Should subclassing skills & passives cost 2 skill points?

Abstraqt · June 4

Imo the 2 skill point cost seems really out of place and can make subclassing quite annoying. If it's supposed to be because narratively the new skills are out of our comfort zone so rewire more work to get them, I see the idea but it doesn't translate well.

I think after literally defeating molag bal, and all the other crazy adventures our characters have been on they would be able to handle summoning a skeleton or creating a protective shield alright even if it's a new skill for them.

I'm curious to see others thoughts on this.

Jaimeh · June 4

I don't mind it, I think the idea behind the extra cost was probably because the system offers a lot of advantages so it should require some extra work. Kind of like scribing and ink in the beginning. I think after people test out things and decide on their skills for their bars, the management of the points will be better.

MaraxusTheOrc · June 4

I am okay with it. Skill point bloat is very real after 10 years so this is at least one path to address it.

LunaFlora · June 4

i have been fine with this since April, when it was announced

DenverRalphy · June 4

Subclassing grants the player significantly more power. IMHO, the double skillpoint cost isn't enough to counter it.

tomofhyrule · June 4

I think it's a weird choice, honestly.

I get that that idea is "oh, we want to make Subclassing an actual choice!" but an opportunity cost is not a drawback. This means that players who have hundreds of skill points have no barrier, whereas new players face an even greater uphill climb to get to use it.

Frankly, I would have just kept it all the same, and I'd even have allowed swapping all three lines or taking two lines from the same parent Class.

The actual drawback I'd like to have seen would be something that made it so a character with three standard Class lines would be within range of someone who Subclassed in terms of power (damage, healing, tanking ability). Currently, min-maxing Subclassing leads to an absurd power delta even over pure Classes. I do think that min-maxing whould not be at the same level, but we should not be talking about the difference between a max of 100k and 170k DPS. Maybe more something like 120k versus 135k.

bmnoble · June 5

I mean isn't it more a speed bump countermeasure against someone having access to all the sub classed skills levelled, creating a fresh character and being overpowered in PVP right away while still at low level compared to those using and still in the process of levelling up their base class skill lines.

Throw that person still levelling against someone who knows what their doing, with a bit of time sky shard hunting they could turn up to level 10 PVP, having access to up to two class skill lines, passives and desired morphs, while they can do that right now doubling the cost is going to slow them down or get them to waste crowns on sky shard unlocks.

Soarora · June 5

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Subclassing grants the player significantly more power. IMHO, the double skillpoint cost isn't enough to counter it.

I understand the concept but echoing what Denver says here, it doesn’t do anything. Its just more grind to do. People will still subclass and expect subclassing, but now you also need to get 10 more skillpoints somehow. I might have to resort to speedrunning main quests (which I really wish were repeatable! Please!)

Frayton · June 5

It's disappointing, so I am just not bothering on my alts who don't have enough skillpoints. I'm not running that dungeon/zone for the millionth time just to subclass them, nor am I shelling out real cash in the crown store for skyshards like I used to. ESO isn't worth that grind and time investment anymore. It's my very casual side game now.

NoSoup · June 5

Personally I think it should just be 1 skill point as the opportunity cost really doesn't offer pure classes any real advantages given the access to skill points. Should be 1 skill point each and a 10% loss of attributes for each subclass selected.

valenwood_vegan · June 5

So I mean I understand generally why they threw this downside to subclassing in there, but it makes no sense. For long-time, vet players, the skill point cost doesn't even matter... most of my characters have dozens of extra skill points already. It also does nothing whatsoever to actually reign in the power of subclassing; in practice it's simply an additional, annoying, grindy barrier for newer players who want to try subclassing.

QB1 · June 5

Should cost 1 skill point like other skills

fizzylu · June 5

I have so many skill points that I didn't even realize it cost two for the subclassing stuff.... that being said, I do think that's an odd and pointless choice. Really just hinders newer players and maybe motivates some others to buy more skyshard packs, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the main goal Zenimax had.

Dalsinthus · June 5

The higher cost will likely will push people to unlock skyshards via the Crown Store for alts.

Elvenheart · June 5

bmnoble wrote: »

I mean isn't it more a speed bump countermeasure against someone having access to all the sub classed skills levelled, creating a fresh character and being overpowered in PVP right away while still at low level compared to those using and still in the process of levelling up their base class skill lines.

Throw that person still levelling against someone who knows what their doing, with a bit of time sky shard hunting they could turn up to level 10 PVP, having access to up to two class skill lines, passives and desired morphs, while they can do that right now doubling the cost is going to slow them down or get them to waste crowns on sky shard unlocks.

Me, I had 11 fully leveled characters I am not ready to change, so I leveled a 12th character from scratch the past month using training gear. By the end of getting that character ready by leisurely collecting skyshards and lorebooks , I had enough skill points for all the needed basic lines like armor and race, one skill line, one weapon line, and the Mages Guild line maxed out, and somewhere around 111 skill points left for two Subclassed skill lines, way more than the the 80 or so needed for the two lines. Now, to level those lines I’m still using gear with the training trait and Mora’s Whispers.

DenverRalphy · June 5

I doubt selling skyshard packs was the incentive. It's too easy to just run around the map picking them up for free. Buying skyshard packs is still just a convenience buy.

I'm relatively confident it was intended as a balance/counter mechanic that wasn't well thought out. Same as the "Can't subclass 2 skill lines from the same class" rule, as that's easy to skirt by just starting with the class you wanted 2 skill lines from, and picking just 1 from the original class.

Malyore · June 5

Yes, it's fine.

SolarRune · June 5

It's fine, like scribing last year and getting scripts, this is similar it's about 'persuading' people to engage with more content - Delves, public dungeons, dungeons, zones, storylines etc.

Xarc · June 5

I think it should even cost 3 skills points

daim · June 5

Nah. It's just a useless grind - at least for the newer players or alts (if we still need alts ..)

Thorncrypt · June 5

It's a boring grind that makes me want to play the game less, honestly, at least when it comes to raising alts.

SolarRune · June 5

The grind for scripts was also boring, just pointing out that it fits recent history on how they have done things

Thorncrypt · June 5

Just because they have done things a certain way before does not mean that it's always the best way to handle things.

SolarRune · June 5

Agreed, although it not like any of it is difficult and MMOs have always been about the latest grind, and I've got use to it, so don't see the issue with it. It gives focus to gameplay that is different to my usual heavy trial focus. In fact it's been a pleasant break from that content making me eager to go again once I have finished the line discoveries I wanted (with luck should be done tonight, and can then start refocussing my builds properly)

#edited for spelling/autocorrect changes

ADarklore · June 5

Thorncrypt wrote: »

It's a boring grind that makes me want to play the game less, honestly, at least when it comes to raising alts.

And this is why ZOS sells access to previously found skyshards in the Crown Store.

With all the Subclassing builds, I still find I have roughly 60 skill points left over. Armories are also great for helping spread out the use of skill points.

Vulkunne · June 5

I'm kind of torn on this.

First of all, the plans I have for subclass characters are to provide solutions where like in many cases I won't use a skill line, so I sub that and use very few abilities anyways. So for me subs are a booster and not the full Rocketship so to speak.

Is it alright if they cost a little more, yes. But it is alright if they cost a little more, well, maybe not cause I'm sick and tired of grinding every time we get an update. Not saying I won't do it but what was all the previous work for?

So maybe. lol

wolfie1.0. · June 6

It makes skill choices and subclassing more weight and have some downside to it. Honestly its pretty lightweight.

AlterBlika · June 6

You're swapping your skill trees for better ones, of course it should cost more.

Scaletho · June 6

No. This is unnecessary and punishing.

SilverBride · June 6

There should absolutely be a cost to it.

FadeShade · June 6

I don't mind the skill point cost but think that it might have been better to have the subclassed skill lines have a higher cost, maybe 5% or 10%, kind of like battle spirit so that base class skill nerfs could have been avoided. Then any tweaks required in future could just increase or decrease that cost %. Base classes would then be unaffected as would those preferring to play them.