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Vengeance Test Campaign Round 2 (June 30-July 8)
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LadyGP✭✭✭✭✭
✭DeadlySerious wrote: »MorallyBipolar wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Four_Fingers wrote: »*sigh*
The last Vengeance was horrible and boring. I've spent thousands of hours farming gear and theory crafting builds only for vengeance to allow absolutely nothing other than WWI style fighting that has no skill, tact, or planning...
Vengeance is more challenging and skill intensive. No carry sets so you must rely on your skills and timing, everyone is playing with similar stats so the playing field is more even, sustain is worse so you can't just press buttons, every mistake is more punishing, and groups still have benefit in coordination they just can't turn on cheese godmode by abusing bad mechanics like heal/shield stacking then crutch on pull sets to ult dump.
Vengeance was the most players they've ever had in Cyrodiil at once, fights all over the map, seeing messages like "Your alliance has reached the maximum capacity for forward camps" for the first time, performance was pristine I only experienced lag a couple of times the entire test, and it actually felt like a battlefield and keep sieges. If that's horrible and boring, but you think live Cyrodiil where plan A is stacking so many HoTs and shields where you can ignore all incoming damage and plan B is resource/rock/tower hugging is the epitome of skill, planning, and engaging gameplay idk what to tell you.
I think ZOS could've done better letting players know the test was even happening by using in game announcements since the last couple of days when players came to check out the golden vendor zone chat was filled with players who knew nothing about the test. Hitting record numbers when you fail to advertise your test just shows how much potential Cyro has and puts a spotlight on how much they dropped the ball with live Cyro to where many PvPers myself included won't even touch it from how many issues they've let fester.
Yep, with Vengeance it will be whoever brings the most bodies wins, alliance stacking zerg heaven, how skillful!
This. I'm not sure how anyone can say vengeance was more "skillful" with how shallow the experience was. There was practically zero room to express skill. It compressed the skill floor and skill ceiling to a crawlspace, and unless they change how the target caps in Vengeance work, it will never be anything more then "the big zerg wins" because there will never be a way to fight against big groups.
That being said, live right now is also a hot mess, so pick your poison I guess. Do you want a lag filled Rush of Agony fest where you spend 30 minutes looking for a single fight that isn't against a ballgroup? Or do you want to zerg surf the night away on a server with perfect performance but not have any hope of fighting against a zerg without one of your own by your side?
Easy. Take two people of similar physical and athletic ability and put them in a ring. No weapons, gloves, body armor, or performance enhancers the winner will be the one with more applied combat experience. That's the biggest deciding factor and that's what Vengeance was. The more skilled player still came out on top 9 times out of 10. The simplified lack of expression is what made it a bigger skill check compared to live.
Expression is already an illusion of choice. Hybridization cut the number of builds in half, and subclassing further narrowed that expression to a few overperforming skill lines. Even if you stick to your main on an underperforming class you're most likely running at least one of these skill lines Assassination, Restoring Light, Storm Calling, Animal Companions, or Aedric Spear. 5% of people will try and make something work that fits in with the identity of their character like before when you had a handful of Necros and Arcs. While the other 95% will be some variation of Shalks, Incap, double Spec Bow and Streak away if that didn't work.
Sure, in an even number fight yes, the more skilled player came out on top in Vengeance; but there's almost never an even number fight, and Vengeance made it nigh impossible to fight heavily outnumbered due to target caps.
Sure, but even in live currently the fights are never even. They have a stream coming up in 30 minutes I think where they are going to talk about the next test. I expect to see more skill lines added and fingers crossed more siege. Siege can turn the tide in a fight easily.MorallyBipolar wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
If/when Vengeance is a finished product that delivers the PvP experience I want, I'll gladly pay again. It shows a lot of promise, but next week is still just a test, not a permanent addition.I respect taking a stand with your wallet, but for some of us, this shift toward performance and actual system reworks is exactly the sign of hope we’ve been waiting for. We’re not going anywhere.
Yes, I agree with everything you just said. ZoS has made it clear it's not permanent. This is just the next iteration of their test and attempt to collect more data.
Not permanent ....for now. ZOS has backtracked on a lot of statements in the past though when it comes to PvP commitments.
Sure - I agree. Game development is fluid 100%. BUT I don't think it's fair to them to hold this against them. I'll take them at their word that the current state of vengeance test isn't their end goal. I have no reason to not believe them.
I'm still waiting on the improvements we were supposed to have gotten after that series of about 5 tests that lasted a few months a few years back. The nothing that came from that was pretty disheartening.
I think the vengeance "tests" are less about performance testing and more about seeing how the players respond to the dumbed down version.
100% couldn't disagree more with you.LadyGP/xCatGuy
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fizzybeef✭✭✭✭DeadlySerious wrote: »MorallyBipolar wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Four_Fingers wrote: »*sigh*
The last Vengeance was horrible and boring. I've spent thousands of hours farming gear and theory crafting builds only for vengeance to allow absolutely nothing other than WWI style fighting that has no skill, tact, or planning...
Vengeance is more challenging and skill intensive. No carry sets so you must rely on your skills and timing, everyone is playing with similar stats so the playing field is more even, sustain is worse so you can't just press buttons, every mistake is more punishing, and groups still have benefit in coordination they just can't turn on cheese godmode by abusing bad mechanics like heal/shield stacking then crutch on pull sets to ult dump.
Vengeance was the most players they've ever had in Cyrodiil at once, fights all over the map, seeing messages like "Your alliance has reached the maximum capacity for forward camps" for the first time, performance was pristine I only experienced lag a couple of times the entire test, and it actually felt like a battlefield and keep sieges. If that's horrible and boring, but you think live Cyrodiil where plan A is stacking so many HoTs and shields where you can ignore all incoming damage and plan B is resource/rock/tower hugging is the epitome of skill, planning, and engaging gameplay idk what to tell you.
I think ZOS could've done better letting players know the test was even happening by using in game announcements since the last couple of days when players came to check out the golden vendor zone chat was filled with players who knew nothing about the test. Hitting record numbers when you fail to advertise your test just shows how much potential Cyro has and puts a spotlight on how much they dropped the ball with live Cyro to where many PvPers myself included won't even touch it from how many issues they've let fester.
Yep, with Vengeance it will be whoever brings the most bodies wins, alliance stacking zerg heaven, how skillful!
This. I'm not sure how anyone can say vengeance was more "skillful" with how shallow the experience was. There was practically zero room to express skill. It compressed the skill floor and skill ceiling to a crawlspace, and unless they change how the target caps in Vengeance work, it will never be anything more then "the big zerg wins" because there will never be a way to fight against big groups.
That being said, live right now is also a hot mess, so pick your poison I guess. Do you want a lag filled Rush of Agony fest where you spend 30 minutes looking for a single fight that isn't against a ballgroup? Or do you want to zerg surf the night away on a server with perfect performance but not have any hope of fighting against a zerg without one of your own by your side?
Easy. Take two people of similar physical and athletic ability and put them in a ring. No weapons, gloves, body armor, or performance enhancers the winner will be the one with more applied combat experience. That's the biggest deciding factor and that's what Vengeance was. The more skilled player still came out on top 9 times out of 10. The simplified lack of expression is what made it a bigger skill check compared to live.
Expression is already an illusion of choice. Hybridization cut the number of builds in half, and subclassing further narrowed that expression to a few overperforming skill lines. Even if you stick to your main on an underperforming class you're most likely running at least one of these skill lines Assassination, Restoring Light, Storm Calling, Animal Companions, or Aedric Spear. 5% of people will try and make something work that fits in with the identity of their character like before when you had a handful of Necros and Arcs. While the other 95% will be some variation of Shalks, Incap, double Spec Bow and Streak away if that didn't work.
Sure, in an even number fight yes, the more skilled player came out on top in Vengeance; but there's almost never an even number fight, and Vengeance made it nigh impossible to fight heavily outnumbered due to target caps.
Sure, but even in live currently the fights are never even. They have a stream coming up in 30 minutes I think where they are going to talk about the next test. I expect to see more skill lines added and fingers crossed more siege. Siege can turn the tide in a fight easily.MorallyBipolar wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
If/when Vengeance is a finished product that delivers the PvP experience I want, I'll gladly pay again. It shows a lot of promise, but next week is still just a test, not a permanent addition.I respect taking a stand with your wallet, but for some of us, this shift toward performance and actual system reworks is exactly the sign of hope we’ve been waiting for. We’re not going anywhere.
Yes, I agree with everything you just said. ZoS has made it clear it's not permanent. This is just the next iteration of their test and attempt to collect more data.
Not permanent ....for now. ZOS has backtracked on a lot of statements in the past though when it comes to PvP commitments.
Sure - I agree. Game development is fluid 100%. BUT I don't think it's fair to them to hold this against them. I'll take them at their word that the current state of vengeance test isn't their end goal. I have no reason to not believe them.
I'm still waiting on the improvements we were supposed to have gotten after that series of about 5 tests that lasted a few months a few years back. The nothing that came from that was pretty disheartening.
I think the vengeance "tests" are less about performance testing and more about seeing how the players respond to the dumbed down version.
with quitting if it goes permanent2 -
StihlReign✭✭✭✭✭Capricas_Kirito wrote: »Just Curious...
Who's idea was it to run a test during the middle of an event? Planned for months Who thinks it is a smart decision to shut down the servers for several hours during said event? Planned for months And why is it that every time something focused around PvP comes around non-PvPers get completely shafted while the opposite is not true?
10 years. PvP has been waiting 10 years for the devs to acknowledge 1 bug. One.
I really love the PvE community; however, we need almost no armor or resources to PvE and can essentially play ESO for years. PvP is the engine of the game. PvP demands flowers from PvE every few minutes.
"O divine art of subtlety and secrecy!
Through you we learn to be invisible, through you inaudible; and hence we can hold the enemy’s fate in our hands.” – Ch. VI, v. 8-9. — Master Sun Tzu
"You haven't beaten me you've sacrificed sure footing for a killing stroke." — Ra's al Ghul
He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious — Master Sun Tzu
LoS2 -
Sluggy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Capricas_Kirito wrote: »Just Curious...
Who's idea was it to run a test during the middle of an event? Who thinks it is a smart decision to shut down the servers for several hours during said event? And why is it that every time something focused around PvP comes around non-PvPers get completely shafted while the opposite is not true?
I kind of agree with this state but in reverse. If they want people in there like last time, it'd be best if nothing else was going on in the game. This draws attention away. Attention from the crowd that otherwise would be mostly likely to try it out.0 -
ForumBully✭✭✭✭✭
✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
That's where I'm at. I haven't played in a couple of years and have no interest in Cyrodiil as it is on live. I'd love to get into subclassing but the idea of going back into that mess...I just can't.
Looking forward to a week online with Vengeance though, and the iterations to come. In between those iterations, there's nothing left for me in ESO PvP.3 -
Cellithor✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
It's right on point still because playing around Rushing Agony is about as much fun as commuting through 3 hours of rush hour traffic, and fun is what I'm paying for. The new subclass Rushing Agony build combos a fear stun into Colossus ult, you must counter within the split second they become visible, trying to block gets you stunned and instakilled.And while there are counters (yes, even to ball groups—have you tried just blocking the bleep pull?), that’s beside the point right now.
That's my problem. Stuff like this is ridiculous. It's just not fun to play against all of these gimmicky proc builds and then feeling like you have to play on one just to combat it. Not to mention ball groups stacking as many HOTs as they can, only able to be destroyed by another, better ball group. No, playing against these things is not fun - win or lose - the experience of engaging in fights that play out with non stop proc gimmicks and/or heal stacking is simply not a fun experience, no matter the outcome.
(P.S. As a newer pain point, I am also hating playing against the sheer amount of combat pets people are cramming into their builds now with subclassing. Annoying, not fun.)
And I get it, the game should reward good build crafting and good organized group play, but there is a degree to which cracked builds and overpowered group heal stacking is absolutely outshining raw skill altogether and it needs to be brought in line somehow.
Edited by Cellithor on June 30, 2025 2:55PM11 -
Sluggy✭✭✭✭✭
✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Yeah, I couldn't even go back after the last test. Even in its extremely limited form I found it was preferable. I think I spent about thirty minutes in live and after it was restored and haven't played since.Edited by Sluggy on June 30, 2025 3:02PM3 -
Heymexa✭✭✭Normal companies are disconnected again, for the sake of a "test". Why do I pay for "ESO Plus"?Edited by Heymexa on June 30, 2025 3:11PM2
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LadyGP✭✭✭✭✭
✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
It's right on point still because playing around Rushing Agony is about as much fun as commuting through 3 hours of rush hour traffic, and fun is what I'm paying for. The new subclass Rushing Agony build combos a fear stun into Colossus ult, you must counter within the split second they become visible, trying to block gets you stunned and instakilled.And while there are counters (yes, even to ball groups—have you tried just blocking the bleep pull?), that’s beside the point right now.
That's my problem. Stuff like this is ridiculous. It's just not fun to play against all of these gimmicky proc builds and then feeling like you have to play on one just to combat it. Not to mention ball groups stacking as many HOTs as they can, only able to be destroyed by another, better ball group. No, playing against these things is not fun - win or lose - the experience of engaging in fights that play out with non stop proc gimmicks and/or heal stacking is simply not a fun experience, no matter the outcome.
And I get it, the game should reward good build crafting and good organized group play, but there is a degree to which cracked builds and overpowered group heal stacking is absolutely outshining raw skill altogether and it needs to be brought in line somehow.
They tried the no proc campaign and... no one played it really (not enough for there to be any long lasting fights anyways.
You also benifit from out of group hot stacking - you realize this right? And they won't adjust hot stacking unless they finally decide to use battlespirit or something so they can tune PvE differently from PvP.
Now, should hot stacking (and shield stacking which no one really ever talks about for some reason but it's just as big if not bigger of an issue than hot stacking) be turned or have a cap to it - absolutely.
Does rush of agony perform terribly under heavy lag situations - absolutely.
Vengeance, IMO, is the route they are going that will ultimately solve these issues. I think they are going to keep reworking skill lines. Once they have most if not all the skill lines reworked/tested they will look at the data and see if the first test was a fluke or is it a proven concept that dramatically simplifying the math going I/O of the client/server = significantly improved performance.
Assuming this theory is proven - then the floodgates will open. I wouldn't be shocked if they utilized battle spirit (or implemented something similar) that would allow them to balance pvp and pve differently. I would fully expect to see healing caps and AoE caps in general. I'd expect to see some of the pull sets altered (rush needs to give people immunity after being pulled... period... and shield stacking needs a cap.
Ball groups aren't going anywhere so embrace it - BUT that doesn't mean things like heal stacking and shields won't be touched - I fully expect them to be reduced.. thus making ball groups easier to fight.LadyGP/xCatGuy
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TheMajority✭✭✭✭✭
✭So are quest disabled again? Because last time was boring and impeeded my progress with tokens and stuffTime flies like an arrow- but fruit flies like a banana.
Sorry for my English, I do not always have a translation tool available. Thank you for your patience with our conversation and working towards our mutual understanding of the topic.1 -
LadyGP✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheMajority wrote: »So are quest disabled again? Because last time was boring and impeeded my progress with tokens and stuff
I'd be shocked if quests were enabled. I think the servers are coming back up soon.. I can check.
So the starter quests are there for people who have never been to cyro but things like boards, town quest, etc, those are not.Edited by LadyGP on June 30, 2025 3:24PMLadyGP/xCatGuy
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ztomas1✭✭Wait so is this Vengeance campaign going to be the ONLY campaign in the game going forward, or is this temporary?0
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ZOS_KevinCommunity ManagerWait so is this Vengeance campaign going to be the ONLY campaign in the game going forward, or is this temporary?
This is temporary. The test will be around for about a week. Then regular Cryodiil will come back.Community Manager for ZeniMax Online Studio and Elder Scrolls OnlineDev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter0 -
Four_Fingers✭✭✭✭✭
✭Should have at least left the under 50 campaign up.
It is chaos on PS5 right now. lol
We are way outnumbered by AD, I guess that is how this is going to work.Edited by Four_Fingers on June 30, 2025 3:50PM0 -
LadyGP✭✭✭✭✭
✭OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »How do I prepare for this new campaign?
Simple queue up for Cyro (Vengance campaign) and then as soon as you enter there will be an NPC standing right in front of you with a quest. Accept it (if you've been in cyro before it won't do anything).Four_Fingers wrote: »Should have at least left the under 50 campaign up.
It is chaos on PS5 right now. lol
We are way outnumbered by AD, I guess that is how this is going to work.
This is exactly the point of the test... as many people in as small (and also as many big fights across the map) as possible at one time so they can measure server stability.LadyGP/xCatGuy
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Four_Fingers✭✭✭✭✭
✭More people are leaving than joining on console after they see it though.
The alliances are too imbalanced.
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LadyGP✭✭✭✭✭
✭Four_Fingers wrote: »More people are leaving than joining on console after they see it though.
The alliances are too imbalanced.
Give it time... it's only 1PM EST. 7PM tonight will be absolutely wild (in a good way)
Again, this is a test. If you play with the mindset of combat/skill... then you're setting yourself up to be miserable. Think of it from a "how is server stability/performance in these massive fights" and you're mind will be blown.
Here is your puff of copium.LadyGP/xCatGuy
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Four_Fingers✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have been here since Beta, I know how large-scale fights without lag are supposed to be, and this isn't it.2 -
LadyGP✭✭✭✭✭
✭Four_Fingers wrote: »I have been here since Beta, I know how large-scale fights without lag are supposed to be, and this isn't it.
Same.
And this isn't what the end goal of cyro is going to be. Why do you keep dismissing that point. Where have they said, literally anywhere show me one post, where they said this test IN IT'S CURRENT STATE is what cyro will be when they are done with these tests.
Show me one.
I'll show you 20 different posts where they are very direct in saying this will NOT be what cyro becomes - they just did this for time sake to prove a theory (less math from skills = better server stability).
It's not a hard concept to understand. I guess for people who have never written a line of code in their life it may be (not saying that is you just a general statement) but for those who know how agile works... how just development in general works... this is pretty standard.
You're not having fun - cool - the purpose of this test wasn't to test "fun" it was to tests "does less math from skills = better server stability". It's literally that basic.Edited by LadyGP on June 30, 2025 6:05PMLadyGP/xCatGuy
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Four_Fingers✭✭✭✭✭
✭What people are saying is that they don't completely trust what ZOS says and it has been observed from the past that anything that gets this much work will probably get implemented.
One thing is for sure, my ultimate would not fire at all during my first big vengeance battle and skills often didn't fire first time as well. So at least I am giving them test data. lol
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CatoUnchained✭✭✭✭✭Four_Fingers wrote: »I have been here since Beta, I know how large-scale fights without lag are supposed to be, and this isn't it.
Same.
And this isn't what the end goal of cyro is going to be. Why do you keep dismissing that point. Where have they said, literally anywhere show me one post, where they said this test IN IT'S CURRENT STATE is what cyro will be when they are done with these tests.
Show me one.
I'll show you 20 different posts where they are very direct in saying this will NOT be what cyro becomes - they just did this for time sake to prove a theory (less math from skills = better server stability).
It's not a hard concept to understand. I guess for people who have never written a line of code in their life it may be (not saying that is you just a general statement) but for those who know how agile works... how just development in general works... this is pretty standard.
You're not having fun - cool - the purpose of this test wasn't to test "fun" it was to tests "does less math from skills = better server stability". It's literally that basic.
Your faith is misplaced. Have to judge by what they do not what they say.
Edited by CatoUnchained on June 30, 2025 7:12PM1 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Vengeance appears to be in active development, unlike Live Cyrodiil.I'll show you 20 different posts where they are very direct in saying this will NOT be what cyro becomes
I guess for people who have never written a line of code in their life
You don't need to be a coder to understand that Live Cyrodiil isn't just one or two silver bullets away.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || RIP old PvP build system || bring Vengeance0 -
TheMajority✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheMajority wrote: »So are quest disabled again? Because last time was boring and impeeded my progress with tokens and stuff
I'd be shocked if quests were enabled. I think the servers are coming back up soon.. I can check.
So the starter quests are there for people who have never been to cyro but things like boards, town quest, etc, those are not.
Thats unfortunate, looks like I can't work on any Cyrodiil goals then. That probably means achievement is not active as wellTime flies like an arrow- but fruit flies like a banana.
Sorry for my English, I do not always have a translation tool available. Thank you for your patience with our conversation and working towards our mutual understanding of the topic.0 -
LadyGP✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheMajority wrote: »TheMajority wrote: »So are quest disabled again? Because last time was boring and impeeded my progress with tokens and stuff
I'd be shocked if quests were enabled. I think the servers are coming back up soon.. I can check.
So the starter quests are there for people who have never been to cyro but things like boards, town quest, etc, those are not.
Thats unfortunate, looks like I can't work on any Cyrodiil goals then. That probably means achievement is not active as well
Thats a good question that I honestly don't know the answer to.
All the info about the test can be found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/679844/vengeance-test-faq-pc-june-30-through-july-8-console-june-30-through-july-9#latestLadyGP/xCatGuy
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ztomas1✭✭So now there's gonna be a round 3 of the Vengeance campaign?? Is there going to be a new round every week ?0
