Daoin wrote: »

joergino wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Like U35 I fully expect another end game exodus...

I expect to see an exodus of all types of players.

I keep seeing players eager to return because of Subclassing. Update 35's combat changes didn't inspire people to return like Update 46's combat changes will.

On the forum it's exactly one player who's eager to return.

thats not true, i have seen aleast 3 people eager to return and atleast 10 existing players hyped about it all on forum alone

My post was meant more in jest than to be taken literally, which is why I have added a smiley. But it's really only been one player who had caught my eye. There might be a lot more on non-general subfora obviously, but I usually don't have time for more than an occasional casual glance at a forum like PTS.

Any impact subclassing has on difficulty is a side effect of system. It is not the primary intention to make the game easier or harder with subclassing, it is just opening up the games build system, so that players can match their gameplay/RPG preferences more accurately.

In that sense there is no conflict between subclassing and overland difficutly per se. They can always be balanced against each other.

And lastly, any type of balancing change can impact your current character. That has been happening non stop to people since launch. That is not a specific downside of the current changes.

sans-culottes wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Any impact subclassing has on difficulty is a side effect of system. It is not the primary intention to make the game easier or harder with subclassing, it is just opening up the games build system, so that players can match their gameplay/RPG preferences more accurately.

In that sense there is no conflict between subclassing and overland difficutly per se. They can always be balanced against each other.

And lastly, any type of balancing change can impact your current character. That has been happening non stop to people since launch. That is not a specific downside of the current changes.

This is a tidy deflection that doesn’t hold up.

Subclassing may not intend to alter difficulty, but it does. Intention doesn’t excuse consequence. You can’t expand player power and simultaneously claim there’s no systemic impact on balance. That’s a design outcome.

And framing it as just another balancing change is equally disingenuous. Routine adjustments fine-tune existing parameters. Subclassing rewires the foundation. Pretending it’s business as usual is a convenient way to downplay its structural implications.

If anything, then it’s precisely the magnitude of the change that warrants scrutiny.

This is just debating for the sake of debating. Two projects with clearly independent goals conflicting during their conceptualization/implementation doesn't automatically mean that one project invalidates the other. You may be unhappy that the content is shipped at such a stage, that is valid. You may have criticism for each of those projects independently, that is also fair.
Currently we don't know what their plans for overland difficulty are. We have also been made aware that balancing related to subclassing is still a work in progress.
For these reasons alone, it is pointless to discuss the implications of subclassing on a unknown/non-existent system.
Will it make overland even easier for some builds for the time being? Yes. Does it matter at all? Probably not. Would I like overland to be challenging? Yes, but this wasn't the premise of the thread.

What's the point in worrying about a system we know is coming but we don't know anything about? We don't even know what exactly about Overland content will be changed to make it harder.

And what does this have to do with Subclassing? Maybe Harder Overland doesn't actually change enemy health and damage, but changes something unrelated to combat. That would mean Subclassing would be completely irrelevant in the discussion of Harder Overland.

SilverBride wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

What's the point in worrying about a system we know is coming but we don't know anything about? We don't even know what exactly about Overland content will be changed to make it harder.

And what does this have to do with Subclassing? Maybe Harder Overland doesn't actually change enemy health and damage, but changes something unrelated to combat. That would mean Subclassing would be completely irrelevant in the discussion of Harder Overland.

I feel it's better to bring up potential issues before these systems are set in stone than to wait until a problem arises and try to fix it then.

But what potential issues are there? How can we know what potential issues there will be if we have no idea what the plans are for what will be changed and how it will be changed?

SilverBride wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I feel it's better to bring up potential issues before these systems are set in stone than to wait until a problem arises and try to fix it then.

But what potential issues are there? How can we know what potential issues there will be if we have no idea what the plans are for what will be changed and how it will be changed?

The issue I presented in my original post.

Like I mentioned in a previous post, Harder Overland might not even have anything to do with combat, and thus Subclassing and Harder Overland wouldn't cancel one another out.

There's nothing to discuss without further information on Harder Overland.

All we really know is that ZOS says Harder Overland will "probably" be opt-in.

If your concern is that Subclassing will cancel out Harder Overland, then how does that affect anyone who opts out of Harder Overland? Why does it matter to the people who opt in to Harder Overland — does it make Harder Overland too easy for them? Does that matter to someone who opts out?

What's the solution here? Should Harder Overland be made harder to compensate? What would that mean? Should Subclassing be nerfed instead — would that fix the problem?

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

The subclassing will cause massive nerfs which result in harder overland whether you like it or not and especially if you don’t use subclassing. My prediction.

Harder overland being worked on currently is a separate thing entirely.

It's already happened, just see SkinnyCheek's latest video: nerfs to Pillagers to counter the crazy level of new ulti gen and a host of other ones.
If you play your regular set up in patch 46, you'll be slapping like a pillow.

I took a break after last Christmas, and I have been excited to come back and try subclassing when it lands, but I also saw a video from Deltia on the same thing. I have 4 toons fully-kitted: a sorc and an arc DPS, a DK tank, and a templar healer. (I also have one toon from each of the other classes, but a few of their skill lines aren't fully leveled and morphed.) These 4 "mains" are FULLY equipped for vet trials. Each one is carrying sets, monster sets, arena weapons, and mythics to put together any combo that could be reasonably asked for.

As anyone who has done it can attest, it has taken an ENORMOUS investment to do this. I guess one set disappearing from the meta wouldn't be the end of the world. After all, for Pillagers, we're "just" talking about the second healer/flex spot. But everything I'm reading about subclassing seems like it's going to send ripple effects across the entire meta. Now that I stop and think about it, I really don't want to grind out all the weapons on a bunch of new sets (and run a bunch of pledges to rebuild my stockpile of transmutes), and I'm rapidly losing interest in coming back.

Elvenheart wrote: »

Since you mentioned Deltia, I just want to mention that one day ago he put out a new video on YouTube saying that that he was wrong in his initial assessment of Subclassing and that he’s been playing with it on the PTS and has found it much better and more fun and interesting than he originally thought it would be. He goes on to describe everything in more detail if you are interested. 🙂

I thought the video I was thinking of was that one, but I was confused. I was thinking of one Nightharrow just made, pointing out the Pillager problem. He points out that the subclassing changes are going to make Pearls of Ehlnofey useless as well.

SilverBride wrote: »

I am not surprised that Deltia would enjoy subclassing since he is very proficient at creating builds. But I wonder how many "regular" players will want to take the time to do what it takes.

I imagine many "regular" players would want to play with Subclassing. I know people who aren't as heavily invested in creating builds who are considering returning to ESO for Subclassing. And I'm sure the regular "regular" players would love having extra freedom, too.

Daoin wrote: »

not to mention how many regular players simply just already left the game due to what subclassing actually is without needing convincing of anything, but on overland difficulty i imagine now it was an idea build arund subclassing to keep suclassing relevant overland aswell as normal mode to to also keep regular jo's interested in the game.

I hadn't thought of it that way, but it could be.

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

@SilverBride OK my feed back is for me it's good and my non subclassed Sorc has gained DPS and I now parse 95K (so about67-70K in boss fights) while using the sets and skills I run in content (not dummy humping gear!)

95K! Wow, oh my god, 95K!
95K can't even get into the HM Trials in most DLCs. On live LC HMs, you are usually required to have 105-110K before you are allowed to join the team.
PVE without considering end-game dps requirements is pointless, subclassing will not help people who are dying due to mechanics to easily finish the end-game, nor will it help the vast majority of people who are seriously behind in dps because these people don't know how to weave and build correctly.
Based on the current subclassing balance on the PTS, this will only widen the gap between the ceiling and the floor, and pull the pure class average down.
This is the conclusion I came to after testing it for over 100 hours on pts.

I think the sweats are just mad because they gotta start over and be knocked down from there pedestal. And that's a good thing I've been playing since 2014 I've taken long breaks because I was not happy with pvp mainly but with these changes the meta will be what I decide because of the mass amount of builds sub classing will bring.