Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

I don't think the game balance is broken.

Just today I ran Scalecaller Peak with my yet unfinished Necromancer "Dark Knight" (subbed Aedric Spear and Shadow), because I am still levelling her. And I had three(!) Arcanists in my run. A healer, a tank and a DD.

On two Bosses I was doing two thirds of the DPS and on one even 80% 🤯
On the second to last Boss, the Plague Concocter Mortieau, they had a combined 20k DPS, because I was doing the rest. It's pretty straight forward. CMX gives you your own dps and your group's total.

... 20 ... k ... combined.

But Arcanist is supposedly broken?

I mean, I agree that Arc has low hurdles for high damage, but I disagree that Arcs are broken, let alone beyond repair.
I think there is a large amount of players who do not take the time to learn and practise. And that is what was originally promoting Oakensoul HA Sorcs and after that Arcanists.
Players do not have the time, so they take the fastest route to success.

I also think that there is this sort of feeling of having to comply to certain expectations. Those who fear being rejected, will play Arcanist to avoid getting into exactly that situation. It's just my personal opinion, but it would explain a lot that I have seen in game and talked about with guildies and friends on Discord.

Surely there is a better argument for your perspective than: "A random Arcanist did badly in a dungeon today. Hence game balance isn't broken."

sarahthes wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

I don't think the game balance is broken.

Just today I ran Scalecaller Peak with my yet unfinished Necromancer "Dark Knight" (subbed Aedric Spear and Shadow), because I am still levelling her. And I had three(!) Arcanists in my run. A healer, a tank and a DD.

On two Bosses I was doing two thirds of the DPS and on one even 80% 🤯
On the second to last Boss, the Plague Concocter Mortieau, they had a combined 20k DPS, because I was doing the rest. It's pretty straight forward. CMX gives you your own dps and your group's total.

... 20 ... k ... combined.

But Arcanist is supposedly broken?

I mean, I agree that Arc has low hurdles for high damage, but I disagree that Arcs are broken, let alone beyond repair.
I think there is a large amount of players who do not take the time to learn and practise. And that is what was originally promoting Oakensoul HA Sorcs and after that Arcanists.
Players do not have the time, so they take the fastest route to success.

I also think that there is this sort of feeling of having to comply to certain expectations. Those who fear being rejected, will play Arcanist to avoid getting into exactly that situation. It's just my personal opinion, but it would explain a lot that I have seen in game and talked about with guildies and friends on Discord.

Surely there is a better argument for your perspective than: "A random Arcanist did badly in a dungeon today. Hence game balance isn't broken."

Idk there's a lot of people out there who have told me the class is so OP it's not possible to play an arcanist badly.

And you yourself cannot imagine anyone - perhaps a complete novice to the game - playing an Arcanist badly? Well, no point arguing in the face of such overwhelming evidence :-P

The game balance is *always* broken, it's constantly lurching from one OP to hammer nerf to the OP rinse repeat. Get used to it.

ImmortalCX wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

It's going to pretty much be most builds at this point. I threw together a pet heavy attack build last night, still missing some passives in the new skill lines, and the build did 88K for me on an unfamiliar rotation. I expect it to pass 100K once I have passives and familiarity with the rotation. And this build is very unoptimized in favor of just having max pets. The heavy attack build pre-patch was doing ~75k.

A truly optimized build is going to do far, far more than that.

I haven't even thought about subclassing because I thought it would just be another minor boost. But stacking skills for the passives and using an OP spammable just means everything is a faceroll one button build now.

I only have a vague idea of the specifics, but I am guessing that most classes have a dps skill line with major passive boosts. So instead of getting passives from that skill line (and maybe fighters/undaunted/mages) they are also getting the passives from other class dps skill lines.

Leeching strikes on a high health tank is busted as hell. I use it plus bone golaith transformation

I'm going to break down what exactly makes arcanist OP in this current meta, because it absolutely is OP. This is from PvE endgame perspective, though everything I say here also applies to non-endgame PvE content.

So, what makes it OP? Right now it's the only class with sufficient cleave damage. Last patch other classes could compete and outperform arcanist, but ALL other classes heavily crutched on Azureblight to carry their AoE damage. Arcanist could also use it, but it wasn't nearly as good as on other classes. We can see this if we look at the damage done on Bahsei for example, where DK was the most popular pick at the highest end of scorepushing. (source, logs of the highest score run: https://www.esologs.com/reports/a:4pLaFrHk7TMh9GJg)


This is the last patch's class distribution in Rockgrove HM


This is what it is right now on live

I know that the sample size is much smaller since the patch is relatively new, but this is the least biased data point I could find, as Ossein Cage is insanely arcanist favoured by design, where 95% of the players are on arcanist.


No other class has even close to the extended AoE capabilities as arcanist without Azureblight, since all the DoTs got nuked in U35 before arcanist was even released. Direct damage sources such as Whirling Blades and Blastbones don't even come close to the effectiveness of the beam. You need DoTs to complement the damage, and the more DoTs you cast the less you will be casting your direct damage attacks. Meanwhile on arcanist you can just beam and keep up a single uptime on your backbar and you will outperform other classes. Since they effectively removed Azureblight from the game, arcanist would be by far the strongest class even without subclassing, because no other class could keep with the AoE damage.

Then there is subclassing. Arcanist is by far the best one to utilize subclassing, because they have all their offensive skills and passives a single skill line, meaning that you can take two other skill lines with absolutely no cost. Compare that to DK, if you want to keep the main damage line on DK (Ardent Flame), you will have to drop Eruption, Burning Talons and Deep Breath, all of which are AoE abilities, contributing even further to the lack of AoE damage. Why wouldn't you keep these lines then? Because the passives are awful, one or two skills cannot compete versus a skill line with good skills and a full set of offensive passives, such as Herald of the Tome, Assassination, Grave Lord, Storm Calling, Aedric Spear etc.)
All other classes will have to give up some of their power to access subclassing, but arcanist doesn't.

Okay, then why is necromancer not as strong as arcanist? Necro also has all of it's offensive kit in one skill line (apart from Goliath, which is the highest damage ultimate in the game in certain situations, so it's quite a big loss). It's because all other classes have their power split amongst their skills (shocker). Even if you take Grave Lord, Assassination and Ardent Flame, you are not going to get the full power of necromancer, NB and DK combined, because you only have 10 skill slots and one GCD. This isn't the case with arcanist, the whole kit is built around the flail and beam. Those are the two skills you need, everything else is optional and you still get all of arcanist's damage. You can flood your skill bar with as many passive buffs from other classes and still get everything out of your original kit. On top of this arcanist has by far the best Class script of any class, which synergizes insanely well with Banner Bearer, which is the single strongest passive buff you can have. Once again, other classes don't have the bar space or sustain to get the same utility out of the skill. Languid Eye is also one of the best ultimates in the game, being cheap to cast, short duration so you can use it even if the boss is going to get moved soon, it's AoE and for some reason you can also recast it while beaming completely for free. Compare this to Standard of Might, which is also one of the strongest ultimates in the game, but it is expensive, it has a long duration, meaning that the boss can get moved out of it before you get your full value and it can't be moved. It's still extremely strong when utilized correctly, but it has some drawbacks.

Then we can get to the often overlooked part of arcanists kit, which is it the passives. Arcanist is the only class in the game with both penetration and crit damage in their passives. Those just happen to be the most important stats in terms of damage output. On top of that the amount of crit damage is 12%, which is 2% higher than any other class. This is quite minor, but just... why...? And even on top of that they get weapon and spell damage plus higher status effect chance and damage from passives. Why does this matter? With arcanist you can get to penetration and crit damage cap without any additional support sets, meaning that if you are not on arcanist, you will have to source the missing missing 12% and 2480 pen from somewhere else, which will take away from resources you would use on getting more damage, just to keep up with arcanist's passives. On top of all of this, arcanist loses the least when using Velothi, which is the only mythic worth using anymore on any class.

Yes, people on dummy have gotten higher numbers without using beam (though still using arcanist), but that has nothing to do with what's good in content. In content AoE is the most important thing and beam is by far the best skill for it right now. And no, arcanist beam builds do not have bad single target damage. They can even slot Radiant Glory/Oppression with minimal losses to AoE damage and have the best execute in the game.

What's the solution? The problem with just buffing other classes is that all buffs you do, arcanist will also have access to it because of subclassing. The balance changes would have to be made in a specific way just to make it as bad to use on arcanist as possible, and I can't really see how that would look in practise. The other classes' skill lines need to be rearranged. Let's use DK as an example. Burning Talons and Deep Breath are stuck in a skill line with tank passives... that skill line is just never going to be used, because even as a tank you don't want that skill line. Other classes will also need to have their passives buffed to keep up with what arcanist has. Again, DKs fire and poison damage buff. Which other class is going synergise with that when the only class flame skills I can think of are Flame skulls (Grave Lord) and Vampire's Bane (Dawn's Wrath) and poison being Subterranean Assault (Animal Companions)? Sure, the passive makes sense when you look at DKs kit as a whole where Eruption, Deep Breath and Burning Talons + everything on Ardent Flame are fire or poison damage, but after subclassing your own class's synergy with itself doesn't matter in the slightest.
So either they will have to buff every other class's AoE abilities in a magical way where arcanist cannot get use out of the buff, or they will have to come up with a set which significantly rewards the active use of abilities, but then we are in the same boat we were the last patch were all other builds and classes crutch on a single set to keep up with arcanist, or they could revert the Azureblight nerf, since arcanist can no longer utilize it, or they could just nerf arcanist...


TL;DR, arcanist is OP, even at the highest level of play in PvE. It's simply a class with no weaknesses.

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Last night did vet random and got spindleclutch.

After the first pull the tank left group. Then the healer left. I figured it had to do with the other DPS running ahead and just burning stuff down, after all vet spindleclutch is pretty easy.

I am CP900, the other dps was CP2000ish and he was doing a ton of damage so I thought we could clear it.

I am no slouch in vet content although my stamblade build is not meta, I do have good gear sets, stack crit, enchants and food. And I use all my cooldowns. In most vet dlc I am doing 45% of the damage +/- (unless a dps has queued as tank, in which case Im doing 30-35%) so I figure I am about average compared to other high-cp pug dps. In non vet I am usually doing 60-70%.

In last nights run, I was doing 30%, and the other dps was legit doing 70%. He had green beam. I don't know what class he was, he either had a taunt slotted or had an aoe that aggroed trash so I wasn't being targeted much. His companion was healing. ( I dont have a companion). He was a "do everything" build, he was holding aggro and doing 70% dps, and surviving no problem. And his rotation was simple, it was mostly green beam.

I think what has happened is that arcanist was OP to begin with, and now that class can pull in other skill line passives, it is completely OP. So much that you don't even have to respect dungeon roles any more.

I admit I don't know the specifics of his build, and it was very optimized, but I have never had an experience where I was completely outclassed on dps. I'm not hating on the other player, its just that this seems broken. I know I could go out and duplicate his build if I had the time/knowledge and farmed trial gear, but I'm not complaining about lack of balance so much as how power creep just breaks content.

I don't know how they can fix this.

Balance was totally broken before subclassing. This feels like ZOS is just giving up on even trying to build any balance into the game.

JJBoomer wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Arcanist dps needs a nerf

Can't have people having fun. Must suck that the only way to have fun is to take things away from. Others.

Well, it's more, "People should play how "I" play, because that's the right way." People choose to allow others to dictate how they play, then complain about it. They let people set the 'meta' and then follow it, and complain all the way. I have little patience for this type of mindset, which is why I play solo... I refuse to play someone else's way or allow them to dictate how I play mine. Ideas shared is great, but letting others dictate to you how to play the game, is not. People complain about difficulty, about things being easy, and then seek out the 'best build' to make the game easier. How is that fun? I don't get it.

JaxontheUnfortunate wrote: »

Yeah it’s not subclassing that is the big issue, it’s more the mentality that tanks and healers are not required.

Which is *eyeroll* fine - but if you don't need us, then use ur BIIIIG DPS to carry us so we can get our transmutes for all the trials sets we need for the healers for when they are needed; not just on our DPS chars. Thanks!

BananaBender wrote: »

I'm going to break down what exactly makes arcanist OP in this current meta, because it absolutely is OP. This is from PvE endgame perspective, though everything I say here also applies to non-endgame PvE content.

So, what makes it OP? Right now it's the only class with sufficient cleave damage. Last patch other classes could compete and outperform arcanist, but ALL other classes heavily crutched on Azureblight to carry their AoE damage. Arcanist could also use it, but it wasn't nearly as good as on other classes. We can see this if we look at the damage done on Bahsei for example, where DK was the most popular pick at the highest end of scorepushing. (source, logs of the highest score run: https://www.esologs.com/reports/a:4pLaFrHk7TMh9GJg)


This is the last patch's class distribution in Rockgrove HM


This is what it is right now on live

I know that the sample size is much smaller since the patch is relatively new, but this is the least biased data point I could find, as Ossein Cage is insanely arcanist favoured by design, where 95% of the players are on arcanist.


No other class has even close to the extended AoE capabilities as arcanist without Azureblight, since all the DoTs got nuked in U35 before arcanist was even released. Direct damage sources such as Whirling Blades and Blastbones don't even come close to the effectiveness of the beam. You need DoTs to complement the damage, and the more DoTs you cast the less you will be casting your direct damage attacks. Meanwhile on arcanist you can just beam and keep up a single uptime on your backbar and you will outperform other classes. Since they effectively removed Azureblight from the game, arcanist would be by far the strongest class even without subclassing, because no other class could keep with the AoE damage.

Then there is subclassing. Arcanist is by far the best one to utilize subclassing, because they have all their offensive skills and passives a single skill line, meaning that you can take two other skill lines with absolutely no cost. Compare that to DK, if you want to keep the main damage line on DK (Ardent Flame), you will have to drop Eruption, Burning Talons and Deep Breath, all of which are AoE abilities, contributing even further to the lack of AoE damage. Why wouldn't you keep these lines then? Because the passives are awful, one or two skills cannot compete versus a skill line with good skills and a full set of offensive passives, such as Herald of the Tome, Assassination, Grave Lord, Storm Calling, Aedric Spear etc.)
All other classes will have to give up some of their power to access subclassing, but arcanist doesn't.

Okay, then why is necromancer not as strong as arcanist? Necro also has all of it's offensive kit in one skill line (apart from Goliath, which is the highest damage ultimate in the game in certain situations, so it's quite a big loss). It's because all other classes have their power split amongst their skills (shocker). Even if you take Grave Lord, Assassination and Ardent Flame, you are not going to get the full power of necromancer, NB and DK combined, because you only have 10 skill slots and one GCD. This isn't the case with arcanist, the whole kit is built around the flail and beam. Those are the two skills you need, everything else is optional and you still get all of arcanist's damage. You can flood your skill bar with as many passive buffs from other classes and still get everything out of your original kit. On top of this arcanist has by far the best Class script of any class, which synergizes insanely well with Banner Bearer, which is the single strongest passive buff you can have. Once again, other classes don't have the bar space or sustain to get the same utility out of the skill. Languid Eye is also one of the best ultimates in the game, being cheap to cast, short duration so you can use it even if the boss is going to get moved soon, it's AoE and for some reason you can also recast it while beaming completely for free. Compare this to Standard of Might, which is also one of the strongest ultimates in the game, but it is expensive, it has a long duration, meaning that the boss can get moved out of it before you get your full value and it can't be moved. It's still extremely strong when utilized correctly, but it has some drawbacks.

Then we can get to the often overlooked part of arcanists kit, which is it the passives. Arcanist is the only class in the game with both penetration and crit damage in their passives. Those just happen to be the most important stats in terms of damage output. On top of that the amount of crit damage is 12%, which is 2% higher than any other class. This is quite minor, but just... why...? And even on top of that they get weapon and spell damage plus higher status effect chance and damage from passives. Why does this matter? With arcanist you can get to penetration and crit damage cap without any additional support sets, meaning that if you are not on arcanist, you will have to source the missing missing 12% and 2480 pen from somewhere else, which will take away from resources you would use on getting more damage, just to keep up with arcanist's passives. On top of all of this, arcanist loses the least when using Velothi, which is the only mythic worth using anymore on any class.

Yes, people on dummy have gotten higher numbers without using beam (though still using arcanist), but that has nothing to do with what's good in content. In content AoE is the most important thing and beam is by far the best skill for it right now. And no, arcanist beam builds do not have bad single target damage. They can even slot Radiant Glory/Oppression with minimal losses to AoE damage and have the best execute in the game.

What's the solution? The problem with just buffing other classes is that all buffs you do, arcanist will also have access to it because of subclassing. The balance changes would have to be made in a specific way just to make it as bad to use on arcanist as possible, and I can't really see how that would look in practise. The other classes' skill lines need to be rearranged. Let's use DK as an example. Burning Talons and Deep Breath are stuck in a skill line with tank passives... that skill line is just never going to be used, because even as a tank you don't want that skill line. Other classes will also need to have their passives buffed to keep up with what arcanist has. Again, DKs fire and poison damage buff. Which other class is going synergise with that when the only class flame skills I can think of are Flame skulls (Grave Lord) and Vampire's Bane (Dawn's Wrath) and poison being Subterranean Assault (Animal Companions)? Sure, the passive makes sense when you look at DKs kit as a whole where Eruption, Deep Breath and Burning Talons + everything on Ardent Flame are fire or poison damage, but after subclassing your own class's synergy with itself doesn't matter in the slightest.
So either they will have to buff every other class's AoE abilities in a magical way where arcanist cannot get use out of the buff, or they will have to come up with a set which significantly rewards the active use of abilities, but then we are in the same boat we were the last patch were all other builds and classes crutch on a single set to keep up with arcanist, or they could revert the Azureblight nerf, since arcanist can no longer utilize it, or they could just nerf arcanist...


TL;DR, arcanist is OP, even at the highest level of play in PvE. It's simply a class with no weaknesses.

Imagine if only a fraction of the logic in this post was applied by the Devs. Instead, we get empty words like:


People were pointing out some of this stuff before it was even in the Patch Notes, when it was still datamined info, yet somehow the Devs seem totally oblivious to this.