Can we get Cleansing Potions?

Avran_Sylt · April 27

Seems that Battlegrounds is plagued with... Plagues... and Sheer Venom/Hunter's Venom/Poison Injection/Lethal Arrow.

Just a few Attacks and you've got 10s or so of constant tick damage that you need to out-heal or hope you've got a Templar healer on your team.

It'd be nice if there were some potions that can be used to cleanse negative effects from you.

Soarora · April 27

You could slot purge, netch, or the necro ability I don’t remember the name of.

Not opposed to potions though.

Avran_Sylt · April 27

Soarora wrote: »

You could slot purge, netch, or the necro ability I don’t remember the name of.

Not opposed to potions though.

Eh. Not a Warden/Necro, looking for a single-target cleanse not group, and I have limited barspace using Oakensoul even given subclassing.

SpiritKitten · April 28

There is a CP that will cleanse if you heal yourself below a certain Health amount.

Oblivion_Protocol · April 28

SpiritKitten wrote: »

There is a CP that will cleanse if you heal yourself below a certain Health amount.

OP is talking about BGs, where CP is disabled. So that wouldn’t help.

SpiritKitten · April 28

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

There is a CP that will cleanse if you heal yourself below a certain Health amount.

OP is talking about BGs, where CP is disabled. So that wouldn’t help.

Oh, well I got nothing then.

Erickson9610 · April 28

Werewolf would make great use out of a potion that could cleanse negative effects, due to not having access to an ability that cleanses. I'd use such a potion for sure!

If "cleanse" is a new effect added with new Alchemy ingredients, then what would you suppose the Poison variant of the effect would do?

Thumbless_Bot · April 28

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Werewolf would make great use out of a potion that could cleanse negative effects, due to not having access to an ability that cleanses. I'd use such a potion for sure!

If "cleanse" is a new effect added with new Alchemy ingredients, then what would you suppose the Poison variant of the effect would do?

Make it like traumatic poison, where your attempt to heal 2000 healing is negated. Only instead of healing, make it your first x number of cleanses within z seconds. Whatever is fair, I guess.

AlterBlika · April 28

You can scribe a cleanse skill though

Avran_Sylt · April 28

AlterBlika wrote: »

You can scribe a cleanse skill though

Which removes up to 1 negative effect at random, takes a GCD and bar slot.

I'm looking for something specialized. Akin to a detect pot. Something that can negate such stacked negative effects and take advantage of set cooldowns. (With its own lengthy cooldown).

Avran_Sylt · April 28

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Werewolf would make great use out of a potion that could cleanse negative effects, due to not having access to an ability that cleanses. I'd use such a potion for sure!

If "cleanse" is a new effect added with new Alchemy ingredients, then what would you suppose the Poison variant of the effect would do?

Make it like traumatic poison, where your attempt to heal 2000 healing is negated. Only instead of healing, make it your first x number of cleanses within z seconds. Whatever is fair, I guess.

An alternate take would be to make the target more susceptible to negative effects: making them more prone to status effects.

Navaac223 · April 29

Usually the issue with pvp isn't DoT skills but I guess you can use mara's balm.

Sure, the 30s cooldown is enough to make it mediocre but it's the closest thing we have to a cleanse potion. Plus, it's shorter than a potion cooldown (45s) and you get a free burst heal as well as generally good defensive stats.
Just put it on your back bar and you have an on demand cleanse.. as long as you stay on your front bar most of the time (you should stop using oakensoul and just put 1 armor skill on your back bar as well as other buffs. It isn't hard to maintain and I really believe slotting it over something like markyn is just nerfing yourself for no reason,even if you don't use every slot in the back bar)

You probably have 5 mara's pieces sitting in your bank that you abandonned after it got nerfed, I know I do

Credible_Joe · April 29

A potion effect that purges sounds like it should have been present at launch. Especially with all the Oblivion influence that I'm just recently noticing in the rest of the overall design. Why has this never crossed my mind?

It'd be pretty straightforward to balance. Purge one negative effect with one match. Three with the triple match. Make it pretty tough to match with, the way protection is. Make people choose between tri-pots and purge-pots. And not having a lingering effect on recovery the way health, magicka, and stamina restore does goes a long way towards balance as well.

I wouldn't even be opposed to shuffling around some effects to make room; just so we don't have to add another high value ingredient. The split between weapon and spell damage, AND crit is still present in alchemy ingredients. Combining either of those into one to make room for a new effect doesn't sound super disruptive. I'm not sure if potions remember the ingredients that made them, but if they don't, it wouldn't affect legacy potions at all.

YandereGirlfriend · May 8

This is actually a really great idea and now that you mention it it is odd that it isn't already in the game.

The Alchemy system is so dated and in dire need of a re-vamp.

cuddles_with_wroble · May 11

Cleanse pots would be amazing, just make sure they don’t give healing.

JaxontheUnfortunate · May 20

Yeah make the cleanse effect the same “slot” as heal, would nice for ww players as we can’t use any cleanse skills when transformed.

tsaescishoeshiner · May 20

There are much better purge tools than a potion, since potions have a 45-second cooldown. Even if it was "purge all negative effects" instead of only a few like most purge/cleanse skills, it would be very niche--maybe 1vXers, and even then, it would probably not be better than unstoppable and mag/stam potions.

YandereGirlfriend · May 20

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

There are much better purge tools than a potion, since potions have a 45-second cooldown. Even if it was "purge all negative effects" instead of only a few like most purge/cleanse skills, it would be very niche--maybe 1vXers, and even then, it would probably not be better than unstoppable and mag/stam potions.

It never hurts to give people options and allow them to weight those choices for themselves.

tsaescishoeshiner · May 21

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

There are much better purge tools than a potion, since potions have a 45-second cooldown. Even if it was "purge all negative effects" instead of only a few like most purge/cleanse skills, it would be very niche--maybe 1vXers, and even then, it would probably not be better than unstoppable and mag/stam potions.

It never hurts to give people options and allow them to weight those choices for themselves.

I think it only hurts when it comes at the expense of other options that could be added, or adds more filler to the game. People do complain about unpopular traits, sets, and consumables that aren't very helpful.

Solariken · May 21

I'm all for more build options, would love a cleanse effect available via potions.

Erickson9610 · May 21

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

There are much better purge tools than a potion, since potions have a 45-second cooldown. Even if it was "purge all negative effects" instead of only a few like most purge/cleanse skills, it would be very niche--maybe 1vXers, and even then, it would probably not be better than unstoppable and mag/stam potions.

It never hurts to give people options and allow them to weight those choices for themselves.

I think it only hurts when it comes at the expense of other options that could be added, or adds more filler to the game. People do complain about unpopular traits, sets, and consumables that aren't very helpful.

What other effects should be prioritized for the Alchemy system? I don't see why Cleanse shouldn't be a new potion effect, because there are still some playstyles which lack a purge.

Vaqual · May 21

I think flexible access through potions is a bit too powerful for cleanse. The CP, set and ability based cleanses demand at least enough commitment to slot them outside of combat. You basically take the risk of bringing a somewhat useless ability against direct burst damage builds, to counter pressure/debuff-heavy builds.
Swapping to a cleansing potion mid fight would be drastically more value on demand. So it would either need to be weak enough to be borderline useless or it would just always outcompete other cleanses.

Erickson9610 · May 21

Vaqual wrote: »

I think flexible access through potions is a bit too powerful for cleanse. The CP, set and ability based cleanses demand at least enough commitment to slot them outside of combat. You basically take the risk of bringing a somewhat useless ability against direct burst damage builds, to counter pressure/debuff-heavy builds.
Swapping to a cleansing potion mid fight would be drastically more value on demand. So it would either need to be weak enough to be borderline useless or it would just always outcompete other cleanses.

What makes cleansing potions different from detect potions, regarding opportunity cost?

It actually makes more sense for a potion to cleanse harmful effects than it does for a potion to reveal stealthed/invisible enemies.

Credible_Joe · May 21

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

I think flexible access through potions is a bit too powerful for cleanse. The CP, set and ability based cleanses demand at least enough commitment to slot them outside of combat. You basically take the risk of bringing a somewhat useless ability against direct burst damage builds, to counter pressure/debuff-heavy builds.
Swapping to a cleansing potion mid fight would be drastically more value on demand. So it would either need to be weak enough to be borderline useless or it would just always outcompete other cleanses.

What makes cleansing potions different from detect potions, regarding opportunity cost?

It actually makes more sense for a potion to cleanse harmful effects than it does for a potion to reveal stealthed/invisible enemies.

Not to mention that just putting your potion on cooldown is a huge cost in and of itself.

Potions serve a small number of highly competitive roles:

Damage
Sustain
Escape
Defense
Detection

All of these have skill equivalents, and it's always been about weighing which to slot on your skill bar and which to spend your potion cooldown on. Adding cleanse to that mix just promotes build variety and opens up more options, it would not devalue slotting a cleanse or the role of a healer.

If anything, the opposite. The same way that a single group member that slots flare frees up detect from the whole group's potion CD, a healer would be able to slot cleanse for the same purpose, or unslot cleanse and focus on alternative support skills, relying on the group's cleanse pots.

In fact, cleanse is arguably over-tuned for demand in PvP specifically. With a cleanses slotted we sacrifice significant skill bar economy, without one our performance is at the mercy of DOTs, debuffs, and status effects.

Cleanse pots would give us a single-use layer of defense against such builds at the cost of our potion cooldown. Slotting a skill would still be strictly superior, as that neuters such builds entirely.

YandereGirlfriend · May 22

Yeah, none of the arguments against hold any water.

This should be in the game like... yesterday.

Vaqual · May 22

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

I think flexible access through potions is a bit too powerful for cleanse. The CP, set and ability based cleanses demand at least enough commitment to slot them outside of combat. You basically take the risk of bringing a somewhat useless ability against direct burst damage builds, to counter pressure/debuff-heavy builds.
Swapping to a cleansing potion mid fight would be drastically more value on demand. So it would either need to be weak enough to be borderline useless or it would just always outcompete other cleanses.

What makes cleansing potions different from detect potions, regarding opportunity cost?

It actually makes more sense for a potion to cleanse harmful effects than it does for a potion to reveal stealthed/invisible enemies.

This is a bit hard to discuss, since we haven't set any baseline for the effectiveness of such a pot, and that matters a lot in this case. In my argument I pretty much assume at least a full cleanse once per potion cooldown. I think I don't really have to go into the math for you to imagine what kind of value in terms of mitigated damage something like that could create and how it would scale, I am sure you have a healthy idea.
But what if the number of effects is limited? What if it ticks peridodically? It gets trickier there. There is probably a way to make them balanced, but the bottom line is the same: Cleanses are a hard counter to debuff/dot builds. Like slotting major evasion against aoe or scales against projectiles, it is a very powerful counter mechanic. Something like this should require a hard commitment, if the cleanse is strong enough. If I can casually decide to shut down a dot build at any given moment, dot builds will be at a strong disadvantage overall. We saw how overly efficient cleanses can shape the meta when Mara's Balm 1.0 went live and dot builds where almost nowhere to be seen (except for mdw/vate destro/maarselok, which was basically a burst combo in disguise). You can't change your build mid fight, but you can swap your pot.
So if the cleanse from this pot would be too strong and everyone can have it at all times, why would anyone even consider running dots, when there is a high chance that they will weigh down the builds performance? And if the cleanse effect would be too weak? Why would anyone hold off a pot for it?

Sure, detect pots come at an opportunity cost too. But the implications are a bit different.
Shutting down the ability to use stealth for a limited time through potions has its defensive or offensive merits against cloak users, but this is not necessarily crippling. The player may still be able to disengage by other means, play defensively or push the attack in that time window. Could the cloak have saved the player from receiving a large amount of damage? Absolutely, but at the same time, it might not have. He could have been revealed by cleave damage or been forced out of cloak by resource shortage or ability usage.
A dot build has to go through enough ramp up time to compensate for passive healing before pressure even sets in. Some dots may expire early or be out of sync due to dodging or movement, so the ramp up can be actively delayed to begin with. And if it can be cleansed on demand just after the pressure hits critical mass (e.g. on ult dump like lacerate) with a single guaranteed and controllable action, this can really stop such a build from being competitive. And if that is something that everyone can access at all times on a 40s cooldown, without otherwise harming their builds (depends on how those pots would ship and what other buffs would come with it), that would be a very significant change.
There is a reason why existing cleanses are either slow, stationary or costly.

I am not strictly against it, I just have a hard time imagining a fair and useful concept for it.

YandereGirlfriend · May 25

Full Cleanse every pot is the way.

It is still a massive opportunity cost vs. something like a standard tri-pot or Alliance pot (if that is how, for example, you are sourcing your primary damage or recovery buffs). I highly doubt that suddenly every PvP player would drop their tri-pots to run them. It would be strong against some builds and tremendously ineffective against others, balanced as Talos intended.

Vaqual · May 25

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Full Cleanse every pot is the way.

It is still a massive opportunity cost vs. something like a standard tri-pot or Alliance pot (if that is how, for example, you are sourcing your primary damage or recovery buffs). I highly doubt that suddenly every PvP player would drop their tri-pots to run them. It would be strong against some builds and tremendously ineffective against others, balanced as Talos intended.

But that is the point, they don't have to drop the tri-pot. You just swap the other one in once you identify that the opponent relies on dots and that is it. Sure, it might do nothing in a messy large scale fight. But in every scenario where you can actually identify what your opponent is using it would be a crazy trump card to pull out of your sleeve. And if the alchemy system stays the same it will come with 2 other effects, so it it basically pointless to just evaluate it in comparison to another potion. At this point not even Talos knows if it is balanced.

Avran_Sylt · June 3

Vaqual wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Full Cleanse every pot is the way.

It is still a massive opportunity cost vs. something like a standard tri-pot or Alliance pot (if that is how, for example, you are sourcing your primary damage or recovery buffs). I highly doubt that suddenly every PvP player would drop their tri-pots to run them. It would be strong against some builds and tremendously ineffective against others, balanced as Talos intended.

But that is the point, they don't have to drop the tri-pot. You just swap the other one in once you identify that the opponent relies on dots and that is it. Sure, it might do nothing in a messy large scale fight. But in every scenario where you can actually identify what your opponent is using it would be a crazy trump card to pull out of your sleeve. And if the alchemy system stays the same it will come with 2 other effects, so it it basically pointless to just evaluate it in comparison to another potion. At this point not even Talos knows if it is balanced.

Full cleanse Pot works once every 45s and share the same CD slot as a Tri-pot slot. Oh well they cleanse, so just reapply your DoTs while they cleanse and you may or may not even be there. So long as they don't pressure you, which is less likely as you can prioritize disengage given the sticky nature of DoTs.

Potions have a universal cooldown.

And when it comes to DoTs, YOU CAN STILL REAPLLY THEM OUTSIDE OF DAMAGE SETS and POTION COOLDOWNS even given FLAT CLEANSE if you're constantly applying pressure. TAG AND RUN.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · June 3

I didn't know cleanse skills made an entire dot-dependent swathe of builds irrelevant - after all, you can fully cleanse faster than 1 time in 45 seconds with the skill!

Vaqual · June 4

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Full Cleanse every pot is the way.

It is still a massive opportunity cost vs. something like a standard tri-pot or Alliance pot (if that is how, for example, you are sourcing your primary damage or recovery buffs). I highly doubt that suddenly every PvP player would drop their tri-pots to run them. It would be strong against some builds and tremendously ineffective against others, balanced as Talos intended.

But that is the point, they don't have to drop the tri-pot. You just swap the other one in once you identify that the opponent relies on dots and that is it. Sure, it might do nothing in a messy large scale fight. But in every scenario where you can actually identify what your opponent is using it would be a crazy trump card to pull out of your sleeve. And if the alchemy system stays the same it will come with 2 other effects, so it it basically pointless to just evaluate it in comparison to another potion. At this point not even Talos knows if it is balanced.

Full cleanse Pot works once every 45s and share the same CD slot as a Tri-pot slot. Oh well they cleanse, so just reapply your DoTs while they cleanse and you may or may not even be there. So long as they don't pressure you, which is less likely as you can prioritize disengage given the sticky nature of DoTs.

Potions have a universal cooldown.

And when it comes to DoTs, YOU CAN STILL REAPLLY THEM OUTSIDE OF DAMAGE SETS and POTION COOLDOWNS even given FLAT CLEANSE if you're constantly applying pressure. TAG AND RUN.

Very insightful. Do you think I don't know potions have a shared cooldown? Was that what you took from my post? Try to understand what I am writing before replying in caps.
The issue is not keeping up a DoT every once in a while, it is reaching the the critical amount of DoT damage to score a kill or at least help with the burst spike. Tag and run isn't a relevant play style outside of a zerging mess or against targets that are actually defending themselves. Reapplying means ramp up time and a massive retroactive loss of damage per cast. It potentially devalues multiple GCDs, where direct damage abilities and procs would not have been affected. That would massively disincentivise DoTs compared to self-buffing and coordinated burst abilities/sets, which are already far superior - and that just due to the mere possibility that your opponent might switch to a full cleanse at will.