Yea ultimately (and I enjoyed Arcanist before), what subclassing has done for me is make me enjoy Arcanist much less because now every single person and their cousin is basically playing it.

It's cool for making fun off-META builds and stuff, but in reality, if you want to be very effective, you're turning any of your characters into an arcanist essentially. I don't think it'd be nearly as noticeable with any other class though. Like if arcanist gets the sledgehammer, which it likely will, the META will shift to the next combination obviously, but I don't think it'll be nearly as in your face as arcanist is just due to cephaliarch's flail & the beam.

Also, them not balancing anything else in the game and just zooming the power up like this was an interesting choice. The game just got MUCH easier.

Certainly way too rushed - it's just not something they can feasibly implement properly in their tiny 5 week - 6 week PTS window. Their approach to testing has to change drastically if they're going to do big game-changing things like this. Especially given that we're locked in like this for 3 months since they don't do any combat updates (hardly any, if at all) in between the updates like other MMOs do.

Rungar wrote: »

see what happens when you remove light weaving from the equation. Beam is the easiest dps that pretty much any player can do. This isnt a subclassing issue as much as it is a combat system issue. Players will avoid having to weave like its a plague.

honestly i dont think its as black and white as you're portraying it. i think its a reasonable mixture of both.

We need a Vengeance PvE.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

see what happens when you remove light weaving from the equation. Beam is the easiest dps that pretty much any player can do. This isnt a subclassing issue as much as it is a combat system issue. Players will avoid having to weave like its a plague.

honestly i dont think its as black and white as you're portraying it. i think its a reasonable mixture of both.

subclassing just gives acces to the easiest play method, making it accessible to everyone, arcanist or not. Players simply choose this method of dps over the weaving method because its easier.

if i had it my way i would finally fix the game ( performance, gameplay, accessibility) after all these years by putting light attack on the global cooldown, which should of been done 8 years ago and im certain its cost zos millions and millions lol.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

see what happens when you remove light weaving from the equation. Beam is the easiest dps that pretty much any player can do. This isnt a subclassing issue as much as it is a combat system issue. Players will avoid having to weave like its a plague.

Light weaving isn't as much of an issue as

gamergirldk wrote: »

What is shows, people want easy rotations. The dont want to keep track of skill times and bar swaps.

the need to upkeep as many DoT's as possible in conjunction with your main spammable.

it is though because weaving allows you to stay as close as possible to the gcd for all other skills. Otherwise youd have to wait for the animation to clear. So its not the damage weaving does but its the great increase in overall apm it can give you which lets you put out more dots etc.

the weaving requirement also makes classes less competetive vs arcanists or arcanist hybrids since they dont have to do that so the correct course is to make all playstyles less reliant on weaving.

theyve put a number of boons in the game already like increasing dots to 20 seconds and increasing buff durations, velothi, oakensoul etc. They might as well finish it off so other classes can be competetive again.

I think this might also be related to people leveling skill lines in dungeons. It is just convenient to have sustainable cleave and single target while leveling defensive/support lines outside of a coherent build. I'd expect to see it a bit less in dungeons as more people finish the subclass leveling process and return to fully configured builds.

gamergirldk wrote: »

What is shows, people want easy rotations. The dont want to keep track of skill times and bar swaps.

I would love to have a rotation that required tracking skill times and bar swaps. Unfortunately a near one-button beam build outperforms everything else.

Subclassing could be great, but Arcanist and specifically fatecarver is a problem infecting every build.

Rungar wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

see what happens when you remove light weaving from the equation. Beam is the easiest dps that pretty much any player can do. This isnt a subclassing issue as much as it is a combat system issue. Players will avoid having to weave like its a plague.

honestly i dont think its as black and white as you're portraying it. i think its a reasonable mixture of both.

subclassing just gives acces to the easiest play method, making it accessible to everyone, arcanist or not. Players simply choose this method of dps over the weaving method because its easier.

if i had it my way i would finally fix the game ( performance, gameplay, accessibility) after all these years by putting light attack on the global cooldown, which should of been done 8 years ago and im certain its cost zos millions and millions lol.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

see what happens when you remove light weaving from the equation. Beam is the easiest dps that pretty much any player can do. This isnt a subclassing issue as much as it is a combat system issue. Players will avoid having to weave like its a plague.

Light weaving isn't as much of an issue as

gamergirldk wrote: »

What is shows, people want easy rotations. The dont want to keep track of skill times and bar swaps.

the need to upkeep as many DoT's as possible in conjunction with your main spammable.

it is though because weaving allows you to stay as close as possible to the gcd for all other skills. Otherwise youd have to wait for the animation to clear. So its not the damage weaving does but its the great increase in overall apm it can give you which lets you put out more dots etc.

the weaving requirement also makes classes less competetive vs arcanists or arcanist hybrids since they dont have to do that so the correct course is to make all playstyles less reliant on weaving.

theyve put a number of boons in the game already like increasing dots to 20 seconds and increasing buff durations, velothi, oakensoul etc. They might as well finish it off so other classes can be competetive again.

Or perhaps the arcanist beam is overtuned in the sense that it's based around numbers including light weaving when it shouldn't. (Since it's targeted at a casual audience not Vet HM Trials audience)

Especially when Velothi Ur Mages amulet is already part of the BiS gearing for arcanist anyway... A Mythic that amplifies damage at the cost of Light Attacks, and Arcanist Beam isn't using Light attacks anyway, it's double-dipping in effectiveness.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

gamergirldk wrote: »

What is shows, people want easy rotations. The dont want to keep track of skill times and bar swaps.

I would love to have a rotation that required tracking skill times and bar swaps. Unfortunately a near one-button beam build outperforms everything else.

Subclassing could be great, but Arcanist and specifically fatecarver is a problem infecting every build.

I don't think it is Fatecarver per se. It is the immense passive power, that comes with using Herald of the Tome.

gamergirldk wrote: »

What is shows, people want easy rotations. The dont want to keep track of skill times and bar swaps.

Yes and no. People do want easier builds/rotations I agree. However alot of it is the absolutely insane DPS it can output. Were lots of easier builds and rotations prior to Arcs arrival & Subclassing. However the easier builds came at the cost of DPS ceiling. As it should. Complex rotations/builds should be more DPS than flail flail beam tralalalla.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Even PvP is so diverse now with its crit builds or other crit builds mixed with the occasional crit build, running that new crit mythic.

This is accurate. It's pretty easy to tell when someone is wearing Monomyth Reforged. Crit damage is so high now that crit resistance is almost a wasted stat unless you have ~4500+
At 3000 crit resistance and 38k armor, I'll still take 12k hits.

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Even PvP is so diverse now with its crit builds or other crit builds mixed with the occasional crit build, running that new crit mythic.

This is accurate. It's pretty easy to tell when someone is wearing Monomyth Reforged. Crit damage is so high now that crit resistance is almost a wasted stat unless you have ~4500+
At 3000 crit resistance and 38k armor, I'll still take 12k hits.

Whats funny is the people still running reinforced chests. Impen is worth like 2% crit dmg mit. Reinforced heavy chest is only like 0.65% mit. So long as the enemy has 33% crit you are better off with impen. Everyone sits at 40-50% by default now in PvP or they are at 100% crit chance.

Its just funny the illusion of choice that people cant grasp. Hilarious when there are dozens of systems in place for making builds, but 90% of them are just all defaulting to one vastly better "choice". Yeah..... so much more diversity than vengeance. Just imagine what the game could be if the stat system wasn't made a joke in favor of dlc proc set power creep.

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

What was glaringly obvious since the PTS for subclassing is exactly what we're seeing now. How is that surprising?

Yes it was for everyone who plays this game on a level a bit higher then erp in Riften, but when I wrote about this 3 months ago on reddit I was downvoted to hell because "hater that don't understand zos genius ideas"

Versalium wrote: »

I don't see an issue with subsclassing, but I do see an issue with some people using overpowered DLC classes while others, who don't have the DLC's, can't use them.

In PvE, the basic class alone is strong enough.
In PvP, you will have to kill your emotions.

actually in PvP subclassing leads to quite diverse builds.

Nowadays on my sorc I have around 10 builds, which use skill lines of all other classes, and rotate between them.

1) pure MagSorc (just 3 skill sort skill lines)
2) nighsorc - assassination + storm calling + daedric
or variation of assassination + storm calling + necro skill line with blast bones

both have burst on demand, mobility from streak, delayed burst and sinergize with critical

3) shadowsorc - dark magic + shadow magic + Daedric

same, but mobility with clock instead of streak and more bar space

4) dk sorc - storm calling + draconic power + Daedric summoning or necro skill line

undodgable burst with DK ult + delated burst here + mobility and execute from storm calling

5) spear sorc - dark magic + templar line with spear + dadric

no mobility here, but fine in BGs where you sit behind the group and do curse - meteor - spear - frags

6) warden sorc - dark magic + shalks + necro

7) bomb build with necro and roa

and I have not started playing with dot builds yet.

before subclassing, I could play only (1), now I have like 10 different builds to play with. You can argue that everyone in PvP run streak, but it's just 1 skill line, useful for mobility. and you still have options instead - cloak, swift, mist (jk).

gamergirldk wrote: »

What is shows, people want easy rotations. The dont want to keep track of skill times and bar swaps.

That may be, but arcanist beam as well as heavy attack builds are best if you keep DoTs applied as well (non-issue if things are dying too fast for DoTs to be worthwhile). Personally, I prefer that kind of optimization over trying to perfectly time those light attack weaves.