I went from playing PvP almost nightly to haven’t even logged into the game in weeks now. Cyrodiil is incredibly stale with comped groups spamming RoA with 50k health to the constant stuck in combat bug making you miss majority of fights to being desynced nonstop, it’s a mess and I just don’t see how the Subclassing update is going to make it any better. I’ve been playing PvP for years but I think the subclassing is sadly going to be it for me. ZOS can’t even balance the sets and skills we have now, how in the world are they going to balance the meta and exploits subclassing is going to bring?

Udrath wrote: »

If all stats were 0 across the board when naked, and attributes at a base 16k hp 8k/8k stamina/magicka without any passives or points, then pvp would be better. No free 1500 spell/weapon damage or recovery just flat 0’s.

It used to be like this, and we had all the same problems, just different numbers to blame.

Udrath wrote: »

If all stats were 0 across the board when naked, and attributes at a base 16k hp 8k/8k stamina/magicka without any passives or points, then pvp would be better. No free 1500 spell/weapon damage or recovery just flat 0’s.

Time to nerf all the naked 1vXer and ballgroups outnumbered farming poor metachasers as well as naked duellants dominating Alikr and naked zerglings attacking you without youhaving a chance to 1vX them because their stats make them each of them stronger than you.
Naked characters have so much stats compared to a metabuild that playing a metabuild is totally not worth it as it makes you weaker.

A naked player shouldnt be able to 1v1 a mudcrab but after 3 attacks doing 3k dmg run out of mag or stam that will not regenerate while in combat and (if heavy attack ressoursse regain is alse set to 0) die or run away. New players will surely love that and be more motivated to play the game.

As everyone has these naked stats everyone gets a huge advantage over everyone making power creep even worse.
I am so tired of whole playerbase beeing nudists with every map full of them.
Irony off.

If you think minmaxing your character doesnt give you enaugh of an advantage than maybe you rely on and expect too much getting carried rather than outplaying your opponent.
If with a metabuild you cant win against bad geared players than maybe you are not such a great player and/or your opponents not as bad as you think.

Weesacs wrote: »

I don't play Cyrodiil much but I am a vet BG player. Therefore this is coming solely from a BG perspective ...

- MMR doesn't exist. If it does exist its either broken or implemented poorly. This should be fixed.

- Balancing of healers. One team having no healers and one team having 2 or more. This shouldn't happen.
- ...

agree with everything listed.

Also they should check slotted skills to determine whether a player is a healer, not by the role picked.

And they could improve matching a lot by merely balancing around gear ranking and whether a non-NB has 20k HP, if MMR isn't available.


All of those except proper MMR should be rather simple to fix.

Sluggy wrote: »

And quite, frankly, I don't see any chance, whatsoever, that it will be good without constant large-scale testing.

They added Weapon, Assault, and Support skill lines on the U46 PTS, which I did get to test. They felt pretty good, designed pretty consistently like the other Vengeance skills, giving it a simple but meaningful build system. You can make a StamSorc now, I was even able to make a Vengeance version of my fast moving dot DK like I play on live.

They haven't added more sieges yet, but they absolutely need to add something like Meatbags to break up the open field zergs, otherwise large scale will continue to degenerate into a numbers count. However if they do, 40v60 zerg fights become very winnable for the 40, and I think Vengeance is in pretty good shape then.

LPapirius wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

And quite, frankly, I don't see any chance, whatsoever, that it will be good without constant large-scale testing.

They added Weapon, Assault, and Support skill lines on the U46 PTS, which I did get to test. They felt pretty good, designed pretty consistently like the other Vengeance skills, giving it a simple but meaningful build system. You can make a StamSorc now, I was even able to make a Vengeance version of my fast moving dot DK like I play on live.

They haven't added more sieges yet, but they absolutely need to add something like Meatbags to break up the open field zergs, otherwise large scale will continue to degenerate into a numbers count. However if they do, 40v60 zerg fights become very winnable for the 40, and I think Vengeance is in pretty good shape then.

How does someone with as much PvP experience as you have arrive at the conclusion that Vengeance mode is a good thing? If ZOS ever makes Vengeance mode mandatory you're gonna have all of Cyrodiil to yourself and the few friends you run with regularly....assuming they'll stick around.

Another thing to consider, every argument you've made in support of vengeance mode is dependant on ZOS doing things to make it better. If you can't see the flaw in this thinking then I don't know what to tell you. ZOS doesn't exactly have a respectable track record of fixing their PvP systems, now do they? And remember, Vengeance mode has been sold to us as a TEST so they can use the info gathered to improve the current live PvP mode. Have you seen them make any changes due to the data they got from their first "test"? Ya, me neither.

When ZOS actually does something about RoA and heal/shield stacking then you can argue ZOS intends to improve their PvP system. Until then there is no point to be made.

As someone with over a decade of experience, it's easy. Live Cyrodiil is a shadow of what it once was. Tiny population, dominated by organized groups and proc sets, insanely powerful builds that do everything and have no weaknesses. Last night. for whatever reason I decided to go through the roster of PC/NA's PvP guild that most of the Cyrodiil regulars joined (it was meant to be just a chill place for regulars to hang out or just do things like ask what was the Chalman d-tick). It had hundreds and hundreds of players who used to play every night. Now "Last Active ___ months ago," 90% of them. They're all gone. Because, as you admit, "ZOS doesn't exactly have a respectable track record of fixing their PvP systems."

What the Vengeance critics do not seem to realize is that Vengeance greatest appeal was irrelevant to its way too oversimplified abilities: it was full of people, I never went more than 2 minutes without genuine action. Add in the fact I never saw a stupid proc set on my death recap, players actually ran out of resources, nobody ever healed instantly to full, never got into a protracted stalemate, and there was never a group of 12 holding an entire server hostage, were all nice bonuses. But it's mostly the map was popping and, oh yeah, we used to have constant epic sieges. It was so full of people, I saw names I haven't seen in years - and the fact I saw them more than one day indicates that even though they are done with Live Cyrodiil, it is possible to recapture the magic of what used to make it so fun: an active map that were something more than tower humping and 30 PUGs getting pathetically farmed by a ball group on Arrius's third floor. In short, Vengeance was the first time since 2018 I did three things:

1. Logged into Cyrodiil every night for a week
2. Didn't log out because of boredom, frustration with balance/procs/ball groups
3. Genuinely looked forward to playing and had fun

The critics all assume that Vengeance will flop and everyone will just leave. You mean like Live Cyrodiil? If that comes to pass, well, nothing was really lost was it? I had fun in the meantime so worth it from my perspective. I recall one fight late during the test at Fort Ash that had over 8,000 registered kills. Obviously, I was not alone in my feelings about participating in Vengeance.

There is one point I mostly agree with you about

When ZOS actually does something about RoA and heal/shield stacking then you can argue ZOS intends to improve their PvP system. Until then there is no point to be made.

I disagree with the last sentence though.

There is a devastating point to be made. I honestly entertained myself with the idea because of the popularity of the Vengeance test and its obvious marked improvement in performance, ZOS might, just might, be finally convinced after literally years and years to do something about these two very things that are a stain on Live Cyrodiil. There was never a better occasion or reason to finally do this. That they didn't tells me they aren't going to lift a finger, probably ever, to actually improve Live Cyrodiil. We will only ever get meaningless changes of the sort that was done to Endless Fury, putting in tone-deaf developer comment about how it was this meh ability being the scourge of PvP, ignoring all the proc sets, meta builds, and ball groups that are and have been the actual carries.

So the critics can crap all they want over Vengeance, I say fine and I don't care. It was something Live Cyrodiil will never be because of all the bloated calculations and do-everything builds with no weakness: full of people and fights. When the next Vengeance test comes, go ahead and take a break while the rest of us recapture what genuinely attracted us to ESO and Cyrodiil in the first place. If the point ever does come in which the critics are right and people stop logging into Vengeance, then they can crow all they want about how they were right. That that day has not come yet. But it has for Live Cyrodiil.

Joy_Division wrote: »

The critics all assume that Vengeance will flop and everyone will just leave. You mean like Live Cyrodiil? If that comes to pass, well, nothing was really lost was it?

Quoted for truth and emphasis. Many players say they would jump ship to another game in a heartbeat if it even slightly resembled what can be found there. Well, here's the chance for that. As it is now, Cyrodiil on live is dead. PCNA has, what, maybe a couple hundred regular players left?

Just for the record, I am critical of Vengeance mode, but not the concept of it. Just how they are approaching any potential development of it.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

As it is now, Cyrodiil on live is dead.

That's my view as well, the disconnect I've noticed is how so many players think that Live is just one "simple" silver bullet away from being everything they ever wanted. It's not even a few fixes away, nuking Rushing Agony is probably the "simplest" thing they could do and it's not like that alone would solve the ball group problem or the proc set problem.

That's a very good observation. It probably comes from many angles but I'd be willing to bet that the most common one is boiled frogs. If you really take a step back and actually look at what it requires to get started in this game's PvP it is absolutely insane.

First and foremost is what it takes to even have a chance at walking in with a viable character. That right there will drive away almost any potential new player immediately. Then there are the myriad of little things that each of us have learned over years of being subjected to them. And I don't even mean real skills, per se. Just dumb stuff like learning ways to mitigate "death by double doors", or breakfree being unreliable so maybe you want to use a Champion point for that, or that the Champion point for breakfree is bugged and sometimes doesn't work or it charges you for stam anyway, or how certain targeted skills simply do not work once lag kicks in so you'd better have a different build for primetime in a crowded keep fight.

Diundriel wrote: »

Siege needs to be nerfed

Absolutely not. Part of the reason the game is so dead is because siege can't efficiently threaten ball groups. The Vengeance test showed what happens in zergs when siege is too weak, it degenerates into a brainless numbers count because the 40 defenders have no tools to break up the open field 60 mans blobbed together outside the keep or in the yard.

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