fufu_from_ps4 wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Whats funny is I can tell you literally don't look at my posts.

I do not blindly defend ball groups. I, on more than one occasion, have said how they can tune them so ball groups can be killed easier and make it harder for us (yes I ball group) to stay alive.

I've also said, on more than one occasion, that I shouldn't be able to pull someone with rush, then pull again, and again and again... and rush should have cc.

I've said this so many times in so many of these threads. I've also explained, in detail, how rush is broken under heavy server load.

Respectfully, read my posts before you attempt to call me out.

dude you constantly do it. you did it just now by claiming this set doesnt drive people away from the game with its broken mechanics, which is why i pointed out that you constantly defend broken mechanics. like i said... its fine. but lets call a spade a spade.

you claimed in another thread that the current changes are sufficient (because i assume you want to keep a double stun, as if ball groups needed anymore help)

a month or so ago you were argueing against nerfing, the stacking of 10 vigors and 10 regens plus whatever other hots are stacking. theres no need for more than 2 hots per morph. it creates lag, and no one needs 30k heals per second give me a break.

i could go on and on, you always advocate for the buffing of ball groups.... which is fine..... but just be honest about it.

rush of agony giving no cc immunity is SUPER broken, especially paired with the damage and the insanely short cooldown ( that happens to line up with the stun you're gonna hit them with after you pull them so you can double stun on cc cooldown)

its pretty cringy bro.

Are you sure you are thinking of the right person, "dude"?

I've said this set performs bad under high server load. I've said many times it needs to be fixed. I've said many times the double cc is a problem. I've literally said as a ball group lead there is zero circumstance where I should be able to pull someone, pull them again, and then pull someone else thus pulling that other person yet again.

That is a terrible mechanic and needs to be fixed - point blank.

I've argued against removing it - as it's really easy to block and see coming and the vast majority of people who get pulled by it are just lazy (even when you're way out of the area and the server is under stress you can still see you're about to get pulled and block/roll it). Someone being lazy is not a reason to nerf something.

People argue about removing DC too - it's stupid easy to see coming and if you get pulled by it... well it's your own fault.

I have also said there should be some changes to hot stacking because we shouldnt have endless hots and vigors on us. BUT - I have said they won't make that change unless they seperate it from PvE because the trial commmunity will lose their minds about it (which I get why).

I don't argue for buffing ball groups - I have said so many times ball groups are OP and nayone can ball group. I like to think I'm actually one of the few ball group people that come on her and give an honest perspective on how to make ball groups weaker, the pvp experience better for all, while still letting players of all types (yes that includes ball groups) in the game. Being in a ball group used to be very hard, tons of min maxing and looking at logs, constantly changing your groups comp, etc, but now it's easy - anyone can do it - and I wish that wasn;'t the case. It needs to be harder to stay alive as a ball group.

I can't tell if you're trying to bait me into something, have me confused with someone else, or what is going on. I'm just going to assume you've got me confused with someone else.


On topic the biggest issue with this set is how it performs under heavy server load and for those who aren't aware it can cause an extremly... extremly frustrating experience for the user.

The real question is whether spammable 5 piece set bonuses should be doing ultimate ability type effects? Does combat need to be so convoluted and unclear with animations all over the place.

If RoA was a skill or ultimate where would it land? Would you rather choose that vs something like sap essence? Probably. What about something like negate? Probably still would rather RoA proc.......keep in mind the cooldown is up like 3x-5x more often, the effect is stronger, the animation is crazier, the number of effects and code is crazier

I wonder why the game is lagging and combat is a mess?

---

Edit: lets do a comparison. if a basic easy 5 piece proc set bonus for stats is worth like 450wd. Is this worth what is essentially an ultimate every 8s? Uhhhhhh not even close. Does 450wd even make an average spammable skill tooltip the same as an ultimate? uhhhhh not even close.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoSkills

You can UESP's skill tool to play with the variables for instance surprise attack even with 450wd extra still only tooltips for about 2/3 of what an ult like dawnbreaker does without 450wd

The change to RoA should have been to add "to monsters only" condition to the set. That is the only solution that makes any sense.

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

So i just tried it myself on the pts with 3 friends.
The set is super easy to block.

If you still die to it, its kinda a issue on your end, im sorry.

Really good nerf

Not necessarily. You can block but if some player gets pulled next to you and doesn’t block, you’ll get a 25k VD proc from them on top of the other damage.

AngryPenguin wrote: »

The change to RoA should have been to add "to monsters only" condition to the set. That is the only solution that makes any sense.

People say things like this because they think it is going to make ball groups just go away from PvP. I hate to break it to everyone but they could get rid of DC and ROA and there will still be ball groups. We will still find alternative sets. You're not going to b e able to get rid of a core group of 12 people who take pride in their comp.

LadyGP wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

So i just tried it myself on the pts with 3 friends.
The set is super easy to block.

If you still die to it, its kinda a issue on your end, im sorry.

Really good nerf

Not necessarily. You can block but if some player gets pulled next to you and doesn’t block, you’ll get a 25k VD proc from them on top of the other damage.

Block and roll away. This has always worked for me with very good success. If you just block and stand still... yeah you're vd bait now. Sorry

Block, roll away, and get pulled again by second RoA since no CC immunity.This has happened to me many times!

Also the set is still pulling from outside the radius of the huge, huge, HUGE area effect on the ground. You can blame lag or you can just conclude the SETI’s hopelessly broken given the realities of the ZOS servers

JustLovely wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

this reads as you have a very "dug in" view

Yeah I do because the game is dead and Rushing Agony helped kill it. Relentless focus on catering to comp groups helped kill it. I stand by my convictions, I'll bet my account that build PvP is cooked and Vengeance is the future.

Please stop promoting a game mode you know full well the vast majority of the remaining PvP community hates.

You accidentally said the quiet part out loud. The "remaining PVP community." As in, those who actually like the abomination PVP has become. Those who compare when PVP in this game was actually good to now, when PVP couldn't possibly appeal to anyone who values fair play and balance, and choose now.

Of course people who like contemporary PVP will hate Vengeance with a, well, vengeance. It reminds us all that PVP was once extremely popular in this game, that most of that community was driven away by poor choices, and the remainder find those poor choices to be good. If we ever want 2014 levels of PVP participation again, catering to those who like the current PVP ain't gonna get us there.

To answer OP's question: Not really. They made it less effective in PVE. That's about it.

Give me god mode.

You can counter my god mode with 12 players all hitting Gravity Crush on me at the same time, but only that.

Since you can technically counter it, my god mode is very fair. I can even wear Rushing Agony with it.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Give me god mode.

You can counter my god mode with 12 players all hitting Gravity Crush on me at the same time, but only that.

Since you can technically counter it, my god mode is very fair. I can even wear Rushing Agony with it.

They can reduce the effectiveness of ball groups while still keeping rush in.

But again, they can remove rush and there will still be ball groups. They can limit hot stacking... there will still be ball groups. The proof is in the fact by the end of Veng test 2 we had ball groups going around. Sure, the mechanics of them are totally different but they were still a ball and still ran over people.

You're never... ever... going to be able to keep 12 people from coming together.. making a great min/maxed comp... and running in a tight formation all putting dps on a specific point at the exact same time.

I don't care how loud people complain... you will have ball groups in some form. So, becareful what people wish for because you think PvP is dead now... some of these changes they are trending in have large non ball group guilds wanting to leave if they hit prod.

Case and point... look at the large guids in pvp that take a week off everytime the veng test hits. Sure, you get a quick pop boost because of PvE people and the incentives they use to push people into pvp to test.. but that is not going to sustain the game.

Just look at all the incentives they have put out there for people to log in daily, come back if they have been away for a while, etc... the games player count is at near historical lows. These "cheap tricks' the game industry uses to give people FOMO and to sign in daily have proven to be long term ineffective.

So again, becareful what you wish for. You just might get it and hate the result.

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Why are you so upset ? Just learn to block and dodge.

Just learn to sync Gravity Crush with your entire group, then you might beat my god mode 12v1.

It's very easy for a skilled enough group. Is your ball group not on that level yet?

LadyGP wrote: »

Our ball group doesn't use gravity crush

Well I guess I wipe your whole ball group with my god mode then. It shouldn't be a big deal for all 12 to slot Dawn's Wrath and the ult morph with Gravity Crush. Playstyle doesn't matter, only winning. Learn to drop 12 novas and sync all 12 Gravity Crush synergies on the player marked with God Mode (me) and then you should be an elite ball group again.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Our ball group doesn't use gravity crush

Well I guess I wipe your whole ball group with my god mode then. It shouldn't be a big deal for all 12 to slot Dawn's Wrath and the ult morph with Gravity Crush. Playstyle doesn't matter, only winning. Learn to drop 12 novas and sync all 12 Gravity Crush synergies on the player marked with God Mode (me) and then you should be an elite ball group again.

The new rush is kinda balanced and easy to avoid, maybe just try it few times and you will manage it, the big red flashy aoe suggests to block.

Good luck!

LadyGP wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

The change to RoA should have been to add "to monsters only" condition to the set. That is the only solution that makes any sense.

People say things like this because they think it is going to make ball groups just go away from PvP. I hate to break it to everyone but they could get rid of DC and ROA and there will still be ball groups. We will still find alternative sets. You're not going to b e able to get rid of a core group of 12 people who take pride in their comp.

No. That is not what I said or why I said it. Please try to be less presumptuous in the future.

I don't have a problem with comped groups. I used to run in one of the strongest comp groups in Cyrodiil. (Tyr) But that was before Dark Convergence and RoA. We could be killed with massive coordination and some well placed negates. Changes since then have made ball groups nearly invincible and 100x more trollish.

I don't want ball groups abolished or gone. I want them to be more fair and manageable.

Fair enough - I'm almost conditioned now to read "monster only" as someone crying about ball groups.

I used to run with Tyr back in the day fwiw. I agree, and have said a lot, thatrush is broken.. ball groups are too op and need to be tuned down, etc etc.

Sure, they can remove all the pulls... but then I'd argue they need to get rid of the charms and all the other "moveable" skills/sets because it's just pure chaos. Even if they did this (to your point) ball groups would still be a thing so those who (not you) cry about ball groups... still will have to find something to complain about because balls aren't going anywhere.

FWIW, (since we have butted heads in the past over ball groups), I never had an issue with ball groups in the past (pre-Rush/DC) since it was very possible to avoid their burst/turn and burn, and long before the HoT stacking (this includes all stacking, it's just easier to say HoTs than trying to list out the 100+ things ball groups get to stack that other playstyles cannot), but introduction of Rush and other mass pull sets has removed the counter-play to their offense, while the constantly stacked sticky HoTs (and everything else) that, thanks to U35 now lasts minimum of 10-15 seconds and not just 3-5 seconds from pre-U35, has removed the counter play options to ball groups defenses outside of a lucky blue moon lottery bomb (or another ball group) that happens to catch them with their own level of damage + a negate + CC while their buffs/heals are down.

I never had an issue with what ball groups used to be, sure they were annoying and frustrating to take on, but it was possible to learn how to counter play that playstyle (side-stepping the turn and burn, avoiding the obvious choke points they were leading their targets into, timing a negate with siege-fire to remove/nullify their ground based HoTs, etc), but the power creep and game-wide combat changes ZOS has introduced into the game over the past 5+ years has basically removed all counter play to that playstyle, to the point we see now where Cyro has become nothing but ball groups and faction stacks and a few top tier super sweat 1vXers that are now doing much more duo/small scale/zerg surfing instead of being true solo like before (which is not a good thing for the longevity of PvP in this game, let alone things like server performance).

What I would like to see ZOS do would be the following:
1. Make Rush/DC (and other mass pull effects) limited to PvE only (this means no guaranteed forced choke point for a bomb which forces the strategic use of terrain and obstacles to funnel in targets)
2. Make group based sticky HoTs/shields much weaker than ground based versions (re-introduces counter play to stacked defenses since negate removes ground based effects allowing for group counter damage methods (sieges/bombs) to do their job, this would probably have to include reducing the durations of group sticky HoTs/shields back down to 3-6 seconds from their current 10-15 seconds as well)
3. Adjust the speed cap for various movement types (mounted should be 250%, sprint the current 200%, run should be only 150%, this means things like snow treaders actually has a drawback and counter play that needs real decision making on taking its permanent snare/immobilize immunity).
4. Capped to 2-3 stacks max of the same effect (this means more coordination/organization is required than just slotting 12 vigors + 6-12 regens to cover the groups HoT requirements, also leads to more skills/morphs being looked at which helps build diversity)

Probably a few other things I'm forgetting, but these 4 changes alone would reign in the current power level of ball groups to more acceptable levels, reintroduce actual skill/knowledge based counter-play to that playstyle, all while keeping the playstyle strong and having it focus much more on tactics, teamwork, coordination and organization as it's strength/advantage instead of just stacking every buff possible to achieve stats that this game's PvP was never designed around.

TL//DR:
I (and likely the majority of those who have issues with modern ball groups) don't want ball groups to be removed (outside of 1-2 specific ones that are extremely toxic in how they "play" the game), I just want to see the playstyle returned to pre-2020 levels where there's real limits on how much of a raw direct power advantage they have over everyone else. Communication + coordination should already be the main advantage of being in a comp'd group, they shouldn't need or have access to levels of raw stacked stats/effects that vastly exceed anything that anyone else can dream of having access to, even something that is supposed to be overpowered e.g. Emperor bonus (yes ball group players have more raw stats than even emperors these days, it's reached that level of absurdity).

JustLovely wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

this reads as you have a very "dug in" view

Yeah I do because the game is dead and Rushing Agony helped kill it. Relentless focus on catering to comp groups helped kill it. I stand by my convictions, I'll bet my account that build PvP is cooked and Vengeance is the future.

Please stop promoting a game mode you know full well the vast majority of the remaining PvP community hates.

So how do you know that? The vast majority huh, well you're speaking for alot of people. Is that why the Vengeance servers were always full when I was there? During Vengeance I and Vengeance II (I showed up towards the end kinda) the servers were loaded with players and guilds.

I know like -alot- of people where we have talked about this on Discord and in game and you would be surprised at how many PvP folks hate the game now because of things like ball groups and ROA, and love Vengeance for no other reason than it doesn't have either of those things.

Yeah, Vengeance doesn't have to be perfect, but people can play it with healthy competition. The vast majority of people I know love Vengeance and have learned -by themselves- to hate both ROA and ball groups (over time). And that's not me gabbing that's a fact based on actual people that I have dealt with about this.