Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

They should do test 3 where vengeance is extended to BGs, IC and Duelling so that everyone can experience the joy of vengeance.

Yes please. Dueling and smallscale are infinitely better under Vengeance rules, minus NB infinite sustain. Kick all the broken proc sets out of BGs, break down the IC cartels, drop all pretense they'll ever fix build PvP.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

If people actually spent more than 5 minutes following whatever build video Pelican release during first week of a new patch, you´d realize that there is quite a lot of different interesting ways to build in PvP

I lived on the U46 PTS the entire 6 weeks. Used to spar with Pelican in Stormhaven 2016-2018 or so.

Build PvP is past the point of no return. Not coming back. I'll bet my account Vengeance is the future.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

They should do test 3 where vengeance is extended to BGs, IC and Duelling so that everyone can experience the joy of vengeance.

Yes please. Dueling and smallscale are infinitely better under Vengeance rules, minus NB infinite sustain. Kick all the broken proc sets out of BGs, break down the IC cartels, drop all pretense they'll ever fix build PvP.

I will say that atleast with vengeance combat TTK is back to what it used to be where fights were around 5-7skills to kill a player. Compared to now adays where it is just waiting 30-40s to line up an ult proc combo hoping things crit or just going acuity.

It is also funny to think that pvp has been broken and complained about server performance wise since that infamous lighting patch in like 2014-2015. So we are talking 10 years at this point or 520 weeks of "broken servers". Now that we are getting a test to fix it people want to complain that they missed yet another week of broken gameplay.....oh no what a tragedy.

I think its just that people are so upset they want zos to feel the miserable attitude instead of giving them an ounce of praise for doing something in the right direction.

JustLovely wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

It is also funny to think that pvp has been broken and complained about server performance wise since that infamous lighting patch in like 2014-2015. So we are talking 10 years at this point or 520 weeks of "broken servers". Now that we are getting a test to fix it people want to complain that they missed yet another week of broken gameplay.....oh no what a tragedy.

I think its just that people are so upset they want zos to feel the miserable attitude instead of giving them an ounce of praise for doing something in the right direction.

Except vengeance is the opposite of the right direction.

ZOS can fix cyrodiil performance without dumbed down vengeance mode.

There are two routes to solve the "problem". They/we do not know what the "Problem" is exactly. So you can either take the current system and take out or test one system at a time. Even if you do this it'll be 10+ week long tests(that people are complaining about losing a week already) Where there is no guarantee you even make a dent in the problem because it could be a mix of systems interacting instead of just one. Or you go the other more guaranteed route and tackle it from the ground up rewriting everything in a simplistic way. Which at least guarantees you are certain how the interactions happen between systems.

I thought they would have given up on vengeance because they are essentially writing an entire game from the ground up all over again. Now you say it is dumbed down.....but vengeance so far is just eso combat with unmorphed skills. If we took live eso and disabled things one by one until we had unmorphed skills which is better? Which is more dumbed down? Really neither, they would probably play very similarly except that with vengeance the spaghetti code is not entangled with 15 years of handfuls of devs tugging on it.

I assume they probably have a 4 man team at best rewriting the whole combat system essentially, so realistically we will probably expect another 2 or 3 vengeance tests before we see any stat choices. My test order would probably involve doing more combat tests before adding in stats.

1. Aoe cap tests, DMG aoe have higher caps and healing aoe have lower caps? Maybe effects could also have their own cap like proc sets?
2. Effect stacking is limited. Hots, dots, and proc effects cannot stack on the same player multiple times or a limited number of instances.
3. Cross healing outside of group
4. Smarthealing removed/introduced
   
5. Then we get into race, mundus, food, basic armor/jewelry and their enchants
6. Then skills start having scaling based on stats (remember right now they are just dummy flat values and not equations.)
7. then finally you would see basic stat sets like hundings
8. Stat proc sets like clever alch
9. Proc effect sets like RoA, VD, RallyingCry

I mean this is just a spitball order of what has to happen, and we are already at almost 10 more tests worth of questions. I just find it counterintuitive to not want to participate in bettering something you supposedly "care" so much about.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Except vengeance is the opposite of the right direction.

It's an MMO game where the players want the devs to go in 8 different directions, but they can realistically only go 1 of those, so they chose 1 that could both fix the lag and bring back the casual zergs they lost.

Vengeance does have builds. Class + Weapons + Skills. You can now put together distinct playstyles and fill holes in class kits, unlike the first test. Problems are NB infinite sustain in smallscale, and Resto heal stacking large scale.

vengeance also has the issue where weapon playstyles are near impossible because you cant drop mag regen for more stam regen. Granted once they get around to adding mundus and basic gear and passives this may change.

I tried running dizzy stamsorc and could mostly make it work, but for 1vX I could only manage about 3-4 players at a time vs on a mag build it was much easier to deal with 6 or so pugs at a time.

These are very brief disruptions in exchange for test data the devs sorely need when other fix approaches have failed. Just don't play it if you don't like it, but some of us want to see cyrodiil become performant again.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I think its just that people are so upset they want zos to feel the miserable attitude instead of giving them an ounce of praise for doing something in the right direction.

Yes, players are upset, mostly about theory crafting. People are afraid that Vengeance as we know it so far will be the only option, and without sets. Perhaps there would be more praise and less rants if ZOS were more transparent about their future plans for PvP, other than fixing performance.

aetherix8 wrote: »

ADawg wrote: »

Please do not force it as the only Cyrodiil option.

There is no other way to force PvPers to participate in these performance improvement tests. The few notable exceptions would be by far insufficient in generating enough data related to the performance during massive battles, and when population caps are significantly increased.

I wouldn't expect no shiny cool rewards for participation, so yeah, there is no other way.

It is definitely entertaining to see PvPers complaining about being forced to PvP for once

Vengeance had more players in queue the first few days than Grey Host, Blackreach and Ravenwatch together in Cyrodiil so it would get full even without closing GreyHost especially when most vengeance haters rather not play than Vengeance like they say all the time. And full vengeance has population of 3 standart campaigns combined so even half full has more players than normal.
ZOS is just unable/unwilling to give players choice for some reason even if players not play the mode they not like/choose.

Iriidius wrote: »

Vengeance had more players in queue the first few days than Grey Host, Blackreach and Ravenwatch together in Cyrodiil so it would get full even without closing GreyHost especially when most vengeance haters rather not play than Vengeance like they say all the time.

Vengeance haters as you call them, the most unreasonable players. It's been ages since PvPers have complained about lag, and the general state of abandonment of the PvP realm by devs. But the moment the devs decide to seriously engage with improving this aspect of their game, some players complain more and refuse to participate in testing things. This is by far the worst moment to desert. Players who have concerns about the future PvP in ESO should participate and give their feedback so they can voice their concerns and ideas, and maybe have an impact on the future shape of their favorite game.

ADawg wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Except vengeance is the opposite of the right direction.

It's an MMO game where the players want the devs to go in 8 different directions, but they can realistically only go 1 of those, so they chose 1 that could both fix the lag and bring back the casual zergs they lost.

Vengeance does have builds. Class + Weapons + Skills. You can now put together distinct playstyles and fill holes in class kits, unlike the first test. Problems are NB infinite sustain in smallscale, and Resto heal stacking large scale.

I like theory crafting builds. MY BUILDS...that I come up with.

Vengeance takes away the many MANY builds I bring to the fight by "dumbing down" PVP to the lowest common denominator.

I've said it many times and I will say it again: All of you that love the simpler style of vengeance...where were you when RAVENWATCH was NO-CP + No-Proc????

All we had was people complaining about not being able to use the new proc sets. This will not fix anything. I know how to fix PVP balance, its VERY VERY simple , but no one cares.

REMOVE HEALING POWER SCALING OFF OF DAMAGE. Boom PVP balance fixed. No more high burst dmg 1 button full health self heals.

This hardly would affect performance to any degree. If you want to complain about one click wonders self heal maybe complain about the real issue which is healing soul+major vitality+charm which may aswell be stronger than most ultimates.

I did play the nocp noproc quite a bit. However the population of pvp was already so low at that point that AD was the only faction with a constant playerbase because multiple under lvl50 ad guilds had moved into the campaign since u50 died out. This lead to frequent full map flipping since the ep/dc guild players tended to only login and play when the rest of their guild played. Zos still has yet to do anything to address the low pop issue. Cyrodil as a gamemode was only ever designed to work while at pop locked 200v200v200. When we get down to side campaigns where people only play with their guild the map tends to turn out 64v20vb20 and the clear winner is one faction flipping the map and also GETTING STAT BONUSES for holding the map when they are 64v40 playerwise. Why does the winning faction get any combat bonuses in this instance?

Zos also did a horrible job clarifying how the campaign worked and what sets functioned. If they had something like this again they should have the "allowed" gear as craftable stations or vendors at the spawn. New player initiation should make this known and teach people how to gear up for the system.

Zos also did nothing and still has yet to do anything to prevent lvl10 players from going straight into the Main CP campaign. Player retention is abysmal for this reason as they have no chance at ever having a good experience. Atleast with something like vengeance they could force players under 500cp to only join a good environment to learn the core of the game's combat system. Then the people who like the more performative clear combat can be happy.

Darethran wrote: »

ADawg wrote: »

I like theory crafting builds. MY BUILDS...that I come up with.

Vengeance takes away the many MANY builds I bring to the fight by "dumbing down" PVP to the lowest common denominator.

I've said it many times and I will say it again: All of you that love the simpler style of vengeance...where were you when RAVENWATCH was NO-CP + No-Proc????

All we had was people complaining about not being able to use the new proc sets. This will not fix anything. I know how to fix PVP balance, its VERY VERY simple , but no one cares.

REMOVE HEALING POWER SCALING OFF OF DAMAGE. Boom PVP balance fixed. No more high burst dmg 1 button full health self heals.

I played it and quickly dropped out after theorycrafting. The performance was horrendous, the builds absurdly unbalanced, and the player cap was tiny. At least when it was just no-CP it was clear what sets you can use (all of them!).

Vengeance fixes everything, which is IMO amazing from something that's just a performance debugging test. If you like Cyrodiil, you'll love having >3x the player population and having wars all across the map. That alone makes every sacrifice worth it. And it's just a test!

The devs made it absolutely clear, they said it over and over.

Vengeance fixes nothing. It's a totally different game than live Cyrodiil. ZOS is not dealing with vengeance as though it's just a test. Look at what they do, not listen to what they say.

Good thing about vengeance is you can't buy your way to victory with gold food and expensive potion spamming.

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Vengeance isn't PvP in the traditional sense. It's more like templated PvE with other players.

People are not making the connection of how vengeance mode decouples PvP from the need to do any PvE in the game. Vengeance will be one of the last changes ZOS makes before shutting down ESO if it becomes mandated.

I fail to see how simplified skills used to fight other players suddenly turn Vengeance into PvE. Testing isn’t over yet; more systems will probably be available in future iterations.

I agree that some players skip the theorycrafting part and demand Vengeance live rn and in its current skeletal state, but I don’t have the impression that there are many.

Anyway, I wouldn’t be too worried. I think ZOS understands that existing connections between the two realms (sets, transmutes, scribing etc) must remain if they want to maintain/boost their profits.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Vengeance was literally proven to fix the lag and playercap issue. If you had played earlier on in eso the combat is much closer to the more clear and concise almost fighting game appeal that made PvP popular to begin with. Also zos is quite literally using vengeance as a test......
~snip~

At this point it's clear they didn't play Vengeance for more than a hot minute if at all. Vengeance was super glorious for the couple of days I had the free time to play, and whatever they did in the backend and how they managed the skills put Cyrodiil back into a top tier PvP experience.

...For those couple of days I played. Because Vengeance ended, and we went straight back to the zombie that is Cyrodiil present.