So ICE will never have that ‘dragon knight’ class? :(

ESO_Nightingale · August 4

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Alharion wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Alharion wrote: »

Hi, I've always loved being able to play ‘ICE’ spells, but unfortunately (and yes, it's always this, but) MMORPGs very rarely offer a class as specific to this element, or when they do, it's very often ice = tank , but I don't understand why fire always has the privilege of being a class?

So yes, I can see you coming, to tell me ‘you have an ice branch with the guardian’ and ‘you have the mages guild branch’, yes, I agree, but if we look at DK the 3 branches of the dragon knight are all 100% fire thinking all maximizes fire, which is not the case with the guardian or only one branch is dedicated to ice and mainly think to be tank.

So my question is this for the devs, would it be possible to have the same fair equivalence to the DK class, but for ice elemental magic, this is what I expect more than anything now in TESO, I hope this dream will come true one day.

I think the demand is legitimate here, given that there are already some good examples out there. Will TESO finally be able to “break” this sad MMORPG tradition?

You already have an Ice class with subclassing. It's Winter's Embrace, Grave Lord, Herald of the Tome.

This complemented with scribing and weapon skills you can have every skill be ice.

ESO is now essentially a classless game with some relics of better years of class identity left behind.

Except that the problem, this branch is generally designed for a tank orientation.

If we look even more closely, Fire has its own class and the mages guild adapts to this element regarding the choice of weapon, so if it works well for fire, this should logically also work well for an Ice class.

The ice branch on the goalkeeper should (in my opinion) clearly have been associated with something like bramble/leaf.

Now, I don’t know if it could be considered, but I really hope that this class can see the light of day, it’s really something I’m waiting for the most in TESO now to have more fun coming back on the game. It’s really a shame that in the entirety of MMORPGs only a fire class has the right to exist, but not an ice cream...

The goal is to play the way you want not 'be competitive the way you want'.

Can you play a 'Full Ice build' - Yes.

This doesn't mean it has to be optimal.

While true, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't hope for changes and reworks to make it far more competitive than it currently is.

Why should Ice specifically be changed / reworked over other things? ZOS Pivoted Ice to be a 'tanking' style a long time ago so it makes sense that this 'tanking style' would not also output so much damage. You can still play pure Ice and complete almost all content in the game, same as any other builds. You only 'need' to be somewhat optimal for trifecta content.

Because frost damage builds are a core power fantasy in fantasy rpg games.

tomofhyrule · August 4

I have to say, I absolutely hate the people who are like "I hate how ice is in ESO and you should change it because the people who do like how it is are completely irrelevant"

I'm still salty about that one patch that changed Piercing Cold to increase damage specifically if you were holding a frost staff - it was essentially ZOS saying "fine, we know that a lot of people want to DPS with a tanking weapon, so we're just going to make it so if you play a Warden who isn't a frost mage, you just get a massive damage nerf."
At least that got reverted, but still...

Yes, ice is a tanking weapon in ESO... and pretty well every other MMO. Heck, most RPGs with elemental powers put ice on the defensive side to oppose an offensive fire. To me, this is a lot like people who want to make a Sword-and-board DPS a thing - worse actually, since most of the people who want "frost DPS" are not satisfied with frost being a capable DPS, but they want frost as the best DPS and to remove it from tanking completely.

As for Warden itself, I have no problem with the theme. It is a bit mixed around, but my Warden is a Skaal: a nature themed Nord from the frozen northern regions of Tamriel who is really in touch with animals. I actually can't think of a better Class to fit that character.

YandereGirlfriend · August 4

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I have to say, I absolutely hate the people who are like "I hate how ice is in ESO and you should change it because the people who do like how it is are completely irrelevant"

I'm still salty about that one patch that changed Piercing Cold to increase damage specifically if you were holding a frost staff - it was essentially ZOS saying "fine, we know that a lot of people want to DPS with a tanking weapon, so we're just going to make it so if you play a Warden who isn't a frost mage, you just get a massive damage nerf."
At least that got reverted, but still...

Yes, ice is a tanking weapon in ESO... and pretty well every other MMO. Heck, most RPGs with elemental powers put ice on the defensive side to oppose an offensive fire. To me, this is a lot like people who want to make a Sword-and-board DPS a thing - worse actually, since most of the people who want "frost DPS" are not satisfied with frost being a capable DPS, but they want frost as the best DPS and to remove it from tanking completely.

As for Warden itself, I have no problem with the theme. It is a bit mixed around, but my Warden is a Skaal: a nature themed Nord from the frozen northern regions of Tamriel who is really in touch with animals. I actually can't think of a better Class to fit that character.

Except that the entire history of the Elder Scrolls franchise would contradict you. Frost is a valid DESTRUCTION element.

tomofhyrule · August 4

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I have to say, I absolutely hate the people who are like "I hate how ice is in ESO and you should change it because the people who do like how it is are completely irrelevant"

I'm still salty about that one patch that changed Piercing Cold to increase damage specifically if you were holding a frost staff - it was essentially ZOS saying "fine, we know that a lot of people want to DPS with a tanking weapon, so we're just going to make it so if you play a Warden who isn't a frost mage, you just get a massive damage nerf."
At least that got reverted, but still...

Yes, ice is a tanking weapon in ESO... and pretty well every other MMO. Heck, most RPGs with elemental powers put ice on the defensive side to oppose an offensive fire. To me, this is a lot like people who want to make a Sword-and-board DPS a thing - worse actually, since most of the people who want "frost DPS" are not satisfied with frost being a capable DPS, but they want frost as the best DPS and to remove it from tanking completely.

As for Warden itself, I have no problem with the theme. It is a bit mixed around, but my Warden is a Skaal: a nature themed Nord from the frozen northern regions of Tamriel who is really in touch with animals. I actually can't think of a better Class to fit that character.

Except that the entire history of the Elder Scrolls franchise would contradict you. Frost is a valid DESTRUCTION element.

This may come as an absolute shock to people, but...
an MMO does need to have some different rules than single-player games in a lot of things.

But I also really hate the concept of people who are like "you don't hate that this thing had to change since the format changed to allow other people in so therefore you don't know anything about the series!"
So let's play your game then.
ARENA and DAGGERFALL
Not much difference here, since TES was still in its "D&D spinoff" days. Still, the available spells in both Arena and Daggerfall are seriously weighted towards having more fire offensively and only two or three frost spells. Oddly, frost is the only element in Daggerfall that has a non-destruction spell, and it's in the school of Thaumaturgy (aka NOT destruction).
MORROWIND:
Fire damage projectiles travel at a faster speed than frost damage projectiles, meaning that you can get higher DPS with fire. The major issue is resistances, as Dunmer resist fire (but undead are weak to it) and Nords are immune to frost. Shock damage has way fewer enemies that resist it, but it does cost more.
OBLIVION:
The spell damage types change the projectile, meaning that frost can be a larger projectile and do more damage as it travels, but only at close range, while fire can make an explosion at a placeable area and shock travels much faster in a bolt.
SKYRIM:
Skyrim was really the one where it was making the difference between fire as a DoT and frost as a CC. Frost spells in Skyrim will snare enemies and can be upgraded to paralyze them. Let's also look at Dragon Shouts - frost had a version that allowed you to immobilize enemies.

Again, the fact that TES games are single player and ESO is an MMO means there are some concessions that need to be made when converting to an MMO format. So yes, they leaned much harder into Skyrim's version of "fire = more damage" and "frost = crowd control," and in many MMOs CC is a support job. That's also why in most RPGs, frots does tend to lean harder into the defensive/CC realm and fire into the DoT realm (and shock into the direct damage realm).
The other part of this is trying to make each element unique. The ESO Tri-focus passive shows the point of making different elements feel more different from each other, such that a 'fire mage' and a 'frost mage' and a 'storm mage' all feel different. ESO's gone down the route of "Fire = higher damage, frost = CC, shock = AoE" for that passive. We can also see the ESO enemies since basegame, as most of the frost mage types we've seen as mobs have that attack that spawns a wall and gives a damage shield (so, a defensive move). ESO has really leaned into frost as a defensive tool.

Also, "destruction" doesn't specifically need to mean "does high damage." After all, tanks who use a sword-and-board do use a sword, which is a damaging weapon. Are you implying that a tank should dual-wield shields to make sure there's no damaging component? (not to mention that shield attacks are still possible). In fact, Destruction magic in the TES series does also include Vulnerability spells (e.g. "Weakness to Fire"), which are more like moves that apply debuffs rather than spells that do damage directly.

It is totally possible to make a viable frost mage in ESO. It's always been. It just isn't super meta, but it can do a lot of damage. And now, with Subclassing, you can make a few different versions of a frost mage (then again, now nothing is meta except the Arcbladeplar).
But what doesn't need to happen is to rip something away from people because you don't like the way they act with it.

ESO_Nightingale · August 5

I feel like this discussion is getting away from us. While i personally think frost tanking isn't the direction i wanted frost magic to go in eso, the suggestions I've been pushing lately don't remotely negatively impact tanks at all and they also specifically don't compound tanking and dpsing power together because i don't want to disrupt frost tanking while making frost dps uber defensive and offensive. Specific examples i can list are:
I think there should be a mythic that adds power for frost dps builds but disables ancient knowledge, or a direct line on ancient knowledge that uses a condition to give you more damage or the blocking bonuses.

Additionally, i think that many morphs of winters embrace could be combined together and the now open morph reworked into a damage skill (frost cloak and frozen gate) so that the choice becomes based on role like how it is with impaling shards and arctic wind. I think that morph choice design is incredibly impactful.

While I can't talk about other people's ideas i can say that as the primary person raising my voice about this subject, i don't think theres any reason to be fighting amongst ourselves like this. There are ways we can have our cake and eat it too. I'm not trying to remove frost tanking. I'm just trying to make my power fantasy feel really impactful and competitive in this game. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Alharion · August 5

I will never understand those who want to prevent a new class using as a pretext that the lore would not allow for this class, while quite the opposite allows it x)

Are you forgetting about the mage guild? just that it makes those who want to refuse an Ice class wrong;)

and as if well said, by some an MMORPG must make concessions with the lore, but here nothing would be violated in any case in this lore.