population is lower than last year even when you factor in queue count. It's not a tenable path to not put forward Vengeance as a permanent mode. Between performance issues, balance issues, and factions treating the main campaign like a side campaign and nightcapping religiously—pvp population is in the crater. People log on see a map one color and get zerged down when touching a resource and go play another game, and the more people play other games, the less ESO has pull over their time.

And with a smaller pvp population, comes fewer people to counter the voices of the PvErs/some PvPers who prefer Vengeance.

And if Vengeance was offered as a permanent mode side-by-side with existing campaigns, Vengeance will be the most populated, as the people who do not like Vengeance will just play there as it will be the most populated.

To really hammer this home, not having locked pop for DC or EP at a little past 12 on a Saturday night is alarming. That's with a drastically reduced population cap. If they ever did increase population cap again, there would not be enough players to lock pop it until primetime, and depending on how large of a pop increase, it's possible it wouldn't fill at primetime. You could gather all the current ESO PC NA PvPers into one 2017 level population cap campaign and it wouldn't even be half filled. PvP population is only getting decimated year after year, and it's not only typical attrition for older games.

That population in the image is the same population at this time every work day for this cycle, and that's what the map looks like for the type of fights you'll get, either stack the side that's PvDooring that cycle, get 70v1 zerged on a resource, or play another game(which is the choice most have made). That's a massive dip from just last year, an insurmountable dip from 8 years ago. At this pace, we'll be doing 30v30v30 Cyrodiil in 2028 with NA late night being one side stacked at 30v5v5 at best.

Lastly, to your point that "The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction."

The populations are low because no one PvPs on ESO anymore. Even the old players that come back to check it out quit within weeks.

I disagree with every point you tried to make. Vengeance mode will be the death of PvP in ESO and, as a couple others have said, will likely be one of the last major changes ZOS makes to ESO before the game shuts down.

You can disagree with reality all you want, but it wins in the long run, sorry

What you believe isn't necessarily reality. When PvP in ESO dies so does the entire game.

Lol wut?

MincMincMinc · September 2

LPapirius wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Vengeance campaign, meant for testing high volumes of players in Cyrodiil, returns September 22nd-29th. Great!
The Undaunted Celebration, the most grindy, and one of the most popular, PvE events returns September 18th-30th.

So PvP, already struggling, is supposed to be getting one of its rare performance tests during the biggest, or at least one of the biggest, PvE events of the year. Can't wait for lower population numbers to be blamed on overall lack of interest, just like lower WM pop earlier this year (when WM is up there with Witches Festival for worthless rewards).

I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist but surely they can't be this clueless?

If all of ESO share a limited server capacity, then it makes sense to have both events going same time.

I remember when they told us that PvP and PvE were on seperate servers. Then over years and years we all saw how PvP performance declined with the addition of every new PvE expansion. So ya. Whatever.

Well you release new bloated sets and skills each dlc launch and power creep the game by tacking on system after system. No wonder the game cant handle modern skills, set bonuses, passives, status effects, etc you name it. Power creep is a tactic for horizontal progression games to FEEL like people are seeing vertical progression. Oh i got stronger because look I can 1 shot zone mobs now, or hey we do this trial faster.

People see vengeance as carebear land, but in reality they are far better base unmorphed skills that help cut out the power creep. Not to mention PvP having its own set of skills lets us remain away from the PvE crowd demanding power creep each patch. If you can get past all of the conspiracies and see vengeance for what it would be once they add the other systems back, its not much different than live pvp except with the fat trimmed off skills.

At a certain point they need to test what happens to the server when sets and stat changes affect skills, so its not like vengeance wont get there if it keeps being developed.

Even if they do give up, it at most would replace the 0 population u50 and nocp servers with a single vengeance learning server. Then youd probably have GH and the blackreach campaigns for endgame dlc proc ballgroup haven.

All i know is if current vengeance replaces all pvp like the conspiracy theorists say, then suddenly I never have to buy eso+ again or any future dlc......so doubt zos is going to do this.

MorallyBipolar · September 2

Bogaisha wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

Permanent Vengeance is the only thing that will save the PvP population. PC NA is down 50% YoY outside of Primetime

And to build off that side convo, yes, implying there's a one-way correlation like that while denying the possibility of the inverse being true is heavily fallacious

Mandated vengeance mode will be the death of ESO PvP, and probably the last major change ZOS makes before ESO is shut down all together.

The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction.

ZOS could fix current live PvP if they put in the resources required to do it. If ZOS doesn't already know exactly what's causing the performance issues they're not the AAA studio we've all been told they are.

The population is lower than last year even when you factor in queue count. It's not a tenable path to not put forward Vengeance as a permanent mode. Between performance issues, balance issues, and factions treating the main campaign like a side campaign and nightcapping religiously—pvp population is in the crater. People log on see a map one color and get zerged down when touching a resource and go play another game, and the more people play other games, the less ESO has pull over their time.

And with a smaller pvp population, comes fewer people to counter the voices of the PvErs/some PvPers who prefer Vengeance.

And if Vengeance was offered as a permanent mode side-by-side with existing campaigns, Vengeance will be the most populated, as the people who do not like Vengeance will just play there as it will be the most populated.

To really hammer this home, not having locked pop for DC or EP at a little past 12 on a Saturday night is alarming. That's with a drastically reduced population cap. If they ever did increase population cap again, there would not be enough players to lock pop it until primetime, and depending on how large of a pop increase, it's possible it wouldn't fill at primetime. You could gather all the current ESO PC NA PvPers into one 2017 level population cap campaign and it wouldn't even be half filled. PvP population is only getting decimated year after year, and it's not only typical attrition for older games.

That population in the image is the same population at this time every work day for this cycle, and that's what the map looks like for the type of fights you'll get, either stack the side that's PvDooring that cycle, get 70v1 zerged on a resource, or play another game(which is the choice most have made). That's a massive dip from just last year, an insurmountable dip from 8 years ago. At this pace, we'll be doing 30v30v30 Cyrodiil in 2028 with NA late night being one side stacked at 30v5v5 at best.

Lastly, to your point that "The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction."

The populations are low because no one PvPs on ESO anymore. Even the old players that come back to check it out quit within weeks.

I disagree with every point you tried to make. Vengeance mode will be the death of PvP in ESO and, as a couple others have said, will likely be one of the last major changes ZOS makes to ESO before the game shuts down.

You can disagree with reality all you want, but it wins in the long run, sorry

There is no such thing as "reality" or "common sense". What's reality and common sense to one person is often totally different for another. I could give many examples to prove my point, but political and economic issues are just one example of how informed, educated people can look at the same data and arrive at completely different conclusions.

MorallyBipolar · September 2

LPapirius wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

Permanent Vengeance is the only thing that will save the PvP population. PC NA is down 50% YoY outside of Primetime

And to build off that side convo, yes, implying there's a one-way correlation like that while denying the possibility of the inverse being true is heavily fallacious

Mandated vengeance mode will be the death of ESO PvP, and probably the last major change ZOS makes before ESO is shut down all together.

The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction.

ZOS could fix current live PvP if they put in the resources required to do it. If ZOS doesn't already know exactly what's causing the performance issues they're not the AAA studio we've all been told they are.

The population is lower than last year even when you factor in queue count. It's not a tenable path to not put forward Vengeance as a permanent mode. Between performance issues, balance issues, and factions treating the main campaign like a side campaign and nightcapping religiously—pvp population is in the crater. People log on see a map one color and get zerged down when touching a resource and go play another game, and the more people play other games, the less ESO has pull over their time.

And with a smaller pvp population, comes fewer people to counter the voices of the PvErs/some PvPers who prefer Vengeance.

And if Vengeance was offered as a permanent mode side-by-side with existing campaigns, Vengeance will be the most populated, as the people who do not like Vengeance will just play there as it will be the most populated.

To really hammer this home, not having locked pop for DC or EP at a little past 12 on a Saturday night is alarming. That's with a drastically reduced population cap. If they ever did increase population cap again, there would not be enough players to lock pop it until primetime, and depending on how large of a pop increase, it's possible it wouldn't fill at primetime. You could gather all the current ESO PC NA PvPers into one 2017 level population cap campaign and it wouldn't even be half filled. PvP population is only getting decimated year after year, and it's not only typical attrition for older games.

That population in the image is the same population at this time every work day for this cycle, and that's what the map looks like for the type of fights you'll get, either stack the side that's PvDooring that cycle, get 70v1 zerged on a resource, or play another game(which is the choice most have made). That's a massive dip from just last year, an insurmountable dip from 8 years ago. At this pace, we'll be doing 30v30v30 Cyrodiil in 2028 with NA late night being one side stacked at 30v5v5 at best.

Lastly, to your point that "The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction."

The populations are low because no one PvPs on ESO anymore. Even the old players that come back to check it out quit within weeks.

I disagree with every point you tried to make. Vengeance mode will be the death of PvP in ESO and, as a couple others have said, will likely be one of the last major changes ZOS makes to ESO before the game shuts down.

You can disagree with reality all you want, but it wins in the long run, sorry

What you believe isn't necessarily reality. When PvP in ESO dies so does the entire game.

For me this is 100% the case. When ESO PvP dies the game is dead to me. I consider vengeance mode to be not worth my time and is a totally different game than what I've invested a decade of my gaming time to and I will not play vengeance no matter what. I know they can fix the game they already have if they wanted to, so nothing less than that will work for me.

So ya, for me when PvP in ESO dies so does ESO as far as I'm concerned. Sure, ESO could exist for a long time with casuals coming and going and occassionally buying from the crown store, but most of the whales will not stick around and that means less new content and less quality content and even less hardware support going forward.

People aren't realizing how decoupling PvP from PvE with vengeance mode will impact the entire game, even PvE. If vengeance becomes mandated there will be zero incentive for people to PvE if they want to play in cyrodiil going forward. No reason to ever buy anything from the crown store etc. And if they gate Cyrodiil behind a special fee to cover the costs of keeping it going, how do you think that's going to go over? Be honest now.

In many respects, when PvP in ESO dies, so does all of ESO for all intents and purposes. And vengeance mode is the death of open world PvP in ESO.

Joy_Division wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Bogaisha wrote: »

Permanent Vengeance is the only thing that will save the PvP population. PC NA is down 50% YoY outside of Primetime

And to build off that side convo, yes, implying there's a one-way correlation like that while denying the possibility of the inverse being true is heavily fallacious

Mandated vengeance mode will be the death of ESO PvP, and probably the last major change ZOS makes before ESO is shut down all together.

The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction.

ZOS could fix current live PvP if they put in the resources required to do it. If ZOS doesn't already know exactly what's causing the performance issues they're not the AAA studio we've all been told they are.

The population is lower than last year even when you factor in queue count. It's not a tenable path to not put forward Vengeance as a permanent mode. Between performance issues, balance issues, and factions treating the main campaign like a side campaign and nightcapping religiously—pvp population is in the crater. People log on see a map one color and get zerged down when touching a resource and go play another game, and the more people play other games, the less ESO has pull over their time.

And with a smaller pvp population, comes fewer people to counter the voices of the PvErs/some PvPers who prefer Vengeance.

And if Vengeance was offered as a permanent mode side-by-side with existing campaigns, Vengeance will be the most populated, as the people who do not like Vengeance will just play there as it will be the most populated.

To really hammer this home, not having locked pop for DC or EP at a little past 12 on a Saturday night is alarming. That's with a drastically reduced population cap. If they ever did increase population cap again, there would not be enough players to lock pop it until primetime, and depending on how large of a pop increase, it's possible it wouldn't fill at primetime. You could gather all the current ESO PC NA PvPers into one 2017 level population cap campaign and it wouldn't even be half filled. PvP population is only getting decimated year after year, and it's not only typical attrition for older games.

That population in the image is the same population at this time every work day for this cycle, and that's what the map looks like for the type of fights you'll get, either stack the side that's PvDooring that cycle, get 70v1 zerged on a resource, or play another game(which is the choice most have made). That's a massive dip from just last year, an insurmountable dip from 8 years ago. At this pace, we'll be doing 30v30v30 Cyrodiil in 2028 with NA late night being one side stacked at 30v5v5 at best.

Lastly, to your point that "The current PvP populations are low because ZOS' pop caps are unrealistically low at 60-80 players/faction."

The populations are low because no one PvPs on ESO anymore. Even the old players that come back to check it out quit within weeks.

I disagree with every point you tried to make. Vengeance mode will be the death of PvP in ESO and, as a couple others have said, will likely be one of the last major changes ZOS makes to ESO before the game shuts down.

You can disagree with reality all you want, but it wins in the long run, sorry

What you believe isn't necessarily reality. When PvP in ESO dies so does the entire game.

Lol wut?

MorallyBipolar · September 2

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Vengeance campaign, meant for testing high volumes of players in Cyrodiil, returns September 22nd-29th. Great!
The Undaunted Celebration, the most grindy, and one of the most popular, PvE events returns September 18th-30th.

So PvP, already struggling, is supposed to be getting one of its rare performance tests during the biggest, or at least one of the biggest, PvE events of the year. Can't wait for lower population numbers to be blamed on overall lack of interest, just like lower WM pop earlier this year (when WM is up there with Witches Festival for worthless rewards).

I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist but surely they can't be this clueless?

If all of ESO share a limited server capacity, then it makes sense to have both events going same time.

I remember when they told us that PvP and PvE were on seperate servers. Then over years and years we all saw how PvP performance declined with the addition of every new PvE expansion. So ya. Whatever.

Well you release new bloated sets and skills each dlc launch and power creep the game by tacking on system after system. No wonder the game cant handle modern skills, set bonuses, passives, status effects, etc you name it. Power creep is a tactic for horizontal progression games to FEEL like people are seeing vertical progression. Oh i got stronger because look I can 1 shot zone mobs now, or hey we do this trial faster.

People see vengeance as carebear land, but in reality they are far better base unmorphed skills that help cut out the power creep. Not to mention PvP having its own set of skills lets us remain away from the PvE crowd demanding power creep each patch. If you can get past all of the conspiracies and see vengeance for what it would be once they add the other systems back, its not much different than live pvp except with the fat trimmed off skills.

At a certain point they need to test what happens to the server when sets and stat changes affect skills, so its not like vengeance wont get there if it keeps being developed.

Even if they do give up, it at most would replace the 0 population u50 and nocp servers with a single vengeance learning server. Then youd probably have GH and the blackreach campaigns for endgame dlc proc ballgroup haven.
All i know is if current vengeance replaces all pvp like the conspiracy theorists say, then suddenly I never have to buy eso+ again or any future dlc......so doubt zos is going to do this.

Now explain why ZOS has never even tried limiting heal and shield stacking to see how that one simple change would impact performance.

aetherix8 · September 2

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Vengeance campaign, meant for testing high volumes of players in Cyrodiil, returns September 22nd-29th. Great!
The Undaunted Celebration, the most grindy, and one of the most popular, PvE events returns September 18th-30th.

So PvP, already struggling, is supposed to be getting one of its rare performance tests during the biggest, or at least one of the biggest, PvE events of the year. Can't wait for lower population numbers to be blamed on overall lack of interest, just like lower WM pop earlier this year (when WM is up there with Witches Festival for worthless rewards).

I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist but surely they can't be this clueless?

If all of ESO share a limited server capacity, then it makes sense to have both events going same time.

I remember when they told us that PvP and PvE were on seperate servers. Then over years and years we all saw how PvP performance declined with the addition of every new PvE expansion. So ya. Whatever.

Well you release new bloated sets and skills each dlc launch and power creep the game by tacking on system after system. No wonder the game cant handle modern skills, set bonuses, passives, status effects, etc you name it. Power creep is a tactic for horizontal progression games to FEEL like people are seeing vertical progression. Oh i got stronger because look I can 1 shot zone mobs now, or hey we do this trial faster.

People see vengeance as carebear land, but in reality they are far better base unmorphed skills that help cut out the power creep. Not to mention PvP having its own set of skills lets us remain away from the PvE crowd demanding power creep each patch. If you can get past all of the conspiracies and see vengeance for what it would be once they add the other systems back, its not much different than live pvp except with the fat trimmed off skills.

At a certain point they need to test what happens to the server when sets and stat changes affect skills, so its not like vengeance wont get there if it keeps being developed.

Even if they do give up, it at most would replace the 0 population u50 and nocp servers with a single vengeance learning server. Then youd probably have GH and the blackreach campaigns for endgame dlc proc ballgroup haven.
All i know is if current vengeance replaces all pvp like the conspiracy theorists say, then suddenly I never have to buy eso+ again or any future dlc......so doubt zos is going to do this.

Now explain why ZOS has never even tried limiting heal and shield stacking to see how that one simple change would impact performance.

This whole reducing of performance issues to heal/shield stacking does ring a bell. Before the infamous no-proc campaign, ZOS did test several ideas and some of them made it to live, like 12m groups. But overall, it did nothing to improve the performance.

At the time, people were having plenty of ideas as to what causes lag (procs!!! cross-healing!!! u name it). ZOS went on and tested those ideas to no avail performance-wise. This time, they approach the problem differently and I’m glad they do. It isn’t a whack-a-mole with random ideas anymore; it is a thorough review of the entire mode and the different systems that compose it.

Players whose skies are already falling coz Vengeance “will be permanent” should chill. I should be the most happy with how ZOS brands Vengeance a “new campaign” but I’m not coz this might yet turn out to be meaningless. Time will tell.