Now is a great time for more Crit resist options

s3dulo · July 30

With subclassing, crit resist has become more important than ever in PVP. This has a created a scenario where Rallying Cry is extremely difficult to get away from if you want to compete at the highest levels. It's doable but Rallying Cry is just better. Crit chance + huge crit resist boost + 300 w/s damage + backbar proc. It's hard to pass up. Adding more crit resist options would go a long way toward viable build variety. I'd love to see crit resist jewelry traits, a crit resist mundus, and maybe even a boost to Resilience CP. Perhaps take it to the 800 - 900 range.

moo_2021 · July 30

why not restore old impen trait? I read it used to be impactful. Instead of adding more stuff they should rebalance existing things that have been long abandoned.

MincMincMinc · July 31

moo_2021 wrote: »

why not restore old impen trait? I read it used to be impactful. Instead of adding more stuff they should rebalance existing things that have been long abandoned.

Basically they gutted impen and now you need to run the resilience cp......however BGs which is half the pvp content cant slot the cp.

What needs to happen is to un-power creep crit damage. Zos is likely going to have to prevent the stacking of class crit damage buffs. Like animal 10% + aedric 12% + assassin 10%.

Thumbless_Bot · August 1

It should be a mundus option.

YandereGirlfriend · August 2

Mundus absolutely (and we conveniently have a redundant Mundus available...) but I also would definitely not say no to having it available from Alchemy as well. Say, 10%.

There's tons of things wrong with Alchemy currently so it would be easy to find the space in a revamp.

Avran_Sylt · August 2

You do realize that with those options, you STILL HAVE Rallying cry to stack on top of that?

Is your goal to ensure that all crit damage to you is the same as regular damage in perpetuity?

Are you going to advocate for crit damage jewelry traits? Or are you only viewing this from a one-sided perspective?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

why not restore old impen trait? I read it used to be impactful. Instead of adding more stuff they should rebalance existing things that have been long abandoned.

Basically they gutted impen and now you need to run the resilience cp......however BGs which is half the pvp content cant slot the cp.

What needs to happen is to un-power creep crit damage. Zos is likely going to have to prevent the stacking of class crit damage buffs. Like animal 10% + aedric 12% + assassin 10%.

Critical resistance (at least according to this thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p1) is 1% reduced critical damage per 68 critical reisstance

Impen provides 1.94% crit damage reduction. Comparatively, A Divines Shadow piece of armor increases Crit damage by 1.001%

Resilience provides 9.7% crit damage reduction compared to Fighting Finesse's 8% increased crit damage.

All crit resist sources in the game literally overpower all crit damage sources.

This stuff doesn't need to be buffed.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Mundus absolutely (and we conveniently have a redundant Mundus available...) but I also would definitely not say no to having it available from Alchemy as well. Say, 10%.

There's tons of things wrong with Alchemy currently so it would be easy to find the space in a revamp.

Especially not a literal free 10% extra crit damage mitigation. Seriously, then baseline PvP crit damage is just an extra 20% damage. At this point just disable crits in PvP so PvE players are less likely to fall into the trap of "crits = good" over raw stats and sustain.

Thumbless_Bot · August 2

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

You do realize that with those options, you STILL HAVE Rallying cry to stack on top of that?

Is your goal to ensure that all crit damage to you is the same as regular damage in perpetuity?

Are you going to advocate for crit damage jewelry traits? Or are you only viewing this from a one-sided perspective?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

why not restore old impen trait? I read it used to be impactful. Instead of adding more stuff they should rebalance existing things that have been long abandoned.

Basically they gutted impen and now you need to run the resilience cp......however BGs which is half the pvp content cant slot the cp.

What needs to happen is to un-power creep crit damage. Zos is likely going to have to prevent the stacking of class crit damage buffs. Like animal 10% + aedric 12% + assassin 10%.

Critical resistance (at least according to this thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p1) is 1% reduced critical damage per 68 critical reisstance

Impen provides 1.94% crit damage reduction. Comparatively, A Divines Shadow piece of armor increases Crit damage by 1.001%

Resilience provides 9.7% crit damage reduction compared to Fighting Finesse's 8% increased crit damage.

All crit resist sources in the game literally overpower all crit damage sources.

This stuff doesn't need to be buffed.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Mundus absolutely (and we conveniently have a redundant Mundus available...) but I also would definitely not say no to having it available from Alchemy as well. Say, 10%.

There's tons of things wrong with Alchemy currently so it would be easy to find the space in a revamp.

Especially not a literal free 10% extra crit damage mitigation. Seriously, then baseline PvP crit damage is just an extra 20% damage. At this point just disable crits in PvP so PvE players are less likely to fall into the trap of "crits = good" over raw stats and sustain.

A five piece and a mundus sound like a lot to give up to get high crit resist. It's like you have to build for it. More build options sounds good to me.

moo_2021 · August 2

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

You do realize that with those options, you STILL HAVE Rallying cry to stack on top of that?

only if you wear it.

If any one of the other three wears it, it'd be totally wasted to wear it yourself, which is why I never wear it.

That being said, the set could use some change, such as activating in PvE but not buffing group.

Avran_Sylt · August 3

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

You do realize that with those options, you STILL HAVE Rallying cry to stack on top of that?

Is your goal to ensure that all crit damage to you is the same as regular damage in perpetuity?

Are you going to advocate for crit damage jewelry traits? Or are you only viewing this from a one-sided perspective?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

why not restore old impen trait? I read it used to be impactful. Instead of adding more stuff they should rebalance existing things that have been long abandoned.

Basically they gutted impen and now you need to run the resilience cp......however BGs which is half the pvp content cant slot the cp.

What needs to happen is to un-power creep crit damage. Zos is likely going to have to prevent the stacking of class crit damage buffs. Like animal 10% + aedric 12% + assassin 10%.

Critical resistance (at least according to this thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p1) is 1% reduced critical damage per 68 critical reisstance

Impen provides 1.94% crit damage reduction. Comparatively, A Divines Shadow piece of armor increases Crit damage by 1.001%

Resilience provides 9.7% crit damage reduction compared to Fighting Finesse's 8% increased crit damage.

All crit resist sources in the game literally overpower all crit damage sources.

This stuff doesn't need to be buffed.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Mundus absolutely (and we conveniently have a redundant Mundus available...) but I also would definitely not say no to having it available from Alchemy as well. Say, 10%.

There's tons of things wrong with Alchemy currently so it would be easy to find the space in a revamp.

Especially not a literal free 10% extra crit damage mitigation. Seriously, then baseline PvP crit damage is just an extra 20% damage. At this point just disable crits in PvP so PvE players are less likely to fall into the trap of "crits = good" over raw stats and sustain.

A five piece and a mundus sound like a lot to give up to get high crit resist. It's like you have to build for it. More build options sounds good to me.

I don't disagree on the Mundus. (but also disagree on excluding crit damage from jewelry traits)

It's the shared 5-piece that irks me.

moo_2021 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

You do realize that with those options, you STILL HAVE Rallying cry to stack on top of that?

only if you wear it.

If any one of the other three wears it, it'd be totally wasted to wear it yourself, which is why I never wear it.

That being said, the set could use some change, such as activating in PvE but not buffing group.

Which is the thing, you don't have to wear it, it's a conditional "grouped mundus". Where's my:

"Critical damage with Combat Spirit active Grants 24% Critical Damage and 300 WD/SD to you and group members within 12m for 20s reducing critical damage bonus by 1.2% and WD/SD by 15 per affected group member"

Do you see those bloody numbers? That's what 1650 Critical Resistance effectively is. Heck I'd use that SOLO (and people use the defensive version solo too)

(Also note the person I responded to is a 4-man group, based on their wording "only if you wear it. If any one of the other three wears it,..." , so you know they're using it for a statistical superiority)

MincMincMinc · August 5

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

You do realize that with those options, you STILL HAVE Rallying cry to stack on top of that?

Is your goal to ensure that all crit damage to you is the same as regular damage in perpetuity?

Are you going to advocate for crit damage jewelry traits? Or are you only viewing this from a one-sided perspective?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

why not restore old impen trait? I read it used to be impactful. Instead of adding more stuff they should rebalance existing things that have been long abandoned.

Basically they gutted impen and now you need to run the resilience cp......however BGs which is half the pvp content cant slot the cp.

What needs to happen is to un-power creep crit damage. Zos is likely going to have to prevent the stacking of class crit damage buffs. Like animal 10% + aedric 12% + assassin 10%.

Critical resistance (at least according to this thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p1) is 1% reduced critical damage per 68 critical reisstance

Impen provides 1.94% crit damage reduction. Comparatively, A Divines Shadow piece of armor increases Crit damage by 1.001%

Resilience provides 9.7% crit damage reduction compared to Fighting Finesse's 8% increased crit damage.

All crit resist sources in the game literally overpower all crit damage sources.

This stuff doesn't need to be buffed.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Mundus absolutely (and we conveniently have a redundant Mundus available...) but I also would definitely not say no to having it available from Alchemy as well. Say, 10%.

There's tons of things wrong with Alchemy currently so it would be easy to find the space in a revamp.

Especially not a literal free 10% extra crit damage mitigation. Seriously, then baseline PvP crit damage is just an extra 20% damage. At this point just disable crits in PvP so PvE players are less likely to fall into the trap of "crits = good" over raw stats and sustain.

That thread is old like how people still quote the old armor and mit thread from the 2014-2015 era.

66 crit resists = 1% mitigation which means each armor piece of impen gives 2%. Fairly certain this changed around when they reworked armor traits and gave the base crit resist value hoping this evened the odds for pve players coming in with all divines......

Back in the day the resilience cp was baked into the base stats with impen. Now adays players lost this nearly 1/3 of their impen meanwhile through other power creep of cp, medium armor, skill line stacking, brittle, force sources all becoming so easy to get we now have 2x to 3x the crit damage values.

If impen was over powered by any means, we wouldnt see 99% of pvp builds running or having a source of Rallying Cry or transmutation in group.

Avran_Sylt · August 5

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

You do realize that with those options, you STILL HAVE Rallying cry to stack on top of that?

Is your goal to ensure that all crit damage to you is the same as regular damage in perpetuity?

Are you going to advocate for crit damage jewelry traits? Or are you only viewing this from a one-sided perspective?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

why not restore old impen trait? I read it used to be impactful. Instead of adding more stuff they should rebalance existing things that have been long abandoned.

Basically they gutted impen and now you need to run the resilience cp......however BGs which is half the pvp content cant slot the cp.

What needs to happen is to un-power creep crit damage. Zos is likely going to have to prevent the stacking of class crit damage buffs. Like animal 10% + aedric 12% + assassin 10%.

Critical resistance (at least according to this thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p1) is 1% reduced critical damage per 68 critical reisstance

Impen provides 1.94% crit damage reduction. Comparatively, A Divines Shadow piece of armor increases Crit damage by 1.001%

Resilience provides 9.7% crit damage reduction compared to Fighting Finesse's 8% increased crit damage.

All crit resist sources in the game literally overpower all crit damage sources.

This stuff doesn't need to be buffed.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Mundus absolutely (and we conveniently have a redundant Mundus available...) but I also would definitely not say no to having it available from Alchemy as well. Say, 10%.

There's tons of things wrong with Alchemy currently so it would be easy to find the space in a revamp.

Especially not a literal free 10% extra crit damage mitigation. Seriously, then baseline PvP crit damage is just an extra 20% damage. At this point just disable crits in PvP so PvE players are less likely to fall into the trap of "crits = good" over raw stats and sustain.

That thread is old like how people still quote the old armor and mit thread from the 2014-2015 era.

66 crit resists = 1% mitigation which means each armor piece of impen gives 2%. Fairly certain this changed around when they reworked armor traits and gave the base crit resist value hoping this evened the odds for pve players coming in with all divines......

Back in the day the resilience cp was baked into the base stats with impen. Now adays players lost this nearly 1/3 of their impen meanwhile through other power creep of cp, medium armor, skill line stacking, brittle, force sources all becoming so easy to get we now have 2x to 3x the crit damage values.

If impen was over powered by any means, we wouldnt see 99% of pvp builds running or having a source of Rallying Cry or transmutation in group.

Most all other sources of crit resistance work off of a lack of other sources of impen, meaning they're typically overtuned on a 1-to-1 slot comparison of crit sources, given a lack.

I'm not against more sources of impen, but if the values aren't tuned down nor accompanying crit damage sources being added, it'll just make crit damage generally useless, which, let me be clear I'm not against, so long as there is comparative opportunity cost.

And a note on Rallying cry: why wouldn't you use the literal most overturned PvP set in the entire game: Hundings Rage and Impregnables 5 piece from the same set?

MincMincMinc · August 5

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

You do realize that with those options, you STILL HAVE Rallying cry to stack on top of that?

Is your goal to ensure that all crit damage to you is the same as regular damage in perpetuity?

Are you going to advocate for crit damage jewelry traits? Or are you only viewing this from a one-sided perspective?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

why not restore old impen trait? I read it used to be impactful. Instead of adding more stuff they should rebalance existing things that have been long abandoned.

Basically they gutted impen and now you need to run the resilience cp......however BGs which is half the pvp content cant slot the cp.

What needs to happen is to un-power creep crit damage. Zos is likely going to have to prevent the stacking of class crit damage buffs. Like animal 10% + aedric 12% + assassin 10%.

Critical resistance (at least according to this thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p1) is 1% reduced critical damage per 68 critical reisstance

Impen provides 1.94% crit damage reduction. Comparatively, A Divines Shadow piece of armor increases Crit damage by 1.001%

Resilience provides 9.7% crit damage reduction compared to Fighting Finesse's 8% increased crit damage.

All crit resist sources in the game literally overpower all crit damage sources.

This stuff doesn't need to be buffed.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Mundus absolutely (and we conveniently have a redundant Mundus available...) but I also would definitely not say no to having it available from Alchemy as well. Say, 10%.

There's tons of things wrong with Alchemy currently so it would be easy to find the space in a revamp.

Especially not a literal free 10% extra crit damage mitigation. Seriously, then baseline PvP crit damage is just an extra 20% damage. At this point just disable crits in PvP so PvE players are less likely to fall into the trap of "crits = good" over raw stats and sustain.

That thread is old like how people still quote the old armor and mit thread from the 2014-2015 era.

66 crit resists = 1% mitigation which means each armor piece of impen gives 2%. Fairly certain this changed around when they reworked armor traits and gave the base crit resist value hoping this evened the odds for pve players coming in with all divines......

Back in the day the resilience cp was baked into the base stats with impen. Now adays players lost this nearly 1/3 of their impen meanwhile through other power creep of cp, medium armor, skill line stacking, brittle, force sources all becoming so easy to get we now have 2x to 3x the crit damage values.

If impen was over powered by any means, we wouldnt see 99% of pvp builds running or having a source of Rallying Cry or transmutation in group.

Most all other sources of crit resistance work off of a lack of other sources of impen, meaning they're typically overtuned on a 1-to-1 slot comparison of crit sources, given a lack.

I'm not against more sources of impen, but if the values aren't tuned down nor accompanying crit damage sources being added, it'll just make crit damage generally useless, which, let me be clear I'm not against, so long as there is comparative opportunity cost.

And a note on Rallying cry: why wouldn't you use the literal most overturned PvP set in the entire game: Hundings Rage and Impregnables 5 piece from the same set?

Well crit resist doesnt give crit healing, remember that sources like Resilience give 10% mit, but the enemy has 8% damage and 8% healing(unmitigated). So the 10% is still losing out in that comparison.

I think people also really want to return to have somewhat worth it WD sets. Too many of the old WD sets became obsolete with absurd cooldowns and conditions. Yet there are 100% uptime pen sets with better 2-4 pieces now adays. Like if you compare clever alch and stuhns now adays with UESP effective power, the stuhns setup wins every time by about 20-30% more gain. Which is crazy considering stuhns is 100% uptime vs clever's 44% uptime.

Avran_Sylt · August 5

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

You do realize that with those options, you STILL HAVE Rallying cry to stack on top of that?

Is your goal to ensure that all crit damage to you is the same as regular damage in perpetuity?

Are you going to advocate for crit damage jewelry traits? Or are you only viewing this from a one-sided perspective?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

why not restore old impen trait? I read it used to be impactful. Instead of adding more stuff they should rebalance existing things that have been long abandoned.

Basically they gutted impen and now you need to run the resilience cp......however BGs which is half the pvp content cant slot the cp.

What needs to happen is to un-power creep crit damage. Zos is likely going to have to prevent the stacking of class crit damage buffs. Like animal 10% + aedric 12% + assassin 10%.

Critical resistance (at least according to this thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p1) is 1% reduced critical damage per 68 critical reisstance

Impen provides 1.94% crit damage reduction. Comparatively, A Divines Shadow piece of armor increases Crit damage by 1.001%

Resilience provides 9.7% crit damage reduction compared to Fighting Finesse's 8% increased crit damage.

All crit resist sources in the game literally overpower all crit damage sources.

This stuff doesn't need to be buffed.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Mundus absolutely (and we conveniently have a redundant Mundus available...) but I also would definitely not say no to having it available from Alchemy as well. Say, 10%.

There's tons of things wrong with Alchemy currently so it would be easy to find the space in a revamp.

Especially not a literal free 10% extra crit damage mitigation. Seriously, then baseline PvP crit damage is just an extra 20% damage. At this point just disable crits in PvP so PvE players are less likely to fall into the trap of "crits = good" over raw stats and sustain.

That thread is old like how people still quote the old armor and mit thread from the 2014-2015 era.

66 crit resists = 1% mitigation which means each armor piece of impen gives 2%. Fairly certain this changed around when they reworked armor traits and gave the base crit resist value hoping this evened the odds for pve players coming in with all divines......

Back in the day the resilience cp was baked into the base stats with impen. Now adays players lost this nearly 1/3 of their impen meanwhile through other power creep of cp, medium armor, skill line stacking, brittle, force sources all becoming so easy to get we now have 2x to 3x the crit damage values.

If impen was over powered by any means, we wouldnt see 99% of pvp builds running or having a source of Rallying Cry or transmutation in group.

Most all other sources of crit resistance work off of a lack of other sources of impen, meaning they're typically overtuned on a 1-to-1 slot comparison of crit sources, given a lack.

I'm not against more sources of impen, but if the values aren't tuned down nor accompanying crit damage sources being added, it'll just make crit damage generally useless, which, let me be clear I'm not against, so long as there is comparative opportunity cost.

And a note on Rallying cry: why wouldn't you use the literal most overturned PvP set in the entire game: Hundings Rage and Impregnables 5 piece from the same set?

Well crit resist doesnt give crit healing, remember that sources like Resilience give 10% mit, but the enemy has 8% damage and 8% healing(unmitigated). So the 10% is still losing out in that comparison.

I think people also really want to return to have somewhat worth it WD sets. Too many of the old WD sets became obsolete with absurd cooldowns and conditions. Yet there are 100% uptime pen sets with better 2-4 pieces now adays. Like if you compare clever alch and stuhns now adays with UESP effective power, the stuhns setup wins every time by about 20-30% more gain. Which is crazy considering stuhns is 100% uptime vs clever's 44% uptime.

If you want WD I mean go ahead and suggest sets, but don't also make them give 24% crit damage resistance ontop of that (because hey guess what, that WD also scales your base heals and damage too!). That can also be applied to allies with only small penalties effectively giving small groups 4 5-set bonuses using those same "worth it" sets.

MincMincMinc · August 5

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

You do realize that with those options, you STILL HAVE Rallying cry to stack on top of that?

Is your goal to ensure that all crit damage to you is the same as regular damage in perpetuity?

Are you going to advocate for crit damage jewelry traits? Or are you only viewing this from a one-sided perspective?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

why not restore old impen trait? I read it used to be impactful. Instead of adding more stuff they should rebalance existing things that have been long abandoned.

Basically they gutted impen and now you need to run the resilience cp......however BGs which is half the pvp content cant slot the cp.

What needs to happen is to un-power creep crit damage. Zos is likely going to have to prevent the stacking of class crit damage buffs. Like animal 10% + aedric 12% + assassin 10%.

Critical resistance (at least according to this thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p1) is 1% reduced critical damage per 68 critical reisstance

Impen provides 1.94% crit damage reduction. Comparatively, A Divines Shadow piece of armor increases Crit damage by 1.001%

Resilience provides 9.7% crit damage reduction compared to Fighting Finesse's 8% increased crit damage.

All crit resist sources in the game literally overpower all crit damage sources.

This stuff doesn't need to be buffed.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Mundus absolutely (and we conveniently have a redundant Mundus available...) but I also would definitely not say no to having it available from Alchemy as well. Say, 10%.

There's tons of things wrong with Alchemy currently so it would be easy to find the space in a revamp.

Especially not a literal free 10% extra crit damage mitigation. Seriously, then baseline PvP crit damage is just an extra 20% damage. At this point just disable crits in PvP so PvE players are less likely to fall into the trap of "crits = good" over raw stats and sustain.

That thread is old like how people still quote the old armor and mit thread from the 2014-2015 era.

66 crit resists = 1% mitigation which means each armor piece of impen gives 2%. Fairly certain this changed around when they reworked armor traits and gave the base crit resist value hoping this evened the odds for pve players coming in with all divines......

Back in the day the resilience cp was baked into the base stats with impen. Now adays players lost this nearly 1/3 of their impen meanwhile through other power creep of cp, medium armor, skill line stacking, brittle, force sources all becoming so easy to get we now have 2x to 3x the crit damage values.

If impen was over powered by any means, we wouldnt see 99% of pvp builds running or having a source of Rallying Cry or transmutation in group.

Most all other sources of crit resistance work off of a lack of other sources of impen, meaning they're typically overtuned on a 1-to-1 slot comparison of crit sources, given a lack.

I'm not against more sources of impen, but if the values aren't tuned down nor accompanying crit damage sources being added, it'll just make crit damage generally useless, which, let me be clear I'm not against, so long as there is comparative opportunity cost.

And a note on Rallying cry: why wouldn't you use the literal most overturned PvP set in the entire game: Hundings Rage and Impregnables 5 piece from the same set?

Well crit resist doesnt give crit healing, remember that sources like Resilience give 10% mit, but the enemy has 8% damage and 8% healing(unmitigated). So the 10% is still losing out in that comparison.

I think people also really want to return to have somewhat worth it WD sets. Too many of the old WD sets became obsolete with absurd cooldowns and conditions. Yet there are 100% uptime pen sets with better 2-4 pieces now adays. Like if you compare clever alch and stuhns now adays with UESP effective power, the stuhns setup wins every time by about 20-30% more gain. Which is crazy considering stuhns is 100% uptime vs clever's 44% uptime.

If you want WD I mean go ahead and suggest sets, but don't also make them give 24% crit damage resistance ontop of that (because hey guess what, that WD also scales your base heals and damage too!). That can also be applied to allies with only small penalties effectively giving small groups 4 5-set bonuses using those same "worth it" sets.

Well the crit damage vs crit resist is a completely separate balance issue from the lack of wd sets. We literally had a base 3k crit resist with impen while having WD sets and the game was in a vastly healthier position back in those years.

You know crit chance and crit healing vastly outpaces wd for heals. Also consider half the heals in the game dont even scale with wd now. You are worried about giving small groups multiple set bonuses......but that is an even worse issue already where literal 5 piece bonuses are given to multiple people

Powerful assault(307wd) for example basically gives 300wd to 5 people which is basically a net 1500wd set bonus. Ok now have 5 people run sets like this and you are now at 7500wd
Lets say we have 5 people run clever alch at 675 with a downtime and mechanics to proc effectively gives only 3375wd

Which group will have stronger vigor's? The one with 7500wd 100% uptime or the one with 3375wd with under 50% uptime? And people wonder why we have the ball group issue.

Avran_Sylt · August 5

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

You do realize that with those options, you STILL HAVE Rallying cry to stack on top of that?

Is your goal to ensure that all crit damage to you is the same as regular damage in perpetuity?

Are you going to advocate for crit damage jewelry traits? Or are you only viewing this from a one-sided perspective?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

why not restore old impen trait? I read it used to be impactful. Instead of adding more stuff they should rebalance existing things that have been long abandoned.

Basically they gutted impen and now you need to run the resilience cp......however BGs which is half the pvp content cant slot the cp.

What needs to happen is to un-power creep crit damage. Zos is likely going to have to prevent the stacking of class crit damage buffs. Like animal 10% + aedric 12% + assassin 10%.

Critical resistance (at least according to this thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p1) is 1% reduced critical damage per 68 critical reisstance

Impen provides 1.94% crit damage reduction. Comparatively, A Divines Shadow piece of armor increases Crit damage by 1.001%

Resilience provides 9.7% crit damage reduction compared to Fighting Finesse's 8% increased crit damage.

All crit resist sources in the game literally overpower all crit damage sources.

This stuff doesn't need to be buffed.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Mundus absolutely (and we conveniently have a redundant Mundus available...) but I also would definitely not say no to having it available from Alchemy as well. Say, 10%.

There's tons of things wrong with Alchemy currently so it would be easy to find the space in a revamp.

Especially not a literal free 10% extra crit damage mitigation. Seriously, then baseline PvP crit damage is just an extra 20% damage. At this point just disable crits in PvP so PvE players are less likely to fall into the trap of "crits = good" over raw stats and sustain.

That thread is old like how people still quote the old armor and mit thread from the 2014-2015 era.

66 crit resists = 1% mitigation which means each armor piece of impen gives 2%. Fairly certain this changed around when they reworked armor traits and gave the base crit resist value hoping this evened the odds for pve players coming in with all divines......

Back in the day the resilience cp was baked into the base stats with impen. Now adays players lost this nearly 1/3 of their impen meanwhile through other power creep of cp, medium armor, skill line stacking, brittle, force sources all becoming so easy to get we now have 2x to 3x the crit damage values.

If impen was over powered by any means, we wouldnt see 99% of pvp builds running or having a source of Rallying Cry or transmutation in group.

Most all other sources of crit resistance work off of a lack of other sources of impen, meaning they're typically overtuned on a 1-to-1 slot comparison of crit sources, given a lack.

I'm not against more sources of impen, but if the values aren't tuned down nor accompanying crit damage sources being added, it'll just make crit damage generally useless, which, let me be clear I'm not against, so long as there is comparative opportunity cost.

And a note on Rallying cry: why wouldn't you use the literal most overturned PvP set in the entire game: Hundings Rage and Impregnables 5 piece from the same set?

Well crit resist doesnt give crit healing, remember that sources like Resilience give 10% mit, but the enemy has 8% damage and 8% healing(unmitigated). So the 10% is still losing out in that comparison.

I think people also really want to return to have somewhat worth it WD sets. Too many of the old WD sets became obsolete with absurd cooldowns and conditions. Yet there are 100% uptime pen sets with better 2-4 pieces now adays. Like if you compare clever alch and stuhns now adays with UESP effective power, the stuhns setup wins every time by about 20-30% more gain. Which is crazy considering stuhns is 100% uptime vs clever's 44% uptime.

If you want WD I mean go ahead and suggest sets, but don't also make them give 24% crit damage resistance ontop of that (because hey guess what, that WD also scales your base heals and damage too!). That can also be applied to allies with only small penalties effectively giving small groups 4 5-set bonuses using those same "worth it" sets.

Well the crit damage vs crit resist is a completely separate balance issue from the lack of wd sets. We literally had a base 3k crit resist with impen while having WD sets and the game was in a vastly healthier position back in those years.

You know crit chance and crit healing vastly outpaces wd for heals. Also consider half the heals in the game dont even scale with wd now. You are worried about giving small groups multiple set bonuses......but that is an even worse issue already where literal 5 piece bonuses are given to multiple people
Powerful assault(307wd) for example basically gives 300wd to 5 people which is basically a net 1500wd set bonus. Ok now have 5 people run sets like this and you are now at 7500wd

Lets say we have 5 people run clever alch at 675 with a downtime and mechanics to proc effectively gives only 3375wd

Which group will have stronger vigor's? The one with 7500wd 100% uptime or the one with 3375wd with under 50% uptime? And people wonder why we have the ball group issue.

So the game was healthier back when at base players only did... 5% extra damage on a crit and had little access to crit damage.

Which I suppose I can concur, it rids the game of most RNG elements to burst.

Except now everyone just tries to run the highest WD sets to get the highest burst.

But I'd say that the reason crit healing, and healing in general, outpaces damage, is it bypasses all DR and Crit Resist reductions, which would likely be annoying to reign in given the vast spectrum of stats players may or may not have.

BTW I do agree with you regarding shared set bonuses and small groups. It's an additional cancer to PvP that's been there malignant for years.

Not only does that group get the powerful bonus of coordination and cooperation, but they also get numerical superiority over any solo players through amped WD among other stats, just like you want (except perhaps not in the style you'd want: only via highly coordinated gearing)

MincMincMinc · August 5

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

You do realize that with those options, you STILL HAVE Rallying cry to stack on top of that?

Is your goal to ensure that all crit damage to you is the same as regular damage in perpetuity?

Are you going to advocate for crit damage jewelry traits? Or are you only viewing this from a one-sided perspective?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

why not restore old impen trait? I read it used to be impactful. Instead of adding more stuff they should rebalance existing things that have been long abandoned.

Basically they gutted impen and now you need to run the resilience cp......however BGs which is half the pvp content cant slot the cp.

What needs to happen is to un-power creep crit damage. Zos is likely going to have to prevent the stacking of class crit damage buffs. Like animal 10% + aedric 12% + assassin 10%.

Critical resistance (at least according to this thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p1) is 1% reduced critical damage per 68 critical reisstance

Impen provides 1.94% crit damage reduction. Comparatively, A Divines Shadow piece of armor increases Crit damage by 1.001%

Resilience provides 9.7% crit damage reduction compared to Fighting Finesse's 8% increased crit damage.

All crit resist sources in the game literally overpower all crit damage sources.

This stuff doesn't need to be buffed.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Mundus absolutely (and we conveniently have a redundant Mundus available...) but I also would definitely not say no to having it available from Alchemy as well. Say, 10%.

There's tons of things wrong with Alchemy currently so it would be easy to find the space in a revamp.

Especially not a literal free 10% extra crit damage mitigation. Seriously, then baseline PvP crit damage is just an extra 20% damage. At this point just disable crits in PvP so PvE players are less likely to fall into the trap of "crits = good" over raw stats and sustain.

That thread is old like how people still quote the old armor and mit thread from the 2014-2015 era.

66 crit resists = 1% mitigation which means each armor piece of impen gives 2%. Fairly certain this changed around when they reworked armor traits and gave the base crit resist value hoping this evened the odds for pve players coming in with all divines......

Back in the day the resilience cp was baked into the base stats with impen. Now adays players lost this nearly 1/3 of their impen meanwhile through other power creep of cp, medium armor, skill line stacking, brittle, force sources all becoming so easy to get we now have 2x to 3x the crit damage values.

If impen was over powered by any means, we wouldnt see 99% of pvp builds running or having a source of Rallying Cry or transmutation in group.

Most all other sources of crit resistance work off of a lack of other sources of impen, meaning they're typically overtuned on a 1-to-1 slot comparison of crit sources, given a lack.

I'm not against more sources of impen, but if the values aren't tuned down nor accompanying crit damage sources being added, it'll just make crit damage generally useless, which, let me be clear I'm not against, so long as there is comparative opportunity cost.

And a note on Rallying cry: why wouldn't you use the literal most overturned PvP set in the entire game: Hundings Rage and Impregnables 5 piece from the same set?

Well crit resist doesnt give crit healing, remember that sources like Resilience give 10% mit, but the enemy has 8% damage and 8% healing(unmitigated). So the 10% is still losing out in that comparison.

I think people also really want to return to have somewhat worth it WD sets. Too many of the old WD sets became obsolete with absurd cooldowns and conditions. Yet there are 100% uptime pen sets with better 2-4 pieces now adays. Like if you compare clever alch and stuhns now adays with UESP effective power, the stuhns setup wins every time by about 20-30% more gain. Which is crazy considering stuhns is 100% uptime vs clever's 44% uptime.

If you want WD I mean go ahead and suggest sets, but don't also make them give 24% crit damage resistance ontop of that (because hey guess what, that WD also scales your base heals and damage too!). That can also be applied to allies with only small penalties effectively giving small groups 4 5-set bonuses using those same "worth it" sets.

Well the crit damage vs crit resist is a completely separate balance issue from the lack of wd sets. We literally had a base 3k crit resist with impen while having WD sets and the game was in a vastly healthier position back in those years.

You know crit chance and crit healing vastly outpaces wd for heals. Also consider half the heals in the game dont even scale with wd now. You are worried about giving small groups multiple set bonuses......but that is an even worse issue already where literal 5 piece bonuses are given to multiple people
Powerful assault(307wd) for example basically gives 300wd to 5 people which is basically a net 1500wd set bonus. Ok now have 5 people run sets like this and you are now at 7500wd

Lets say we have 5 people run clever alch at 675 with a downtime and mechanics to proc effectively gives only 3375wd

Which group will have stronger vigor's? The one with 7500wd 100% uptime or the one with 3375wd with under 50% uptime? And people wonder why we have the ball group issue.

So the game was healthier back when at base players only did... 5% extra damage on a crit and had little access to crit damage.

Which I suppose I can concur, it rids the game of most RNG elements to burst.

Except now everyone just tries to run the highest WD sets to get the highest burst.

But I'd say that the reason crit healing, and healing in general, outpaces damage, is it bypasses all DR and Crit Resist reductions, which would likely be annoying to reign in given the vast spectrum of stats players may or may not have.

BTW I do agree with you regarding shared set bonuses and small groups. It's an additional cancer to PvP that's been there malignant for years.

Not only does that group get the powerful bonus of coordination and cooperation, but they also get numerical superiority over any solo players through amped WD among other stats, just like you want (except perhaps not in the style you'd want: only via highly coordinated gearing)

There are ways to do the wd sets like old fury where every 0.5s if you were hit by a crit you gained wd up to like 750. This was great solo, but for group play even duos it simply didnt work in practice. But again with previous example a group set that gives 1500 effectively wins by default.

Back then power creep didnt have the average pvp build hitting caps on Crit damage, Crit chance, Pen, Armor, speed all on the same build. The tension between stats used to mean a lot more.

BXR_Lonestar · August 6

IMO, with the crit damage now being so high, a few things need to happen:

1. Crit resist cap needs to be raised from 3000 to 5000 like it used to be. and/or

2. We need more sources of minor enervation (reduces critical damage by 10%) and minor uncertainty (reduces critical chance by 10%). and/or

3. We need a source of major enervation and major uncertainty (to my knowledge, these debuffs currently do not exist).

Doing this would bring crit damage back into balance by increasing the amount of critical damage we can negate, so your critical resistance is not so easily overwhelmed, and then you can stack debuffs that have the effect of further reducing critical chance and critical damage.

If they do NOT do this, then they're going to need to take a look at reducing critical damage through other means, as damage is so ridiculously high right now that certain builds can easily destroy you, even if you are fully buffed, without giving you a chance to react, and there is currently no counter for it.

Avran_Sylt · August 6

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

IMO, with the crit damage now being so high, a few things need to happen:

1. Crit resist cap needs to be raised from 3000 to 5000 like it used to be. and/or

2. We need more sources of minor enervation (reduces critical damage by 10%) and minor uncertainty (reduces critical chance by 10%). and/or

3. We need a source of major enervation and major uncertainty (to my knowledge, these debuffs currently do not exist).

Doing this would bring crit damage back into balance by increasing the amount of critical damage we can negate, so your critical resistance is not so easily overwhelmed, and then you can stack debuffs that have the effect of further reducing critical chance and critical damage.

If they do NOT do this, then they're going to need to take a look at reducing critical damage through other means, as damage is so ridiculously high right now that certain builds can easily destroy you, even if you are fully buffed, without giving you a chance to react, and there is currently no counter for it.

There's a crit resistance cap? Thought it was just capped at causing crit to hit for 0% extra damage to prevent crits from dealing less damage.

YandereGirlfriend · August 6

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

IMO, with the crit damage now being so high, a few things need to happen:

1. Crit resist cap needs to be raised from 3000 to 5000 like it used to be. and/or

2. We need more sources of minor enervation (reduces critical damage by 10%) and minor uncertainty (reduces critical chance by 10%). and/or

3. We need a source of major enervation and major uncertainty (to my knowledge, these debuffs currently do not exist).

Doing this would bring crit damage back into balance by increasing the amount of critical damage we can negate, so your critical resistance is not so easily overwhelmed, and then you can stack debuffs that have the effect of further reducing critical chance and critical damage.

If they do NOT do this, then they're going to need to take a look at reducing critical damage through other means, as damage is so ridiculously high right now that certain builds can easily destroy you, even if you are fully buffed, without giving you a chance to react, and there is currently no counter for it.

Definitely.

Every buff and debuff needs its mirror and since Major Force exists it demands that Major Enervation also exist.

You do that and un-nerf Impen, add a Mundus, perhaps add in an Alchemy trait, and suddenly Crit goes back to being one path to damage among many rather than the one path to rule them all.

I do think that Minor Enervation is slept-on by most players, though. It's also the most universally accessibly Scribing debuff. So choosing not to use it and then complaining about Crit Dam is a bad look.

MincMincMinc · August 6

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

IMO, with the crit damage now being so high, a few things need to happen:

1. Crit resist cap needs to be raised from 3000 to 5000 like it used to be. and/or

2. We need more sources of minor enervation (reduces critical damage by 10%) and minor uncertainty (reduces critical chance by 10%). and/or

3. We need a source of major enervation and major uncertainty (to my knowledge, these debuffs currently do not exist).

Doing this would bring crit damage back into balance by increasing the amount of critical damage we can negate, so your critical resistance is not so easily overwhelmed, and then you can stack debuffs that have the effect of further reducing critical chance and critical damage.

If they do NOT do this, then they're going to need to take a look at reducing critical damage through other means, as damage is so ridiculously high right now that certain builds can easily destroy you, even if you are fully buffed, without giving you a chance to react, and there is currently no counter for it.

There's a crit resistance cap? Thought it was just capped at causing crit to hit for 0% extra damage to prevent crits from dealing less damage.

no there is no cap you can have 1m crit resist if you find a way. You are correct that the EFFECTIVE cap is based on the enemy's crit damage.

Earlier years people would say the cap was 3400 because crit resist used to be 68 per 1% and enemies always had a 50% bonus guaranteed. Some enemies could reach up to 75 or more through the old cp, but generally not much more than that. (back then people didnt have access to crit chance as much in pvp so you never really had any reason to get crit damage buffs over pen or wd sources)

This is why crit damage is so big in pvp now, instead of sitting at 3k against 50-75% with a general build, we are only at 2.2k against 90-150%(125%cap) on pvp builds.

MincMincMinc · August 6

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

IMO, with the crit damage now being so high, a few things need to happen:

1. Crit resist cap needs to be raised from 3000 to 5000 like it used to be. and/or

2. We need more sources of minor enervation (reduces critical damage by 10%) and minor uncertainty (reduces critical chance by 10%). and/or

3. We need a source of major enervation and major uncertainty (to my knowledge, these debuffs currently do not exist).

Doing this would bring crit damage back into balance by increasing the amount of critical damage we can negate, so your critical resistance is not so easily overwhelmed, and then you can stack debuffs that have the effect of further reducing critical chance and critical damage.

If they do NOT do this, then they're going to need to take a look at reducing critical damage through other means, as damage is so ridiculously high right now that certain builds can easily destroy you, even if you are fully buffed, without giving you a chance to react, and there is currently no counter for it.

Definitely.

Every buff and debuff needs its mirror and since Major Force exists it demands that Major Enervation also exist.

You do that and un-nerf Impen, add a Mundus, perhaps add in an Alchemy trait, and suddenly Crit goes back to being one path to damage among many rather than the one path to rule them all.

I do think that Minor Enervation is slept-on by most players, though. It's also the most universally accessibly Scribing debuff. So choosing not to use it and then complaining about Crit Dam is a bad look.

You forgot to add to bring back the old wd sets and your post would have been perfect

Thumbless_Bot · August 6

Zos introduces broken stuff. The answer is not to change the entire game. The answer is to fix the p2w garbage they introduced. They will, once enough people have paid the ransom, i mean bought the new dlc. Give it a year from release.

YandereGirlfriend · August 6

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Zos introduces broken stuff. The answer is not to change the entire game. The answer is to fix the p2w garbage they introduced. They will, once enough people have paid the ransom, i mean bought the new dlc. Give it a year from release.

They aren't going to nerf the Major Force otherwise there is literally zero purpose to ever use the Mythic.

Most that will happen is like Minor Vuln upgraded to Major, which would be balanced enough, IMO.

Game has needed more sources of Crit Res for a while, though; it didn't suddenly begin after Monomyth became a thing.

Major_Toughness · August 7

I should have slotted Resilience too

MincMincMinc · August 7

Old:

7 impen got you to 3045crit resists. Divide that by 66 and you had 46.1% crit damage mitigation
Crit damage at the time was 50% + major/minor(very rare) + CP(rare) + armor bonus? Realistically the vast majority of players never built into crit damage because pen and %damage was worth more at the achievable crit chance values.

Live:

7 impen gets you to 2244 or 34% crit damage mitigation
Crit damage now adays is upwards around 150%.........base50% + 20%major + 10%minor + 11%shadow+ 10%assassin +10%animal +10%brittle +8%cp +8%medium +12%Gaxe +12%Kitty

Old had an average post mit bonus of around 3.9 to maybe 15% against certain niche setups
Live has an average post mit bonus of around 116% damage sometimes even up to the 125% limit.

Thumbless_Bot · August 7

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Zos introduces broken stuff. The answer is not to change the entire game. The answer is to fix the p2w garbage they introduced. They will, once enough people have paid the ransom, i mean bought the new dlc. Give it a year from release.

They aren't going to nerf the Major Force otherwise there is literally zero purpose to ever use the Mythic.

Most that will happen is like Minor Vuln upgraded to Major, which would be balanced enough, IMO.

Game has needed more sources of Crit Res for a while, though; it didn't suddenly begin after Monomyth became a thing.

They'll make it minor or something. It's how they roll. Most mythics are useless.

Thumbless_Bot · August 7

Major_Toughness wrote: »

I should have slotted Resilience too

Crit hits harder in no cp because of this cp. I really think mundus options would be ideal.

MincMincMinc · August 7

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

I should have slotted Resilience too

Crit hits harder in no cp because of this cp. I really think mundus options would be ideal.

Or just bring impen back up to match the current insane value of crit damage. They tried to give a base value, but having actual choices is better game design wise since players themselves can correct for metas instead of us waiting years for zos to give us a different meta.

MincMincMinc · August 7

Capping crit resist on the attacker end to 125 or 100% output would also be a good start. It at least prevents runaway scenarios like live is in now where power creep has allowed the majority of builds to abuse the abundance of %crit damage compared to the lack of possible crit resist.

BXR_Lonestar · August 8

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

IMO, with the crit damage now being so high, a few things need to happen:

1. Crit resist cap needs to be raised from 3000 to 5000 like it used to be. and/or

2. We need more sources of minor enervation (reduces critical damage by 10%) and minor uncertainty (reduces critical chance by 10%). and/or

3. We need a source of major enervation and major uncertainty (to my knowledge, these debuffs currently do not exist).

Doing this would bring crit damage back into balance by increasing the amount of critical damage we can negate, so your critical resistance is not so easily overwhelmed, and then you can stack debuffs that have the effect of further reducing critical chance and critical damage.

If they do NOT do this, then they're going to need to take a look at reducing critical damage through other means, as damage is so ridiculously high right now that certain builds can easily destroy you, even if you are fully buffed, without giving you a chance to react, and there is currently no counter for it.

There's a crit resistance cap? Thought it was just capped at causing crit to hit for 0% extra damage to prevent crits from dealing less damage.

Yes. Just like there is a damage resistance cap, there is a crit resist cap. It tops out at around 3000 Inpen, and my understanding is that there is ZERO benefit to having more than that amount of inpen. If they raised this back to 5000 where it used to be, I think it would be helpful to counter some of the crit damage numbers we are currently seeing.

BXR_Lonestar · August 8

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

IMO, with the crit damage now being so high, a few things need to happen:

1. Crit resist cap needs to be raised from 3000 to 5000 like it used to be. and/or

2. We need more sources of minor enervation (reduces critical damage by 10%) and minor uncertainty (reduces critical chance by 10%). and/or

3. We need a source of major enervation and major uncertainty (to my knowledge, these debuffs currently do not exist).

Doing this would bring crit damage back into balance by increasing the amount of critical damage we can negate, so your critical resistance is not so easily overwhelmed, and then you can stack debuffs that have the effect of further reducing critical chance and critical damage.

If they do NOT do this, then they're going to need to take a look at reducing critical damage through other means, as damage is so ridiculously high right now that certain builds can easily destroy you, even if you are fully buffed, without giving you a chance to react, and there is currently no counter for it.

Definitely.

Every buff and debuff needs its mirror and since Major Force exists it demands that Major Enervation also exist.

You do that and un-nerf Impen, add a Mundus, perhaps add in an Alchemy trait, and suddenly Crit goes back to being one path to damage among many rather than the one path to rule them all.

I do think that Minor Enervation is slept-on by most players, though. It's also the most universally accessibly Scribing debuff. So choosing not to use it and then complaining about Crit Dam is a bad look.

There are so few sources of minor enervation though that it is difficult to incorporate into group play, and when I have limited space on my bars as is, it is just difficult to pick and choose what bonus I think I (or in most cases, the group) can live without. Armor choices that provide this buff aren't very good either. We need something that is similar to Robes of Transmutation that will cause major/minor eneveration in an area effected by an ability for X number of seconds.

Overall, Major and minor enervation and major and minor uncertainty both need more sources to help counter the current crit damage we're seeing.