How are we feeling about Subclassing?

Pixiepumpkin · May 30

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I know a lot of people are excited about the subclassing changes that are coming, but I'm honestly far more concerned that they're going to break something in a way that the game will not be able to be fixed if they do this. I see this as being power creep on steroids, and while that will be very fun and exciting in the short-term, in the longterm, unchecked powercreep or exponential leaps in power creep only leads to two things: 1) big nerfs coming down the road, and/or 2) content that is impossibly difficult from a mechanics perspective (and I am a player that loves mechanics!).

Nerfs will be problematic though because it's not the skill lines themselves that will be overpowerd, but certain combinations of skills that will be overpowered, which means nerfs aimed at decreasing the power of certain skill line/skill combs are only going to severely disadvantage those players who chose not to use a subclass skill line.

To me, this seems like a cheap gimmick they're trying in order to generate a short-term sense of excitement about the game, similar to scribing. But when scribing skills became "too strong" (a notion I disagreed with to begin with), they nerfed those good scribing skills into the ground so that there is far less incentive to use them, so what was even the point? I have a feeling subclassing will be much the same, except when they start nerfing stuff for subclassing's sake, it is going to be a severe detriment to the game. Nerfs to scribing didn't hurt the game as much because you don't NEED to use them, but when you start nerfing certain skill lines because they become way too powerful when combined with others, that is definitely going to do harm to those who don't even want to use the subclassing feature.

100%
I am thinking of buying stock in popcorn because I don't think we have ever seen the waves of backlashes on the horizon that we are about to see. This is going to be interesting.

LalMirchi · May 30

Grand- feather Crow Father said: "When strong winds blow, the weak fade away..."

Heronisan · May 30

I hate that they are destroying classes, but what makes me most mad is that this feature is incredibly not finished, they are putting out a unfinished mess for us to play in, and then going to use live data to fix all the problems that might show up.

Its unproffesional

katanagirl1 · May 30

I’ve just been skimming through the mountain of posts about this, not commenting much and having trouble finding the motivation to even log in and play lately.

As a mid-tier player, this is having the rug pulled out from under me. I got into vet hm trials about 2 years ago when the meta became somewhat stable, and there were only slight changes being made each update. I don’t enjoy spending hours in front of a trials dummy parsing away, and I don’t enjoy having to reconstruct gear sets over and over. There are some players who really live for that, but I suspect it is a very small fraction of the playerbase. I’m sure they have fun trying out a bunch of different possibilities. Sure, I could just grab a build online after the update and change my characters when it hits, but I am feeling the fatigue that has hit end game players many times before.

Casual players on here seem to be excited, but what about the casual players who don’t seek out builds online? I can imagine the overwhelming feeling when they start out the game will be even worse now. This is the main group who might benefit from this the most and it seems hard to say how it will go yet.

I had a wait and see attitude up til this point, but the change might be too much for me to want to continue. I’m not giving up as of yet, due to the investment I have in the game at this point, but I don’t have a good feeling about it now. I’ve had classes nerfed to the point where PvP and trials characters were reduced to daily crafting mules, but having all of my characters benched is too much to start over again, I fear.

Finedaible · May 30

I would say I am cautiously optimistic for now, though I am kind of worried about the "adjustments" to "outliers" a few months from now... ZoS does not have a track record that instills trust amongst its playerbase, and I suspect this could lead to singular class lines being heavily nerfed in a vacuum simply because sub-classing enables so much.

Pixiepumpkin · May 30

Finedaible wrote: »

I would say I am cautiously optimistic for now, though I am kind of worried about the "adjustments" to "outliers" a few months from now... ZoS does not have a track record that instills trust amongst its playerbase, and I suspect this could lead to singular class lines being heavily nerfed in a vacuum simply because sub-classing enables so much.

This is one of my primary concerns.

Balancing classes take a lot of development time. Making balancing worse (which subclassing 100% does) only increases their workload, unless they have no intent on balancing in the future.

Secondly. They have already shown that they will blanket nerf a class in order to keep a specific part of it from perfoming. A year and a half or so when Arcanists were nerfed, they made a blanket chance to nerf the class. The issue was stamina was insanely overperforming. The nerf however also affected magicka Arcanists, who were middle of the road regarding performance (arguably the most balanced)...that put them darn near to the bottom.

That shook my faith in ZOS ability to fine tune stamina vs magicka with classes. It was brought up to them and as history shows it fell on deaf ears.

Twohothardware · May 30

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I’ve just been skimming through the mountain of posts about this, not commenting much and having trouble finding the motivation to even log in and play lately.

As a mid-tier player, this is having the rug pulled out from under me. I got into vet hm trials about 2 years ago when the meta became somewhat stable, and there were only slight changes being made each update. I don’t enjoy spending hours in front of a trials dummy parsing away, and I don’t enjoy having to reconstruct gear sets over and over. There are some players who really live for that, but I suspect it is a very small fraction of the playerbase. I’m sure they have fun trying out a bunch of different possibilities. Sure, I could just grab a build online after the update and change my characters when it hits, but I am feeling the fatigue that has hit end game players many times before.

Casual players on here seem to be excited, but what about the casual players who don’t seek out builds online? I can imagine the overwhelming feeling when they start out the game will be even worse now. This is the main group who might benefit from this the most and it seems hard to say how it will go yet.

I had a wait and see attitude up til this point, but the change might be too much for me to want to continue. I’m not giving up as of yet, due to the investment I have in the game at this point, but I don’t have a good feeling about it now. I’ve had classes nerfed to the point where PvP and trials characters were reduced to daily crafting mules, but having all of my characters benched is too much to start over again, I fear.

Except that none of your characters are being benched. Every character that you've been able to run HM trials with will continue to be able to run the trials you've been doing and through subclassing any of your characters will be able to easily add additional DPS or support.

The ceiling is being raised with subclassing, not lowered. The average casual player is going to be able to more easily complete hard mode content. Even heavy attack builds using the new heavy attack mythic are going to be more viable in harder content.

Pixiepumpkin · May 30

Twohothardware wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I’ve just been skimming through the mountain of posts about this, not commenting much and having trouble finding the motivation to even log in and play lately.

As a mid-tier player, this is having the rug pulled out from under me. I got into vet hm trials about 2 years ago when the meta became somewhat stable, and there were only slight changes being made each update. I don’t enjoy spending hours in front of a trials dummy parsing away, and I don’t enjoy having to reconstruct gear sets over and over. There are some players who really live for that, but I suspect it is a very small fraction of the playerbase. I’m sure they have fun trying out a bunch of different possibilities. Sure, I could just grab a build online after the update and change my characters when it hits, but I am feeling the fatigue that has hit end game players many times before.

Casual players on here seem to be excited, but what about the casual players who don’t seek out builds online? I can imagine the overwhelming feeling when they start out the game will be even worse now. This is the main group who might benefit from this the most and it seems hard to say how it will go yet.

I had a wait and see attitude up til this point, but the change might be too much for me to want to continue. I’m not giving up as of yet, due to the investment I have in the game at this point, but I don’t have a good feeling about it now. I’ve had classes nerfed to the point where PvP and trials characters were reduced to daily crafting mules, but having all of my characters benched is too much to start over again, I fear.

Except that none of your characters are being benched. Every character that you've been able to run HM trials with will continue to be able to run the trials you've been doing and through subclassing any of your characters will be able to easily add additional DPS or support.

The ceiling is being raised with subclassing, not lowered. The average casual player is going to be able to more easily complete hard mode content. Even heavy attack builds using the new heavy attack mythic are going to be more viable in harder content.

Not for players who prefer to maintain their class identity.

For those who only use their avatar as a means to navigate the game world, this is fine.
For those who see their avatar as a citizen in the world, who has a name, home, mount, pet, outfit and class build to suit their identity, this is NOT fine.

Twohothardware · May 30

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I’ve just been skimming through the mountain of posts about this, not commenting much and having trouble finding the motivation to even log in and play lately.

As a mid-tier player, this is having the rug pulled out from under me. I got into vet hm trials about 2 years ago when the meta became somewhat stable, and there were only slight changes being made each update. I don’t enjoy spending hours in front of a trials dummy parsing away, and I don’t enjoy having to reconstruct gear sets over and over. There are some players who really live for that, but I suspect it is a very small fraction of the playerbase. I’m sure they have fun trying out a bunch of different possibilities. Sure, I could just grab a build online after the update and change my characters when it hits, but I am feeling the fatigue that has hit end game players many times before.

Casual players on here seem to be excited, but what about the casual players who don’t seek out builds online? I can imagine the overwhelming feeling when they start out the game will be even worse now. This is the main group who might benefit from this the most and it seems hard to say how it will go yet.

I had a wait and see attitude up til this point, but the change might be too much for me to want to continue. I’m not giving up as of yet, due to the investment I have in the game at this point, but I don’t have a good feeling about it now. I’ve had classes nerfed to the point where PvP and trials characters were reduced to daily crafting mules, but having all of my characters benched is too much to start over again, I fear.

Except that none of your characters are being benched. Every character that you've been able to run HM trials with will continue to be able to run the trials you've been doing and through subclassing any of your characters will be able to easily add additional DPS or support.

The ceiling is being raised with subclassing, not lowered. The average casual player is going to be able to more easily complete hard mode content. Even heavy attack builds using the new heavy attack mythic are going to be more viable in harder content.

Not for players who prefer to maintain their class identity.

For those who only use their avatar as a means to navigate the game world, this is fine.
For those who see their avatar as a citizen in the world, who has a name, home, mount, pet, outfit and class build to suit their identity, this is NOT fine.

People like that are roleplayers, they're not min maxers running the hardest hard mode Trials and PVP where you would be expected to use subclassing. For casual player activities like questing and dungeons subclassing is completely unnecessary because there have been no major nerfs to base classes.

Pixiepumpkin · May 30

Twohothardware wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I’ve just been skimming through the mountain of posts about this, not commenting much and having trouble finding the motivation to even log in and play lately.

As a mid-tier player, this is having the rug pulled out from under me. I got into vet hm trials about 2 years ago when the meta became somewhat stable, and there were only slight changes being made each update. I don’t enjoy spending hours in front of a trials dummy parsing away, and I don’t enjoy having to reconstruct gear sets over and over. There are some players who really live for that, but I suspect it is a very small fraction of the playerbase. I’m sure they have fun trying out a bunch of different possibilities. Sure, I could just grab a build online after the update and change my characters when it hits, but I am feeling the fatigue that has hit end game players many times before.

Casual players on here seem to be excited, but what about the casual players who don’t seek out builds online? I can imagine the overwhelming feeling when they start out the game will be even worse now. This is the main group who might benefit from this the most and it seems hard to say how it will go yet.

I had a wait and see attitude up til this point, but the change might be too much for me to want to continue. I’m not giving up as of yet, due to the investment I have in the game at this point, but I don’t have a good feeling about it now. I’ve had classes nerfed to the point where PvP and trials characters were reduced to daily crafting mules, but having all of my characters benched is too much to start over again, I fear.

Except that none of your characters are being benched. Every character that you've been able to run HM trials with will continue to be able to run the trials you've been doing and through subclassing any of your characters will be able to easily add additional DPS or support.

The ceiling is being raised with subclassing, not lowered. The average casual player is going to be able to more easily complete hard mode content. Even heavy attack builds using the new heavy attack mythic are going to be more viable in harder content.

Not for players who prefer to maintain their class identity.

For those who only use their avatar as a means to navigate the game world, this is fine.
For those who see their avatar as a citizen in the world, who has a name, home, mount, pet, outfit and class build to suit their identity, this is NOT fine.

People like that are roleplayers, they're not min maxers running the hardest hard mode Trials and PVP where you would be expected to use subclassing. For casual player activities like questing and dungeons subclassing is completely unnecessary because there have been no major nerfs to base classes.

1. I am that type of player (housing, outfits, mounts, names, lore, etc etc) and I still like to do content, even harder content. The issue is either I am not brought along because my DPS suffers (I am forced into using 1 bar builds) or I get kicked because my damage suffers or I get abuse because my damage suffers.

2. Casuals will also be hit by this because the power creep goes through the roof with subclassing. After a short period of time, this increased DPS will be EXPECTED by anyone running anything. Anyone running pure classes will be at a severe disadvantage and will be open to abuse.

tomofhyrule · May 30

Twohothardware wrote: »

Except that none of your characters are being benched. Every character that you've been able to run HM trials with will continue to be able to run the trials you've been doing and through subclassing any of your characters will be able to easily add additional DPS or support.

Let’s not pretend that there weren’t already some decent nerfs we already got (which kill DK sustain and no-Pet Sorc power). Yes, most high-end players can work around that, but some of the mid-level won’t be able to.

But there’s a bigger issue: if we are going to demand to keep playing what we played before, what’s making our groupmates keep us around? Everyone says that we can still play the same HMs we did before, but people don’t do trial HMs solo or with mindless NPCs. We have to work with our groups. And if we come in there and say “I don’t want to change because I’m comfortable and fully capable with this setup,” the group is also perfectly free to say “ok, so we’re dropping you because this other person does want to play meta and they do more damage/heals/etc. than you do.”

So if you don’t have a group anymore, are you really still able to run the trials you've been doing until now?

Pixiepumpkin · May 30

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Except that none of your characters are being benched. Every character that you've been able to run HM trials with will continue to be able to run the trials you've been doing and through subclassing any of your characters will be able to easily add additional DPS or support.

Let’s not pretend that there weren’t already some decent nerfs we already got (which kill DK sustain and no-Pet Sorc power). Yes, most high-end players can work around that, but some of the mid-level won’t be able to.

But there’s a bigger issue: if we are going to demand to keep playing what we played before, what’s making our groupmates keep us around? Everyone says that we can still play the same HMs we did before, but people don’t do trial HMs solo or with mindless NPCs. We have to work with our groups. And if we come in there and say “I don’t want to change because I’m comfortable and fully capable with this setup,” the group is also perfectly free to say “ok, so we’re dropping you because this other person does want to play meta and they do more damage/heals/etc. than you do.”

So if you don’t have a group anymore, are you really still able to run the trials you've been doing until now?

Exactly.

What the pro-subclassing folks do not think about or consider is that people are like water, they take the path of least resistance. Most people will take the easy way out when given the choice. This means that pure class players will be left behind because people who choose to subclass will get invited instead because the content will go down faster, reducing deaths, making trifecas easier, making runs faster etc etc.

I mean the whole issue of "fake tanks" illustrates this perfectly and proves the point. Any argument agaisnt this is conjecture because we have all faced the fake tank issues, which stems from impatience.

Same thing will happen to pure classes. They will be seen as the under class and treated accordingly.

Twohothardware · May 30

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I’ve just been skimming through the mountain of posts about this, not commenting much and having trouble finding the motivation to even log in and play lately.

As a mid-tier player, this is having the rug pulled out from under me. I got into vet hm trials about 2 years ago when the meta became somewhat stable, and there were only slight changes being made each update. I don’t enjoy spending hours in front of a trials dummy parsing away, and I don’t enjoy having to reconstruct gear sets over and over. There are some players who really live for that, but I suspect it is a very small fraction of the playerbase. I’m sure they have fun trying out a bunch of different possibilities. Sure, I could just grab a build online after the update and change my characters when it hits, but I am feeling the fatigue that has hit end game players many times before.

Casual players on here seem to be excited, but what about the casual players who don’t seek out builds online? I can imagine the overwhelming feeling when they start out the game will be even worse now. This is the main group who might benefit from this the most and it seems hard to say how it will go yet.

I had a wait and see attitude up til this point, but the change might be too much for me to want to continue. I’m not giving up as of yet, due to the investment I have in the game at this point, but I don’t have a good feeling about it now. I’ve had classes nerfed to the point where PvP and trials characters were reduced to daily crafting mules, but having all of my characters benched is too much to start over again, I fear.

Except that none of your characters are being benched. Every character that you've been able to run HM trials with will continue to be able to run the trials you've been doing and through subclassing any of your characters will be able to easily add additional DPS or support.

The ceiling is being raised with subclassing, not lowered. The average casual player is going to be able to more easily complete hard mode content. Even heavy attack builds using the new heavy attack mythic are going to be more viable in harder content.

Not for players who prefer to maintain their class identity.

For those who only use their avatar as a means to navigate the game world, this is fine.
For those who see their avatar as a citizen in the world, who has a name, home, mount, pet, outfit and class build to suit their identity, this is NOT fine.

People like that are roleplayers, they're not min maxers running the hardest hard mode Trials and PVP where you would be expected to use subclassing. For casual player activities like questing and dungeons subclassing is completely unnecessary because there have been no major nerfs to base classes.

1. I am that type of player (housing, outfits, mounts, names, lore, etc etc) and I still like to do content, even harder content. The issue is either I am not brought along because my DPS suffers (I am forced into using 1 bar builds) or I get kicked because my damage suffers or I get abuse because my damage suffers.

2. Casuals will also be hit by this because the power creep goes through the roof with subclassing. After a short period of time, this increased DPS will be EXPECTED by anyone running anything. Anyone running pure classes will be at a severe disadvantage and will be open to abuse.

If you're worried you're going to be left out of a specific type of content due to your DPS then what you should do is use the free Armory system in the game to create a build with subclassing just for that content. Subclassing is not a permanent change to your character. It's something you can swap on and off just like the sets you're running.

When you're in a hard mode Trial you're not thinking about your classes identity, you're focused on paying attention to mechanics and whether you can deal enough DPS to get through it. Then after you complete the Trial you can use the Armory to instantly swap back to your "pure" class for your other activities.

Pixiepumpkin · May 30

Twohothardware wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I’ve just been skimming through the mountain of posts about this, not commenting much and having trouble finding the motivation to even log in and play lately.

As a mid-tier player, this is having the rug pulled out from under me. I got into vet hm trials about 2 years ago when the meta became somewhat stable, and there were only slight changes being made each update. I don’t enjoy spending hours in front of a trials dummy parsing away, and I don’t enjoy having to reconstruct gear sets over and over. There are some players who really live for that, but I suspect it is a very small fraction of the playerbase. I’m sure they have fun trying out a bunch of different possibilities. Sure, I could just grab a build online after the update and change my characters when it hits, but I am feeling the fatigue that has hit end game players many times before.

Casual players on here seem to be excited, but what about the casual players who don’t seek out builds online? I can imagine the overwhelming feeling when they start out the game will be even worse now. This is the main group who might benefit from this the most and it seems hard to say how it will go yet.

I had a wait and see attitude up til this point, but the change might be too much for me to want to continue. I’m not giving up as of yet, due to the investment I have in the game at this point, but I don’t have a good feeling about it now. I’ve had classes nerfed to the point where PvP and trials characters were reduced to daily crafting mules, but having all of my characters benched is too much to start over again, I fear.

Except that none of your characters are being benched. Every character that you've been able to run HM trials with will continue to be able to run the trials you've been doing and through subclassing any of your characters will be able to easily add additional DPS or support.

The ceiling is being raised with subclassing, not lowered. The average casual player is going to be able to more easily complete hard mode content. Even heavy attack builds using the new heavy attack mythic are going to be more viable in harder content.

Not for players who prefer to maintain their class identity.

For those who only use their avatar as a means to navigate the game world, this is fine.
For those who see their avatar as a citizen in the world, who has a name, home, mount, pet, outfit and class build to suit their identity, this is NOT fine.

People like that are roleplayers, they're not min maxers running the hardest hard mode Trials and PVP where you would be expected to use subclassing. For casual player activities like questing and dungeons subclassing is completely unnecessary because there have been no major nerfs to base classes.

1. I am that type of player (housing, outfits, mounts, names, lore, etc etc) and I still like to do content, even harder content. The issue is either I am not brought along because my DPS suffers (I am forced into using 1 bar builds) or I get kicked because my damage suffers or I get abuse because my damage suffers.

2. Casuals will also be hit by this because the power creep goes through the roof with subclassing. After a short period of time, this increased DPS will be EXPECTED by anyone running anything. Anyone running pure classes will be at a severe disadvantage and will be open to abuse.

If you're worried you're going to be left out of a specific type of content due to your DPS then what you should do is use the free Armory system in the game to create a build with subclassing just for that content. Subclassing is not a permanent change to your character. It's something you can swap on and off just like the sets you're running.

When you're in a hard mode Trial you're not thinking about your classes identity, you're focused on paying attention to mechanics and whether you can deal enough DPS to get through it. Then after you complete the Trial you can use the Armory to instantly swap back to your "pure" class for your other activities.

Not acceptable. Why should pure class players be literally forced into playing something they don't want to simply to run content.

I have never in my life not been able to play what I want in any MMORPG since 2004 in order to be brought along.

Secondly. You gonna pay for an extra armory slot on all 20 of my characters? Gonna need 3 on each toon to be able to swap back and forth (I already use two on every character).

Twohothardware · May 30

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I’ve just been skimming through the mountain of posts about this, not commenting much and having trouble finding the motivation to even log in and play lately.

As a mid-tier player, this is having the rug pulled out from under me. I got into vet hm trials about 2 years ago when the meta became somewhat stable, and there were only slight changes being made each update. I don’t enjoy spending hours in front of a trials dummy parsing away, and I don’t enjoy having to reconstruct gear sets over and over. There are some players who really live for that, but I suspect it is a very small fraction of the playerbase. I’m sure they have fun trying out a bunch of different possibilities. Sure, I could just grab a build online after the update and change my characters when it hits, but I am feeling the fatigue that has hit end game players many times before.

Casual players on here seem to be excited, but what about the casual players who don’t seek out builds online? I can imagine the overwhelming feeling when they start out the game will be even worse now. This is the main group who might benefit from this the most and it seems hard to say how it will go yet.

I had a wait and see attitude up til this point, but the change might be too much for me to want to continue. I’m not giving up as of yet, due to the investment I have in the game at this point, but I don’t have a good feeling about it now. I’ve had classes nerfed to the point where PvP and trials characters were reduced to daily crafting mules, but having all of my characters benched is too much to start over again, I fear.

Except that none of your characters are being benched. Every character that you've been able to run HM trials with will continue to be able to run the trials you've been doing and through subclassing any of your characters will be able to easily add additional DPS or support.

The ceiling is being raised with subclassing, not lowered. The average casual player is going to be able to more easily complete hard mode content. Even heavy attack builds using the new heavy attack mythic are going to be more viable in harder content.

Not for players who prefer to maintain their class identity.

For those who only use their avatar as a means to navigate the game world, this is fine.
For those who see their avatar as a citizen in the world, who has a name, home, mount, pet, outfit and class build to suit their identity, this is NOT fine.

People like that are roleplayers, they're not min maxers running the hardest hard mode Trials and PVP where you would be expected to use subclassing. For casual player activities like questing and dungeons subclassing is completely unnecessary because there have been no major nerfs to base classes.

1. I am that type of player (housing, outfits, mounts, names, lore, etc etc) and I still like to do content, even harder content. The issue is either I am not brought along because my DPS suffers (I am forced into using 1 bar builds) or I get kicked because my damage suffers or I get abuse because my damage suffers.

2. Casuals will also be hit by this because the power creep goes through the roof with subclassing. After a short period of time, this increased DPS will be EXPECTED by anyone running anything. Anyone running pure classes will be at a severe disadvantage and will be open to abuse.

If you're worried you're going to be left out of a specific type of content due to your DPS then what you should do is use the free Armory system in the game to create a build with subclassing just for that content. Subclassing is not a permanent change to your character. It's something you can swap on and off just like the sets you're running.

When you're in a hard mode Trial you're not thinking about your classes identity, you're focused on paying attention to mechanics and whether you can deal enough DPS to get through it. Then after you complete the Trial you can use the Armory to instantly swap back to your "pure" class for your other activities.

Not acceptable. Why should pure class players be literally forced into playing something they don't want to simply to run content.

I have never in my life not been able to play what I want in any MMORPG since 2004 in order to be brought along.

You've never in your life been told what class to play on or what sets you need to run or how much DPS you need to reach to get into a hard mode Trials? What Hard Mode Trial have you completed?

Pixiepumpkin · May 30

Twohothardware wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I’ve just been skimming through the mountain of posts about this, not commenting much and having trouble finding the motivation to even log in and play lately.

As a mid-tier player, this is having the rug pulled out from under me. I got into vet hm trials about 2 years ago when the meta became somewhat stable, and there were only slight changes being made each update. I don’t enjoy spending hours in front of a trials dummy parsing away, and I don’t enjoy having to reconstruct gear sets over and over. There are some players who really live for that, but I suspect it is a very small fraction of the playerbase. I’m sure they have fun trying out a bunch of different possibilities. Sure, I could just grab a build online after the update and change my characters when it hits, but I am feeling the fatigue that has hit end game players many times before.

Casual players on here seem to be excited, but what about the casual players who don’t seek out builds online? I can imagine the overwhelming feeling when they start out the game will be even worse now. This is the main group who might benefit from this the most and it seems hard to say how it will go yet.

I had a wait and see attitude up til this point, but the change might be too much for me to want to continue. I’m not giving up as of yet, due to the investment I have in the game at this point, but I don’t have a good feeling about it now. I’ve had classes nerfed to the point where PvP and trials characters were reduced to daily crafting mules, but having all of my characters benched is too much to start over again, I fear.

Except that none of your characters are being benched. Every character that you've been able to run HM trials with will continue to be able to run the trials you've been doing and through subclassing any of your characters will be able to easily add additional DPS or support.

The ceiling is being raised with subclassing, not lowered. The average casual player is going to be able to more easily complete hard mode content. Even heavy attack builds using the new heavy attack mythic are going to be more viable in harder content.

Not for players who prefer to maintain their class identity.

For those who only use their avatar as a means to navigate the game world, this is fine.
For those who see their avatar as a citizen in the world, who has a name, home, mount, pet, outfit and class build to suit their identity, this is NOT fine.

People like that are roleplayers, they're not min maxers running the hardest hard mode Trials and PVP where you would be expected to use subclassing. For casual player activities like questing and dungeons subclassing is completely unnecessary because there have been no major nerfs to base classes.

1. I am that type of player (housing, outfits, mounts, names, lore, etc etc) and I still like to do content, even harder content. The issue is either I am not brought along because my DPS suffers (I am forced into using 1 bar builds) or I get kicked because my damage suffers or I get abuse because my damage suffers.

2. Casuals will also be hit by this because the power creep goes through the roof with subclassing. After a short period of time, this increased DPS will be EXPECTED by anyone running anything. Anyone running pure classes will be at a severe disadvantage and will be open to abuse.

If you're worried you're going to be left out of a specific type of content due to your DPS then what you should do is use the free Armory system in the game to create a build with subclassing just for that content. Subclassing is not a permanent change to your character. It's something you can swap on and off just like the sets you're running.

When you're in a hard mode Trial you're not thinking about your classes identity, you're focused on paying attention to mechanics and whether you can deal enough DPS to get through it. Then after you complete the Trial you can use the Armory to instantly swap back to your "pure" class for your other activities.

Not acceptable. Why should pure class players be literally forced into playing something they don't want to simply to run content.

I have never in my life not been able to play what I want in any MMORPG since 2004 in order to be brought along.

You've never in your life been told what class to play on or what sets you need to run or how much DPS you need to reach to get into a hard mode Trials? What Hard Mode Trial have you completed?

ZERO because I am not brought along based on my build...this problem is exasperated with subclassing. The devs should be raising the floor and lowering the ceiling, not the opposite as sublcassing has proven.

But my MMORPG experience is not limited to ESO. WOW, SWTOR, Warahmmer Online, GW2, New World, and on and on.

In fact, in 2006 WOW, I ran a build that was completely devoid of any boost to my damage because of changes made to the game that the devs were not aware of. My voice was small, but I got someone in the community who had a voice with the devs to test what I discovered, they saw I was right and the class got a rework to solve the issue.

meanwhile, I still perfomred in the top 10% of the raid for damage dealers.

sans-culottes · May 30

@Twohothardware, I see what you’re attempting to do here, but this framing is deeply disingenuous.

You’re shifting the goalposts from a general critique of the systemic pressure subclassing introduces—particularly to players with class-anchored identities—to a narrow gatekeeping challenge: “What Hard Mode Trial have you completed?” As if critique is only valid once one passes some purity test of PvE résumé.

@Pixiepumpkin’s point was not about mechanical impossibility. It was about the cultural expectation creep that subclassing will catalyze. And that’s already visible: the assumption that not subclassing becomes a “choice” to gimp oneself. The claim that players can “just swap builds” sidesteps the issue entirely. The pressure to conform will not be theoretical. It will be social, structural, and ubiquitous.

And no, the solution is not “play pure when you’re not in content that matters.” For many of us, that is the content that matters. If the answer to this massive systems overhaul is “just compartmentalize your playstyle,” then the subclassing system has already undermined the fantasy it claims to expand.

Twohothardware · May 30

sans-culottes wrote: »

@Twohothardware, I see what you’re attempting to do here, but this framing is deeply disingenuous.

You’re shifting the goalposts from a general critique of the systemic pressure subclassing introduces—particularly to players with class-anchored identities—to a narrow gatekeeping challenge: “What Hard Mode Trial have you completed?” As if critique is only valid once one passes some purity test of PvE résumé.

The critique is simply that if you're not currently completing any of the newer hard mode Trials then getting upset about subclassing makes no sense because the only place you would be expected to use subclassing is in the hardest content in the game. Everywhere else you can continue running your characters however you want because base classes have not been nerfed by any noticeable amount.

Pixiepumpkin · May 30

Twohothardware wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

@Twohothardware, I see what you’re attempting to do here, but this framing is deeply disingenuous.

You’re shifting the goalposts from a general critique of the systemic pressure subclassing introduces—particularly to players with class-anchored identities—to a narrow gatekeeping challenge: “What Hard Mode Trial have you completed?” As if critique is only valid once one passes some purity test of PvE résumé.

The critique is simply that if you're not currently completing any of the newer hard mode Trials then getting upset about subclassing makes no sense because the only place you would be expected to use subclassing is in the hardest content in the game. Everywhere else you can continue running your characters however you want because base classes have not been nerfed by any noticeable amount.

1. I am not currently completing the content because I am not allowed to participate based on my build (one bar heavy attack oakensoul). Not completing content and the desire to do the content are not mutually exclusive.
2. The power creep will filter down from hardmode trials to everyday dungeons. This has been the case with every update that releases more DPS into the game.

Subclassing just takes this to ridiculous levels, further segregating the community instead of bringing the community together.

sans-culottes · May 30

Twohothardware wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

@Twohothardware, I see what you’re attempting to do here, but this framing is deeply disingenuous.

You’re shifting the goalposts from a general critique of the systemic pressure subclassing introduces—particularly to players with class-anchored identities—to a narrow gatekeeping challenge: “What Hard Mode Trial have you completed?” As if critique is only valid once one passes some purity test of PvE résumé.

The critique is simply that if you're not currently completing any of the newer hard mode Trials then getting upset about subclassing makes no sense because the only place you would be expected to use subclassing is in the hardest content in the game. Everywhere else you can continue running your characters however you want because base classes have not been nerfed by any noticeable amount.

No, that’s not how expectation systems work.

The pressure to conform doesn’t originate solely in cutting-edge raid teams. It trickles down. What starts in “the hardest content” becomes a baseline assumption for performance everywhere else. We’ve seen this cycle repeatedly with light attack weaving, meta sets, parse culture. Subclassing just accelerates the same dynamic.

You keep insisting that “base classes haven’t been nerfed.” But that’s not the point. They’ve been relativistically nerfed. Once subclass builds surpass pure classes in flexibility or throughput, players who maintain class identity will be viewed as underperforming, whether they’re doing casual DLC dungeons or vet trials. That’s how community standards metastasize.

And let’s not pretend this lands on a level playing field. Necromancer continues to suffer from structural issues that have gone unaddressed for multiple patch cycles. The subclassing system widens the gulf. It doesn’t empower choice; it redefines the baseline and marginalizes anyone who resists it.

Twohothardware · May 30

The framing of this entire argument stems from poor development decisions with ESO from the beginning because set classes don't exist in other Elder Scrolls games.

If you play Skyrim or Oblivion your character can evolve into using whatever weapons or skills you want throughout your time playing. Subclassing gets back to allowing more freedom to evolve your character as you progress instead of being forever locked to one set of skills.

Pixiepumpkin · May 30

sans-culottes wrote: »

You keep insisting that “base classes haven’t been nerfed.”

Actually they have on the PTS. Pure classes will actually do WORSE on monday than they currently do in game.

I am not sure to the extent, but I know pure classes have had nerfs/changes to facilitate the implementation of subclassing.

*edited for formatting

sans-culottes · May 30

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

You keep insisting that “base classes haven’t been nerfed.”

Actually they have on the PTS. Pure classes will actually do WORSE on monday than they currently do in game.

I am not sure to the extent, but I know pure classes have had nerfs/changes to facilitate the implementation of subclassing.

*edited for formatting

To clarify, I was agreeing with you.

Pixiepumpkin · May 30

Twohothardware wrote: »

The framing of this entire argument stems from poor development decisions with ESO from the beginning because set classes don't exist in other Elder Scrolls games.

If you play Skyrim or Oblivion your character can evolve into using whatever weapons or skills you want throughout your time playing. Subclassing gets back to allowing more freedom to evolve your character as you progress instead of being forever locked to one set of skills.

1. First point is irrelevant.
2. ESO is an online game, its right there in the name Elder Scrolls ONLINE. Single player games have different requirements than multiplayer games.

Pixiepumpkin · May 30

sans-culottes wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

You keep insisting that “base classes haven’t been nerfed.”

Actually they have on the PTS. Pure classes will actually do WORSE on monday than they currently do in game.

I am not sure to the extent, but I know pure classes have had nerfs/changes to facilitate the implementation of subclassing.

*edited for formatting

To clarify, I was agreeing with you.

Ohh, I know. I just wanted to point out that the scenario is actually worse than being described here come monday.

You know I love ya!

Twohothardware · May 30

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

You keep insisting that “base classes haven’t been nerfed.”

Actually they have on the PTS. Pure classes will actually do WORSE on monday than they currently do in game.

I am not sure to the extent, but I know pure classes have had nerfs/changes to facilitate the implementation of subclassing.

*edited for formatting

None of the classes on PTS have been nerfed by any noticeable measure outside of a couple of percent on test dummies. The nerfs were mostly done to address stacking issues with subclassing. Arcanist received the biggest class nerf with a 40% cost increase to Beam and Arcanist is still the best PvE class.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

The framing of this entire argument stems from poor development decisions with ESO from the beginning because set classes don't exist in other Elder Scrolls games.

If you play Skyrim or Oblivion your character can evolve into using whatever weapons or skills you want throughout your time playing. Subclassing gets back to allowing more freedom to evolve your character as you progress instead of being forever locked to one set of skills.

1. First point is irrelevant.
2. ESO is an online game, its right there in the name Elder Scrolls ONLINE. Single player games have different requirements than multiplayer games.

ESO is an online game based on the existing Elder Scrolls franchise. There's no set classes rule for multiplayer games.

sans-culottes · May 30

Twohothardware wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

You keep insisting that “base classes haven’t been nerfed.”

Actually they have on the PTS. Pure classes will actually do WORSE on monday than they currently do in game.

I am not sure to the extent, but I know pure classes have had nerfs/changes to facilitate the implementation of subclassing.

*edited for formatting

None of the classes on PTS have been nerfed by any noticeable measure outside of a couple of percent on test dummies. The nerfs were mostly done to address stacking issues with subclassing. Arcanist received the biggest class nerf with a 40% cost increase to Beam and Arcanist is still the best PvE class.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

The framing of this entire argument stems from poor development decisions with ESO from the beginning because set classes don't exist in other Elder Scrolls games.

If you play Skyrim or Oblivion your character can evolve into using whatever weapons or skills you want throughout your time playing. Subclassing gets back to allowing more freedom to evolve your character as you progress instead of being forever locked to one set of skills.

1. First point is irrelevant.
2. ESO is an online game, its right there in the name Elder Scrolls ONLINE. Single player games have different requirements than multiplayer games.

ESO is an online game based on the existing Elder Scrolls franchise. There's no set classes rule for multiplayer games.

You know, I keep having this strange feeling. Maybe, just maybe, someone might have mentioned a few minor issues with the Necromancer class.

Possibly once. Possibly in every balance thread for the past year. Possibly across multiple patches where the class received little more than bandaids and vague promises. Possibly while Sorcerer got the occasional nod, and Arcanist (even with cost adjustments) still reigns as the best PvE option.

But sure. Let’s wave away those concerns because “none of the classes were nerfed by any noticeable measure.” That argument falls apart the moment you stop pretending “noticeable” means “to you.”

And this whole “Skyrim lets you be anything” talking point? It has been dragged out so many times it should come with a walking cane. Skyrim’s flexibility was a design for a solitary sandbox RPG. ESO, as you helpfully reminded us, is an online game. It has team roles, composition pressures, group finder requirements, and meta-driven expectations.

Subclassing does not recreate the magic of Morrowind or Oblivion. It manufactures a performance treadmill, where pure-class players are steadily reclassified as obsolete. One patch at a time.

Pixiepumpkin · May 30

Twohothardware wrote: »

None of the classes on PTS have been nerfed by any noticeable measure outside of a couple of percent on test dummies. The nerfs were mostly done to address stacking issues with subclassing. Arcanist received the biggest class nerf with a 40% cost increase to Beam and Arcanist is still the best PvE class.

*Stamina Arcanist. The nerf also affects magicka who are not overperforming...deja vu

Twohothardware wrote: »

ESO is an online game based on the existing Elder Scrolls franchise. There's no set classes rule for multiplayer games.

Actually, there are quite a few mechanics/rules that need to be maintained in order to promote fair and balanced gameplay, social cohesion and player retention.

xylena_lazarow · May 30

Soarora wrote: »

Because to be the best, you must

Isn't there always a narrow meta that obligates players run something other than their favorite to compete?

Twohothardware · May 30

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Because to be the best, you must

Isn't there always a narrow meta that obligates players run something other than their favorite to compete?

There absolutely is. You join any serious hard mode Trials group and you're going to be expected to be on a specific class running a selection of specific sets that provide the needed group buffs. The idea that subclassing is this big change from that is nonsense.