When people get proven they're correct....

AngryPenguin · June 15

Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

this game is a business and has obviously been run as a business, not a labor of love. That being said ive always though that zos's combat and dungeon/trial design has always been a major disconnect for the majority of its skyrim casual player base. Not just this game either. All the mmos are stuck in the same rut.

zos would just make it easier because thats the road of lowest effort but mmos are stagnant because they have not been able to successfully improve the gameplay to a point where its actually favorable to be in the company of other people. Thus the modern trend of soloing in mmos, defeating the purpose of its own existence. People are tired of people. These games need to do alot more to make that go the other way.

their new mmo will suffer the same fate if they do the same things.

people are mostly here and still here, for elder scrolls. if Zos treats their new MMO project in the same way they treat ESO i dont expect the MMO to last more than a couple months.

Everyone I know including myself will never invest in another ZOS product if they can't or fail to follow through on all the commitments they've made to the ESO player base, most specifically in regards to fixing PvP. The customer service reps will still be the same people on staff for ESO, so nothing will change there. And they'll still have the same forum managers, so nothing will change there either. In other words, ZOS will expect to be able to maintain their same kind of relationship with their customers and still expect them to fork over what are uncommonly large price tags for less content than other studios are putting out.

I think this is the biggest limiting factor regarding ZOS' future in the industry. That's why, in my view, ZOS' lack of attention to ESO today is so inexplicable to me. The new MMO will still be the same devs, same customer service model etc. So how would their new MMO be any different than ESO in the ways that matter most?

tomofhyrule · June 15

ADarklore wrote: »

All of these "I unsubscribed" posts... and then wonder why ZOS leans towards it's most profitable players... solo/casual players who enjoy housing and buying things from the store, than endgame or PvP.

ZOS said years ago that ESO+ doesn't pay the bills, hence the emphasis on the crown store and other money-making ventures that people say are 'money grabs'. ZOS is a 'for profit' company that needs to continuously make money to justify further development of the game. So if endgame and PvP players aren't spending money on the crown store, aren't buying houses or crates, then they aren't a profitable aspect of the game... and in fact, could be considered more of a drain on resources. You have to look at it from a business perspective... why would you continuously develop and add content specifically for groups that do not help your bottom line?

So next time someone posts about how THEY don't like the focus of the game, they need to ask themselves how much they've spent in the store the past year, and the previous years? Because that's exactly what ZOS is looking at, from a business perspective.

This really sounds like a great argument for ZOS to stop focusing so hard on the solo players and to start focusing harder on the endgame base to get them to come back... and spend more. After all, if one group is guaranteed to give money regardless and another will only give money if they get what they want, when the logical thing would be to cater to the flighty ones so you get their money since you will get the money from the other people no matter what.

After all, anyone who's ever been to Cyrodiil knows that all of the Radiant Apex mounts are all running around there. Most of your hardcore housingmancers will only leave the house to run trial trifectas. Those are big markets.

Besides, when (if) TES6 ever releases, who do we expect will still come back to ESO regularly? The solo TES players, who now have a brand new world to get absorbed into and ignore everything else (especially since the solo games by nature will be better solo p-layer experiences). Or the players who have friend groups in ESO who are still wanting to run around Tamriel together since they can't get their PvP or group-content fix from a solo RPG?

Rkindaleft · June 15

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

this game is a business and has obviously been run as a business, not a labor of love. That being said ive always though that zos's combat and dungeon/trial design has always been a major disconnect for the majority of its skyrim casual player base. Not just this game either. All the mmos are stuck in the same rut.

zos would just make it easier because thats the road of lowest effort but mmos are stagnant because they have not been able to successfully improve the gameplay to a point where its actually favorable to be in the company of other people. Thus the modern trend of soloing in mmos, defeating the purpose of its own existence. People are tired of people. These games need to do alot more to make that go the other way.

their new mmo will suffer the same fate if they do the same things.

people are mostly here and still here, for elder scrolls. if Zos treats their new MMO project in the same way they treat ESO i dont expect the MMO to last more than a couple months.

Everyone I know including myself will never invest in another ZOS product if they can't or fail to follow through on all the commitments they've made to the ESO player base, most specifically in regards to fixing PvP. The customer service reps will still be the same people on staff for ESO, so nothing will change there. And they'll still have the same forum managers, so nothing will change there either. In other words, ZOS will expect to be able to maintain their same kind of relationship with their customers and still expect them to fork over what are uncommonly large price tags for less content than other studios are putting out.

I think this is the biggest limiting factor regarding ZOS' future in the industry. That's why, in my view, ZOS' lack of attention to ESO today is so inexplicable to me. The new MMO will still be the same devs, same customer service model etc. So how would their new MMO be any different than ESO in the ways that matter most?

Adding on to this, one of the biggest issues is that ZOS have said countless times they will "work on improving communication" - to which in some extent they have, ever since Kevin was hired there has been more developer appearances on the forum and he does pop into a lot of threads, but therein lies the problem that the communication doesn't really get improved in ways people actually care about.

For some examples, how many posts were made about Grave Lord's Sacrifice since it got it's rework over a year ago, when it was explicitly stated that they would be keeping an eye on this skill and make further adjustments. No developer acknowledgement in any thread in over a year.

How many posts have been made about the Castle Thorn circle bug? Rich Lambert confirmed the bug on a livestream years ago, no developer acknowledgement in any thread for the past 4 years despite it being reported in game and on the forums hundreds (or thousands) of times and by a dev in a livestream - how is it even physically possible to go unaddressed for THAT long?

Grim Focus permaglow. Templar jabs rework. Update 35 Q&A. Unfinished hybridization. Rush of Agony. These never got responded to. There are many more examples.

PTS section is basically a black hole of feedback, hundreds of people reported the Corpse generation/blastbones bug back in April and it took them to live to even acknowledge there was a problem. Reporting anything bug related seems totally pointless because it seems like 90% of bugs on PTS end up making it live anyway. They didn't address concerns about Subclassing balance. Getting responses to anything feels like you're just talking to a wall.

Even doing the Q&As feels like a waste of time because it's obvious to anyone who watches them that they purposefully cherry-pick questions in order to avoid having to answer the difficult ones - which are the ones people actually want answers to.

Udrath · June 15

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it.

Udrath wrote: »

Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings

...

I’m assuming you didn’t pvp then, so it does sound wild, but I was just listing one example because I am not going spend my time listing every stamina/magicka class I played and their signature strengths from years ago.

Udrath · June 15

Sylosi wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it.

Udrath wrote: »

Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings

...

LOL..you once again cherry pick a post and misquote them. This is literally called propaganda as in you are twisting what is being said by your inference of hypocrisy by the author you quoted.

This is the actual quote by @Udrath. I have bolded the imporant part you left out.

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it. Classes used to feel good. Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings, but one good melee could come up and kill me. Back then it felt like each class had strengths and weaknesses, but now pvp just isn’t that fun because there are no significant abilities like that between each class archetype (stamina/magicka), and eventually classes will end up all playing the same in time with subclassing.

It is still laughable even with the full quote for two reasons.

Firstly hard-counters in a supposed "skilled" action combat game are terrible design, entirely contrary to the notion of skilled action combat, may as well go play a card game if I want hard counters. What you want is soft counters, where classes / builds have advantages / weaknesses, but where those advantages / weakness can still be overcome by playing well or get punished for playing badly.

Second his comparison is massively lop sided, he stands 1v20 spamming his hard counter, but that is supposed to be offset because one good melee might kill him, in what reality is that "balanced". It still comes across as someone who was fine when "balance" was heavily in his favour, but doesn't like it now he can't 1 v 20 crutching on a broken hard counter.

PvP balance was always trash in this game, which is precisely why if you played earlier in the game there were DKs everywhere, immune to ranged builds, yet still silly strong in melee. Or why Sorcs / NBs were so common for so many years in this game, because aside from them actually being very strong in terms of combat much of the time, they both broke risk vs reward by being able to easily disengage if they were losing (so zero balance breaking the most fundamental rule of PvP design - risk vs reward). Again players flock to the busted stuff this game has always had, the only good balance this game has ever had is the balance some see through their rose-tinted spectacles.

Which of course is one of the reasons PvP has been so unsuccessful in this game, even by the low standard of MMORPGs.

Every class had a significant crutch and they were all situational or dependent on something for them to shine and I was just listing one example. All I am suggesting is that classes were better balanced then, than now, and the only thing they needed to fix was the lag in my opinion. And when I say ‘then’ I mean Morrowind through Elsweyr.

freespirit · June 15

Regardless of the negativity in this thread and tbh these forums in general.......

Some of us still really enjoy ESO, maybe I'm lucky in that I'm in two guilds that have recently(last year) celebrated their tenth Birthday!!

I have a great community to enjoy the game with, we have fun, we do stuff together and we respect each other's opinions!

This is to a large part because our GM's tirelessly work to give us the best information they can, at this point I will give a shout out to @Balastar and @TazMazter who do so much work with often little appreciation!!

They are by no means the only people who work hard for their guilds, we should always remember guild related stuff doesn't just "happen" it requires effort to make it so!!

You don't like the game's direction, well fair enough, however I often point people to these forums for information and a lot of people don't even know they exist!

I feel we are seeing here the disgruntled player all too often, whilst actually there are many happy players who really don't need to see this negativity or even know it exists!!

I remember with hilarity the fact that according to reviews and player opinion ESO was dying in 2014!

NoSoup · June 15

IRL what I'm observing is actually different, players that haven't played in 2 - 3 yrs have started returning over the last couple of weeks.

Thysbe · June 16

freespirit wrote: »

I feel we are seeing here the disgruntled player all too often, whilst actually there are many happy players who really don't need to see this negativity or even know it exists!!

I rather take the few available data than some "wishful feelings":

Steam reviews for the season pass are really really bad and thats from people who were actually motivated enough to buy the Season Pass. SO no, it´s not only disgruntled forum users. The main reason for the bad reviews is not so much the content itself but the daring price of 50 EUR which is the same as for Clair Obscure or Oblivion Remastered....

Experience from my bubble: we had people queuing to get a spot in our vet farm trial runs the last chapters we hardly could fill the roster for 2 evenings after content drop. Interest is kind of non-existent.

My recommendation for ZOS would be to start focusing on long-term veteran players and the game initial strenghts again instead of half-baked wild rides like subclassing and most of all to rethink their pricings for content pass. Especially in regards to ESO+ players. For someone handing you over the price of almost 2 AAA games charging another 50 EUR for the pass is simply outragous pricing. The backlash for that will sooner or later come.

Rungar · June 16

i do think they hurt themselves with the pricing. #500+ in top sellers means they didnt sell many copies on steam ( meanwhile the game itself was like #20 for a bit). I think your wrong though. The game still has the same number of players playing as it always has so im guessing subclasssing is somewhat popular.

The game has literally lived by appealing to new players. Every chapter is designed to be completed day 1 by level 1 characters. Now that they have no more chapters i think the only route is to update obsolete and unpopular game mechanics like combat and dungeons to try to appeal to new blood ( who have 10 years of content ahead of them) in a different way.

doubling down on obsolete content model like their linear dungeons and trials wont work. Nobody buys the dlc dungeons or does the trials now.

MISTFORMBZZZ · June 16

Thysbe wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

I feel we are seeing here the disgruntled player all too often, whilst actually there are many happy players who really don't need to see this negativity or even know it exists!!

I rather take the few available data than some "wishful feelings":

Steam reviews for the season pass are really really bad and thats from people who were actually motivated enough to buy the Season Pass. SO no, it´s not only disgruntled forum users. The main reason for the bad reviews is not so much the content itself but the daring price of 50 EUR which is the same as for Clair Obscure or Oblivion Remastered....

Experience from my bubble: we had people queuing to get a spot in our vet farm trial runs the last chapters we hardly could fill the roster for 2 evenings after content drop. Interest is kind of non-existent.

My recommendation for ZOS would be to start focusing on long-term veteran players and the game initial strenghts again instead of half-baked wild rides like subclassing and most of all to rethink their pricings for content pass. Especially in regards to ESO+ players. For someone handing you over the price of almost 2 AAA games charging another 50 EUR for the pass is simply outragous pricing. The backlash for that will sooner or later come.

The backlash already started lmao. While PC players might dont feel it yet, luckily for them - some of the console servers are already empty, speaking for PS EU and Xbox EU

moderatelyfatman · June 16

@Thysbe
OUCH!
Just when I start to think I'm a Negative Nelly some hard data comes along to confirm my views.

Pixiepumpkin · June 16

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

@Thysbe
OUCH!
Just when I start to think I'm a Negative Nelly some hard data comes along to confirm my views.

Naa, it's not even being negative. Those who assert that "unhappy" customers are "negative" do not understand that pointing out flaws or issues in design are not negative traits, they are literally part of a design process in finding the best solution to pexisting problems or problems that will arise from certain decisions.

reazea · June 16

It's the no shame aspect of ZOS customer service, of which the "mods" are a part, that is so off-putting for me. The thread the OP points to is a perfect example why ZOS has such customer service relation issues.

Elvenheart · June 16

fizzybeef wrote: »

Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

this game is a business and has obviously been run as a business, not a labor of love. That being said ive always though that zos's combat and dungeon/trial design has always been a major disconnect for the majority of its skyrim casual player base. Not just this game either. All the mmos are stuck in the same rut.

zos would just make it easier because thats the road of lowest effort but mmos are stagnant because they have not been able to successfully improve the gameplay to a point where its actually favorable to be in the company of other people. Thus the modern trend of soloing in mmos, defeating the purpose of its own existence. People are tired of people. These games need to do alot more to make that go the other way.

their new mmo will suffer the same fate if they do the same things.

people are mostly here and still here, for elder scrolls. if Zos treats their new MMO project in the same way they treat ESO i dont expect the MMO to last more than a couple months.

Everyone who plays their new mmo after the horrendous experience we made here is not to help anyway

What some may subjectively think is a horrendous experience (why are they even here if logging in is such a horrendous experience for them) others like myself continue to enjoy and go so far as to call it their favorite game. I would definitely give another MMO by ZOS a try if it’s a genre that I find appealing.

fizzybeef · June 16

Elvenheart wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

this game is a business and has obviously been run as a business, not a labor of love. That being said ive always though that zos's combat and dungeon/trial design has always been a major disconnect for the majority of its skyrim casual player base. Not just this game either. All the mmos are stuck in the same rut.

zos would just make it easier because thats the road of lowest effort but mmos are stagnant because they have not been able to successfully improve the gameplay to a point where its actually favorable to be in the company of other people. Thus the modern trend of soloing in mmos, defeating the purpose of its own existence. People are tired of people. These games need to do alot more to make that go the other way.

their new mmo will suffer the same fate if they do the same things.

people are mostly here and still here, for elder scrolls. if Zos treats their new MMO project in the same way they treat ESO i dont expect the MMO to last more than a couple months.

Everyone who plays their new mmo after the horrendous experience we made here is not to help anyway

What some may subjectively think is a horrendous experience (why are they even here if logging in is such a horrendous experience for them) others like myself continue to enjoy and go so far as to call it their favorite game. I would definitely give another MMO by ZOS a try if it’s a genre that I find appealing.

We calling it a horrendous experience and still logging in because we know the good old days and hopeing for their return..
We all love this game, thats why we are the 1% who makes the effort and make threads or write comments.

But compared to how the game was a few years ago, its so bad now.
Glad you still enjoy it tho, hope you keep having fun

Elvenheart · June 16

fizzybeef wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

this game is a business and has obviously been run as a business, not a labor of love. That being said ive always though that zos's combat and dungeon/trial design has always been a major disconnect for the majority of its skyrim casual player base. Not just this game either. All the mmos are stuck in the same rut.

zos would just make it easier because thats the road of lowest effort but mmos are stagnant because they have not been able to successfully improve the gameplay to a point where its actually favorable to be in the company of other people. Thus the modern trend of soloing in mmos, defeating the purpose of its own existence. People are tired of people. These games need to do alot more to make that go the other way.

their new mmo will suffer the same fate if they do the same things.

people are mostly here and still here, for elder scrolls. if Zos treats their new MMO project in the same way they treat ESO i dont expect the MMO to last more than a couple months.

Everyone who plays their new mmo after the horrendous experience we made here is not to help anyway

What some may subjectively think is a horrendous experience (why are they even here if logging in is such a horrendous experience for them) others like myself continue to enjoy and go so far as to call it their favorite game. I would definitely give another MMO by ZOS a try if it’s a genre that I find appealing.

We calling it a horrendous experience and still logging in because we know the good old days and hopeing for their return..
We all love this game, thats why we are the 1% who makes the effort and make threads or write comments.

But compared to how the game was a few years ago, its so bad now.
Glad you still enjoy it tho, hope you keep having fun

Well, again this is just me, but there isn’t a game anyone has ever made that I would play if my playtime could be called a horrendous experience, no matter how much I ever enjoyed it in the past. I only have so much unknown time left on this Earth and I wouldn’t waste it by suffering through a horrendous experience day after day in the hopes that someday it MIGHT suddenly turn around and be the experience I want it to be.

Frayton · June 16

ADarklore wrote: »

All of these "I unsubscribed" posts... and then wonder why ZOS leans towards it's most profitable players... solo/casual players who enjoy housing and buying things from the store, than endgame or PvP.

I'm a solo/casual player and I don't buy anything from the crown store anymore. I don't buy the latest expansions anymore. I don't buy crowns or houses anymore. I don't buy subs anymore.

I've spent an embarrassing amount of money in the crown store and on subs across multiple accounts, so it's not just endgamers who are unhappy with the game.

Pixiepumpkin · June 16

Elvenheart wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

this game is a business and has obviously been run as a business, not a labor of love. That being said ive always though that zos's combat and dungeon/trial design has always been a major disconnect for the majority of its skyrim casual player base. Not just this game either. All the mmos are stuck in the same rut.

zos would just make it easier because thats the road of lowest effort but mmos are stagnant because they have not been able to successfully improve the gameplay to a point where its actually favorable to be in the company of other people. Thus the modern trend of soloing in mmos, defeating the purpose of its own existence. People are tired of people. These games need to do alot more to make that go the other way.

their new mmo will suffer the same fate if they do the same things.

people are mostly here and still here, for elder scrolls. if Zos treats their new MMO project in the same way they treat ESO i dont expect the MMO to last more than a couple months.

Everyone who plays their new mmo after the horrendous experience we made here is not to help anyway

What some may subjectively think is a horrendous experience (why are they even here if logging in is such a horrendous experience for them) others like myself continue to enjoy and go so far as to call it their favorite game. I would definitely give another MMO by ZOS a try if it’s a genre that I find appealing.

We calling it a horrendous experience and still logging in because we know the good old days and hopeing for their return..
We all love this game, thats why we are the 1% who makes the effort and make threads or write comments.

But compared to how the game was a few years ago, its so bad now.
Glad you still enjoy it tho, hope you keep having fun

Well, again this is just me, but there isn’t a game anyone has ever made that I would play if my playtime could be called a horrendous experience, no matter how much I ever enjoyed it in the past. I only have so much unknown time left on this Earth and I wouldn’t waste it by suffering through a horrendous experience day after day in the hopes that someday it MIGHT suddenly turn around and be the experience I want it to be.

Probably because out of any game most of these folks have played, this one has cost the most. Its a sunk cost fallacy issue. My family has easily spent close to 7k on this game. A cost so insanely high that 20 years of wow did not cost that much. Some of us want our moneys worth and right now, with U46 we did not get our moneys worth based on previous chapters and the amount and quality of the content created. So people/customers are rightfully upset because they did not get what they paid for based on a long standing precedent of what kind of content they would be receiving for the price. Especially not from a AAA studio.

If ESO did not have the crown store and stupidly high priced items and it was sub only. Then I don't think most folks would be as upset with 1 of the "chapters" failing to deliver. But when they have invested hundreds or thousdands to make the ESO experience the best it can be, only for the life to be cut short....well then ya, they are gonna be upset.

I am glad you are happy with 100% of the stuff ZOS makes. I personally find it a bit curious that they have the ability to tick all your boxers without fail, I mean even my favorite bands have songs I cant stand....but whatever. Paying customers have a right to complain, and that is what is happening here. Dismissing their complaints as "ignorant" which is what I read from your post, is asinine and frankly disrespectful of their needs/opinions/concerns.

Bubosh · June 16

fully agree with @Pixiepumpkin "(why are they even here if logging in is such a horrendous experience for them)" asking why ppl are giving feedback for a horrible patch is i dont know ....... @Elvenheart

Elvenheart · June 16

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

this game is a business and has obviously been run as a business, not a labor of love. That being said ive always though that zos's combat and dungeon/trial design has always been a major disconnect for the majority of its skyrim casual player base. Not just this game either. All the mmos are stuck in the same rut.

zos would just make it easier because thats the road of lowest effort but mmos are stagnant because they have not been able to successfully improve the gameplay to a point where its actually favorable to be in the company of other people. Thus the modern trend of soloing in mmos, defeating the purpose of its own existence. People are tired of people. These games need to do alot more to make that go the other way.

their new mmo will suffer the same fate if they do the same things.

people are mostly here and still here, for elder scrolls. if Zos treats their new MMO project in the same way they treat ESO i dont expect the MMO to last more than a couple months.

Everyone who plays their new mmo after the horrendous experience we made here is not to help anyway

What some may subjectively think is a horrendous experience (why are they even here if logging in is such a horrendous experience for them) others like myself continue to enjoy and go so far as to call it their favorite game. I would definitely give another MMO by ZOS a try if it’s a genre that I find appealing.

We calling it a horrendous experience and still logging in because we know the good old days and hopeing for their return..
We all love this game, thats why we are the 1% who makes the effort and make threads or write comments.

But compared to how the game was a few years ago, its so bad now.
Glad you still enjoy it tho, hope you keep having fun

Well, again this is just me, but there isn’t a game anyone has ever made that I would play if my playtime could be called a horrendous experience, no matter how much I ever enjoyed it in the past. I only have so much unknown time left on this Earth and I wouldn’t waste it by suffering through a horrendous experience day after day in the hopes that someday it MIGHT suddenly turn around and be the experience I want it to be.

Probably because out of any game most of these folks have played, this one has cost the most. Its a sunk cost fallacy issue. My family has easily spent close to 7k on this game. A cost so insanely high that 20 years of wow did not cost that much. Some of us want our moneys worth and right now, with U46 we did not get our moneys worth based on previous chapters and the amount and quality of the content created. So people/customers are rightfully upset because they did not get what they paid for based on a long standing precedent of what kind of content they would be receiving for the price. Especially not from a AAA studio.

If ESO did not have the crown store and stupidly high priced items and it was sub only. Then I don't think most folks would be as upset with 1 of the "chapters" failing to deliver. But when they have invested hundreds or thousdands to make the ESO experience the best it can be, only for the life to be cut short....well then ya, they are gonna be upset.

I am glad you are happy with 100% of the stuff ZOS makes. I personally find it a bit curious that they have the ability to tick all your boxers without fail, I mean even my favorite bands have songs I cant stand....but whatever. Paying customers have a right to complain, and that is what is happening here. Dismissing their complaints as "ignorant" which is what I read from your post, is asinine and frankly disrespectful of their needs/opinions/concerns.

Nowhere have I ever said on these forums ever in 10 years that anyone or any feelings others hold about this game are ignorant. I have always taken great pains to make sure that when I’m expressing my opinion that I note that in the post, that what I am saying is just the way I feel, or in the event of a recent post, I did reference that some others feel the way I do, but only because I’ve read their posts and know that to be true. And to say I don’t understand why some people choose to suffer through a “horrendous experience” (their words, not mine) is not calling them ignorant or implying in any way that they are ignorant, it is simply stating a fact. You explained why you think some people may choose to continue playing a game that they call a horrendous experience, saying that it’s because they’ve invested so much money in it, and I respect that opinion. But if in reading my text, you thought I was saying somebody is ignorant that’s 100% you reading that into my words. 😐

Pixiepumpkin · June 16

Elvenheart wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

this game is a business and has obviously been run as a business, not a labor of love. That being said ive always though that zos's combat and dungeon/trial design has always been a major disconnect for the majority of its skyrim casual player base. Not just this game either. All the mmos are stuck in the same rut.

zos would just make it easier because thats the road of lowest effort but mmos are stagnant because they have not been able to successfully improve the gameplay to a point where its actually favorable to be in the company of other people. Thus the modern trend of soloing in mmos, defeating the purpose of its own existence. People are tired of people. These games need to do alot more to make that go the other way.

their new mmo will suffer the same fate if they do the same things.

people are mostly here and still here, for elder scrolls. if Zos treats their new MMO project in the same way they treat ESO i dont expect the MMO to last more than a couple months.

Everyone who plays their new mmo after the horrendous experience we made here is not to help anyway

What some may subjectively think is a horrendous experience (why are they even here if logging in is such a horrendous experience for them) others like myself continue to enjoy and go so far as to call it their favorite game. I would definitely give another MMO by ZOS a try if it’s a genre that I find appealing.

We calling it a horrendous experience and still logging in because we know the good old days and hopeing for their return..
We all love this game, thats why we are the 1% who makes the effort and make threads or write comments.

But compared to how the game was a few years ago, its so bad now.
Glad you still enjoy it tho, hope you keep having fun

Well, again this is just me, but there isn’t a game anyone has ever made that I would play if my playtime could be called a horrendous experience, no matter how much I ever enjoyed it in the past. I only have so much unknown time left on this Earth and I wouldn’t waste it by suffering through a horrendous experience day after day in the hopes that someday it MIGHT suddenly turn around and be the experience I want it to be.

Probably because out of any game most of these folks have played, this one has cost the most. Its a sunk cost fallacy issue. My family has easily spent close to 7k on this game. A cost so insanely high that 20 years of wow did not cost that much. Some of us want our moneys worth and right now, with U46 we did not get our moneys worth based on previous chapters and the amount and quality of the content created. So people/customers are rightfully upset because they did not get what they paid for based on a long standing precedent of what kind of content they would be receiving for the price. Especially not from a AAA studio.

If ESO did not have the crown store and stupidly high priced items and it was sub only. Then I don't think most folks would be as upset with 1 of the "chapters" failing to deliver. But when they have invested hundreds or thousdands to make the ESO experience the best it can be, only for the life to be cut short....well then ya, they are gonna be upset.

I am glad you are happy with 100% of the stuff ZOS makes. I personally find it a bit curious that they have the ability to tick all your boxers without fail, I mean even my favorite bands have songs I cant stand....but whatever. Paying customers have a right to complain, and that is what is happening here. Dismissing their complaints as "ignorant" which is what I read from your post, is asinine and frankly disrespectful of their needs/opinions/concerns.

Nowhere have I ever said on these forums ever in 10 years that anyone or any feelings others hold about this game are ignorant. I have always taken great pains to make sure that when I’m expressing my opinion that I note that in the post, that what I am saying is just the way I feel, or in the event of a recent post, I did reference that some others feel the way I do, but only because I’ve read their posts and know that to be true. And to say I don’t understand why some people choose to suffer through a “horrendous experience” (their words, not mine) is not calling them ignorant or implying in any way that they are ignorant, it is simply stating a fact. You explained why you think some people may choose to continue playing a game that they call a horrendous experience, saying that it’s because they’ve invested so much money in it, and I respect that opinion. But if in reading my text, you thought I was saying somebody is ignorant that’s 100% you reading that into my words. 😐

Well I mean, there are a gazillion reasons why someone might not be happy and still play. I listed one. I have always assumed you a reasonably intelligent person based on your commentary. When you stated " (why are they even here if logging in is such a horrendous experience for them)", I ruled out that you could not come up with simple explaination, as I did, which left me to conclude that you were inferring something else about these people, and to me, what I read was you inferring them as "ignorant".

Elvenheart · June 16

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

this game is a business and has obviously been run as a business, not a labor of love. That being said ive always though that zos's combat and dungeon/trial design has always been a major disconnect for the majority of its skyrim casual player base. Not just this game either. All the mmos are stuck in the same rut.

zos would just make it easier because thats the road of lowest effort but mmos are stagnant because they have not been able to successfully improve the gameplay to a point where its actually favorable to be in the company of other people. Thus the modern trend of soloing in mmos, defeating the purpose of its own existence. People are tired of people. These games need to do alot more to make that go the other way.

their new mmo will suffer the same fate if they do the same things.

people are mostly here and still here, for elder scrolls. if Zos treats their new MMO project in the same way they treat ESO i dont expect the MMO to last more than a couple months.

Everyone who plays their new mmo after the horrendous experience we made here is not to help anyway

What some may subjectively think is a horrendous experience (why are they even here if logging in is such a horrendous experience for them) others like myself continue to enjoy and go so far as to call it their favorite game. I would definitely give another MMO by ZOS a try if it’s a genre that I find appealing.

We calling it a horrendous experience and still logging in because we know the good old days and hopeing for their return..
We all love this game, thats why we are the 1% who makes the effort and make threads or write comments.

But compared to how the game was a few years ago, its so bad now.
Glad you still enjoy it tho, hope you keep having fun

Well, again this is just me, but there isn’t a game anyone has ever made that I would play if my playtime could be called a horrendous experience, no matter how much I ever enjoyed it in the past. I only have so much unknown time left on this Earth and I wouldn’t waste it by suffering through a horrendous experience day after day in the hopes that someday it MIGHT suddenly turn around and be the experience I want it to be.

Probably because out of any game most of these folks have played, this one has cost the most. Its a sunk cost fallacy issue. My family has easily spent close to 7k on this game. A cost so insanely high that 20 years of wow did not cost that much. Some of us want our moneys worth and right now, with U46 we did not get our moneys worth based on previous chapters and the amount and quality of the content created. So people/customers are rightfully upset because they did not get what they paid for based on a long standing precedent of what kind of content they would be receiving for the price. Especially not from a AAA studio.

If ESO did not have the crown store and stupidly high priced items and it was sub only. Then I don't think most folks would be as upset with 1 of the "chapters" failing to deliver. But when they have invested hundreds or thousdands to make the ESO experience the best it can be, only for the life to be cut short....well then ya, they are gonna be upset.

I am glad you are happy with 100% of the stuff ZOS makes. I personally find it a bit curious that they have the ability to tick all your boxers without fail, I mean even my favorite bands have songs I cant stand....but whatever. Paying customers have a right to complain, and that is what is happening here. Dismissing their complaints as "ignorant" which is what I read from your post, is asinine and frankly disrespectful of their needs/opinions/concerns.

Nowhere have I ever said on these forums ever in 10 years that anyone or any feelings others hold about this game are ignorant. I have always taken great pains to make sure that when I’m expressing my opinion that I note that in the post, that what I am saying is just the way I feel, or in the event of a recent post, I did reference that some others feel the way I do, but only because I’ve read their posts and know that to be true. And to say I don’t understand why some people choose to suffer through a “horrendous experience” (their words, not mine) is not calling them ignorant or implying in any way that they are ignorant, it is simply stating a fact. You explained why you think some people may choose to continue playing a game that they call a horrendous experience, saying that it’s because they’ve invested so much money in it, and I respect that opinion. But if in reading my text, you thought I was saying somebody is ignorant that’s 100% you reading that into my words. 😐

Well I mean, there are a gazillion reasons why someone might not be happy and still play. I listed one. I have always assumed you a reasonably intelligent person based on your commentary. When you stated " (why are they even here if logging in is such a horrendous experience for them)", I ruled out that you could not come up with simple explaination, as I did, which left me to conclude that you were inferring something else about these people, and to me, what I read was you inferring them as "ignorant".

Thanks for clarifying that, I appreciate it and your nice comment about my other posts. 🙂

I think my curiosity about their statement simply resulted from the words horrendous experience. I totally understand continuing to play something that you might not be happy with at present for a while in the hopes that it will get better. But if this game or any game or any activity ever I am choosing to do got to the point that I would tell someone else it was a horrendous experience, I wouldn’t be surprised if the first thing out of their mouth was, “Well, why do you continue to play?” So I wasn’t intending to imply they were ignorant for continuing to play, I was simply looking at the world through my own set of tinted glasses and wondering why.

TaSheen · June 16

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

this game is a business and has obviously been run as a business, not a labor of love. That being said ive always though that zos's combat and dungeon/trial design has always been a major disconnect for the majority of its skyrim casual player base. Not just this game either. All the mmos are stuck in the same rut.

zos would just make it easier because thats the road of lowest effort but mmos are stagnant because they have not been able to successfully improve the gameplay to a point where its actually favorable to be in the company of other people. Thus the modern trend of soloing in mmos, defeating the purpose of its own existence. People are tired of people. These games need to do alot more to make that go the other way.

their new mmo will suffer the same fate if they do the same things.

Agreed. No Man's Sky is a labor of love. I don't get the same vibes here. I don't hear any passion coming through.

I think most people like MMORPG's because the playerbase brings life to a game. But not that they necessarily want to enage with other players. At least that is how I feel. I don't mind engaing on occasion, but I don't like being held to a schedule like WOW required in vanilla raiding.

Spot on @Pixiepumpkin - the ONLY reason I have played MMOs (this is my 3rd one) is because the world is alive in a way that single player games (even Skyrim with a continual player-added content churn) do not and never have.

However, that's not a reason to stay forever.... especially when this latest release has literally nothing for me to be interested in.

Iriidius · June 18

ADarklore wrote: »

All of these "I unsubscribed" posts... and then wonder why ZOS leans towards it's most profitable players... solo/casual players who enjoy housing and buying things from the store, than endgame or PvP.

ZOS said years ago that ESO+ doesn't pay the bills, hence the emphasis on the crown store and other money-making ventures that people say are 'money grabs'. ZOS is a 'for profit' company that needs to continuously make money to justify further development of the game. So if endgame and PvP players aren't spending money on the crown store, aren't buying houses or crates, then they aren't a profitable aspect of the game... and in fact, could be considered more of a drain on resources. You have to look at it from a business perspective... why would you continuously develop and add content specifically for groups that do not help your bottom line?

So next time someone posts about how THEY don't like the focus of the game, they need to ask themselves how much they've spent in the store the past year, and the previous years? Because that's exactly what ZOS is looking at, from a business perspective.

Most „unsubscribed“ posts only happen after ZoS has already neglected their playstile by not creating new content or solving issues or even nerfed it and worsened issues and ignored critic for a long time, so the neglect had already startet long before ZoS started loosing money because of unsubscribing and would have continued anyway.

When ZoS reads these „unsubscribed“ post than they probably also read the reasons for this unsubscribing (beeing neglect and destruction of their playstile) and that these players were willing to spend money and would probably be willing to spend money again without neglect and issues becoming too bad, so the continuing neglect was probably planned anyway and if not and ZoS really neglecting content because of unsubscriber despite knowing they would pay again when receiving help and content than it seems more like a punishment and counter-blackmail to prove resistance against and stop boycott.

However I cant remember any statement of ZoS stating that said playstiles spend too few money and therefore get too few attention but a few emphasizing supporting these playstiles althought never with any consequenzes and real support.

The point of unsubscribing is to show that ZoS only gets money for new content/improvements or at the very least not destroy playstile rather than getting or not getting money no matter if they improve and expand playstile, keep it unchanged or negatively change it.

Wing · June 18

fizzybeef wrote: »

Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

this game is a business and has obviously been run as a business, not a labor of love. That being said ive always though that zos's combat and dungeon/trial design has always been a major disconnect for the majority of its skyrim casual player base. Not just this game either. All the mmos are stuck in the same rut.

zos would just make it easier because thats the road of lowest effort but mmos are stagnant because they have not been able to successfully improve the gameplay to a point where its actually favorable to be in the company of other people. Thus the modern trend of soloing in mmos, defeating the purpose of its own existence. People are tired of people. These games need to do alot more to make that go the other way.

their new mmo will suffer the same fate if they do the same things.

people are mostly here and still here, for elder scrolls. if Zos treats their new MMO project in the same way they treat ESO i dont expect the MMO to last more than a couple months.

Everyone who plays their new mmo after the horrendous experience we made here is not to help anyway

i feel Marathon'd. like the money i put into this game was spent on something else while the barest amount of effort was put into cosmetics im expected to buy.

and then they will expect us to buy their next mmo and buy all its cosmetics.

im really tired of companies that provide a service that relies completely on consumer support to stay afloat (games are NOT a utility, i don't HAVE to to buy or play any of them.) acting like we are expected to play (and pay) out of the good of our hearts to provide all their employees a life.

no

make a better game, or im out.

a bunch of my friends recently moved back to playing and older MMO (we left it for ESO back in the day) because, well, its still going and has gotten good content over the years.
and ESO just took our classes away from us.

. . .so yeah.

Aliniel · June 18

Funny (actually, incredibly sad) how ZOS didn't respond to a single concern for 3 weeks on the PTS, but as soon as someone complains on the forums, they close the thread immediately.

Yes, ZOS is driving the game downhill. It's been happening for years. I think it may be time to change the leadership of the ESO. And I say this with no ill intention to anyone in ZOS. The game simply needs a new perspective because the trend is obvious to everyone now.

Iriidius · June 18

Sylosi wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it.

Udrath wrote: »

Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings

...

LOL..you once again cherry pick a post and misquote them. This is literally called propaganda as in you are twisting what is being said by your inference of hypocrisy by the author you quoted.

This is the actual quote by @Udrath. I have bolded the imporant part you left out.

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it. Classes used to feel good. Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings, but one good melee could come up and kill me. Back then it felt like each class had strengths and weaknesses, but now pvp just isn’t that fun because there are no significant abilities like that between each class archetype (stamina/magicka), and eventually classes will end up all playing the same in time with subclassing.

It is still laughable even with the full quote for two reasons.

Firstly hard-counters in a supposed "skilled" action combat game are terrible design, entirely contrary to the notion of skilled action combat, may as well go play a card game if I want hard counters. What you want is soft counters, where classes / builds have advantages / weaknesses, but where those advantages / weakness can still be overcome by playing well or get punished for playing badly.

Second his comparison is massively lop sided, he stands 1v20 spamming his hard counter, but that is supposed to be offset because one good melee might kill him, in what reality is that "balanced". It still comes across as someone who was fine when "balance" was heavily in his favour, but doesn't like it now he can't 1 v 20 crutching on a broken hard counter.

PvP balance was always trash in this game, which is precisely why if you played earlier in the game there were DKs everywhere, immune to ranged builds, yet still silly strong in melee. Or why Sorcs / NBs were so common for so many years in this game, because aside from them actually being very strong in terms of combat much of the time, they both broke risk vs reward by being able to easily disengage if they were losing (so zero balance breaking the most fundamental rule of PvP design - risk vs reward). Again players flock to the busted stuff this game has always had, the only good balance this game has ever had is the balance some see through their rose-tinted spectacles.

Which of course is one of the reasons PvP has been so unsuccessful in this game, even by the low standard of MMORPGs.

Sylosi wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it.

Udrath wrote: »

Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings

...

LOL..you once again cherry pick a post and misquote them. This is literally called propaganda as in you are twisting what is being said by your inference of hypocrisy by the author you quoted.

This is the actual quote by @Udrath. I have bolded the imporant part you left out.

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it. Classes used to feel good. Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings, but one good melee could come up and kill me. Back then it felt like each class had strengths and weaknesses, but now pvp just isn’t that fun because there are no significant abilities like that between each class archetype (stamina/magicka), and eventually classes will end up all playing the same in time with subclassing.

It is still laughable even with the full quote for two reasons.

Firstly hard-counters in a supposed "skilled" action combat game are terrible design, entirely contrary to the notion of skilled action combat, may as well go play a card game if I want hard counters. What you want is soft counters, where classes / builds have advantages / weaknesses, but where those advantages / weakness can still be overcome by playing well or get punished for playing badly.

Second his comparison is massively lop sided, he stands 1v20 spamming his hard counter, but that is supposed to be offset because one good melee might kill him, in what reality is that "balanced". It still comes across as someone who was fine when "balance" was heavily in his favour, but doesn't like it now he can't 1 v 20 crutching on a broken hard counter.

PvP balance was always trash in this game, which is precisely why if you played early in the game there were DKs everywhere, immune to ranged builds, yet still silly strong in melee. Or why Sorcs / NBs were so common for so many years in this game, because aside from them actually being very strong in terms of combat much of the time they both broke risk vs reward by being able to easily disengage if they were losing (so zero balance breaking the most fundamental rule of PvP design - risk vs reward). Again players flock to the busted stuff this game has always had, the only good balance this game has ever had is the balance some see through their rose-tinted spectacles.

Which of course is one of the reasons PvP has been so unsuccessful in this game, even by the low standard of MMORPGs.

1. You are not arguing the same points I am. I am not arguing balance, I am pointing out that the OP's argument was taken out of context. Which it was.
2. Reread point number 1.

Wrong.

I didn't argue it wasn't taken out of context, I argued it was still ridiculous even in context with the full quote and thus the context made no difference. Which is why I wrote - "It is still laughable even with the full quote for two reasons.".

Furthermore you are arguing about balance, because the context, the part you bolded is about balance, with the implication that it somehow negates the part the other poster "cherry picked", when of course it does no such thing, because even with that "context" it is still laughably imbalanced.

It totally makes a difference if Udrath wants to 1v20 or wants counters to matter so that a playstile counters another playstile and gets countered just as much by a third playstile.
If 1vX is not Udrath point or what he wants but just an example of how the counter works, 20 ranged players might as well be exaggeration.

It is extremely unlikely that 20 random players have only projectile dmg with noone having meele or nonprojectile ranged dmg(as wing only reflected projectiles but not beams or ranged dots like curse, potl, elesus or entropy) except they all coordinate builds to intentionally get countered by wings.
If projectile immunity is so overpowered why do players not make perma shielswall ulti builds? Probably because they get countered by any meele or dot build or unblockable stun.

Is it overpowered and unbalanced that both IRL and in ESO you can outrun 20 man if you are faster and they have no ranged weapons.

2018 wings was already linited to 4 projectiles.
Wings got nerfed so hard that almost nobody uses it anymore even in ranged meta. Probably the nerf was not because it was op but to make crystalized shield look better to make players buy and change to warden but althought as strong as prenerf wings still few wardens use this skill.

Counters in this game are so weak they might as well not exist and the side with higher stats and numbers always wins.

Iriidius · June 18

soelslaev wrote: »

My estimate is that 50% of the problem is the diminishing margin of utility we get from the dopamine hit we get when we accomplish a task in the game. In neurology this phenomenon is called habituation, but trying to find any research to back my assertion at the NIH is tough because the search results are mostly about chemical dependence. So, ummm, trust me? In other words, half the problem here is burn out. So good; go do something else – for your mental health.

Another 25% of the problem is with the game, and I don't have good news. The problem is baked in jank. In my personal life, I work on a mid-pop app. First, mobile app dev is baby poop compared to vidya game dev. As y'all know, software is made in layers, and our app has a janky lower level. I have been working on fixing the jank for 2 years. Metaphorically, how do I completely redo the first floor of a building while everyone still uses the first floor to its full capacity?

For ESO, I've been here since 30 days before Morrowind released, and there is jank that is never going away without a full rewrite. I'll give you a concrete example: the node pathing. Notice how, when you're in a fully closed off city that the quest arrows don't work on the zone map? The quest arrow stops at the exit to the city. You have to teleport outside the city for the final destination quest arrow to work right on the zone map. Now, even the most naive intern knows not to write your own node-pathing lib. So it ain't the node-pathing logic, but rather, they did not account for node pathing in the area data structures so there is no logical possible way to hand multiple areas to the node pathing wrapper and have it send the right info the node pathing lib. This might also be impacting 'cannot mount while in combat'. Some monster far away after you rez at a shrine thinks it can still get to you because of node pathing limitations. But all of this is my surmising from the outside, but you get the idea. Every piece of lower level jank can have wide ranging impacts that are not worth fixing.

The good news is that ZOS is working on something else. I hope it's an MMORPG. They have proven that are very inventive. ESO is the first MMORPG that I have liked. Seeing WOW gameplay with its 3 by 8 grid of squares all with some 1 second timer going looks like a fate worse than death to me. Not even competition to ESO for me. I fail to understand how folks even make the comparison.

As for the final 25% of the problem. Again, based on my software dev experience on a public product, y'all are just on the wrong side of analytics. In the mobile space, every year, my team has to make the decision to screw over like 5% of users. Sure, vidya game reasons are different than mobile app reasons, but the general situation is the same: limited allocation of resources. We gotta allocate where the most number of users are benefitted. Sorry? //shrug// If it makes you feel better, I'm an outlier too in my tastes and my fav things get killed, shut down, discontinued a lot too. Sniff, I miss you iPod Shuffle.

Sure repetitive repeating content over and over is not the same fun anymore hen it gets repetitive and boring after the xt time, but that is neither surprising or new to anyone here nor the reason the players here are conplaining.
The problem is existing content and balance really getting worse by ZoS changing it in a negative way and increasingly rely on giving expiring exclusive rewards to press players into repeating content rather than improve content or stop making it worse at least.

Julia_Nix · June 18

The irony XD

Cooperharley · June 18

NoSoup wrote: »

IRL what I'm observing is actually different, players that haven't played in 2 - 3 yrs have started returning over the last couple of weeks.

Yea I think the same truthfully. I think subclassing opens the door towards being closer to a mainline TES game with freedom of expression build-wise; however, these people I’m friends with were never here for the MMO aspects and end game. They played the game like a single player experience and left because of how easy the game was and once they got burnt out on a build, they didn’t want to come back to the same build or start all over. Subclassing mitigates that at least.

I was actually discussing this with a buddy too, but I think the overland difficulty increase will bring an incredible amount of people back. One of my best friends that I brought to the game played it like any RPG initially - he picked up and wore gear that had a higher armor value or weapons with more damage. He used whatever skills looked fun. There was no rotation, it was just button mashing and light attacks. Something that to a vet player, we would be confused looking at, but it’s kinda the natural way that a lot of new players come in.

I introduced him to builds and rotations and when everything clicked for him, he put something together and started SMOKING overland. Now obviously that’s not too hard but from his eyes, overland wasn’t overly boring because the way he played introduced a certain amount of difficulty - no rotation, no real gear, etc. Once he played the game understanding combat mechanics, overland was ruined/he started disliking the game and said he lost all sense of exploration and danger.

All of that to say, I think there’s a lot of people that get turned off by how easy overland is and subclassing is a cool step towards a TES game, but harder overland will surely bring lots of people back like that. Obviously not everyone will want it or use it or care for it, but a TON will IMO