Patch 47: Let's balance subclassing by making them all the same?

moderatelyfatman · July 9

Dear ZOS, please don't let this be the future of our game.

Gadamlub14_ESO · July 9

too late.

Avalon · July 9

Given that, originally, the 4 base classes truly had differences, flavor, style - but then they decided to homogenize the classes, making them all have the 3-line system of Tank, Healer, DPS? Why does everyone think that of the classes, the most wanted for subclassing are the original 4? It's because those classes had passives that 'played well with others'. The newer 3? Look at Warden.

Green Balance passives, "When you heal with a Green Balance skill"
Animal passives, all about Animal Companions
Same for the Winter line

But Sorcerer? Tons of passives that don't even care if you have an ability slotted. Templar? Still a good number. Even the Assassination line from NB, even though you gotta have abilities slotted... give you NIIIICE bonuses that greatly benefit other lines.

Back to that Warden... can heal with an ability in the Winter line, but that doesn't trigger the passives from Green Balance. The passives WITHIN the class don't even play nice with the other lines from that same class.

So, what do I think will happen with 'balancing' the class lines for subclassing? Yeah, OH yeah... it's going to get ugly bad to ridiculous levels. Other than roleplay value, won't be a reason to play any one class over the other. Waiting for them to back off the class mastery scripts, too, as that unfairly biases builds towards playing one class over another, too.

That's my expectation. Would love to be wrong... but, based on the travesty of their 'Tank, Healer, DPS' setup for skill lines? I don't think I am.

Desiato · July 9

This has happened before and will happen again.

Why do you think the major/minor buff system exists? The abilities that use those used to have unique stat buffs that stacked with each other, which was one of the early balance issues they had to address.

It seemed like the end of the world when that system was introduced to some because they couldn't keep playing the way they were accustomed to. What happened to those concerns? Lost to time.

CAB_Life · July 9

We’re about a year from subclassing having anything close to a semblance of balance—especially with a new director taking over and whatever vision he has in mind.

s3dulo · July 9

Balance is totally wack right now and variety is getting penalized. Why did ZOS hate the max resource build so much? They removed the hardened ward heal....unnecessary but whatever....now Bound Armor no longer grants 8% bonus to mag or stam??? Why? Max resource play should be encouraged because it adds variety. Ideally, this game should encourage a variety of play styles in a way that makes it debatable which one is better. PVP feels mostly bland and homogenized with everyone running rallying cry while launching blastbones, beetles, and spec bows at each other with few exceptions.

There are 21 class skill lines and yet probably 80-90% of PVP builds contain 2 or more of the following 5 skill lines:

Assassination
Animal Companion
Aedric Spear
Gravelord
Storm Calling

You all really need to buff the dead skill lines. Subclassing should encourage greater variety but it's done the opposite.

redlink1979 · July 9

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Dear ZOS, please don't let this be the future of our game.

If it's in PTS then it's the future of the game.......

Vulkunne · July 9

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Dear ZOS, please don't let this be the future of our game.

In my opinion, more than anything else, it's things like this that are so dangerous to this game.

One thing about ESO that makes me madder than anything else is finding my 'place' in the game, with sets or builds or whatever and then... ZOS nerfs something else or some streamer needs reviews and sees that people like me have it not great but okish, and then... everyone shifts and starts using the things that I like just because. Take subclassing for example. Before subclassing, I worked hard to learn how to play a NB during a time when many hated the class. Now everyone using Assassin skill line. Seriously. I'm not overly fond of Sorcs and now I'm using their ability to Streak... on a NB. These two classes have traditionally been mutually exclusive.

It seems something is seriously going south with the way things are balanced now. Do they have some good improvements, absolutely. But distinctiveness drives challenge because it draws others interest to both concepts. Now that everything is falling into the same scope of benefits, we're losing class distinctiveness at an even faster rate than before. Others may have laughed or even mocked us for talking about this once upon a time but now it's no longer just a concept it's the writing on the wall. Same goes saying certain things 'were' a skill issue when clearly that is no longer the case.

ESO has and will continue to be a good thing, but for right now I don't think innovation is a healthy direction for this game until some of these other issues are better realized.

Desiato · July 9

Vulkunne wrote: »

It seems something is seriously going south with the way things are balanced now.

Now? This is literally the way it's been for many years. At least going back to 2017 when they intentionally started
homogenizing classes. It was very clear that subclassing would ultimately result in standardization of many unique things, which is why I argued against it. But it happened already. It's not going to be rolled back.

There have been so many major changes to ESO over the years that I doubt any single person can remember them all. For example, class abilities used to be OP by design. Like the strife and searing strike skill lines, for example, had a tiny cost. With a couple of cost reduction glyphs, they seemed almost free with high regen. Like I could spam swallow soul without losing resources! Because each class had them, they offset each other. But players complained because they wanted non-class skill lines to be competitive.

The first ult nerf happened... I think with 1.6? I don't quite remember. Before that I think -- but again I don't quite remember --damage and healing would generate ult. We used to be able to charge ult before engagements. I remember jumping off cliffs to damage myself to generate ult healing at some point. Again, I don't remember the details, but it was super easy to generate ult.

The whole LA/HA/Bash/Block method for generating ult was one of the first ult nerfs. It doesn't seem so bad now, does it? But at the time, it was the end of the world to some players.

Speaking of 1.6, it was pretty much a complete redesign of the combat system. For years a vocal minority complained about how much they missed 1.5. 1.5 was the first iteration of u35 lamenting.

I guess I'm in the same boat because I miss 2.1-2.3 pvp so much!

Personally, I was distressed for years while they changed the game from one designed for core gamers to one designed for skyrim casuals. But it was a waste of time and energy.

The majority of players aren't even going to notice the u47 ult changes.

Anyway, things like 12 second barriers are broken at a gameplay level. Groups using subclassing to its maximum benefit are cruising through content like it's nothing. It breaks the game. The sooner they address this, the more painless it will be.

Here's what is happening right now: An exec decided there would be subclassing by a certain date and it was up for the combat design team to figure it out. They didn't have enough time, but did the best they could by that date. Now they're continuing that process. It will be ongoing for a long time.

crappyjazz1964 · July 9

I think ZOS struggles with communication not just to its player base but internally as well. Seems like projects are being worked on in silos without much in the way of corroboration which leads to all these over-the-top updates to try to fix stuff they pushed out too fast.

Cooperharley · July 9

Desiato wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

It seems something is seriously going south with the way things are balanced now.

Now? This is literally the way it's been for many years. At least going back to 2017 when they intentionally started
homogenizing classes. It was very clear that subclassing would ultimately result in standardization of many unique things, which is why I argued against it. But it happened already. It's not going to be rolled back.

There have been so many major changes to ESO over the years that I doubt any single person can remember them all. For example, class abilities used to be OP by design. Like the strife and searing strike skill lines, for example, had a tiny cost. With a couple of cost reduction glyphs, they seemed almost free with high regen. Like I could spam swallow soul without losing resources! Because each class had them, they offset each other. But players complained because they wanted non-class skill lines to be competitive.

The first ult nerf happened... I think with 1.6? I don't quite remember. Before that I think -- but again I don't quite remember --damage and healing would generate ult. We used to be able to charge ult before engagements. I remember jumping off cliffs to damage myself to generate ult healing at some point. Again, I don't remember the details, but it was super easy to generate ult.

Speaking of 1.6, it was pretty much a complete redesign of the combat system. For years a vocal minority complained about how much they missed 1.5. 1.5 was the first iteration of u35 lamenting.

I guess I'm in the same boat because I miss 2.1-2.3 pvp so much!

The whole LA/HA/Bash/Block method for generating ult was one of the first ult nerfs. But it doesn't seem so bad now, does it? But at the time, it was the end of the world to some players.

Personally, I was distressed for years while they changed the game from a game designed for core gamers to one designed for skyrim casuals. But it was a waste of time and energy.

The majority of players aren't even going to notice the u47 ult changes.

Anyway, things like 12 second barriers is broken at a gameplay level. Groups using subclassing to its maximum benefit are cruising through content like it's nothing. It breaks the game. The sooner they address this, the more painless it will be.

Here's what is happening right now: An exec decided there would be subclassing by a certain date and it was up for the combat design team to figure it out. They didn't have enough time, but did the best they could by that date. Now they're continuing that process. It will be ongoing for a long time.

Yea I agree with this. U35 was the tipping point and its been really rough since then update after update

heaven13 · July 9

Hybridization was the real start of this. Classes used to be good at "their thing". Templars stayed in their house, DKs had the war of attrition thing going on, NBs were fast, up front damage, etc. Different classes countered other classes and each had certain things they did better than others: single target vs aoe, for example. A nice spot was hit where classes could generally do all roles but the WAY they did it was different - different rotations, different timings to those rotations, different abilities and synergies to all work together. Mastering one class was NOT the same as mastering a different class and that mastery was definitely a goal for some people.

ZoS (and lots of players) mistake balance for homogenization. And the more that type of experience gets delivered, the worse off the game gets because the spark that made it special slowly dwindles and sputters. For some people, it's already gone.

Rungar · July 9

seems like they are just preventing ultimate stacking since if you already have heroism theres no extra benefit like there was before. seems like a reasonable change to me an well in line with the major/minor buff system.

Treeshka · July 9

I still do not understand why they nerf players. They could just keep this player power and create new content based on this power. People who do dungeons and raids will still do them. But nerfing players all the time and making them change their builds is just bad in long run.

Probably a lot of player has made new damage dealer setups with trial sets. Majority of them received changes. This constant change is creating fatigue.

They could just create the new content based on the current player power and move on. They already do it somewhat anyway like look at Jynorah and Skorkhif hard mode health points and look at the S'kinrai and Vashai.

LadyGP · July 9

Honestly, I think this is an intentional direction the studio is taking.

Every class is going to feel the same, every toon is going to feel the same, every set is going to feel the same. Just look at PvP and the recent test... every single person there regardless of skill level (years playing, lvl 10 toon vs max lvl) they all feel the exact same.

This game feels like it's trending in the direction that it's rewarding to new players coming in and for those of us who have been playing for so many years... theres nothing satisfying anymore. This isn't about gatekeeping or "dunking on noobs" - there can be a good balance of low barrier to entry vs rewarding someones time/effort into min/maxing.

The only reason I can think of is that they have been hemeraging players over the years and it's "too hard" for new people to get into it - so their solution is to dumb down every aspect of the game (which is just pushing people away).

IMO - ESO has been chasing trends for the last 7 or so years. It takes them 2 years to implement it and by the time they do the trend they are chasing has alread died. (Korean MMOs where everything is the same and everyone can do literally everything with very little skill or basic understanding of how the game works is an example). Chasing trends leads to the death of a studio/game.

Wish it wasn't this way but we have seen since 2017 thats the directiont he game has gone in.

Just my two cents.

LadyGP · July 9

heaven13 wrote: »

Hybridization was the real start of this. Classes used to be good at "their thing". Templars stayed in their house, DKs had the war of attrition thing going on, NBs were fast, up front damage, etc. Different classes countered other classes and each had certain things they did better than others: single target vs aoe, for example. A nice spot was hit where classes could generally do all roles but the WAY they did it was different - different rotations, different timings to those rotations, different abilities and synergies to all work together. Mastering one class was NOT the same as mastering a different class and that mastery was definitely a goal for some people.

ZoS (and lots of players) mistake balance for homogenization. And the more that type of experience gets delivered, the worse off the game gets because the spark that made it special slowly dwindles and sputters. For some people, it's already gone.

Frayton · July 9

This has been going on for years now.

Mathius_Mordred · July 10

Well, we still have housing, I suppose.

moderatelyfatman · July 10

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

Well, we still have housing, I suppose.

If you say that aloud three times, the ZOS team will come and nerf you.

valenwood_vegan · July 10

There's a pink one, and a green one
and a blue one and a yellow one
and they're all made out of ticky-tacky
and they all look just the same

And there's wardens and templars
and sorcanist dragonknights
and they all have minor heroism
and they all look just the same

And they all play in the trials
and they beam their resources dry
and they all have pretty skill styles
and they all look just the same

Oblivion_Protocol · July 10

I will say that I called this when subclassing was first announced. I said we’d all end up with just another meta where everyone ran the same things and the game wouldn’t change.

I was met with multiple people saying “Noooo, subclassing will be so different, bro! I swear, bro, there will be sooo much variety! Bro, just trust me, subclassing will revive PvP, make the rest of the game better, and cure cancer, bro!”

Well, look at where we are, now. And that’s not mentioning the omegalul buff that the crit-heavy Bladedensorc playstyle got. Strap in, folks, because this is it for at least the next year and a half.

Shadesofkin · July 10

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

I will say that I called this when subclassing was first announced. I said we’d all end up with just another meta where everyone ran the same things and the game wouldn’t change.

I was met with multiple people saying “Noooo, subclassing will be so different, bro! I swear, bro, there will be sooo much variety! Bro, just trust me, subclassing will revive PvP, make the rest of the game better, and cure cancer, bro!”

Well, look at where we are, now. And that’s not mentioning the omegalul buff that the crit-heavy Bladedensorc playstyle got. Strap in, folks, because this is it for at least the next year and a half.

Well in all fairness, Subclassing did lead to people not running pure classes...I suppose that's different (and terrible for me).