-10% of damage on a havy armor parts

PureeEvil · August 4

I wanted to praise the subclassing and the entire update until I reached the highest mmr on BG on new acc. And it's about what happened to heavy armor. Or rather, what kind of damage can now be taken in full heavy armor. Due to the possibilities of sub-classing, as well as the reduction of damage scaling after a certain number of spd/wpd, we have equal damage for 3-5 parts havy armor playrs and playrse in middle/light armor. And that's not even taking into account the new bash builds. Vampire builds that reduce your health from 50,000 to 30,000 and deal a lot of damage. and that not normal. Havy armor cant give get damage level middle/light armor with only 5% speed debuff its not normal.

My suggestion is to add -10% damage to each piece of heavy armor in their debuffs. It doesn't affect PvE in any way. However, in PvP, it removes the ridiculous similarity in damage between medium and heavy armor. Alternatively, it can be used to remove the scaling reduction.

Urzigurumash · August 4

So you love the 3 shot meta and want it reduced to two? No offense but you must be new here cuz this is like the 3rd most suggested change for PvP, presumably always by gankers

PureeEvil · August 4

Urzigurumash wrote: »

So you love the 3 shot meta and want it reduced to two? No offense but you must be new here cuz this is like the 3rd most suggested change for PvP, presumably always by gankers

no i am not a new and i play bg 80% of the time so not ganker. You have not explained in any way why heavy armor should give the same damage as medium armor.

Dock01 · August 4

Urzigurumash wrote: »

So you love the 3 shot meta and want it reduced to two? No offense but you must be new here cuz this is like the 3rd most suggested change for PvP, presumably always by gankers

No offense, but you kinda sound new too

Urzigurumash · August 4

I meant to the forum, thats why I said here. Ive written novels on the subject. Let me find one

Urzigurumash · August 4

Heres one from a few weeks ago, short one, I got lots more

I'm a Orc so I'm pro heavy, big time. Heavy Armor should get a Damage Done bonus, especially with Gapclosers, just like the early version of the Orc passive Swift Warrior, cuz Momentum equals Velocity times Mass

Urzigurumash · August 4

2022, concise:

Heavy Armor plays an essential role in balancing Melee vs Ranged. Should an archer be wearing the same armor as a knight?

Urzigurumash · August 4

2021:

You can only nerf Heavy so much before we all don Mech Acuity and Vicious Death. With all the complaints about Malacath the complaints about Mech Acuity seem rather scarce, but which item set is more represented at the top of the leaderboards?

Urzigurumash · August 4

2021, long winded, I'll stop here for now but i can keep going:

Plainly and flatly I entirely disagree with your statement about tanks. Heavy Armor shouldn't diminish the maximal output of damage within 1 bar of Mag or Stam - although it already does on live: Outside of damage procs, and even when using an Ultimate which doesn't receive additional strength from the Medium/Light Stam/Mag percentile buffs, it's impossible for a 5 Heavy Stam player to hit as hard as a 5 Medium Stam player, even in Mech Acuity, thanks to the lower Weapon Damage, and outside of some off meta usage of Onslaught, it's impossible for a 5 Heavy Mag player to hit as hard as a 5 Light Mag player, even in Mech Acuity, thanks to less Spell Pen. Right?

On live, disregarding some of these overtuned damage procs, there is no reasonable need for additional penalties to the maximal offensive output of 5 Heavy builds within 1 bar of stam/mag. Medium and Light don't have a lower ceiling on their maximal level of defense - Light has Damage Shields, Medium has Shuffle and cheaper Roll-Dodges, etc., while Heavy still has a lower ceiling of maximal offensive output even without additional penalties. This comparable level of defense on Medium and Light comes at a greater resource cost than it would on Heavy, and so should it be with Heavy and offense. The different armor weights ought to be able to achieve a comparable level of overall defense and overall offense, through different means and at different resource costs. This, to me, is the essence of the Thief - Warrior - Mage trinity, which I view as the fundamental trinity of both TES and Western RPGs - not Healer, DD, Tank. Light = magical adeptness, Medium = agility, Heavy = mass, with whatever penalties and benefits that might suggest.

All that being said I'm all for giving Light and Medium overall better passives for PvP since Heavy enjoys the lack of stat co-efficient scaling for Damage Procs and Siege - but this sort of reduction to damage within 1 bar of stam/mag, no matter the build or skill, is not a balanced solution. I'm also very much all for more sources of Oblivion damage, which I assume would bypass any of these new sources of mitigation? Sload's was beyond broken when it was released but that was a while ago, and you don't see many people running Knightslayer.

Urzigurumash · August 4

Anyhow apologies for the rude opening @PureeEvil , this happens to be my pet subject if you couldnt tell, I've ranted about it for years. Dont let me discourage you from posting new ideas

Unless its "make Corrosive just the penetration", then I'm pasting a phd thesis

PureeEvil · August 4

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Anyhow apologies for the rude opening @PureeEvil , this happens to be my pet subject if you couldnt tell, I've ranted about it for years. Dont let me discourage you from posting new ideas

Unless its "make Corrosive just the penetration", then I'm pasting a phd thesis

Heavy armor now gives a lot of buffs to healing, health, and resistances, but it only pays for 5% speed. Everything else is now negated by the subclass. High weapon power and high critical strike are gained. Penetration no longer plays a significant role.

Despite this, builds on medium light armor struggle with scaling damage. After reaching 5000 weapon power, the increase in damage decreases.

And it's not clear where you got your thief, warrior, and mage from, as we don't have them in TESO. Heavy armor is responsible for reducing incoming damage. Two other armor classes are responsible for dealing damage. The fact that heavy armor now deals the same amount of damage as medium/light armor simply breaks the game. The passive skills of armor were created 10 years ago, and there's nothing wrong with adapting them to the changes. The -10% outgoing damage penalty for each piece of heavy armor equipped is a reasonable penalty. If you want protection, deal less damage. This is a normal practice that balances fights.

Urzigurumash · August 4

So Medium should get -10% Healing Received or what? Cuz youre wrong that Heavy can deal equal damage. This has literally never been the case, and especially is not now with Crit Damage on Medium. Like I said above when Med gave Crit Chance this could be equalized with Mech Acuity, but Medium still had the Weapon Damage buff.

Urzigurumash · August 4

And the Thief Warrior Mage is a TES theme, it's represented clearly in the green blue red Champion trees, for instance

Urzigurumash · August 4

Let me repaste my most important point:

The different armor weights ought to be able to achieve a comparable level of overall defense and overall offense, through different means and at different resource costs.

Edit: also the Armor passives were revised more recently, remember when they added the Armor Penalties?

PureeEvil · August 4

Urzigurumash wrote: »

So Medium should get -10% Healing Received or what? Cuz youre wrong that Heavy can deal equal damage. This has literally never been the case, and especially is not now with Crit Damage on Medium. Like I said above when Med gave Crit Chance this could be equalized with Mech Acuity, but Medium still had the Weapon Damage buff.

if they cancel the damage scaling reduction, can add your debuff. But as long as the damage scaling reduction is there, there is already an unwritten debuff on medium armor.

Urzigurumash · August 4

PureeEvil wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

So Medium should get -10% Healing Received or what? Cuz youre wrong that Heavy can deal equal damage. This has literally never been the case, and especially is not now with Crit Damage on Medium. Like I said above when Med gave Crit Chance this could be equalized with Mech Acuity, but Medium still had the Weapon Damage buff.

if they cancel the damage scaling reduction, can add your debuff. But as long as the damage scaling reduction is there, there is already an unwritten debuff on medium armor.

Well you know each new bonus you add decreases the relative value of the prior bonii. So you can say the same thing for every stat if I understand what youre saying about the WD buff losing strength as you add more WD

Markytous · August 4

The benefits that Heavy Armor provide isn't what is causing players to be unkillable. It doesn't provide the mitigation that many believe that it does. Critical Resistance and Blocking are much more egregious and any player has access to these things. Think about this: Major Protection gives an equivalent to 6600 Armor or 10% Damage Mitigation and you can just slot this. Heavy Armor comes with a penalty to magic damage and mobility.

SkaiFaith · August 4

Also "it wouldn't affect PvE in any way"... Soloists would like to have a word on that.

PureeEvil · August 4

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Also "it wouldn't affect PvE in any way"... Soloists would like to have a word on that.

oh well... bilds on Leeching Plate will suffer, not realy bad. i play solo. solo bild on midle/lught armor working good.

JustLovely · August 4

PureeEvil wrote: »

I wanted to praise the subclassing and the entire update until I reached the highest mmr on BG on new acc. And it's about what happened to heavy armor. Or rather, what kind of damage can now be taken in full heavy armor. Due to the possibilities of sub-classing, as well as the reduction of damage scaling after a certain number of spd/wpd, we have equal damage for 3-5 parts havy armor playrs and playrse in middle/light armor. And that's not even taking into account the new bash builds. Vampire builds that reduce your health from 50,000 to 30,000 and deal a lot of damage. and that not normal. Havy armor cant give get damage level middle/light armor with only 5% speed debuff its not normal.

My suggestion is to add -10% damage to each piece of heavy armor in their debuffs. It doesn't affect PvE in any way. However, in PvP, it removes the ridiculous similarity in damage between medium and heavy armor. Alternatively, it can be used to remove the scaling reduction.

I like the idea, but I think the scale should be different. I'd say a 2% dps cut for each piece of heavy armor would be more than enough. So a tank with 7 heavy pieces would have 14% less dps, which might not sound like that much, but it's a ton. Also, most of us PvP mains only wear 1-3 pieces of heavy armor anyway.

Avran_Sylt · August 4

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Let me repaste my most important point:

The different armor weights ought to be able to achieve a comparable level of overall defense and overall offense, through different means and at different resource costs.

Edit: also the Armor passives were revised more recently, remember when they added the Armor Penalties?

What do you mean by "different resource costs"? Then the one with the smallest resource cost with comparable damage comes out on top.

PureeEvil · August 5

JustLovely wrote: »

PureeEvil wrote: »

I wanted to praise the subclassing and the entire update until I reached the highest mmr on BG on new acc. And it's about what happened to heavy armor. Or rather, what kind of damage can now be taken in full heavy armor. Due to the possibilities of sub-classing, as well as the reduction of damage scaling after a certain number of spd/wpd, we have equal damage for 3-5 parts havy armor playrs and playrse in middle/light armor. And that's not even taking into account the new bash builds. Vampire builds that reduce your health from 50,000 to 30,000 and deal a lot of damage. and that not normal. Havy armor cant give get damage level middle/light armor with only 5% speed debuff its not normal.

My suggestion is to add -10% damage to each piece of heavy armor in their debuffs. It doesn't affect PvE in any way. However, in PvP, it removes the ridiculous similarity in damage between medium and heavy armor. Alternatively, it can be used to remove the scaling reduction.

I like the idea, but I think the scale should be different. I'd say a 2% dps cut for each piece of heavy armor would be more than enough. So a tank with 7 heavy pieces would have 14% less dps, which might not sound like that much, but it's a ton. Also, most of us PvP mains only wear 1-3 pieces of heavy armor anyway.

it's too little. Your debuff will override buff from lithning stuff or Merciless Charge.

Yes 50% for 5 parts. m/l armor can be tanky no problem with it.

Urzigurumash · August 5

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Let me repaste my most important point:

The different armor weights ought to be able to achieve a comparable level of overall defense and overall offense, through different means and at different resource costs.

Edit: also the Armor passives were revised more recently, remember when they added the Armor Penalties?

What do you mean by "different resource costs"? Then the one with the smallest resource cost with comparable damage comes out on top.

Med and Light have the Regen and Skill Cost modifiers, Windwalker and Evocation, Heavy has Constitution and Rejuvenation. Importantly, much like DK's passives Combustion and Battle Roar, Heavy's sustain only functions while in combat, whereas Medium and Light's function at all times, in fact they are stronger OUT of combat. This helps promote the Facetank vs Kite playstyle we would expect in Warrior vs Thief.

@PureeEvil Can you explain what you meant when you said Medium and Light's damage bonus doesnt work as well after 5k WD? How does Lights Pen and Crit Chance lose effectiveness with more WD after 5k?

PureeEvil · August 5

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Let me repaste my most important point:

The different armor weights ought to be able to achieve a comparable level of overall defense and overall offense, through different means and at different resource costs.

Edit: also the Armor passives were revised more recently, remember when they added the Armor Penalties?

What do you mean by "different resource costs"? Then the one with the smallest resource cost with comparable damage comes out on top.

Med and Light have the Regen and Skill Cost modifiers, Windwalker and Evocation, Heavy has Constitution and Rejuvenation. Importantly, much like DK's passives Combustion and Battle Roar, Heavy's sustain only functions while in combat, whereas Medium and Light's function at all times, in fact they are stronger OUT of combat. This helps promote the Facetank vs Kite playstyle we would expect in Warrior vs Thief.

@PureeEvil Can you explain what you meant when you said Medium and Light's damage bonus doesnt work as well after 5k WD? How does Lights Pen and Crit Chance lose effectiveness with more WD after 5k?

I don't remember exactly at what value the increase in weapon power starts to give a smaller increase after 4000 or 5000. But yes, at some point, the increase in damage from weapon power becomes not 2.5% per 100 weapon power for example, but 1.5%.

for example if you have 6000 spd +12-15% of damage from lithning stuff/Merciless Charge/Deadly Strike/Piercing Cold be more powerfull then 1000-1500 spd.

for get same damage what give dudes on high crit i use 7500 spd and 2-3 % bufss from lithning stuff/Merciless Charge/Deadly Strike now. you can get a high crit now or damage from spd+%buffs in havy armor.

Urzigurumash · August 5

PureeEvil wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Let me repaste my most important point:

The different armor weights ought to be able to achieve a comparable level of overall defense and overall offense, through different means and at different resource costs.

Edit: also the Armor passives were revised more recently, remember when they added the Armor Penalties?

What do you mean by "different resource costs"? Then the one with the smallest resource cost with comparable damage comes out on top.

Med and Light have the Regen and Skill Cost modifiers, Windwalker and Evocation, Heavy has Constitution and Rejuvenation. Importantly, much like DK's passives Combustion and Battle Roar, Heavy's sustain only functions while in combat, whereas Medium and Light's function at all times, in fact they are stronger OUT of combat. This helps promote the Facetank vs Kite playstyle we would expect in Warrior vs Thief.

@PureeEvil Can you explain what you meant when you said Medium and Light's damage bonus doesnt work as well after 5k WD? How does Lights Pen and Crit Chance lose effectiveness with more WD after 5k?

I don't remember exactly at what value the increase in weapon power starts to give a smaller increase after 4000 or 5000. But yes, at some point, the increase in damage from weapon power becomes not 2.5% per 100 weapon power for example, but 1.5%.

So if I have 1000 WD and I add 500, I increased my WD by 50%. If I add an additional 500, I've increased it by only 33%. 500 after that, it's 25%. You mean like that?

PureeEvil · August 5

Urzigurumash wrote: »

PureeEvil wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Let me repaste my most important point:

The different armor weights ought to be able to achieve a comparable level of overall defense and overall offense, through different means and at different resource costs.

Edit: also the Armor passives were revised more recently, remember when they added the Armor Penalties?

What do you mean by "different resource costs"? Then the one with the smallest resource cost with comparable damage comes out on top.

Med and Light have the Regen and Skill Cost modifiers, Windwalker and Evocation, Heavy has Constitution and Rejuvenation. Importantly, much like DK's passives Combustion and Battle Roar, Heavy's sustain only functions while in combat, whereas Medium and Light's function at all times, in fact they are stronger OUT of combat. This helps promote the Facetank vs Kite playstyle we would expect in Warrior vs Thief.

@PureeEvil Can you explain what you meant when you said Medium and Light's damage bonus doesnt work as well after 5k WD? How does Lights Pen and Crit Chance lose effectiveness with more WD after 5k?

I don't remember exactly at what value the increase in weapon power starts to give a smaller increase after 4000 or 5000. But yes, at some point, the increase in damage from weapon power becomes not 2.5% per 100 weapon power for example, but 1.5%.

So if I have 1000 WD and I add 500, I increased my WD by 50%. If I add an additional 500, I've increased it by only 33%. 500 after that, it's 25%. You mean like that?

something like that.

for example you get now nb lequdation, templar aedra, necro dd line or sorc stric or warden frost or pet line. when you in midle/light armor its work too hard. but when you get on havy armor you its compansate mising healing line and you can upt to 6500-7500 spd crit or % bufs from stuff.

Urzigurumash · August 5

Liquidation

We use that for targeted killing by like secret police and military dictatorships and such, but not for thieves and criminals. The NB line is called Assassination which we use more broadly, for organized crime as well as political or extrajudicial killing.

So actually what I take from that is you're disappointed with the diminishing returns on Crit Damage - the stacking of NB, Plar etc Crit Damage buffs has weakened the effect of the Medium Crit Damage buff, so much so that you can put on Heavy and enjoy the same Crit Damage as a NB or Templar did in Medium last patch.

You're absolutely right about that, 100%, and it's an interesting point that nobody is making - mostly because Crit Damage stacking is so strong right now nobody's thinking about how any part of it has become weakened.

But yours is the wrong solution because it only addresses the imbalances of the current subclass meta in a small way, while leaving a massive ripple of new imbalances in its wake. What about the Only Class with No Unique Crit buff, built for Melee and Heavy Armor, suddenly very non-meta DK? I'm doing my best as a PureDK right now in SEVEN heavy for the first time in nearly as many years - and thats the ONLY build I'm playing without Monomyth and its big uptime on Major Force.

Not that my off meta play is that relevant - in fact what is the meta armor setup right now on the NB Templar Sorc Warden Crit Damage stacks?

Urzigurumash · August 5

Mostly we use Liquidation for business and commerce, like when a business is selling assets or - the most common use in America - a furniture store is selling things at a discounted price. Liquidation in the violent sense has the connotation of a political purge.

Urzigurumash · August 5

Yeah your point isnt totally bogus, basically youre saying putting on some Heavy lets people get away with dropping their defensive skill line, putting a Maim on Heavy would expose their lack of investment into defense. Interesting point, thing is theyd still drop their defensive line, and Heavy armor is much more of a neccesity now for its traditional low Crit Damage, low Sustain while kiting users, because of the new stacking of Crit Damage.

I need to check out what the meta build actually is in terms of armor weight and traits. I see a lot of people saying Impenetrable should be buffed to lessen the impact of the new Crit Damage stack.

Like you think a 7 Medium SorcDenBlade would lose to a 7 Medium PureDK? I'm skeptical. TrueDK is 7 Heavy, bring back the Old Ways, we don't deserve -70% Damage Done 😆

Meiox · August 5

PureeEvil wrote: »

...
My suggestion is to add -10% damage to each piece of heavy armor in their debuffs. It doesn't affect PvE in any way.
...

How does that not affect PVE?
Many builds have at least one heavy armor for the undaunted buff

Avran_Sylt · August 5

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Let me repaste my most important point:

The different armor weights ought to be able to achieve a comparable level of overall defense and overall offense, through different means and at different resource costs.

Edit: also the Armor passives were revised more recently, remember when they added the Armor Penalties?

What do you mean by "different resource costs"? Then the one with the smallest resource cost with comparable damage comes out on top.

Med and Light have the Regen and Skill Cost modifiers, Windwalker and Evocation, Heavy has Constitution and Rejuvenation. Importantly, much like DK's passives Combustion and Battle Roar, Heavy's sustain only functions while in combat, whereas Medium and Light's function at all times, in fact they are stronger OUT of combat. This helps promote the Facetank vs Kite playstyle we would expect in Warrior vs Thief.

Kiting implies resource attrition gameplay, but that playstyle is long dead given the ease of self-healing and resource regen to mitigate said lower damage output.

And even when it was alive it was usually the Facetanks bopping each other for long enough for someone to make too many mistakes with their skills or get lucky crits.

Current gameplay is Facetank or nukes, and resource cost reductions don't facilitate nukes, albeit the penetration and WD/SP does, countered by block mitigation ('cept most nuke openers use unblockable BS nowadays) and that all damage modifiers are halved in PvP, making their impact a bit more uncertain compared to hp bonuses. (presumably this is why resolve is less then half of prodigy, albeit it may also be due to the other passives and inherently lower armor stat increasing damage taken)