More on the Microsoft lay offs, it's grim.

Freelancer_ESO · July 24

Chrisilis wrote: »

Why pay 100 people for ten years to develop a new IP when AI can do it in a year? Or six months? For a fraction of a fraction of the cost? The future of gaming is AI and what we're seeing here is the beginning of that. Heck, the future is AI period. Look at GTA6, ten years in development, 1-2 billion spent, and now that it might be close to release new technology has probably rendered parts of it obsolete before it even hits the market.

What remains to be seen in this context is whether or not the adoption of smart generative technology will be a net positive for us as consumers of ESO content or the death knell of a ten year old game with wonky unreliable servers. It could mean the beginning of a new era of content or it could mean bare bones maintenance mode as we limp towards the finish line. Only time will tell.

Because, you can use the fact that people are making it to better sell your product and keep a higher price point.

Luxury Goods can bring in more $ than generics.

If you are just making AI content in the long run you are going to be competing with boatloads of other groups who may follow less rules on what they can produce and who may not see any issue with flooding the zone which can leave you in a position where you cannot gain enough profits to be worth the effort.

Varana · July 24

Desiato wrote: »

This is normal stuff in the game biz and the entertainment industry. I don't want to sound insensitive because of course I feel awful for anyone who loses their job. But what Microsoft is doing isn't inherently evil. Like Zenimax Media, they answer to their stakeholders. This is all par for the course in the entertainment industry.

I will never cease to be baffled (and, to some extent, disheartened) by people defending this horrid workplace and corporate culture.
Regardless of whether the layoffs made economic sense - while I doubt it, there is the theoretical possibility that they did - the style of firing people, how this is done, is just terrible.
And I really hope more people in that industry start unionising.

DenverRalphy · July 24

nathamarath wrote: »

"LadyGP wrote: »

... I'm all for games being pushed out every 2-3 years vs the 5-7 timeframe we are on now.

Why do you see the advantage of AI in an increase of game-production?

Because the primary use of AI will be to do all the scut work. There's an unbelievable amoumt of low level grunt work that takes place in large scale software development. AI cuts this down considerably. And by considerably, I mean really really considerably.

Varana wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

This is normal stuff in the game biz and the entertainment industry. I don't want to sound insensitive because of course I feel awful for anyone who loses their job. But what Microsoft is doing isn't inherently evil. Like Zenimax Media, they answer to their stakeholders. This is all par for the course in the entertainment industry.

I will never cease to be baffled (and, to some extent, disheartened) by people defending this horrid workplace and corporate culture.
Regardless of whether the layoffs made economic sense - while I doubt it, there is the theoretical possibility that they did - the style of firing people, how this is done, is just terrible.
And I really hope more people in that industry start unionising.

That's a bit of a quandary though. Suppose you have to lay off 9000 employees. If you try the personal touch method, you won't make it past the first 50 before everyone starts to panic, and you still have 8950 to go, with pitch forks coming out.

Lord_Graas · July 24

For some reason I remembered game companies New World Computing and 3DO. 3DO acquires New World Computing. Everything was fine in the first years, but then... Do you remember what happened next with New World Computing?

old_scopie1945 · July 24

This talk about AI

Varana wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

This is normal stuff in the game biz and the entertainment industry. I don't want to sound insensitive because of course I feel awful for anyone who loses their job. But what Microsoft is doing isn't inherently evil. Like Zenimax Media, they answer to their stakeholders. This is all par for the course in the entertainment industry.

I will never cease to be baffled (and, to some extent, disheartened) by people defending this horrid workplace and corporate culture.
Regardless of whether the layoffs made economic sense - while I doubt it, there is the theoretical possibility that they did - the style of firing people, how this is done, is just terrible.
And I really hope more people in that industry start unionising.

As an ex UK Trade Union activist I agree whole heartedly.

old_scopie1945 · July 24

DenverRalphy wrote:-
That's a bit of a quandary though. Suppose you have to lay off 9000 employees. If you try the personal touch method, you won't make it past the first 50 before everyone starts to panic, and you still have 8950 to go, with pitch forks coming out.

My reply:-
At the end of the day there is only so much that a Trade Union can do in such a scenario. What they can do at the very least, they can ensure that the laws on severance are adhered to. Such as severance pay, severance packages and terms of notice for example. That being said, these are very different in the US compared to the UK and the EU.

As for industrial action, unless the union is very certain of a legal result, the union will be doing a disservice to their members. Otherwise such a move would involve upheaval and loss of finance at a time their members can ill afford it. In my country, laws on union activity have been tightened up significantly since the 1980s and I suspect this is not the only place.

Ph1p · July 24

Varana wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

This is normal stuff in the game biz and the entertainment industry. I don't want to sound insensitive because of course I feel awful for anyone who loses their job. But what Microsoft is doing isn't inherently evil. Like Zenimax Media, they answer to their stakeholders. This is all par for the course in the entertainment industry.

I will never cease to be baffled (and, to some extent, disheartened) by people defending this horrid workplace and corporate culture.
Regardless of whether the layoffs made economic sense - while I doubt it, there is the theoretical possibility that they did - the style of firing people, how this is done, is just terrible.
And I really hope more people in that industry start unionising.

The main reason these layoffs are done in such a cold and impersonal manner is security concerns. The vast majority of affected workers will obviously take these news with as much composure and dignity as can be mustered. But if thousands are being let go, there might just be that handful who lash out and can do a massive amount of damage if given a few hours of continued IT or site access.

It's sad to see it going this way, and some companies manage it better by locking affected people out of secure systems and external mails, while still allowing them to at least connect with their co-workers and friends before leaving. But as terrible as it looks from the outside, there is some logic and rationale behind this.

Northwold · July 24

Just a comment on various people saying it wouldn't make sense to cancel Blackbird if they thought it would be successful.

This is not actually how sound businesses necessarily make decisions, especially large publicly traded groups. The question isn't just will it be successful, but will it be more successful than X, Y and Z and therefore a good use of our capital, employee and management time (which is limited), does it cannibalise revenue or resources from our other products, does it fit with our broader strategy for the group and if not why are we doing it, etc, etc.

One very vivid example of this came up in the original discussions in MS of the Microsoft Courier (not the one that eventually came out, the original concept, which developed a bit of a cult status as the most amazing product never made). As the story goes, Bill Gates took one look at it and asked how it fitted with Windows, Office, etc, and that was the end of the project.

I'm not saying this to excuse the layoffs and the way they have been conducted sounds absolutely appalling and I have huge sympathy for everyone at ZOS, most especially because most of them will not have signed up for a culture like this.

I'm saying this only to shed some light on why "but this product would have made money" is quite often irrelevant to why layoffs happen, products get cancelled, and so on. This can be one of the disadvantages of operating in a large, publicly trade corporate group that makes decisions at a very macro level. And, yes, when handled as badly as this the human cost can be horrific and grim.

Malyore · July 24

The patch notes for the nerf on ZOS just keep getting worse huh?

I'm not sure if this means I should keep playing ESO in case it soon gets lost forever (either from worker strikes or corporate layoffs), or if it means I should finally move on since the game direction doesn't seem like it'll go the way I'd hope it to.

With all of those layoffs, I wonder just how much more profit the people who did this will be gaining from ESOs income– our money.

LadyGP · July 24

edit - quotes got so jacked up. Screw it lol

Imperial_Archmage · July 25

I feel for the folks impacted by these layoffs, I really do, but at the same time I can’t help but ask myself what is that they were doing before they were fired? The so called “Season of the Worm” has been nothing but rehashed old content that adds nothing new to the game. Solstice is literally a slightly reshuffled Alinor and the Worm Cult is, well, the same old Worm Cult we’ve been fighting since the game launched. The game hasn’t had any real new content since the Gold Road and even that had quite a bit of reused assets thanks to the retcon that conveniently turned Fargrave into the realm of the “forgotten” daedric prince.

It seems to me that all of these potential worst case scenarios that this video is warning about coming down the road have already occurred. I don’t see why everyone is so surprised that people were fired when they literally haven’t been doing anything for at least a few years now. The real question should be why the game has been left to rot on the vine since the Gold Road. And if it turns out to be Microsoft cutting funding then they need to be held to account, right alongside those at ZOS who decided to sell up to Microsoft because surely the consequences of selling to a monopoly should have been apparent.

Desiato · July 25

Imperial_Archmage wrote: »

I feel for the folks impacted by these layoffs, I really do, but at the same time I can’t help but ask myself what is that they were doing before they were fired? The so called “Season of the Worm” has been nothing but rehashed old content that adds nothing new to the game.

They made the decision not to develop a conventional chapter last year. The staff who would normally work on new assets for chapters were probably either assigned to other Bethesda projects or Blackbird.

Many of the affected employees actually came from another Zenimax studio that was shut down last year, Arkane.

Varana wrote: »

I will never cease to be baffled (and, to some extent, disheartened) by people defending this horrid workplace and corporate culture.
Regardless of whether the layoffs made economic sense - while I doubt it, there is the theoretical possibility that they did - the style of firing people, how this is done, is just terrible.
And I really hope more people in that industry start unionising.

I'm not president of the world, and Microsoft doesn't make the rules they operate in either. Right or wrong, this is how our society functions. I would say it's largely good as until recently, the world had seen unprecedented global prosperity. But nothing is perfect and some would say the wheels are coming off this wagon for complex reasons that are beyond the scope of the eso forums.

If Microsoft didn't function in a fiscally responsible way, they would actually be in violation of their fiduciary duty to their shareholders. You might imagine them to all be residents of an ivory tower, but many are also individuals a who are either part of mutual funds or shareholders themselves who count on dividends to fund their retirement.

The bottom line is they are making decisions that they think are best for their stakeholders. Every responsible company operates like this. I doubt anyone making these decisions likes them.

It should be noted that ZOS employees are part of a union and though they can no longer access work systems, the last we heard the affected employees are still being paid with benefits.

Regardless, this is how our society functions and you can't blame a company for operating within its rules. If they didn't, they themselves would eventually be the target of an acquisition by another corporation that does.

TheMajority · July 25

Desiato wrote: »

Imperial_Archmage wrote: »

I feel for the folks impacted by these layoffs, I really do, but at the same time I can’t help but ask myself what is that they were doing before they were fired? The so called “Season of the Worm” has been nothing but rehashed old content that adds nothing new to the game.

They made the decision not to develop a conventional chapter last year. The staff who would normally work on new assets for chapters were probably either assigned to other Bethesda projects or Blackbird.

Many of the affected employees actually came from another Zenimax studio that was shut down last year, Arkane.

Varana wrote: »

I will never cease to be baffled (and, to some extent, disheartened) by people defending this horrid workplace and corporate culture.
Regardless of whether the layoffs made economic sense - while I doubt it, there is the theoretical possibility that they did - the style of firing people, how this is done, is just terrible.
And I really hope more people in that industry start unionising.

I'm not president of the world, and Microsoft doesn't make the rules they operate in either. Right or wrong, this is how our society functions. I would say it's largely good as until recently, the world had seen unprecedented global prosperity. But nothing is perfect and some would say the wheels are coming off this wagon for complex reasons that are beyond the scope of the eso forums.

If Microsoft didn't function in a fiscally responsible way, they would actually be in violation of their fiduciary duty to their shareholders. You might imagine them to all be residents of an ivory tower, but many are also individuals a who are either part of mutual funds or shareholders themselves who count on dividends to fund their retirement.

The bottom line is they are making decisions that they think are best for their stakeholders. Every responsible company operates like this. I doubt anyone making these decisions likes them.

It should be noted that ZOS employees are part of a union and though they can no longer access work systems, the last we heard the affected employees are still being paid with benefits.

Regardless, this is how our society functions and you can't blame a company for operating within its rules. If they didn't, they themselves would eventually be the target of an acquisition by another corporation that does.

"this is how our society functions" Yeah, and we don't have to take it we can fight back and speak against it, because it's wrong and people have suffered because of it. Bending over and saying "this is just how it is" is how things get worse. And no, I don't think you understand the global economy if you think we've seen "unprecedented prosperity". Microsoft is in the wrong. The shareholders are in the wrong.

Desiato · July 25

TheMajority wrote: »

"this is how our society functions" Yeah, and we don't have to take it we can fight back and speak against it, because it's wrong and people have suffered because of it. Bending over and saying "this is just how it is" is how things get worse. And no, I don't think you understand the global economy if you think we've seen "unprecedented prosperity". Microsoft is in the wrong. The shareholders are in the wrong.

The resistance won't be organized here.

Malyore · July 25

Desiato wrote: »

TheMajority wrote: »

"this is how our society functions" Yeah, and we don't have to take it we can fight back and speak against it, because it's wrong and people have suffered because of it. Bending over and saying "this is just how it is" is how things get worse. And no, I don't think you understand the global economy if you think we've seen "unprecedented prosperity". Microsoft is in the wrong. The shareholders are in the wrong.

The resistance won't be organized here.

Any form of speaking out, to any injustice, is arguably better than being silent and leaving it to "the resistance" as you put it. We don't have to be part of some ultimate solution in order to take a short moment to speak out.

I feel what you're saying, I think I really do. But why try to talk down other people who are just putting their feedback out that something done seems wrong?
If you're trying to discourage people out of some sense of pragmatism, then you are actually part of the problem.
Go live a defeated life which is operated by a sense of only others' order, and let us say "wow, this is messed up" to messed up situations.

Desiato · July 25

Malyore wrote: »

Any form of speaking out, to any injustice, is arguably better than being silent and leaving it to "the resistance" as you put it. We don't have to be part of some ultimate solution in order to take a short moment to speak out.

I feel what you're saying, I think I really do. But why try to talk down other people who are just putting their feedback out that something done seems wrong?
If you're trying to discourage people out of some sense of pragmatism, then you are actually part of the problem.
Go live a defeated life which is operated by a sense of only others' order, and let us say "wow, this is messed up" to messed up situations.

I am doing no such thing. I am presenting my view of what I think the reality of the situation is. I am the one being talked down to. Did you not read someone say I am bending over? Or another saying I am defending people being treated horribly?

This is all outside of the scope of these forums beyond what I have already expressed. It is not possible to have a serious discussion about these topics without it getting shut down by the admins and possibly having one's account actioned.

What I've said does not provide any indication about what my personal views are. I am simply stating what I believe to be facts. I do not believe there was any injustice within the context of how our society operates. A corporation should be expected to act like a corporation. If people want to change how the system works, this is not the place to make that happen.

spartaxoxo · July 25

It is an opinion whether or not the way this was handled was unjust and unfair. And certainly one that I do not share. If the best we can say about someone's conduct is that was not literally illegal, then I'm not inclined to call that good behavior.

Desiato · July 25

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It is an opinion whether or not the way this was handled was unjust and unfair. And certainly one that I do not share. If the best we can say about someone's conduct is that was not literally illegal, then I'm not inclined to call that good behavior.

They are acting in what they think is in the best interest of their company. If they can do something more efficiently or no longer need staff, then they need to make the right choice for their shareholders. It's really that simple.

It would be reckless to operate a business otherwise, and they could actually be legally liable if they did so.

If you have a problem with capitalism, that's really a discussion outside the scope of the forums.

moderatelyfatman · July 25

Desiato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It is an opinion whether or not the way this was handled was unjust and unfair. And certainly one that I do not share. If the best we can say about someone's conduct is that was not literally illegal, then I'm not inclined to call that good behavior.

They are acting in what they think is in the best interest of their company. If they can do something more efficiently or no longer need staff, then they need to make the right choice for their shareholders. It's really that simple.

It would be reckless to operate a business otherwise, and they could actually be legally liable if they did so.

If you have a problem with capitalism, that's really a discussion outside the scope of the forums.

Is it really outside the scope of the forums when it directly impacts everyone here?

Personally, I'm not against capitalism but I really don't like the endgame captialism we seem to be experiencing these days.

katanagirl1 · July 25

Human beings sacrificed on the altar of shareholder value. How can you not feel for them?

Usually big companies are not willing to take big risks, though they certainly have the capital to do so compared to smaller companies. That is what is surprising here. The new IP sounds like it was relatively low risk. AI is a huge risk and a huge amount of money to invest in, though it is the trendy thing to do nowadays. Humans are creative though, and can come up with remarkably novel ideas, but AI is not very creative, it just iterates on what it has been fed. Remember neural networks and how it was going to be the solution for everything? You don’t hear much about that anymore. What if AI cannot deliver?

It hits home when they talk about losing experience and knowledge in their workplace in the video. I have been there, when programs were shut down and people were laid off. In my case the money ran out and there was no other option. This is even more sad. It just doesn’t make sense.

spartaxoxo · July 25

Desiato wrote: »

It would be reckless to operate a business otherwise, and they could actually be legally liable if they did so.

Where did I say anything about capitalism? I'm talking about basic things like employers should have to give notifications to people that layoffs are coming and that they have been laid off rather than people just suddenly finding themselves locked out and completely confused.

amiiegee · July 25

Ngl it cant really get much worse then it is. Population already shrinking due the lack of content, new ideas, cross play and game being (it feels) on maintenance mode.

We will see population shrinking over 2 years and then shutdown

BretonMage · July 25

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Human beings sacrificed on the altar of shareholder value. How can you not feel for them?

Well said.

Usually big companies are not willing to take big risks, though they certainly have the capital to do so compared to smaller companies. That is what is surprising here. The new IP sounds like it was relatively low risk. AI is a huge risk and a huge amount of money to invest in, though it is the trendy thing to do nowadays. Humans are creative though, and can come up with remarkably novel ideas, but AI is not very creative, it just iterates on what it has been fed. Remember neural networks and how it was going to be the solution for everything? You don’t hear much about that anymore. What if AI cannot deliver?

I see this as the ultimate FOMO. Not only the potential for an enormous benefit, but the fact that everyone else is doing it means that they probably see not investing in AI as the bigger risk. Not defending it though; I quite honestly detest AI for many reasons, so I think it's a gut-wrenching tragedy what is happening right now.

old_scopie1945 · July 25

amiiegee wrote: »

Ngl it cant really get much worse then it is. Population already shrinking due the lack of content, new ideas, cross play and game being (it feels) on maintenance mode.

We will see population shrinking over 2 years and then shutdown

I sincerely hope not, but who knows what the future holds. I may be looking through rose coloured glasses, but things look more harsher now from when I was young.

Rungar · July 25

i personally think the recent unionization at zenimax was a large factor in the major layoffs though i imagine not the only reason. Im sorry but it just makes sense. What they tell you and what they are actively thinking is usually not the same thing. Big corporations would rather shut down projects than have to deal with difficult unions if they can get away with it...but lets just blame AI and management restructuring..lol.

unless we hear of some major investment strategy my opinion is that this game is dead in the water now. Bad morale, weakened support, loss of knowledge. It wont be easy to turn that around im afraid.. especially doing the same things zos has always done. It could be done if they get innovative but i dont see that happening.

nathamarath · July 25

Ph1p wrote: »

The main reason these layoffs are done in such a cold and impersonal manner is security concerns. The vast majority of affected workers will obviously take these news with as much composure and dignity as can be mustered. But if thousands are being let go, there might just be that handful who lash out and can do a massive amount of damage if given a few hours of continued IT or site access.

I think employees doing damage to a company they are valued by are rather unlikely because there would not be massive instant layoffs for no evident reason.

Elsonso · July 25

Desiato wrote: »

Imperial_Archmage wrote: »

I feel for the folks impacted by these layoffs, I really do, but at the same time I can’t help but ask myself what is that they were doing before they were fired? The so called “Season of the Worm” has been nothing but rehashed old content that adds nothing new to the game.

They made the decision not to develop a conventional chapter last year. The staff who would normally work on new assets for chapters were probably either assigned to other Bethesda projects or Blackbird.

I see that as the real sad part of this plan. I am sure that devs moved from ESO to "Blackbird" simply because the new game needed more skilled developers than ESO. ESO needs skilled developers, but it is an established game, so not as many. They were not forever lost to ESO, since they were just across the room (so to speak), but they were working on the other game. I would not be surprised to learn that this had been going on for years. Then, Microsoft comes along and trims out all of those skilled developers and lays them off.

Now they are forever lost.

Muizer · July 25

If you look at some of the latest features, released and announced: Housing tours, Subclassing, Vengeance, Overland difficulty ......What do they have in common? They are adaptations of existing content that can be done by a fraction of the workforce it would take to develop something truly novel. A fraction not just in numbers of people, but in the number of developer disciplines involved. These are all essentially 90% coding exercises, with the other 10% consisting of reusing existing artwork, design, ui etc.

So yes, there are some things we have been asking for and that arguably are needed badly, but it is no coincidence they are accompanied by layoffs. It must be painful for employees to be confronted with the corporate spin that pretends it is all for the good of the game, not driven by cost cutting, which, of course, it is. That applies to those who lose their jobs as well as those who remain and have to put a brave face on it, carrying on the pretense and trying to remain optimistic. I know. I've been on both ends of that equation. I think many have. It's a sad thing all round. I wish them well.

Desiato · July 25

Elsonso wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

Imperial_Archmage wrote: »

I feel for the folks impacted by these layoffs, I really do, but at the same time I can’t help but ask myself what is that they were doing before they were fired? The so called “Season of the Worm” has been nothing but rehashed old content that adds nothing new to the game.

They made the decision not to develop a conventional chapter last year. The staff who would normally work on new assets for chapters were probably either assigned to other Bethesda projects or Blackbird.

I see that as the real sad part of this plan. I am sure that devs moved from ESO to "Blackbird" simply because the new game needed more skilled developers than ESO. ESO needs skilled developers, but it is an established game, so not as many. They were not forever lost to ESO, since they were just across the room (so to speak), but they were working on the other game. I would not be surprised to learn that this had been going on for years. Then, Microsoft comes along and trims out all of those skilled developers and lays them off.

That is doubtful. Many were Arkane staff who were assigned to help with Gold Road after Arkane was shut down. The hard push for Blackbird was probably an attempt to avoid layoffs after it was decided ESO would enter a new phase.

Blackbird was an internal ZOS pet project that only started to make progress recently, after ESO was set on its new path. This has been leaked previously and we can deduce the decision to end chapters had to happen last year because the content pass lacks new art assets. It is probably why the anniversary tour was cut short.

They would have made the decision to end chapters independent of outside considerations.

I have stated my opinion for months. ESO has been the vehicle for single player TES main story content for years and the end of chapters signifies the end of this. I see their hints of future content to mean smaller and more episodic content like the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood DLCs, probably built largely with existing art assets. This year the Morrowind Remaster was the main TES Story content. Maybe they are choosing to take a year or two to build anticipation for the next big TES game. I'm not suggesting when it will happen, but the arrival of TES6 was always going to mean a new role for ESO.

Sure as fans, we can be disappointed, but it's not reasonable to demonize a company for following basic logic. If a company doesn't need staff anymore, then they need to downsize. If they thought it was in their best interest to continue chapters and/or Blackbird, they would have. They're not acting irrationally. If Microsoft operated all of their divisions with a bleeding heart, they would be out of business by now.

Yes, it's sad for all those affected like it always is when someone loses their job. When a mine runs try and closes down in remote area, the town that supported it necessarily does too because there is no other practical reason for it to exist -- unless they can find one. This is just a practical reality.

Again, this is an industry-wide thing with multiple factors:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022–2025_video_game_industry_layoffs

That page includes detailed quotes from Phil Spencer.

Desiato · July 25

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

It would be reckless to operate a business otherwise, and they could actually be legally liable if they did so.

Where did I say anything about capitalism? I'm talking about basic things like employers should have to give notifications to people that layoffs are coming and that they have been laid off rather than people just suddenly finding themselves locked out and completely confused.

This is how people are let go from corporations and most serious businesses. It is necessary to avoid sabotage from distraught/angry employees acting on impulse. When one is at work when the decision is made for them to be let go, they are escorted out of the building. Of course not everyone would act with malice, but because it's a realistic possibility for fired employees to act like this, it is a necessary security precaution.

Also, again, the last we heard, they are all still being paid with benefits.