Accounts banned from guild question

Vulkunne · July 22

Adaarye wrote: »

When we accept ZoS ToS we agree to abide by how ZoS has these things set up. If ZoS has things set up so that your @names all follow a player no matter how many times the player changes it.

I believe the right to privacy in game only applies to ones personal information. I could be wrong though but I don't think I am.

Would you consider your friends list or guild list as being personal info, yes, or no?

If your friends list is not considered public info, then my @name should be the same. Your character name might be a different story however, but I think things should be setup a little differently is all. If you all still disagree with this, then your friend's list and guild's list should be part of public domain, and anyone should be able to view those at any time, on request.

There are ways on some platforms to setup an alias as well as other ways to add extra layers of protection to someone's account. And none of that is being done in this game. But you can't have it both ways. I'm not making any excuses for a system that has its flaws.

Vulkunne · July 22

Gegensmith wrote: »

What's more, there are plenty of situations in which it is entirely appropriate for guild-masters to circulate a player's name to other guilds. We do this frequently. Rob the guild bank of all items? Guess what. We warn other guild masters about your behaviour and your name circulates throughout the guilds on the whole server. That's how it works. That's how it should work.

No personal info, including the @name, should be mass-circulated without that person's consent given. Quite frankly, I'm not shocked that the concept of permanently damaging someone else's reputation in a game seems to come for some as such a light thing, especially for more than a few Guild Officers (as I've seen both in-game and on the forums), who you would think should be moral, upstanding people who can handle responsibility.

I think that while Guilds can serve a good purpose, some of these 'Guild' leaders need to come down a peg, get over trying to play Sheriff, and looking for a fight with others who either disagree with you or cause offense to 'someone' in your lofty Guild. We don't need that either. I don't need a Guild Officer breathing down my neck because I make a point that bothers them, either here or in game. This is why I am a solo player, this is why I value my personal economy as not to rely on anyone else because some of us are tired of dealing with these 'thugs'. Because look, that is the choice we have here (or should have). Isn't someone's identity worth more than this? I'm worth more than someone being able to watch me make changes to my identity, from the shadows and then harass me in a very passive aggressive manner just because you don't like me by keeping tabs on me which in turn would serve to deny me other opportunities, all because of one person's vendetta. Does not work this way irl. You can get sued rather easily for defamation. I mean really easily.

When you guys do that, as several here have admitted to doing already, you are showing no better than some of these other examples of bad behavior. It should not be allowed and people doing this are just as guilty because what you're doing may or may not have started out as the right reason but over time it comes from a place of malicious intent. In any other context, it would be safe to say that bad people would do something for the wrong reason. And so, I'm saying that Guild Officers can be bad people for passing out others @names in such a hateful manner especially when you're already put them on ignore. It really feels like a case of double-jeopardy.

Me and my identity are worth more than someone else's mire of me. And ZOS should have done more to protect us from others out there looking for trouble and looking to enforce their fake authority over those they have a personal issue with. As far as I know, that during my time with this game, I have proven three things:

1) People need me, and I need them for sales and groups. This would include some trade Guilds but maybe not necessarily.
2) I have helped many people in the past. Free of charge. No agenda, no gimmicks, no Sheriff, no expectations. No lists.
3) I can do without everything else.

I do not agree with you which makes me thankful that I don't have to rely on Guilds. I have never forced my presence on anyone, ever, not one time. But you cannot have such a heavy handed approach to things and say the same. People will be people and if you don't know how to deal with people or you have like really thin skin then you should not be a Guild Officer.

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Gegensmith · July 22

Look. I see you're struggling to grasp this. So let's lay it out clearly:

You behave badly, you get banned, we are able to ensure you remain banned.

Falsifying what happens doesn't make your argument correct. Your account name isn't being "mass circulated". Those that have access to it are those who have banned you.

Neither is anyone "breathing down my neck because I make a point that bothers them, either here or in game. "

Neither does anyone have access to your "identity". We have the ability to prevent you from causing harm to our members. That is as it should be.

Neither is anyone "harassing" you. On the contrary. We prevent you from rejoining our guild after you have been banned.

In what conceivable way can this be construed as "deny[ing] you opportunities".

If you steal from our guild bank, then, yes, it is entirely appropriate that we warn other guild leaders of your behaviour and that you are prevented from harming others.

And, no, nothing of any of this would allow you or anyone else to sue me for "defamation". In case you are unclear about this, if a player's account is circulated among GMs, the GM is required to provide evidence that you've done the thing you are accused of having done: racist or phobic language, stealing from the bank, abusing other players, whatever. In which case, you are not being "defamed" you are being held to account for your actions.

You can attempt to misconstrue this as being "bad behavior", or as coming from "malicious intent" or acting in a "hateful manner" as much as you like. You are wrong. You are being held to account for your actions. We are protecting others from the harm you have caused.

This is not "fake authority". This is the authority we have as guild leaders to protect our members from you.

And, to disabuse you of at least one of your illusions: no, we don't need you.

What we do need is the ability to ensure that, having caused harm, you are prevented, as far as possible, from committing further harm.

kevkj · July 22

If you have information regarding collusion and/or conspiracy between Sheriffs of unsavoury nature in The Elder Scrolls Online, you might be entitled to a federal name change and witness security if you agree to testify in court.

Vulkunne · July 22

Gegensmith wrote: »

Look. I see you're struggling to grasp this. So let's lay it out clearly:

You behave badly, you get banned, we are able to ensure you remain banned.

Falsifying what happens doesn't make your argument correct. Your account name isn't being "mass circulated". Those that have access to it are those who have banned you.

Neither is anyone "breathing down my neck because I make a point that bothers them, either here or in game. "

Neither does anyone have access to your "identity". We have the ability to prevent you from causing harm to our members. That is as it should be.

Neither is anyone "harassing" you. On the contrary. We prevent you from rejoining our guild after you have been banned.

In what conceivable way can this be construed as "deny[ing] you opportunities".

If you steal from our guild bank, then, yes, it is entirely appropriate that we warn other guild leaders of your behaviour and that you are prevented from harming others.

And, no, nothing of any of this would allow you or anyone else to sue me for "defamation". In case you are unclear about this, if a player's account is circulated among GMs, the GM is required to provide evidence that you've done the thing you are accused of having done: racist or phobic language, stealing from the bank, abusing other players, whatever. In which case, you are not being "defamed" you are being held to account for your actions.

You can attempt to misconstrue this as being "bad behavior", or as coming from "malicious intent" or acting in a "hateful manner" as much as you like. You are wrong. You are being held to account for your actions. We are protecting others from the harm you have caused.

This is not "fake authority". This is the authority we have as guild leaders to protect our members from you.

And, to disabuse you of at least one of your illusions: no, we don't need you.

What we do need is the ability to ensure that, having caused harm, you are prevented, as far as possible, from committing further harm.

I'm fine and un-bothered. Don't need anything from a Guild.

I disagree with you, respectfully.

Whose being held accountable? Surely, you're not trying to say I did anything wrong. Correct? And during my time participating with this discussion, I am not coming from a place where I did. Yet some of those who have responded are treating me as if I in fact did. There's no logic in that. Either make your argument from a point of logic or not but logic requires facts or its not logical.

So please let me know what I did, or kindly stop saying it. Outside of this discussion you don't know me. This is exactly why this is a problem because too many assumptions as to my character seem to be getting made here. Which is not very nice.

@Gegensmith you seem rather heavy handed, and I really don't see any way or need to reason with someone telling me things like "no one needs me". Cause there's a couple hundred people I've met over the last 10 years that might also disagree with you and that's no Illusion. I've done all kinds of things in game for many years, and you want to know what? I did them without needing your approval, just a lot of hard work and a great many hours spent on Trials, PvP and researching things.

Vulkunne · July 22

kevkj wrote: »

If you have information regarding collusion and/or conspiracy between Sheriffs of unsavoury nature in The Elder Scrolls Online, you might be entitled to a federal name change and witness security if you agree to testify in court.

If someone either doensn't understand how to deal with people or they have no respect for the law itself, then I can only say two things:

1) That person should not be a Guild Officer.
2) That person doesn't need to know anything about my personal info, including my @name.

See I recognize a couple people on here because I'm in same Guild as some of them so... Hard as it is to accept, I know more about what I'm talking about than you might think. All I can say about this.

I've seen some things man, and some stuff; I wouldn't recommend any of it.

Gegensmith · July 22

The law does not prevent us from identifying your ESO account when you have caused harm.

The law does not prevent us from sharing the information about the harm you have caused with other guild leaders.

The law does not prevent us from protecting our members from you when you have caused harm.

So far as "how to deal with people": I would suggest enrolling yourself in courses both in the law and in ethics. As guild officers, we have an ethical obligation to protect others from the harm you cause. You can whine about how you've "realised you've messed up" and how much you "want a second chance" all you like. You can claim that you have the right to "start over with better circumstances" as you put it. You don't. Yes, when you abuse our members, steal from our bank, make use of derogatory language, make inappropriate sexual advances to other players, or a host of other poor behaviours, we have the right to ensure that you are not allowed to do that to our members again, even when you decide that you're a far better person now and are entitled to a clean slate when you change your account name. You don't have that right. You don't get a free pass just because you've decided you're a nicer person than you were before or because you've decided to change your account name. Yes, we will judge you for those behaviours. It is entirely appropriate to do so.

Vulkunne · July 22

Gegensmith wrote: »

The law does not prevent us from identifying your ESO account when you have caused harm.

The law does not prevent us from sharing the information about the harm you have caused with other guild leaders.

The law does not prevent us from protecting our members from you when you have caused harm.

So far as "how to deal with people": I would suggest enrolling yourself in courses both in the law and in ethics. As guild officers, we have an ethical obligation to protect others from the harm you cause. You can whine about how you've "realised you've messed up" and how much you "want a second chance" all you like. You can claim that you have the right to "start over with better circumstances" as you put it. You don't. Yes, when you abuse our members, steal from our bank, make use of derogatory language, make inappropriate sexual advances to other players, or a host of other poor behaviours, we have the right to ensure that you are not allowed to do that to our members again, even when you decide that you're a far better person now and are entitled to a clean slate when you change your account name. You don't have that right. You don't get a free pass just because you've decided you're a nicer person than you were before or because you've decided to change your account name. Yes, we will judge you for those behaviours. It is entirely appropriate to do so.

Judgement, of any kind, made without meaningful evidence is itself meaningless; I think it's actually called something else. Logic requires facts or its not logical. Therefore, I think it's safe to conclude that people @names being abused is not logical and there are many people doing things in this game for the wrong reason. Doesn't matter who they are or what they may think of themselves.

I would also say, if you feel this strongly that someone did these things you're talking about, then I would hope you would not take it out on their @name without opening a ticket and also enabling ZOS to do their job as well. If this is not happening, then something is wrong and it's not me.

sarahthes · July 22

Vulkunne wrote: »

Gegensmith wrote: »

The law does not prevent us from identifying your ESO account when you have caused harm.

The law does not prevent us from sharing the information about the harm you have caused with other guild leaders.

The law does not prevent us from protecting our members from you when you have caused harm.

So far as "how to deal with people": I would suggest enrolling yourself in courses both in the law and in ethics. As guild officers, we have an ethical obligation to protect others from the harm you cause. You can whine about how you've "realised you've messed up" and how much you "want a second chance" all you like. You can claim that you have the right to "start over with better circumstances" as you put it. You don't. Yes, when you abuse our members, steal from our bank, make use of derogatory language, make inappropriate sexual advances to other players, or a host of other poor behaviours, we have the right to ensure that you are not allowed to do that to our members again, even when you decide that you're a far better person now and are entitled to a clean slate when you change your account name. You don't have that right. You don't get a free pass just because you've decided you're a nicer person than you were before or because you've decided to change your account name. Yes, we will judge you for those behaviours. It is entirely appropriate to do so.

Judgement, of any kind, made without meaningful evidence is itself meaningless; I think it's actually called something else. Logic requires facts or its not logical. Therefore, I think it's safe to conclude that people @names being abused is not logical and there are many people doing things in this game for the wrong reason. Doesn't matter who they are or what they may think of themselves.

I would also say, if you feel this strongly that someone did these things you're talking about, then I would hope you would not take it out on their @name without opening a ticket and also enabling ZOS to do their job as well. If this is not happening, then something is wrong and it's not me.

Groups aren't obligated to include everyone.

Someone can be disruptive or a poor fit without technically doing anything actionable by ZOS. Doesn't mean the guild needs to keep them around.

Vulkunne · July 22

sarahthes wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Gegensmith wrote: »

The law does not prevent us from identifying your ESO account when you have caused harm.

The law does not prevent us from sharing the information about the harm you have caused with other guild leaders.

The law does not prevent us from protecting our members from you when you have caused harm.

So far as "how to deal with people": I would suggest enrolling yourself in courses both in the law and in ethics. As guild officers, we have an ethical obligation to protect others from the harm you cause. You can whine about how you've "realised you've messed up" and how much you "want a second chance" all you like. You can claim that you have the right to "start over with better circumstances" as you put it. You don't. Yes, when you abuse our members, steal from our bank, make use of derogatory language, make inappropriate sexual advances to other players, or a host of other poor behaviours, we have the right to ensure that you are not allowed to do that to our members again, even when you decide that you're a far better person now and are entitled to a clean slate when you change your account name. You don't have that right. You don't get a free pass just because you've decided you're a nicer person than you were before or because you've decided to change your account name. Yes, we will judge you for those behaviours. It is entirely appropriate to do so.

Judgement, of any kind, made without meaningful evidence is itself meaningless; I think it's actually called something else. Logic requires facts or its not logical. Therefore, I think it's safe to conclude that people @names being abused is not logical and there are many people doing things in this game for the wrong reason. Doesn't matter who they are or what they may think of themselves.

I would also say, if you feel this strongly that someone did these things you're talking about, then I would hope you would not take it out on their @name without opening a ticket and also enabling ZOS to do their job as well. If this is not happening, then something is wrong and it's not me.

Groups aren't obligated to include everyone.

Someone can be disruptive or a poor fit without technically doing anything actionable by ZOS. Doesn't mean the guild needs to keep them around.

The other person referenced I guess 'them' reaching a Judgement for certain things related to banning another player's @name. So, what I said was more for their reply. Having an opinion about someone to me is not quite the same as a 'Judgement'. That's a hard stance to take and other person I'm pretty sure meant it that way. But I can't answer for them.

JavaRen · July 22

So, how do we simultaneously maintain the ability to blacklist/ignore a <insert very negative descriptor> after a name change, while also allowing the victims of stalking/ harassment to have a way to sneak away/hide?

SerafinaWaterstar · July 23

Your @name is not considered personal information.

Furthermore, you have agreed to reveal it in a public sphere (in order to access the game).

Putting someone on an in-game Ignore list is not a breach of their privacy.

ThetaSigma · July 23

Pretty sure that each account has a unique key identification so name is irrelevant.

Tandor · July 23

Vulkunne wrote: »

No bypass. It follows you.

What if someone realizes they messed up and just wants a fresh start you know?

Then they can open a new account, or play the original account on the other regional server. Yes they will have to start over, but that's the price paid for building a negative reputation on the original account and server. It's called taking responsibility for their actions.

SpiritKitten · July 23

So as far as that pvp addon that shows if a user changed their name...it only shows the last name they changed from...do with that info as you will, if you can figure out what I mean.

Vulkunne · July 23

Tandor wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

No bypass. It follows you.

What if someone realizes they messed up and just wants a fresh start you know?

Then they can open a new account, or play the original account on the other regional server. Yes they will have to start over, but that's the price paid for building a negative reputation on the original account and server. It's called taking responsibility for their actions.

Why is the burden of proof exclusively on the accused? So what you're saying is that if someone wants to blame me for something and damage my reputation, pursue a vendetta against me, even if I did nothing wrong to them, to anyone, even if it's done for the wrong reason and even if I don't even know the person personally, (or even know that they're doing this right?), then everyone who gave me this reply is saying it's all my responsibility? I'm responsible for someone else's feelings and the damage they have done to me unjustly. (If it were to affect me, that is.)

No, I disagree. This is not justice. That's evil and no one should have to be asked to do something like this ever. If the world truly worked this way, everyone accused would be guilty until proven innocent. That is not the world that I want any part of and the fact that so many are comfortable with this outlook is really concerning.

And some of you out there wonder why we are having such a bad time of things now, well sometimes things are happening for a reason.

@JavaRen

I am not going to rehash the last couple pages of this thread. The argument is not whether or not someone can be put on ignore or try to force who you can associate with. If you won't read things I already addressed, then I'm not going to keep the conversation going further. I think that thru this thread I have drawn the 'poison' from the wound and done a great deal towards unmasking things that have stood in the light day doing what they want to others for far too long. If it hadn't been me, it would have hopefully been someone else thinking of others and not just what's good for themselves... surely. I can only hope... but then again, I know better.

JavaRen · July 23

Okay, being ignored/blacklisted is not something you get to object to, the other party gets to choose who to associate with, full stop.

Actual harassment is actionable under the ToS and can, and should, be reported as such.

So what are we actually arguing about? What specific change is desired?

spartaxoxo · July 23

Naming and shaming in zone chat is already against the TOS.

Slander is already against the TOS. If someone is going around spreading false rumors about you, report them and present your evidence.

These two things are harassment and against the TOS. Report that person and block them.

A person telling their friends and guild mates about a true negative experience that they had with you is neither of those things. It is them telling their own story. Truth is an ultimate defense against defamation in real life. Victims don't have to be silent.

Not guilty until proven innocent is about courts of law and stripping away rights. It is not about silencing victims from speaking to their own support networks about what happened to them.

A person putting you on their block list or a guild block list is exercising their right to freedom of association. Even if they do so for untrue reasons that only exist in their head, they have a right to choose who they want to associate with. Just move on with your life and associate with someone else.