Would love this too. It's bad game design.

Or at the very least, remove them from pledge rotation.

thorwyn wrote: »

Anything that's not tank'n'spank is bad game design. Got it.

This is veretal content. Veteran... as in "not supposed to be easy". Veteran as in "not designed for PUGs with no or limited knowledge". How can we possibly expect players to get used to more complicated trial mechanics if we dull down each and every opportunity to teachand practice by removing even the easiest mechanics and allowing them to burn everything?

It's bad game design because you can complete the entire encounter without ever knowing that you missed a mechanic for HM rewards.

If you could read a scroll that would make it so that killing a Daedroth/Wraith automatically wipes the group, new players will understand that there are extra mechanics that need to be completed.

If you can't PUG base game veteran dungeons, that's... sort of your problem. 😂
Most people can, and regularly do PUG veteran HM pledges, with zero issues. The things that make those two dungeons unique (in a bad way) are the missable HM mechanics. You don't see them in normal mode, and they are not a completion condition on veteran mode.

I'm also a little surprised that you think these mechanics are good practice to prepare players for trials... I mean, in BC2, the HM mechanic is literally for the dd's to ignore the adds and focus on the boss (the complete opposite of what you're supposed to do in 99% of trials,) and in CoH2, you just have to slow down your dps, plus ignore adds (which, again, is the complete opposite of what you're supposed to do in 99% of trials.)

It's bad game design, plain and simple.

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

Would love this too. It's bad game design.

Or at the very least, remove them from pledge rotation.

Far from it. It demands a shakeup of playstyle: Instead of killing everything as soon as it comes up, you're incentivized to play in another manner.

The only time I don't "like" it is when I'm fake-tanking and need to swap up my gear and abilities to hold aggro. (but with the armory system it's much faster to do that now).

Ishtarknows wrote: »

If you have the undaunted pledge it tells you in the description exactly what you need to do for the hard mode. In console UI it's top right of the screen, no idea for PC.

Base game dungeons are easy, let's not dumb down them even more.

I already know how HM works in these dungeons. I'm saying people who are new and don't know probably also don't know that they have to read the pledge description, because they don't need to do that for all other dungeons.
In other dungeons, you have to opt into HM before the encounter begins, everyone can see that you opted in (by reading the scroll/raising the flag) and completing the new mechanics becomes a requirement for completion.

I didn't call for the dungeons to be made easier or dumbed down. I would prefer it if these mechanics could be reworked/enforced, or if these two dungeons can be removed from the pledge rotation. But if that doesn't happen, then I'll just continue doing what I do now. I either skip them, or do them and explain how HM works to the new players, and if the new players still don't understand or don't speak English, then I vote kick and complete the pledge without them. Simple.

I don't think these are bad design, the "keep alive" mechs just didnt keep up with power creep. Double or even triple the adds health just so the hms can be completed at all. I've accidentally killed wraiths on my tank just from taunting them.

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

If you have the undaunted pledge it tells you in the description exactly what you need to do for the hard mode. In console UI it's top right of the screen, no idea for PC.

Base game dungeons are easy, let's not dumb down them even more.

I already know how HM works in these dungeons. I'm saying people who are new and don't know probably also don't know that they have to read the pledge description, because they don't need to do that for all other dungeons.
In other dungeons, you have to opt into HM before the encounter begins, everyone can see that you opted in (by reading the scroll/raising the flag) and completing the new mechanics becomes a requirement for completion.

I didn't call for the dungeons to be made easier or dumbed down. I would prefer it if these mechanics could be reworked/enforced, or if these two dungeons can be removed from the pledge rotation. But if that doesn't happen, then I'll just continue doing what I do now. I either skip them, or do them and explain how HM works to the new players, and if the new players still don't understand or don't speak English, then I vote kick and complete the pledge without them. Simple.

You have something other than a DPS check...

Congrats?

The problem is pugs dont listen - i usually tank pledge vet pug or random normal pugs...you know how often pug newer players actually listen to what the tank tells them about mechanics besides just hitting the damage button? MAYBE 10% of my runs...one reason why no one wants to play tanks

If you can't PUG base game veteran dungeons, that's... sort of your problem. 😂
Most people can, and regularly do PUG veteran HM pledges, with zero issues.

¿que?
I can deal with PUG's just fine. I wasn't complaining about dungeon mechanics being too difficult and unintuitive for PUG's, you guys were. That was literally in the first post of this thread:

These are extremely annoying to explain and do with pugs why i usually just stopped doing them all together and just skipp them...

Also:

I'm also a little surprised that you think these mechanics are good practice to prepare players for trials... I mean, in BC2, the HM mechanic is literally for the dd's to ignore the adds and focus on the boss (the complete opposite of what you're supposed to do in 99% of trials,) and in CoH2, you just have to slow down your dps, plus ignore adds (which, again, is the complete opposite of what you're supposed to do in 99% of trials.)

Yeah and 99% of the dungeon mechanics are braindead unga-bunga.
And if you ever heard a raidlead screaming for DPS stop at the twins in vDSR or Bahsei in vRG or ANY other trial encounter with hp percentage triggers, you will perhaps understand why those BC2 and COH2 mechanics are not that bad in regards to raising awareness of the fact that sometimes DD's need to actually slow down and pay attention to what's happening. Because those are usually the bosses that are claiming the majority of wipes.

redlink1979 wrote: »

Some mechanics may not obvious but you can't consider that a bad design.

Oh, I agree that mechanics don't need to be obvious. But if the game doesn't incentivize you to experiment and discover those mechanics, (for example, through enrage/wipe events,) then the players ignorant of those mechanics get to set the pace of the fight, and therefore they decide what rewards you get, even though you are aware of and prepared to do the mechanics.

thorwyn wrote: »

¿que?
I can deal with PUG's just fine. I wasn't complaining about dungeon mechanics being too difficult and unintuitive for PUG's, you guys were.

Neither one of us said it was difficult. What are you talking about? You were the one who said veteran dungeons are not supposed to be easy, and not supposed to be pugged. I simply told you that they are easy, and are constantly being pugged.
Our complaints about BC2 and CoH2 have absolutely nothing to do with content difficulty level, and everything to do with how HM works.

Yeah and 99% of the dungeon mechanics are braindead unga-bunga.
And if you ever heard a raidlead screaming for DPS stop at the twins in vDSR or Bahsei in vRG or ANY other trial encounter with hp percentage triggers, you will perhaps understand why those BC2 and COH2 mechanics are not that bad in regards to raising awareness of the fact that sometimes DD's need to actually slow down and pay attention to what's happening. Because those are usually the bosses that are claiming the majority of wipes.

And in all the examples you just cited, there are consequences for not knowing the mechanics. You get wiped again and again, until you learn the mechanic. THAT is good game design.
You know what happens in BC2 and CoH2 if you don't do the HM mechanics? Nothing. The activity is completed. Have fun starting over, or just accept half the reward. 😂

If people can´t read chat where you explain something to them that´s of importance for whatever reason, you kick them. I´ve been in the exact same situation on the same Hard Modes (was duo with a friend and was joined by 2 randoms through group finder). We explained shortly before the fight to keep X alive until Y mechanic happen etc. We were very clear that it was a pledge and we were after extra keys. When we noticed that both of them completely ignored the calls and just went full DPS on the bosses we simply removed them from the group. Got two salty ragewhispers shortly after but if you´re too incompetent to read and understand basic english then maybe you shouldn´t do group content with other players?....idk

preevious wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

The problem is pugs dont listen - i usually tank pledge vet pug or random normal pugs...you know how often pug newer players actually listen to what the tank tells them about mechanics besides just hitting the damage button? MAYBE 10% of my runs...one reason why no one wants to play tanks

Of course, PUGs seldom listen. They are PUGs.
It's peerfectly natural that PUGs should fail more ofter than pre-made group.

No, really, those HM are fine as is. And I do fail them from time to time because I PUG, too.
It"s only 1 key and 2 cristals. Not so bad.

yeah, just makes me not doing them in the first place and so will most likely many other tanks / players...so fewer players, i guess if thats the goal there you go

thorwyn wrote: »

Anything that's not tank'n'spank is bad game design. Got it.

This is veretan content. Veteran... as in "not supposed to be easy". Veteran as in "not designed for PUGs with no or limited knowledge". How can we possibly expect players to get used to more complicated trial mechanics if we dull down each and every opportunity to teachand practice by removing even the easiest mechanics and allowing them to burn everything?

This has to be one of the most lucidly cogent rebuttals I have read on this forum.

tincanman wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Anything that's not tank'n'spank is bad game design. Got it.

This is veretan content. Veteran... as in "not supposed to be easy". Veteran as in "not designed for PUGs with no or limited knowledge". How can we possibly expect players to get used to more complicated trial mechanics if we dull down each and every opportunity to teachand practice by removing even the easiest mechanics and allowing them to burn everything?

This has to be one of the most lucidly cogent rebuttals I have read on this forum.

I disagree. It is applying a blanket principle without any consideration for individual circumstances. Those fights don't actually teach anything that would be useful in a trial. In fact, they work the opposite of most trial mechanics.

ETA
I do agree with the statement on principle but it's also important to consider individual circumstances.

I share the frustration but this is the dumbest request ever.

PUGs don't listen? Well then either make them or find proper people to do those specific pledges in a correct way.
It literally takes one minute to find people capable of reading and doing those pledges, I've failed them with idiots but it took me what, 10 minutes to redo them with friends.

CoH2 and BC2 are literally the only content that subclass hasn't obliterated, it was hard to do before (because of dumb PUGs I mean) and it still is hard, there's no overpowered accessibility bullcrap that makes them work!
If they take them down it's literally the company telling the players how *** they are expected to be and they might as well spit in our face since we'd deserve it :'D

Just learn to make friends, there's tons of people both in guilds or simply alone (group finder) that would repeat a pledge just to help, they know the struggle and it's literally no problem to spend 10 minutes again. Don't change the mechanics if the problem is in someone's brain and can't read the assignment.