Turtle_Bot wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

The change to RoA should have been to add "to monsters only" condition to the set. That is the only solution that makes any sense.

People say things like this because they think it is going to make ball groups just go away from PvP. I hate to break it to everyone but they could get rid of DC and ROA and there will still be ball groups. We will still find alternative sets. You're not going to b e able to get rid of a core group of 12 people who take pride in their comp.

No. That is not what I said or why I said it. Please try to be less presumptuous in the future.

I don't have a problem with comped groups. I used to run in one of the strongest comp groups in Cyrodiil. (Tyr) But that was before Dark Convergence and RoA. We could be killed with massive coordination and some well placed negates. Changes since then have made ball groups nearly invincible and 100x more trollish.

I don't want ball groups abolished or gone. I want them to be more fair and manageable.

Fair enough - I'm almost conditioned now to read "monster only" as someone crying about ball groups.

I used to run with Tyr back in the day fwiw. I agree, and have said a lot, thatrush is broken.. ball groups are too op and need to be tuned down, etc etc.

Sure, they can remove all the pulls... but then I'd argue they need to get rid of the charms and all the other "moveable" skills/sets because it's just pure chaos. Even if they did this (to your point) ball groups would still be a thing so those who (not you) cry about ball groups... still will have to find something to complain about because balls aren't going anywhere.

FWIW, (since we have butted heads in the past over ball groups), I never had an issue with ball groups in the past (pre-Rush/DC) since it was very possible to avoid their burst/turn and burn, and long before the HoT stacking (this includes all stacking, it's just easier to say HoTs than trying to list out the 100+ things ball groups get to stack that other playstyles cannot), but introduction of Rush and other mass pull sets has removed the counter-play to their offense, while the constantly stacked sticky HoTs (and everything else) that, thanks to U35 now lasts minimum of 10-15 seconds and not just 3-5 seconds from pre-U35, has removed the counter play options to ball groups defenses outside of a lucky blue moon lottery bomb (or another ball group) that happens to catch them with their own level of damage + a negate + CC while their buffs/heals are down.

I never had an issue with what ball groups used to be, sure they were annoying and frustrating to take on, but it was possible to learn how to counter play that playstyle (side-stepping the turn and burn, avoiding the obvious choke points they were leading their targets into, timing a negate with siege-fire to remove/nullify their ground based HoTs, etc), but the power creep and game-wide combat changes ZOS has introduced into the game over the past 5+ years has basically removed all counter play to that playstyle, to the point we see now where Cyro has become nothing but ball groups and faction stacks and a few top tier super sweat 1vXers that are now doing much more duo/small scale/zerg surfing instead of being true solo like before (which is not a good thing for the longevity of PvP in this game, let alone things like server performance).

What I would like to see ZOS do would be the following:
1. Make Rush/DC (and other mass pull effects) limited to PvE only (this means no guaranteed forced choke point for a bomb which forces the strategic use of terrain and obstacles to funnel in targets)
2. Make group based sticky HoTs/shields much weaker than ground based versions (re-introduces counter play to stacked defenses since negate removes ground based effects allowing for group counter damage methods (sieges/bombs) to do their job, this would probably have to include reducing the durations of group sticky HoTs/shields back down to 3-6 seconds from their current 10-15 seconds as well)
3. Adjust the speed cap for various movement types (mounted should be 250%, sprint the current 200%, run should be only 150%, this means things like snow treaders actually has a drawback and counter play that needs real decision making on taking its permanent snare/immobilize immunity).
4. Capped to 2-3 stacks max of the same effect (this means more coordination/organization is required than just slotting 12 vigors + 6-12 regens to cover the groups HoT requirements, also leads to more skills/morphs being looked at which helps build diversity)

Probably a few other things I'm forgetting, but these 4 changes alone would reign in the current power level of ball groups to more acceptable levels, reintroduce actual skill/knowledge based counter-play to that playstyle, all while keeping the playstyle strong and having it focus much more on tactics, teamwork, coordination and organization as it's strength/advantage instead of just stacking every buff possible to achieve stats that this game's PvP was never designed around.

TL//DR:
I (and likely the majority of those who have issues with modern ball groups) don't want ball groups to be removed (outside of 1-2 specific ones that are extremely toxic in how they "play" the game), I just want to see the playstyle returned to pre-2020 levels where there's real limits on how much of a raw direct power advantage they have over everyone else. Communication + coordination should already be the main advantage of being in a comp'd group, they shouldn't need or have access to levels of raw stacked stats/effects that vastly exceed anything that anyone else can dream of having access to, even something that is supposed to be overpowered e.g. Emperor bonus (yes ball group players have more raw stats than even emperors these days, it's reached that level of absurdity).

LadyGP wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

The change to RoA should have been to add "to monsters only" condition to the set. That is the only solution that makes any sense.

People say things like this because they think it is going to make ball groups just go away from PvP. I hate to break it to everyone but they could get rid of DC and ROA and there will still be ball groups. We will still find alternative sets. You're not going to b e able to get rid of a core group of 12 people who take pride in their comp.

No. That is not what I said or why I said it. Please try to be less presumptuous in the future.

I don't have a problem with comped groups. I used to run in one of the strongest comp groups in Cyrodiil. (Tyr) But that was before Dark Convergence and RoA. We could be killed with massive coordination and some well placed negates. Changes since then have made ball groups nearly invincible and 100x more trollish.

I don't want ball groups abolished or gone. I want them to be more fair and manageable.

Fair enough - I'm almost conditioned now to read "monster only" as someone crying about ball groups.

I used to run with Tyr back in the day fwiw. I agree, and have said a lot, thatrush is broken.. ball groups are too op and need to be tuned down, etc etc.

Sure, they can remove all the pulls... but then I'd argue they need to get rid of the charms and all the other "moveable" skills/sets because it's just pure chaos. Even if they did this (to your point) ball groups would still be a thing so those who (not you) cry about ball groups... still will have to find something to complain about because balls aren't going anywhere.

FWIW, (since we have butted heads in the past over ball groups), I never had an issue with ball groups in the past (pre-Rush/DC) since it was very possible to avoid their burst/turn and burn, and long before the HoT stacking (this includes all stacking, it's just easier to say HoTs than trying to list out the 100+ things ball groups get to stack that other playstyles cannot), but introduction of Rush and other mass pull sets has removed the counter-play to their offense, while the constantly stacked sticky HoTs (and everything else) that, thanks to U35 now lasts minimum of 10-15 seconds and not just 3-5 seconds from pre-U35, has removed the counter play options to ball groups defenses outside of a lucky blue moon lottery bomb (or another ball group) that happens to catch them with their own level of damage + a negate + CC while their buffs/heals are down.

I never had an issue with what ball groups used to be, sure they were annoying and frustrating to take on, but it was possible to learn how to counter play that playstyle (side-stepping the turn and burn, avoiding the obvious choke points they were leading their targets into, timing a negate with siege-fire to remove/nullify their ground based HoTs, etc), but the power creep and game-wide combat changes ZOS has introduced into the game over the past 5+ years has basically removed all counter play to that playstyle, to the point we see now where Cyro has become nothing but ball groups and faction stacks and a few top tier super sweat 1vXers that are now doing much more duo/small scale/zerg surfing instead of being true solo like before (which is not a good thing for the longevity of PvP in this game, let alone things like server performance).

What I would like to see ZOS do would be the following:
1. Make Rush/DC (and other mass pull effects) limited to PvE only (this means no guaranteed forced choke point for a bomb which forces the strategic use of terrain and obstacles to funnel in targets)
2. Make group based sticky HoTs/shields much weaker than ground based versions (re-introduces counter play to stacked defenses since negate removes ground based effects allowing for group counter damage methods (sieges/bombs) to do their job, this would probably have to include reducing the durations of group sticky HoTs/shields back down to 3-6 seconds from their current 10-15 seconds as well)
3. Adjust the speed cap for various movement types (mounted should be 250%, sprint the current 200%, run should be only 150%, this means things like snow treaders actually has a drawback and counter play that needs real decision making on taking its permanent snare/immobilize immunity).
4. Capped to 2-3 stacks max of the same effect (this means more coordination/organization is required than just slotting 12 vigors + 6-12 regens to cover the groups HoT requirements, also leads to more skills/morphs being looked at which helps build diversity)

Probably a few other things I'm forgetting, but these 4 changes alone would reign in the current power level of ball groups to more acceptable levels, reintroduce actual skill/knowledge based counter-play to that playstyle, all while keeping the playstyle strong and having it focus much more on tactics, teamwork, coordination and organization as it's strength/advantage instead of just stacking every buff possible to achieve stats that this game's PvP was never designed around.

TL//DR:
I (and likely the majority of those who have issues with modern ball groups) don't want ball groups to be removed (outside of 1-2 specific ones that are extremely toxic in how they "play" the game), I just want to see the playstyle returned to pre-2020 levels where there's real limits on how much of a raw direct power advantage they have over everyone else. Communication + coordination should already be the main advantage of being in a comp'd group, they shouldn't need or have access to levels of raw stacked stats/effects that vastly exceed anything that anyone else can dream of having access to, even something that is supposed to be overpowered e.g. Emperor bonus (yes ball group players have more raw stats than even emperors these days, it's reached that level of absurdity).

Honestly - I have zero issues with anything in this list.

There are about 20 different ways they could work on balancing out ball groups being OP while keeping ball groups still in the game. That could be changes to the pulls, CC immunity, removing rush/dc all together, hot stacks, etc, etc.

I'm supportive of your general sentiment in your message. The 2020 era was insanley fun as a ball group person (it was hard af to be a good ball group and "meet the standards"). Now - anyone can run a near unkillable ball group with zero time/dedication/skill (which is why you see so many balls now).

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

The change to RoA should have been to add "to monsters only" condition to the set. That is the only solution that makes any sense.

People say things like this because they think it is going to make ball groups just go away from PvP. I hate to break it to everyone but they could get rid of DC and ROA and there will still be ball groups. We will still find alternative sets. You're not going to b e able to get rid of a core group of 12 people who take pride in their comp.

No. That is not what I said or why I said it. Please try to be less presumptuous in the future.

I don't have a problem with comped groups. I used to run in one of the strongest comp groups in Cyrodiil. (Tyr) But that was before Dark Convergence and RoA. We could be killed with massive coordination and some well placed negates. Changes since then have made ball groups nearly invincible and 100x more trollish.

I don't want ball groups abolished or gone. I want them to be more fair and manageable.

Fair enough - I'm almost conditioned now to read "monster only" as someone crying about ball groups.

I used to run with Tyr back in the day fwiw. I agree, and have said a lot, thatrush is broken.. ball groups are too op and need to be tuned down, etc etc.

Sure, they can remove all the pulls... but then I'd argue they need to get rid of the charms and all the other "moveable" skills/sets because it's just pure chaos. Even if they did this (to your point) ball groups would still be a thing so those who (not you) cry about ball groups... still will have to find something to complain about because balls aren't going anywhere.

FWIW, (since we have butted heads in the past over ball groups), I never had an issue with ball groups in the past (pre-Rush/DC) since it was very possible to avoid their burst/turn and burn, and long before the HoT stacking (this includes all stacking, it's just easier to say HoTs than trying to list out the 100+ things ball groups get to stack that other playstyles cannot), but introduction of Rush and other mass pull sets has removed the counter-play to their offense, while the constantly stacked sticky HoTs (and everything else) that, thanks to U35 now lasts minimum of 10-15 seconds and not just 3-5 seconds from pre-U35, has removed the counter play options to ball groups defenses outside of a lucky blue moon lottery bomb (or another ball group) that happens to catch them with their own level of damage + a negate + CC while their buffs/heals are down.

I never had an issue with what ball groups used to be, sure they were annoying and frustrating to take on, but it was possible to learn how to counter play that playstyle (side-stepping the turn and burn, avoiding the obvious choke points they were leading their targets into, timing a negate with siege-fire to remove/nullify their ground based HoTs, etc), but the power creep and game-wide combat changes ZOS has introduced into the game over the past 5+ years has basically removed all counter play to that playstyle, to the point we see now where Cyro has become nothing but ball groups and faction stacks and a few top tier super sweat 1vXers that are now doing much more duo/small scale/zerg surfing instead of being true solo like before (which is not a good thing for the longevity of PvP in this game, let alone things like server performance).

What I would like to see ZOS do would be the following:
1. Make Rush/DC (and other mass pull effects) limited to PvE only (this means no guaranteed forced choke point for a bomb which forces the strategic use of terrain and obstacles to funnel in targets)
2. Make group based sticky HoTs/shields much weaker than ground based versions (re-introduces counter play to stacked defenses since negate removes ground based effects allowing for group counter damage methods (sieges/bombs) to do their job, this would probably have to include reducing the durations of group sticky HoTs/shields back down to 3-6 seconds from their current 10-15 seconds as well)
3. Adjust the speed cap for various movement types (mounted should be 250%, sprint the current 200%, run should be only 150%, this means things like snow treaders actually has a drawback and counter play that needs real decision making on taking its permanent snare/immobilize immunity).
4. Capped to 2-3 stacks max of the same effect (this means more coordination/organization is required than just slotting 12 vigors + 6-12 regens to cover the groups HoT requirements, also leads to more skills/morphs being looked at which helps build diversity)

Probably a few other things I'm forgetting, but these 4 changes alone would reign in the current power level of ball groups to more acceptable levels, reintroduce actual skill/knowledge based counter-play to that playstyle, all while keeping the playstyle strong and having it focus much more on tactics, teamwork, coordination and organization as it's strength/advantage instead of just stacking every buff possible to achieve stats that this game's PvP was never designed around.

TL//DR:
I (and likely the majority of those who have issues with modern ball groups) don't want ball groups to be removed (outside of 1-2 specific ones that are extremely toxic in how they "play" the game), I just want to see the playstyle returned to pre-2020 levels where there's real limits on how much of a raw direct power advantage they have over everyone else. Communication + coordination should already be the main advantage of being in a comp'd group, they shouldn't need or have access to levels of raw stacked stats/effects that vastly exceed anything that anyone else can dream of having access to, even something that is supposed to be overpowered e.g. Emperor bonus (yes ball group players have more raw stats than even emperors these days, it's reached that level of absurdity).

Honestly - I have zero issues with anything in this list.

There are about 20 different ways they could work on balancing out ball groups being OP while keeping ball groups still in the game. That could be changes to the pulls, CC immunity, removing rush/dc all together, hot stacks, etc, etc.

I'm supportive of your general sentiment in your message. The 2020 era was insanley fun as a ball group person (it was hard af to be a good ball group and "meet the standards"). Now - anyone can run a near unkillable ball group with zero time/dedication/skill (which is why you see so many balls now).

Fighting against ball groups back then was significantly more fun for the rest of us too.

Much larger groups/pops allowed true overwhelming numbers, people were actually starting to learn how to counter play ball groups (side stepping the turn and burn, negates, sieges, avoiding natural choke points, don't blindly chase, etc), it made for a really nice back and forth fight looking back on it. Of course the super top tier ball groups would still run over everyone, but you could see the skills of those players at work to achieve that and even they had their "max numbers" where they still had to disengage or face a wipe.
It made fighting them (or at least truly kicking them out of a keep instead of waiting for them to get bored and leave) seem feasible, even to the average/casual player, which is something that is key to retaining numbers required for healthy PvP (which is something that the vengeance tests (even with their issues) has only reinforced).

And yet even in those times the forums were filled with ballgroup nerf threads talking about how unkillable and unfair they were, etc. The more things change, the more things stay the same and all of that.

I also feel like I'm taking crazy pills here with people talking about unkillable groups. Every night you see literally every ballgroup on the map get zerged-down at some point or another (unless they are dodging fights) after biting-off more than they can chew. The zone players always win in the end.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

The change to RoA should have been to add "to monsters only" condition to the set. That is the only solution that makes any sense.

People say things like this because they think it is going to make ball groups just go away from PvP. I hate to break it to everyone but they could get rid of DC and ROA and there will still be ball groups. We will still find alternative sets. You're not going to b e able to get rid of a core group of 12 people who take pride in their comp.

No. That is not what I said or why I said it. Please try to be less presumptuous in the future.

I don't have a problem with comped groups. I used to run in one of the strongest comp groups in Cyrodiil. (Tyr) But that was before Dark Convergence and RoA. We could be killed with massive coordination and some well placed negates. Changes since then have made ball groups nearly invincible and 100x more trollish.

I don't want ball groups abolished or gone. I want them to be more fair and manageable.

Fair enough - I'm almost conditioned now to read "monster only" as someone crying about ball groups.

I used to run with Tyr back in the day fwiw. I agree, and have said a lot, thatrush is broken.. ball groups are too op and need to be tuned down, etc etc.

Sure, they can remove all the pulls... but then I'd argue they need to get rid of the charms and all the other "moveable" skills/sets because it's just pure chaos. Even if they did this (to your point) ball groups would still be a thing so those who (not you) cry about ball groups... still will have to find something to complain about because balls aren't going anywhere.

FWIW, (since we have butted heads in the past over ball groups), I never had an issue with ball groups in the past (pre-Rush/DC) since it was very possible to avoid their burst/turn and burn, and long before the HoT stacking (this includes all stacking, it's just easier to say HoTs than trying to list out the 100+ things ball groups get to stack that other playstyles cannot), but introduction of Rush and other mass pull sets has removed the counter-play to their offense, while the constantly stacked sticky HoTs (and everything else) that, thanks to U35 now lasts minimum of 10-15 seconds and not just 3-5 seconds from pre-U35, has removed the counter play options to ball groups defenses outside of a lucky blue moon lottery bomb (or another ball group) that happens to catch them with their own level of damage + a negate + CC while their buffs/heals are down.

I never had an issue with what ball groups used to be, sure they were annoying and frustrating to take on, but it was possible to learn how to counter play that playstyle (side-stepping the turn and burn, avoiding the obvious choke points they were leading their targets into, timing a negate with siege-fire to remove/nullify their ground based HoTs, etc), but the power creep and game-wide combat changes ZOS has introduced into the game over the past 5+ years has basically removed all counter play to that playstyle, to the point we see now where Cyro has become nothing but ball groups and faction stacks and a few top tier super sweat 1vXers that are now doing much more duo/small scale/zerg surfing instead of being true solo like before (which is not a good thing for the longevity of PvP in this game, let alone things like server performance).

What I would like to see ZOS do would be the following:
1. Make Rush/DC (and other mass pull effects) limited to PvE only (this means no guaranteed forced choke point for a bomb which forces the strategic use of terrain and obstacles to funnel in targets)
2. Make group based sticky HoTs/shields much weaker than ground based versions (re-introduces counter play to stacked defenses since negate removes ground based effects allowing for group counter damage methods (sieges/bombs) to do their job, this would probably have to include reducing the durations of group sticky HoTs/shields back down to 3-6 seconds from their current 10-15 seconds as well)
3. Adjust the speed cap for various movement types (mounted should be 250%, sprint the current 200%, run should be only 150%, this means things like snow treaders actually has a drawback and counter play that needs real decision making on taking its permanent snare/immobilize immunity).
4. Capped to 2-3 stacks max of the same effect (this means more coordination/organization is required than just slotting 12 vigors + 6-12 regens to cover the groups HoT requirements, also leads to more skills/morphs being looked at which helps build diversity)

Probably a few other things I'm forgetting, but these 4 changes alone would reign in the current power level of ball groups to more acceptable levels, reintroduce actual skill/knowledge based counter-play to that playstyle, all while keeping the playstyle strong and having it focus much more on tactics, teamwork, coordination and organization as it's strength/advantage instead of just stacking every buff possible to achieve stats that this game's PvP was never designed around.

TL//DR:
I (and likely the majority of those who have issues with modern ball groups) don't want ball groups to be removed (outside of 1-2 specific ones that are extremely toxic in how they "play" the game), I just want to see the playstyle returned to pre-2020 levels where there's real limits on how much of a raw direct power advantage they have over everyone else. Communication + coordination should already be the main advantage of being in a comp'd group, they shouldn't need or have access to levels of raw stacked stats/effects that vastly exceed anything that anyone else can dream of having access to, even something that is supposed to be overpowered e.g. Emperor bonus (yes ball group players have more raw stats than even emperors these days, it's reached that level of absurdity).

Honestly - I have zero issues with anything in this list.

There are about 20 different ways they could work on balancing out ball groups being OP while keeping ball groups still in the game. That could be changes to the pulls, CC immunity, removing rush/dc all together, hot stacks, etc, etc.

I'm supportive of your general sentiment in your message. The 2020 era was insanley fun as a ball group person (it was hard af to be a good ball group and "meet the standards"). Now - anyone can run a near unkillable ball group with zero time/dedication/skill (which is why you see so many balls now).

Fighting against ball groups back then was significantly more fun for the rest of us too.

Much larger groups/pops allowed true overwhelming numbers, people were actually starting to learn how to counter play ball groups (side stepping the turn and burn, negates, sieges, avoiding natural choke points, don't blindly chase, etc), it made for a really nice back and forth fight looking back on it. Of course the super top tier ball groups would still run over everyone, but you could see the skills of those players at work to achieve that and even they had their "max numbers" where they still had to disengage or face a wipe.
It made fighting them (or at least truly kicking them out of a keep instead of waiting for them to get bored and leave) seem feasible, even to the average/casual player, which is something that is key to retaining numbers required for healthy PvP (which is something that the vengeance tests (even with their issues) has only reinforced).

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

The change to RoA should have been to add "to monsters only" condition to the set. That is the only solution that makes any sense.

People say things like this because they think it is going to make ball groups just go away from PvP. I hate to break it to everyone but they could get rid of DC and ROA and there will still be ball groups. We will still find alternative sets. You're not going to b e able to get rid of a core group of 12 people who take pride in their comp.

No. That is not what I said or why I said it. Please try to be less presumptuous in the future.

I don't have a problem with comped groups. I used to run in one of the strongest comp groups in Cyrodiil. (Tyr) But that was before Dark Convergence and RoA. We could be killed with massive coordination and some well placed negates. Changes since then have made ball groups nearly invincible and 100x more trollish.

I don't want ball groups abolished or gone. I want them to be more fair and manageable.

Fair enough - I'm almost conditioned now to read "monster only" as someone crying about ball groups.

I used to run with Tyr back in the day fwiw. I agree, and have said a lot, thatrush is broken.. ball groups are too op and need to be tuned down, etc etc.

Sure, they can remove all the pulls... but then I'd argue they need to get rid of the charms and all the other "moveable" skills/sets because it's just pure chaos. Even if they did this (to your point) ball groups would still be a thing so those who (not you) cry about ball groups... still will have to find something to complain about because balls aren't going anywhere.

FWIW, (since we have butted heads in the past over ball groups), I never had an issue with ball groups in the past (pre-Rush/DC) since it was very possible to avoid their burst/turn and burn, and long before the HoT stacking (this includes all stacking, it's just easier to say HoTs than trying to list out the 100+ things ball groups get to stack that other playstyles cannot), but introduction of Rush and other mass pull sets has removed the counter-play to their offense, while the constantly stacked sticky HoTs (and everything else) that, thanks to U35 now lasts minimum of 10-15 seconds and not just 3-5 seconds from pre-U35, has removed the counter play options to ball groups defenses outside of a lucky blue moon lottery bomb (or another ball group) that happens to catch them with their own level of damage + a negate + CC while their buffs/heals are down.

I never had an issue with what ball groups used to be, sure they were annoying and frustrating to take on, but it was possible to learn how to counter play that playstyle (side-stepping the turn and burn, avoiding the obvious choke points they were leading their targets into, timing a negate with siege-fire to remove/nullify their ground based HoTs, etc), but the power creep and game-wide combat changes ZOS has introduced into the game over the past 5+ years has basically removed all counter play to that playstyle, to the point we see now where Cyro has become nothing but ball groups and faction stacks and a few top tier super sweat 1vXers that are now doing much more duo/small scale/zerg surfing instead of being true solo like before (which is not a good thing for the longevity of PvP in this game, let alone things like server performance).

What I would like to see ZOS do would be the following:
1. Make Rush/DC (and other mass pull effects) limited to PvE only (this means no guaranteed forced choke point for a bomb which forces the strategic use of terrain and obstacles to funnel in targets)
2. Make group based sticky HoTs/shields much weaker than ground based versions (re-introduces counter play to stacked defenses since negate removes ground based effects allowing for group counter damage methods (sieges/bombs) to do their job, this would probably have to include reducing the durations of group sticky HoTs/shields back down to 3-6 seconds from their current 10-15 seconds as well)
3. Adjust the speed cap for various movement types (mounted should be 250%, sprint the current 200%, run should be only 150%, this means things like snow treaders actually has a drawback and counter play that needs real decision making on taking its permanent snare/immobilize immunity).
4. Capped to 2-3 stacks max of the same effect (this means more coordination/organization is required than just slotting 12 vigors + 6-12 regens to cover the groups HoT requirements, also leads to more skills/morphs being looked at which helps build diversity)

Probably a few other things I'm forgetting, but these 4 changes alone would reign in the current power level of ball groups to more acceptable levels, reintroduce actual skill/knowledge based counter-play to that playstyle, all while keeping the playstyle strong and having it focus much more on tactics, teamwork, coordination and organization as it's strength/advantage instead of just stacking every buff possible to achieve stats that this game's PvP was never designed around.

TL//DR:
I (and likely the majority of those who have issues with modern ball groups) don't want ball groups to be removed (outside of 1-2 specific ones that are extremely toxic in how they "play" the game), I just want to see the playstyle returned to pre-2020 levels where there's real limits on how much of a raw direct power advantage they have over everyone else. Communication + coordination should already be the main advantage of being in a comp'd group, they shouldn't need or have access to levels of raw stacked stats/effects that vastly exceed anything that anyone else can dream of having access to, even something that is supposed to be overpowered e.g. Emperor bonus (yes ball group players have more raw stats than even emperors these days, it's reached that level of absurdity).

Honestly - I have zero issues with anything in this list.

There are about 20 different ways they could work on balancing out ball groups being OP while keeping ball groups still in the game. That could be changes to the pulls, CC immunity, removing rush/dc all together, hot stacks, etc, etc.

I'm supportive of your general sentiment in your message. The 2020 era was insanley fun as a ball group person (it was hard af to be a good ball group and "meet the standards"). Now - anyone can run a near unkillable ball group with zero time/dedication/skill (which is why you see so many balls now).

Fighting against ball groups back then was significantly more fun for the rest of us too.

Much larger groups/pops allowed true overwhelming numbers, people were actually starting to learn how to counter play ball groups (side stepping the turn and burn, negates, sieges, avoiding natural choke points, don't blindly chase, etc), it made for a really nice back and forth fight looking back on it. Of course the super top tier ball groups would still run over everyone, but you could see the skills of those players at work to achieve that and even they had their "max numbers" where they still had to disengage or face a wipe.
It made fighting them (or at least truly kicking them out of a keep instead of waiting for them to get bored and leave) seem feasible, even to the average/casual player, which is something that is key to retaining numbers required for healthy PvP (which is something that the vengeance tests (even with their issues) has only reinforced).

And yet even in those times the forums were filled with ballgroup nerf threads talking about how unkillable and unfair they were, etc. The more things change, the more things stay the same and all of that.

I also feel like I'm taking crazy pills here with people talking about unkillable groups. Every night you see literally every ballgroup on the map get zerged-down at some point or another (unless they are dodging fights) after biting-off more than they can chew. The zone players always win in the end.

fufu_from_ps4 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I also feel like I'm taking crazy pills here with people talking about unkillable groups. Every night you see literally every ballgroup on the map get zerged-down at some point or another (unless they are dodging fights) after biting-off more than they can chew. The zone players always win in the end.

When i used to run in a ball group, we didnt wipe for 6 months. granted, we recruited the best players into the guild, and then further empowered them thru buffs and strats.... but we literally didnt wipe for 6 months. when we did wipe, it was because our leader was goofing around while fighting another ball group.

the reason our group dissolved, was because of one of the people who had imported the idea from pc guilds, noticed that we were killing the game. the population was declining on playstation NA cyrodiil (2016-2018?) because we were farming people too hard, and so we decided to break up the ball group. we had become so strong that the other alliances were logging out. our success was killing the game.

long ramble.... whats my point ? when you stack 11 of the best players in the game, and the 12th player knows how to run the group like wearing a glove.... and the population of the server is 64 people.... i honestly dont think you would have been able to wipe my group. we went 6 months without wiping... and thats when it was like 200v200v200.

the other thing about ball groups. they dont fight each other. they know who is stronger, and they both want to farm ap. so like.... it doesnt make sense for them to fight each other. so they dont. so then you got one ball group farming half the faction over here, and another one farming over there..... avoiding each other, lagging the server out, and virtually unkillable. people are leaving in droves because of this, and this set just exacerbates the issue.

i dont dislike ball groups. in fact, i prefer it. but because the server is so poor, and the population is so low, i dont do it anymore. im not asking other people to stop doing it, but this set is beyond broken. also nerf crosshealing to 2 per morph.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

The change to RoA should have been to add "to monsters only" condition to the set. That is the only solution that makes any sense.

People say things like this because they think it is going to make ball groups just go away from PvP. I hate to break it to everyone but they could get rid of DC and ROA and there will still be ball groups. We will still find alternative sets. You're not going to b e able to get rid of a core group of 12 people who take pride in their comp.

No. That is not what I said or why I said it. Please try to be less presumptuous in the future.

I don't have a problem with comped groups. I used to run in one of the strongest comp groups in Cyrodiil. (Tyr) But that was before Dark Convergence and RoA. We could be killed with massive coordination and some well placed negates. Changes since then have made ball groups nearly invincible and 100x more trollish.

I don't want ball groups abolished or gone. I want them to be more fair and manageable.

Fair enough - I'm almost conditioned now to read "monster only" as someone crying about ball groups.

I used to run with Tyr back in the day fwiw. I agree, and have said a lot, thatrush is broken.. ball groups are too op and need to be tuned down, etc etc.

Sure, they can remove all the pulls... but then I'd argue they need to get rid of the charms and all the other "moveable" skills/sets because it's just pure chaos. Even if they did this (to your point) ball groups would still be a thing so those who (not you) cry about ball groups... still will have to find something to complain about because balls aren't going anywhere.

FWIW, (since we have butted heads in the past over ball groups), I never had an issue with ball groups in the past (pre-Rush/DC) since it was very possible to avoid their burst/turn and burn, and long before the HoT stacking (this includes all stacking, it's just easier to say HoTs than trying to list out the 100+ things ball groups get to stack that other playstyles cannot), but introduction of Rush and other mass pull sets has removed the counter-play to their offense, while the constantly stacked sticky HoTs (and everything else) that, thanks to U35 now lasts minimum of 10-15 seconds and not just 3-5 seconds from pre-U35, has removed the counter play options to ball groups defenses outside of a lucky blue moon lottery bomb (or another ball group) that happens to catch them with their own level of damage + a negate + CC while their buffs/heals are down.

I never had an issue with what ball groups used to be, sure they were annoying and frustrating to take on, but it was possible to learn how to counter play that playstyle (side-stepping the turn and burn, avoiding the obvious choke points they were leading their targets into, timing a negate with siege-fire to remove/nullify their ground based HoTs, etc), but the power creep and game-wide combat changes ZOS has introduced into the game over the past 5+ years has basically removed all counter play to that playstyle, to the point we see now where Cyro has become nothing but ball groups and faction stacks and a few top tier super sweat 1vXers that are now doing much more duo/small scale/zerg surfing instead of being true solo like before (which is not a good thing for the longevity of PvP in this game, let alone things like server performance).

What I would like to see ZOS do would be the following:
1. Make Rush/DC (and other mass pull effects) limited to PvE only (this means no guaranteed forced choke point for a bomb which forces the strategic use of terrain and obstacles to funnel in targets)
2. Make group based sticky HoTs/shields much weaker than ground based versions (re-introduces counter play to stacked defenses since negate removes ground based effects allowing for group counter damage methods (sieges/bombs) to do their job, this would probably have to include reducing the durations of group sticky HoTs/shields back down to 3-6 seconds from their current 10-15 seconds as well)
3. Adjust the speed cap for various movement types (mounted should be 250%, sprint the current 200%, run should be only 150%, this means things like snow treaders actually has a drawback and counter play that needs real decision making on taking its permanent snare/immobilize immunity).
4. Capped to 2-3 stacks max of the same effect (this means more coordination/organization is required than just slotting 12 vigors + 6-12 regens to cover the groups HoT requirements, also leads to more skills/morphs being looked at which helps build diversity)

Probably a few other things I'm forgetting, but these 4 changes alone would reign in the current power level of ball groups to more acceptable levels, reintroduce actual skill/knowledge based counter-play to that playstyle, all while keeping the playstyle strong and having it focus much more on tactics, teamwork, coordination and organization as it's strength/advantage instead of just stacking every buff possible to achieve stats that this game's PvP was never designed around.

TL//DR:
I (and likely the majority of those who have issues with modern ball groups) don't want ball groups to be removed (outside of 1-2 specific ones that are extremely toxic in how they "play" the game), I just want to see the playstyle returned to pre-2020 levels where there's real limits on how much of a raw direct power advantage they have over everyone else. Communication + coordination should already be the main advantage of being in a comp'd group, they shouldn't need or have access to levels of raw stacked stats/effects that vastly exceed anything that anyone else can dream of having access to, even something that is supposed to be overpowered e.g. Emperor bonus (yes ball group players have more raw stats than even emperors these days, it's reached that level of absurdity).

Honestly - I have zero issues with anything in this list.

There are about 20 different ways they could work on balancing out ball groups being OP while keeping ball groups still in the game. That could be changes to the pulls, CC immunity, removing rush/dc all together, hot stacks, etc, etc.

I'm supportive of your general sentiment in your message. The 2020 era was insanley fun as a ball group person (it was hard af to be a good ball group and "meet the standards"). Now - anyone can run a near unkillable ball group with zero time/dedication/skill (which is why you see so many balls now).

Fighting against ball groups back then was significantly more fun for the rest of us too.

Much larger groups/pops allowed true overwhelming numbers, people were actually starting to learn how to counter play ball groups (side stepping the turn and burn, negates, sieges, avoiding natural choke points, don't blindly chase, etc), it made for a really nice back and forth fight looking back on it. Of course the super top tier ball groups would still run over everyone, but you could see the skills of those players at work to achieve that and even they had their "max numbers" where they still had to disengage or face a wipe.
It made fighting them (or at least truly kicking them out of a keep instead of waiting for them to get bored and leave) seem feasible, even to the average/casual player, which is something that is key to retaining numbers required for healthy PvP (which is something that the vengeance tests (even with their issues) has only reinforced).

LadyGP wrote: »

Bring it back to ball group 2019-2020 time frame.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Bring it back to ball group 2019-2020 time frame.

It was already cooked by then. Heal stacking spiraling out of control. You'd need to go back to at least 2017 before Summerset changed the ball group healing meta from stationary AoE to sticky HoT. If we're gonna do ESO classic let's go all the way to 2014 then. Patch 1.2 was fun, you'd see organized group formations of single file trains, not just balls.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I sincerely doubt that the appetite for 2014 combat is as high as it is sometimes claimed to be.

LadyGP wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Give me god mode.

You can counter my god mode with 12 players all hitting Gravity Crush on me at the same time, but only that.

Since you can technically counter it, my god mode is very fair. I can even wear Rushing Agony with it.

They can reduce the effectiveness of ball groups while still keeping rush in.

But again, they can remove rush and there will still be ball groups. They can limit hot stacking... there will still be ball groups. The proof is in the fact by the end of Veng test 2 we had ball groups going around. Sure, the mechanics of them are totally different but they were still a ball and still ran over people.

You're never... ever... going to be able to keep 12 people from coming together.. making a great min/maxed comp... and running in a tight formation all putting dps on a specific point at the exact same time.

I don't care how loud people complain... you will have ball groups in some form. So, becareful what people wish for because you think PvP is dead now... some of these changes they are trending in have large non ball group guilds wanting to leave if they hit prod.

Case and point... look at the large guids in pvp that take a week off everytime the veng test hits. Sure, you get a quick pop boost because of PvE people and the incentives they use to push people into pvp to test.. but that is not going to sustain the game.

Just look at all the incentives they have put out there for people to log in daily, come back if they have been away for a while, etc... the games player count is at near historical lows. These "cheap tricks' the game industry uses to give people FOMO and to sign in daily have proven to be long term ineffective.

So again, becareful what you wish for. You just might get it and hate the result.