MincMincMinc wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

The ability is rarely worth casting/slotting now for both PVP and PVE as it only lasts 2 seconds instead of 4, the base damage is near zero, and it has an abnormally low execute threshold of 20%. I think the execute threshold should be buffed to 33%, or the base damage should be increased.

I understand why, but we shouldn't be doing this type of adjustment.

The skill should be its 4s version and remain a unique playstyle. Making every skill the same boring copy and paste template playstyle is no different than making the whole game vengeance. There used to be a time in this game when different classes each had their own playstyle.

For example when warden came out they started gutting all of the unique sustain methods the base classes had and forced everyone to have a boring guaranteed over time sustain model. You know things like sorc used to stack max stats with little regen, instead of being a constant guaranteed model, it was more of a large cap deficit model. You would exchange resources to your max and then burn it down for a while and repeat.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

The ability is rarely worth casting/slotting now for both PVP and PVE as it only lasts 2 seconds instead of 4, the base damage is near zero, and it has an abnormally low execute threshold of 20%. I think the execute threshold should be buffed to 33%, or the base damage should be increased.

I understand why, but we shouldn't be doing this type of adjustment.

The skill should be its 4s version and remain a unique playstyle. Making every skill the same boring copy and paste template playstyle is no different than making the whole game vengeance. There used to be a time in this game when different classes each had their own playstyle.

For example when warden came out they started gutting all of the unique sustain methods the base classes had and forced everyone to have a boring guaranteed over time sustain model. You know things like sorc used to stack max stats with little regen, instead of being a constant guaranteed model, it was more of a large cap deficit model. You would exchange resources to your max and then burn it down for a while and repeat.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

The ability is rarely worth casting/slotting now for both PVP and PVE as it only lasts 2 seconds instead of 4, the base damage is near zero, and it has an abnormally low execute threshold of 20%. I think the execute threshold should be buffed to 33%, or the base damage should be increased.

I understand why, but we shouldn't be doing this type of adjustment.

The skill should be its 4s version and remain a unique playstyle. Making every skill the same boring copy and paste template playstyle is no different than making the whole game vengeance. There used to be a time in this game when different classes each had their own playstyle.

For example when warden came out they started gutting all of the unique sustain methods the base classes had and forced everyone to have a boring guaranteed over time sustain model. You know things like sorc used to stack max stats with little regen, instead of being a constant guaranteed model, it was more of a large cap deficit model. You would exchange resources to your max and then burn it down for a while and repeat.

Having two identical morphs is stupid. You can easily keep 1 of them in line with the unique delayed burst and make another one a more traditional execute or something like you mentioned in your rework that is an attack modifier. Having them both do basically the same thing and be terrible isn't good for the skill. Regardless of what is done, the threshold for the execute needs to be bumped up to 33%.

Yeah Its remnants of the old days with the mag return, same thing with the resource return overload.

Executioner
0.54223 dmg/wd at 100% hp
2.71115 dmg/wd at 0%
at 20% executioner hits for 0.54223*(100%+240%) = 1.843582 dmg/wd

Fury
0.40675 dmg/wd + 1.4914 dmg/wd under 20% == 1.89815 dmg/wd

The damage is still relevant, but the low 20% window was originally chosen for the 4s timeable version to pair with curse and frags. So if they upped the 20% to 33% you would have to readjust to compensate. Lets try your 33% against executioner
at 33% executioner hits for 0.54223*(100%+136%) = 1.28 dmg/wd which is basically a dizzy swing. If we bump fury up to 33% it basically will have to be cut down in damage to tooltip the same as dizzy swing.

IMO you shouldn't have the timed delay if we have a changing scale based on the enemy's hp. So if you did make another morph be a generic skill than youd be looking at copying impale's 25% and scaling up to 330%

MincMincMinc wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

The ability is rarely worth casting/slotting now for both PVP and PVE as it only lasts 2 seconds instead of 4, the base damage is near zero, and it has an abnormally low execute threshold of 20%. I think the execute threshold should be buffed to 33%, or the base damage should be increased.

I understand why, but we shouldn't be doing this type of adjustment.

The skill should be its 4s version and remain a unique playstyle. Making every skill the same boring copy and paste template playstyle is no different than making the whole game vengeance. There used to be a time in this game when different classes each had their own playstyle.

For example when warden came out they started gutting all of the unique sustain methods the base classes had and forced everyone to have a boring guaranteed over time sustain model. You know things like sorc used to stack max stats with little regen, instead of being a constant guaranteed model, it was more of a large cap deficit model. You would exchange resources to your max and then burn it down for a while and repeat.

Having two identical morphs is stupid. You can easily keep 1 of them in line with the unique delayed burst and make another one a more traditional execute or something like you mentioned in your rework that is an attack modifier. Having them both do basically the same thing and be terrible isn't good for the skill. Regardless of what is done, the threshold for the execute needs to be bumped up to 33%.

Yeah Its remnants of the old days with the mag return, same thing with the resource return overload.

Executioner
0.54223 dmg/wd at 100% hp
2.71115 dmg/wd at 0%
at 20% executioner hits for 0.54223*(100%+240%) = 1.843582 dmg/wd

Fury
0.40675 dmg/wd + 1.4914 dmg/wd under 20% == 1.89815 dmg/wd

The damage is still relevant, but the low 20% window was originally chosen for the 4s timeable version to pair with curse and frags. So if they upped the 20% to 33% you would have to readjust to compensate. Lets try your 33% against executioner
at 33% executioner hits for 0.54223*(100%+136%) = 1.28 dmg/wd which is basically a dizzy swing. If we bump fury up to 33% it basically will have to be cut down in damage to tooltip the same as dizzy swing.

IMO you shouldn't have the timed delay if we have a changing scale based on the enemy's hp. So if you did make another morph be a generic skill than youd be looking at copying impale's 25% and scaling up to 330%

• Shock damage increased by 33% from 870 to 1161, same starting value as Impale, Killer's Blade, Executioner, and Reverse Slash.
• Execute threshold changed from 20% to 25%.
• Execute Shock damage increased by 12% from 3195 to 3593.
• Total damage equals 4754, 5% weaker than Impale which I'd want to start from 33% HP and get a new auxillary effect.
• Aoe execute Shock damage increased by 43% from 695 to 999, this is mostly relevant for the spammable version of Endless Fury below.
• This ability and all morphs have a 3x chance to apply concussed (30%).
• Cost determined by highest max resource (apply this to all Class Executes, not just Sorc's).

• Morph: Significantly increases the damage dealt to other enemies nearby.
• Call down lightning to strike an enemy, dealing 870 1161 Shock Damage. If the enemy falls to or below 20% 25% Health within 2 seconds of being struck, an explosion deals an additional 3195 3593 Shock Damage to them and all nearby enemies.
• This ability has a higher chance to apply the Concussed status effect.

• Morph: HP threshold increased from 25% to 33%, but no longer has delayed damage. Reduces cost and restores Magicka or Stamina if the target dies, whichever is higher.
• Call down lightning to strike an enemy, dealing 870 1161 Shock Damage. If the enemy is at or below 33% Health deal an additional 3195 3593 Shock Damage to them and 695 999 Shock Damage to all nearby enemies.
• If any enemy is killed within 5 seconds of being hit with this ability, you restore 4860 3200 Magicka or 3200 Stamina, whichever maximum is higher.
• This ability has a higher chance to apply the Concussed status effect.

• Morph: Increased cost, but always deals damage to nearby enemies increasing based on missing health.
• Call down lightning to strike an enemy, dealing 870 1161 Shock Damage and 695 999 Shock Damage to nearby enemies which increases by up to 50% more based on missing health.
• This ability has a higher chance to apply the Concussed status effect.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

The ability is rarely worth casting/slotting now for both PVP and PVE as it only lasts 2 seconds instead of 4, the base damage is near zero, and it has an abnormally low execute threshold of 20%. I think the execute threshold should be buffed to 33%, or the base damage should be increased.

I understand why, but we shouldn't be doing this type of adjustment.

The skill should be its 4s version and remain a unique playstyle. Making every skill the same boring copy and paste template playstyle is no different than making the whole game vengeance. There used to be a time in this game when different classes each had their own playstyle.

For example when warden came out they started gutting all of the unique sustain methods the base classes had and forced everyone to have a boring guaranteed over time sustain model. You know things like sorc used to stack max stats with little regen, instead of being a constant guaranteed model, it was more of a large cap deficit model. You would exchange resources to your max and then burn it down for a while and repeat.

Honestly, I agree. They should revert the duration nerf and leave the threshold at 20% hp. It was a unique execute, and it wasn't overpowered, especially compared with Templar beam execute which does insane damage...

You need to do SOMETHING with one of the redundant morphs, though. This is a classic scenario of two skills that do basically the same thing, neither of which is particularly strong or interesting.

The sustain morph needs to be turned into a spammable and/or a better actual execute ability for PvE (because this skill has always been dogwater for PvE and PvE Sorcs shouldn't be made to pay for the kill-stealing crimes of PvP Sorcs).

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

The ability is rarely worth casting/slotting now for both PVP and PVE as it only lasts 2 seconds instead of 4, the base damage is near zero, and it has an abnormally low execute threshold of 20%. I think the execute threshold should be buffed to 33%, or the base damage should be increased.

I understand why, but we shouldn't be doing this type of adjustment.

The skill should be its 4s version and remain a unique playstyle. Making every skill the same boring copy and paste template playstyle is no different than making the whole game vengeance. There used to be a time in this game when different classes each had their own playstyle.

For example when warden came out they started gutting all of the unique sustain methods the base classes had and forced everyone to have a boring guaranteed over time sustain model. You know things like sorc used to stack max stats with little regen, instead of being a constant guaranteed model, it was more of a large cap deficit model. You would exchange resources to your max and then burn it down for a while and repeat.

Honestly, I agree. They should revert the duration nerf and leave the threshold at 20% hp. It was a unique execute, and it wasn't overpowered, especially compared with Templar beam execute which does insane damage...

You need to do SOMETHING with one of the redundant morphs, though. This is a classic scenario of two skills that do basically the same thing, neither of which is particularly strong or interesting.

The sustain morph needs to be turned into a spammable and/or a better actual execute ability for PvE (because this skill has always been dogwater for PvE and PvE Sorcs shouldn't be made to pay for the kill-stealing crimes of PvP Sorcs).

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The animation is an instant cast, it is no different than any other instant cast. It plays and cancels the same. Just remember that secretly it is a projectile skill.

1. Projectile Speed (PS) = speed at which the projectile travels through the air to your target, eg, 28 meters per second.
2. Minimum projectile travel time (MPTT) = a locked in time that the projectile must complete before landing, even if the caster is right on top of the target. This is implemented case by case, most likely as a balancing/counterplay design choice.

• Impale has 0.3s MPTT vs the instant 0.0s hit of Killer's Blade.
• Crystal Frag has 0.5s MPTT, making it 0.2s slower than Impale, and based on the 1.1s it took to land at 28m, it travels at 25m a second.
• Mage's Fury has 0.8s MPTT, at 28m it does not change so it does not seem to have PS at all or if it does, it's insanely fast to give the appearance of the damage teleporting. My guess is it's just insanely fast so that it can still be absorbed by something like Ball of Lightning. If it actually teleported to the caster, then BOL wouldn't work, although I haven't actually tested this.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The animation is an instant cast, it is no different than any other instant cast. It plays and cancels the same. Just remember that secretly it is a projectile skill.

Not exactly, instant just means what's suppose to happen, happens when you press the key instead of requiring a channel or cast time first. It does not mean it instantly lands. Wrecking Blow has a 0.8s cast time, then instantly hits. Fury has a 0.0s cast time, but has a massive delay before it hits, even in melee range.

There's 2 terms important here I'll use:

1. Projectile Speed (PS) = speed at which the projectile travels through the air to your target, eg, 28 meters per second.
2. Minimum projectile travel time (MPTT) = a locked in time that the projectile must complete before landing, even if the caster is right on top of the target. This is implemented case by case, most likely as a balancing/counterplay design choice.

MPTT is the reason why some players may prefer a melee over a ranged playstyle without realizing it. Why does Impale feel less reliable than Killer's Blade for a melee player? Why does your instant Frag miss more often than not when following up Streak vs something like Executioner? Why is Mage's Fury the absolute worst feeling execute in the game outside of spamming it from a back of zerg back when it had a 5s duration? MPTT is why.

From my memory of like 2016 patch notes, a general feeling, and some light testing, the average MPTT is between 0.2s to 0.3s. This whole MPTT thing is why not all instant ranged abilites feel equally as satisifying to cast, most likely because not all ranged skills have the same travel time or animations, thus the hit detection can feel weird, and even effect your weaving. Something like Crushing Shock has historically been praised, while Swallow Soul has been complained about as a good example.



Give or take some mileseconds, human input, and ping, you can work out what's going on here. Keep in mind to -1s between each damage instance to get the actual delays due to the Global Cooldown. Also, I did not do this multiple times, nor did I use a macro, these would be required to get more accurate numbers.

• Impale has 0.3s MPTT vs the instant 0.0s hit of Killer's Blade.
• Crystal Frag has 0.5s MPTT, making it 0.2s slower than Impale, and based on the 1.1s it took to land at 28m, it travels at 25m a second.
• Mage's Fury has 0.8s MPTT, at 28m it does not change so it does not seem to have PS at all or if it does, it's insanely fast to give the appearance of the damage teleporting. My guess is it's just insanely fast so that it can still be absorbed by something like Ball of Lightning. If it actually teleported to the caster, then BOL wouldn't work, although I haven't actually tested this.

This is why Mage's Fury feels bad the closer you are to your target, because it doesn't land any easier, it just makes it easier to counter.

Imagine a situation where you Fossilze, then follow up with Executioner, Killer's Blade, or Whirling Blades, the target would have about 1.0s to react, replace that with Mage's Fury and they have 1.8s, +80% more time to break free, and roll dodge. This is why despite being conceptually a cool ability I'd love to use even though I find it very weak, I can't, it's just way too unreliable.

If I were to improve the feeling, I'd start by lowering the MPTT from 0.8s to 0.3s, then introducing a real PS so range matters. Frag's feels quite slow, and even it takes 1.1s at 28m meaning Mage's Fury only becomes beneficial at 20m or above.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The animation is an instant cast, it is no different than any other instant cast. It plays and cancels the same. Just remember that secretly it is a projectile skill.

Not exactly, instant just means what's suppose to happen, happens when you press the key instead of requiring a channel or cast time first. It does not mean it instantly lands. Wrecking Blow has a 0.8s cast time, then instantly hits. Fury has a 0.0s cast time, but has a massive delay before it hits, even in melee range.

There's 2 terms important here I'll use:

1. Projectile Speed (PS) = speed at which the projectile travels through the air to your target, eg, 28 meters per second.
2. Minimum projectile travel time (MPTT) = a locked in time that the projectile must complete before landing, even if the caster is right on top of the target. This is implemented case by case, most likely as a balancing/counterplay design choice.

MPTT is the reason why some players may prefer a melee over a ranged playstyle without realizing it. Why does Impale feel less reliable than Killer's Blade for a melee player? Why does your instant Frag miss more often than not when following up Streak vs something like Executioner? Why is Mage's Fury the absolute worst feeling execute in the game outside of spamming it from a back of zerg back when it had a 5s duration? MPTT is why.

From my memory of like 2016 patch notes, a general feeling, and some light testing, the average MPTT is between 0.2s to 0.3s. This whole MPTT thing is why not all instant ranged abilites feel equally as satisifying to cast, most likely because not all ranged skills have the same travel time or animations, thus the hit detection can feel weird, and even effect your weaving. Something like Crushing Shock has historically been praised, while Swallow Soul has been complained about as a good example.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The animation is an instant cast, it is no different than any other instant cast. It plays and cancels the same. Just remember that secretly it is a projectile skill.

Not exactly, instant just means what's suppose to happen, happens when you press the key instead of requiring a channel or cast time first. It does not mean it instantly lands. Wrecking Blow has a 0.8s cast time, then instantly hits. Fury has a 0.0s cast time, but has a massive delay before it hits, even in melee range.

There's 2 terms important here I'll use:

1. Projectile Speed (PS) = speed at which the projectile travels through the air to your target, eg, 28 meters per second.
2. Minimum projectile travel time (MPTT) = a locked in time that the projectile must complete before landing, even if the caster is right on top of the target. This is implemented case by case, most likely as a balancing/counterplay design choice.

MPTT is the reason why some players may prefer a melee over a ranged playstyle without realizing it. Why does Impale feel less reliable than Killer's Blade for a melee player? Why does your instant Frag miss more often than not when following up Streak vs something like Executioner? Why is Mage's Fury the absolute worst feeling execute in the game outside of spamming it from a back of zerg back when it had a 5s duration? MPTT is why.

From my memory of like 2016 patch notes, a general feeling, and some light testing, the average MPTT is between 0.2s to 0.3s. This whole MPTT thing is why not all instant ranged abilites feel equally as satisifying to cast, most likely because not all ranged skills have the same travel time or animations, thus the hit detection can feel weird, and even effect your weaving. Something like Crushing Shock has historically been praised, while Swallow Soul has been complained about as a good example.

Were those CMX images from this patch? It may help to include your costs and abilities used to show when the abilites "cast".

Yes, combat metrix.

Take this as a loose test as I did not take a massive sample size, I did not intend to conclude the exact speeds, I just wanted to illustrate the general timing of different projectiles vs melee attacks. I didn't use macro's for automating exact 1s timing, and I rounded the timing to the nearest whole number, but I wouldn't be surprised if ZOS used odd numbers like "0.452s" instead of "0.4s".

My guess is the actual times from combat metrix vary between 10-50ms. You can see this in the Killer's Blade test, shows 0.988s which shouldn't be possible with the 1s GCD, 12ms is so neglible, we can summize it was relatively instant. Same goes for Fury which shows 0.78s and 0.8s, probably.. maybe, coded as 0.8s.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

But yes i suppose instant cast is a very misleading label. As the cast is "instant", but for projectiles they are far from being actually instant as you described well.

I think a lot of players have been moving or leaning towards melee for this fact that the ranged playstyle is dying out. Speed has power crept so far that the advantage of kiting is practically lost. Animations are rampant in the game and overly expressive making it harder to watch and time the PS and MPTT against opponents you sometimes can't even see their character model due to procs and animations wiggling their character. Probably also doesn't help that subclassing pushing players towards animal's deep fissure and assassin surprise attack, luckily jabs hardly works so we at least aren't seeing that everywhere like people were worried about with pelican's setup spreading early on in PvP.

Oh yeah and I only used a few examples. Sorc has some pretty bad delays, but I bet that was all implemented in the beginning as a balancing decision for pure classing. Delayed burst was their thing. I'm sure Frag's is one of the worst in the game, I have a feeling Grim Focus is slightly faster but still slower than spammables like Impale. There's skills like Snipe (which can work to that playstyles favour), Skulls, and Cliff Racer as more obviously annoying to use skills.

Actually Cliff Racer is an interesting one, I bet you it follows the same rule as Mage's Fury with no speed, only a minimum, because it spawns near your target instead of from the caster and funny enough, everyone hates the feeling of that skill too. I wonder why? :P

I'm also curious how Crushing Shock works, to me, it feels like it's the same speed at any distance, probably around 0.2 - 0.3s, which is probably why it feels good to weave.

Also, this whole thing is only hightened when you consider how forgiving dodge rolling is for the dodger instead of the attacker. This is just a feeling, not tested, but my theory is if your target dodges at any point during the time your projectile is in the air, the entire attack will be dodged.

Imagine you see your target dodge 28m away, you cast Frags mid dodge roll animation, it takes 1.1s to get to the target and by the time it does, they already completed their dodge 0.5s in the past, they're clearly standing upright. Despite this, you see/hear Frags hit yet it's dodged when they're not dodging. This doesn't apply to channels like Radiant Oppression as skills like this seem to redo the hit detection every tick or the entire skill would be useless. I bet this same thing happens with Flurry.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The animation is an instant cast, it is no different than any other instant cast. It plays and cancels the same. Just remember that secretly it is a projectile skill.

Not exactly, instant just means what's suppose to happen, happens when you press the key instead of requiring a channel or cast time first. It does not mean it instantly lands. Wrecking Blow has a 0.8s cast time, then instantly hits. Fury has a 0.0s cast time, but has a massive delay before it hits, even in melee range.

There's 2 terms important here I'll use:

1. Projectile Speed (PS) = speed at which the projectile travels through the air to your target, eg, 28 meters per second.
2. Minimum projectile travel time (MPTT) = a locked in time that the projectile must complete before landing, even if the caster is right on top of the target. This is implemented case by case, most likely as a balancing/counterplay design choice.

MPTT is the reason why some players may prefer a melee over a ranged playstyle without realizing it. Why does Impale feel less reliable than Killer's Blade for a melee player? Why does your instant Frag miss more often than not when following up Streak vs something like Executioner? Why is Mage's Fury the absolute worst feeling execute in the game outside of spamming it from a back of zerg back when it had a 5s duration? MPTT is why.

From my memory of like 2016 patch notes, a general feeling, and some light testing, the average MPTT is between 0.2s to 0.3s. This whole MPTT thing is why not all instant ranged abilites feel equally as satisifying to cast, most likely because not all ranged skills have the same travel time or animations, thus the hit detection can feel weird, and even effect your weaving. Something like Crushing Shock has historically been praised, while Swallow Soul has been complained about as a good example.



Give or take some mileseconds, human input, and ping, you can work out what's going on here. Keep in mind to -1s between each damage instance to get the actual delays due to the Global Cooldown. Also, I did not do this multiple times, nor did I use a macro, these would be required to get more accurate numbers.

• Impale has 0.3s MPTT vs the instant 0.0s hit of Killer's Blade.
• Crystal Frag has 0.5s MPTT, making it 0.2s slower than Impale, and based on the 1.1s it took to land at 28m, it travels at 25m a second.
• Mage's Fury has 0.8s MPTT, at 28m it does not change so it does not seem to have PS at all or if it does, it's insanely fast to give the appearance of the damage teleporting. My guess is it's just insanely fast so that it can still be absorbed by something like Ball of Lightning. If it actually teleported to the caster, then BOL wouldn't work, although I haven't actually tested this.

This is why Mage's Fury feels bad the closer you are to your target, because it doesn't land any easier, it just makes it easier to counter.

Imagine a situation where you Fossilze, then follow up with Executioner, Killer's Blade, or Whirling Blades, the target would have about 1.0s to react, replace that with Mage's Fury and they have 1.8s, +80% more time to break free, and roll dodge. This is why despite being conceptually a cool ability I'd love to use even though I find it very weak, I can't, it's just way too unreliable.

If I were to improve the feeling, I'd start by lowering the MPTT from 0.8s to 0.3s, then introducing a real PS so range matters. Frag's feels quite slow, and even it takes 1.1s at 28m meaning Mage's Fury only becomes beneficial at 20m or above.

This is insanely insightful and explains a lot why whenever I used fury/wrath it always shows up with "dodged" or "missed". my ping (minimum 300ms, typically closer to 400-500ms) + the GCD of 1 second + the 0.8s MPTT essentially meant that anyone I cast it on had a minimum 2.1 second window to dodge roll my "execute". No wonder it never hit anything. Even with my horrible ping, I would have enough time to break free and dodge roll that execute cast, without needing slippery champion point slottable...

100% agree on reducing the MPTT of fury.

Also interesting on frags MPTT too, always felt unreliable compared to crushing shock unless the target was stunned or not paying attention, now I know why. It basically has the same dodge window that fury does when I cast it with my ping.

Also explains why I've wanted to make melee magsorc work this whole time, true instant abilities (basically all melee abilities without a built in cast time) have always been super reliable for those with high ping than ranged abilities (outside of specifically force pulse/morphs), especially those with long MPTT.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Minimum Travel Times, Cast Times on ultimates... things that the game never needed yet here we are dealing with them and their baggage anyway.