Subclassing was not meant for us.

El_Borracho · April 30

Wildberryjack wrote: »

I'm as casual a player as it gets and I can't wait for subclassing. I don't care if players with BIS gear will be able to do insane damage, I just hope they're in my dungeons runs! The only place this will matter is PvP so they will need to keep an eye on that but otherwise I don't see subclassing being a problem.

While I understand this sentiment, this is the problem with anything that gives players a massive increase in DPS overnight. I remember when you needed a tank to run a base veteran dungeon. Now you can solo base vet dungeons, all because of power creep. Subclassing, in this form, is power overload.

I want more players to be able to do endgame PVE. The community has never been huge, but it needs to grow. But endgame also needs to be hard. Beating a vet trial on hard mode should be hard because the content is not meant for everyone. Players who can not currently beat Hel Ra on hard mode should not be able to beat vet Dreadsails by simply slapping on a 170K DPS build they saw on YouTube. Or a tank that can shield everything.

And to the predictable reply from others, "But not everyone can do 170K DPS, even on that build," correct. But you can now do 120K DPS where you couldn't crack 90K before, without doing anything to improve how you play. This is an extension of the incorrect assumption of some players of, "If I only had [INSERT SET HERE], I would become a great DD." Subclassing will not make you better, it will only make content easier, which is a problem when endgame content is not supposed to be easy.

ESO has never been a button smasher. Subclassing, in this current proposed form, makes Oakensorcs look difficult to play.

As for PVP... HAHAHAHAHA. And people thought 60K health warden tanks were a problem

FoJul · April 30

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

@FoJul

Well, my biggest issue with this, is that even if there is a top 1% that may set the norm, I shouldn't have to be forced to play exactly like you to get those numbers. Every class should have potential to get those numbers. Different playstyles should be able to get those numbers.

I disagree with this. Every class should have their strengths and weaknesses, but just because an Arcanist can hit 130k doesn't mean that a NB also needs to hit 130k.

Every class should bring something unique and desirable to a group so that you WANT a great mix of classes and builds, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they should be equal on a 1 to 1 basis. The game isn't even like this now, but this is where I think they should go in the opposite direction of subclassing, which I see as more of a step towards homogenization. Instead, they should be buffing the subclasses to emphasize each class' strengths.

An example of this is the NB - why does the Templar and not the NB have the most devestating single target execute (Radiant oppression?). The nightblade ought to be a designated finisher character - the most deadly single-target damage character in the game, especially on the flanks. They should not only have the most devastating execute, but you should be able to execute earlier than other classes, and it should crit more often (or perhaps trigger a unique debuff that increases group damage).

They can take that kind of mentality and apply it to each of the classes so that they all bring something good and desirable to the table. Will they all hit for the same DPS or be capable of being great healers or tanks? No, but that is the point of classes. They all do something well and other things not so well.

A lot of people want to play this game where they only want to play 1 character, but this game really isn't like Skyrim or Oblivion where you have 1 character that can do everything. This is why we have so many character slots and its what gives the game a ton of replayability. Why would I have 11 characters if 1 character can do everything?

If they go down this road, then I can see them eliminating racial bonuses as well - because that will be one of the only things creating any differences in characters...

IMO, they ought to be leaning in more into class identity, not implementing things that will ultimately marginalize them.

If they go in either direction, it's better than what it is now.

You are still missing the entire point though; you are specifically saying that each class should have a designated role. (AKA 1 playstyle). That is not healthy for anyone besides the top 1% who don't care about classes or skills, they just want output.

If I play a PvE nightblade, Im not using killers blade. I love playing from range. I possibly will use J-beam, but im not sticking to melee nightblade.

All classes do bring specific things in situations, but I don't want to be required to being a buff bot as a DPS. Thats how most classes are played outside of arcanist rn. Since arcanist can do the most damage, you run 4 arcs or more and then buff bots.

If my rangeblade could do 130k and provide healer support, would that be enough? This prolly wouldn't happen but let the environment change.

Those top 1% players complain about everything being stale and boring. Well you have been playing the same way since Necrom dropped.

El_Borracho · April 30

Those top 1% players complain about everything being stale and boring. Well you have been playing the same way since Necrom dropped.

@FoJul You just identified why subclassing will not make things better. The Arcanist made doing DPS easier. A tanky, self-healing beast that can crank out 100K+ without even trying. Which caused most DDs to shift to Arcanist, because why gimp yourself. Which removed more options than it created for "play the way you want."

Subclassing will do one of two things: (1) make everything a joke, or (2) cause everything to be nerfed. Either way, the result will be one meta build, because that's how things have gone since Necrom.

No, there will not be more options, despite it appearing that there are infinite options. The BiS for ultimates, executes, spammables, shields, etc. will make all other obsolete. Heck, you said it yourself. Why play melee when you can do everything from range... just like Arcanists do now, but now with Jesus Beam.

I do agree that there needs to be changes to undo the Necrom homogenization of play. But making everyone Thanos is not that change

ArchMikem · April 30

There is a very simple fix to this that many might see as a nerf, but,

Just drop the number of replaceable skill lines to one.

2 Main Class Trees
1 Subclassed Tree

I don't know why they didn't go that way to begin with.

FoJul · April 30

El_Borracho wrote: »

Those top 1% players complain about everything being stale and boring. Well you have been playing the same way since Necrom dropped.

@FoJul You just identified why subclassing will not make things better. The Arcanist made doing DPS easier. A tanky, self-healing beast that can crank out 100K+ without even trying. Which caused most DDs to shift to Arcanist, because why gimp yourself. Which removed more options than it created for "play the way you want."

Subclassing will do one of two things: (1) make everything a joke, or (2) cause everything to be nerfed. Either way, the result will be one meta build, because that's how things have gone since Necrom.

No, there will not be more options, despite it appearing that there are infinite options. The BiS for ultimates, executes, spammables, shields, etc. will make all other obsolete. Heck, you said it yourself. Why play melee when you can do everything from range... just like Arcanists do now, but now with Jesus Beam.

I do agree that there needs to be changes to undo the Necrom homogenization of play. But making everyone Thanos is not that change

Making everyone Thanos made me chuckle, good one. But what I'm trying to say, is that If I want to use swallow soul as my spammable, but still want to have SOME cleave for trash, allow me tor grab up another skill line that will do just that. Or if I want to do more DoT damage, and remove proc sets from my build.

I have access to make a better build suited for MY playstyle, not YOURS. Will i obtain Arc DPS numbers. No, but I will get better numbers than I have gotten in a while.

Not every class is going to do arcanist DPS.

In my eyes, I think arcanist needs to be gutted. Maybe this argument will finally end.

Also, Hybridization was more of a reason people play 1 build, rather than it just being arcanist coming out.

Horace-Wimp · April 30

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

...I think forum posters generally represent no more than 5% of the playerbase...

I tend to agree. We are a dying breed. Kids today.

Warhawke_80 · April 30

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

So we're seeing DD with 170k dps parses, tanks with 160k damage shield and so on..
There is a fair number of people posting that subclassing cannot go ahead because it will break this game.

The thing is, if you are on this forum you are a minority player. I think forum posters generally represent no more than 5% of the playerbase. Most of my guildies who are active on discord do not have a forum account because they don't concern themselves with the latest patch update. Many of them only really notice the changes when something major has been nerfed (e.g. Jabs in patch 35 or Werewold tanking) and has a large enough impact to be noticed while doing their dailies.

So the issue is this: endgame is a broken mess before patch 46 and that isn't really going to change. But you can't balance a game around a small minority of players when the money is elsewhere.

FYI:
160k shield build

Wow...Your post drips with defeatism, as if the game's already doomed and nothing can be done. Claiming endgame is a "broken mess" before patch 46 without evidence is just hyperbolic whining—sounds like you're preemptively giving up. And the idea that subclassing will "break" the game? That's absurdly alarmist. Games evolve, mechanics shift; players adapt. Dismissing the forum as a tiny 5% minority while ignoring its role as a hub for engaged, vocal players is lazy—those "guildies" on Discord aren't the full picture either. Balancing for the majority doesn't mean ignoring the endgame; it means finding a sweet spot. Writing it all off as hopeless just sounds like you're shouting into the void for attention.

Seriously bro..It’s like you and those high-parse elitists are only happy when the game's tuned to keep casuals out, hoarding your precious 170k DPS and 160k shields. Balancing for the masses doesn't mean screwing the endgame; it means making it accessible without catering to a few tryhards who love gatekeeping the average player from the fun. Quit acting like the sky's falling just to keep the riffraff out of your exclusive club.

I’m lucky to hit 90k with my arcanist, but I was in a trials group. It’s not that the standards are set to keep people out, everybody has to meet them to get in.

End game players don’t care if a patch helps more casual players get better, if it does then there are more players who can get into trials and that’s a good thing.

Your comments make it sound like you think trial leaders are out to get you. It’s not about you, it’s about the team. With an attitude like the one you are describing, it would be almost impossible to get in anyway.

High parsing players won’t be hurt by this, they always find a way to keep pushing the envelope. It will demotivate the mid tier players and they will feel the nerfs the most just like with the “raising the floor and lowering the ceiling” did.

Hey, I gotta push back on your take—it’s coming off a bit elitist and misses what’s really going on. Flexing 90k DPS on your arcanist in a trials group? That’s honestly not cutting it for most serious teams who need higher numbers to clear without wiping. Those trial standards aren’t there to gatekeep; they’re about making sure the whole group doesn’t crash and burn. But you’re way off thinking a patch boosting casuals will just flood trials with ready players. DPS is only part of it—knowing mechanics, working as a team, and staying sharp matter just as much, and no patch is gonna gift-wrap that.

You’re twisting things by saying people think trial leaders are out to get them. Nobody’s saying that. The real issue is nerfs like “raising the floor, lowering the ceiling” that squish the skill gap and make mid-tier players—who bust their butts to get better—feel like their progress doesn’t matter. Won’t someone think of the poor mid-tier players? Your post kinda waves them off, acting like they should just deal with it while you and other top parsers “always find a way” to stay ahead. That’s got an elitist vibe, like the rest of the player base’s struggles don’t count as long as the high-end crowd’s fine.

Look, it’s not about bad attitudes—it’s about game changes that sap motivation for tons of players, not just the mid-tiers you’re shrugging at. Respectfully, your view feels disconnected from what most of the community’s grappling with, and it’s not really helping the convo. Let’s dig into the real problems instead.

El_Borracho · April 30

FoJul wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Those top 1% players complain about everything being stale and boring. Well you have been playing the same way since Necrom dropped.

@FoJul You just identified why subclassing will not make things better. The Arcanist made doing DPS easier. A tanky, self-healing beast that can crank out 100K+ without even trying. Which caused most DDs to shift to Arcanist, because why gimp yourself. Which removed more options than it created for "play the way you want."

Subclassing will do one of two things: (1) make everything a joke, or (2) cause everything to be nerfed. Either way, the result will be one meta build, because that's how things have gone since Necrom.

No, there will not be more options, despite it appearing that there are infinite options. The BiS for ultimates, executes, spammables, shields, etc. will make all other obsolete. Heck, you said it yourself. Why play melee when you can do everything from range... just like Arcanists do now, but now with Jesus Beam.

I do agree that there needs to be changes to undo the Necrom homogenization of play. But making everyone Thanos is not that change

Making everyone Thanos made me chuckle, good one. But what I'm trying to say, is that If I want to use swallow soul as my spammable, but still want to have SOME cleave for trash, allow me tor grab up another skill line that will do just that. Or if I want to do more DoT damage, and remove proc sets from my build.

I have access to make a better build suited for MY playstyle, not YOURS. Will i obtain Arc DPS numbers. No, but I will get better numbers than I have gotten in a while.

Not every class is going to do arcanist DPS.

In my eyes, I think arcanist needs to be gutted. Maybe this argument will finally end.

Also, Hybridization was more of a reason people play 1 build, rather than it just being arcanist coming out.

All true. And as much as I loved my Arcanist when it came out, I've come to see it as the mistake that it is in terms of the overall quality of the game. I lump hybridization and the Arcanist together, as one, as my "Stam Arc" is the model of hybridization. Even more than the DKs that first came out after hybridization.

I would love to have multiple viable builds, as this game was when I first started playing with Vvardenfell. But with the ever-present push for making higher DPS numbers easier to obtain, I don't see that happening. I hope I am wrong about subclassing, but the way everything has gone in the last couple of years, its just going to be constantly nerfing the OP meta while trying to somehow satisfy the need for 100k+ for everyone.

Hawco10 · April 30

I hardly ever post on here and tbh, can’t remember the last time I did. Anyway, just wanted to comment that subclassing will be the end for me. It’s a step too far and I know it’s just my opinion and I’m just one guy etc. but felt I had to say something as I’ve been playing this game since day 1.
Anyway, peace out everyone and good luck to ESO down the road.

katanagirl1 · May 1

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

So we're seeing DD with 170k dps parses, tanks with 160k damage shield and so on..
There is a fair number of people posting that subclassing cannot go ahead because it will break this game.

The thing is, if you are on this forum you are a minority player. I think forum posters generally represent no more than 5% of the playerbase. Most of my guildies who are active on discord do not have a forum account because they don't concern themselves with the latest patch update. Many of them only really notice the changes when something major has been nerfed (e.g. Jabs in patch 35 or Werewold tanking) and has a large enough impact to be noticed while doing their dailies.

So the issue is this: endgame is a broken mess before patch 46 and that isn't really going to change. But you can't balance a game around a small minority of players when the money is elsewhere.

FYI:
160k shield build

Wow...Your post drips with defeatism, as if the game's already doomed and nothing can be done. Claiming endgame is a "broken mess" before patch 46 without evidence is just hyperbolic whining—sounds like you're preemptively giving up. And the idea that subclassing will "break" the game? That's absurdly alarmist. Games evolve, mechanics shift; players adapt. Dismissing the forum as a tiny 5% minority while ignoring its role as a hub for engaged, vocal players is lazy—those "guildies" on Discord aren't the full picture either. Balancing for the majority doesn't mean ignoring the endgame; it means finding a sweet spot. Writing it all off as hopeless just sounds like you're shouting into the void for attention.

Seriously bro..It’s like you and those high-parse elitists are only happy when the game's tuned to keep casuals out, hoarding your precious 170k DPS and 160k shields. Balancing for the masses doesn't mean screwing the endgame; it means making it accessible without catering to a few tryhards who love gatekeeping the average player from the fun. Quit acting like the sky's falling just to keep the riffraff out of your exclusive club.

I’m lucky to hit 90k with my arcanist, but I was in a trials group. It’s not that the standards are set to keep people out, everybody has to meet them to get in.

End game players don’t care if a patch helps more casual players get better, if it does then there are more players who can get into trials and that’s a good thing.

Your comments make it sound like you think trial leaders are out to get you. It’s not about you, it’s about the team. With an attitude like the one you are describing, it would be almost impossible to get in anyway.

High parsing players won’t be hurt by this, they always find a way to keep pushing the envelope. It will demotivate the mid tier players and they will feel the nerfs the most just like with the “raising the floor and lowering the ceiling” did.

I posted earlier in the thread to try to understand this and no one replied, so here goes again:

Will there be more builds that are endgame viable, or will there not be?

That's my bottom line. I consider myself a mid-tier player who is kept out of endgame (or doesn't meet the standards for endgame) because of the theme I've chosen to run. If there are more total number of endgame-viable builds after subclassing than there are now, that means that more people like me have a chance of getting in because they run those themes.

If there are fewer endgame-viable builds than there are now, then that's bad.

Point of definition: there will always be the same number of best builds, because 'best' presupposes 'uniqueness' semantically. I'm not looking for best, just viable.

There will certainly be a greater number of possible builds with subclassing, but the problem is guys who do the testing come up with one build that is the best for each class and put it on their sites. The trial leads use that as the build they want for each class, generally. I assume they don’t want to have to keep a list handy of dozens of builds that are not quite as good but still useable. At least that has been my experience. There may be other groups that are more flexible for various reasons depending on the content and the goal.

The problem is with more possibilities, there is a broader range of builds that people will want to play than before but still the leads will want their group members to play one that is on a site of a well known community member who creates builds. Does that help the player? Probably not.

katanagirl1 · May 1

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

So we're seeing DD with 170k dps parses, tanks with 160k damage shield and so on..
There is a fair number of people posting that subclassing cannot go ahead because it will break this game.

The thing is, if you are on this forum you are a minority player. I think forum posters generally represent no more than 5% of the playerbase. Most of my guildies who are active on discord do not have a forum account because they don't concern themselves with the latest patch update. Many of them only really notice the changes when something major has been nerfed (e.g. Jabs in patch 35 or Werewold tanking) and has a large enough impact to be noticed while doing their dailies.

So the issue is this: endgame is a broken mess before patch 46 and that isn't really going to change. But you can't balance a game around a small minority of players when the money is elsewhere.

FYI:
160k shield build

Wow...Your post drips with defeatism, as if the game's already doomed and nothing can be done. Claiming endgame is a "broken mess" before patch 46 without evidence is just hyperbolic whining—sounds like you're preemptively giving up. And the idea that subclassing will "break" the game? That's absurdly alarmist. Games evolve, mechanics shift; players adapt. Dismissing the forum as a tiny 5% minority while ignoring its role as a hub for engaged, vocal players is lazy—those "guildies" on Discord aren't the full picture either. Balancing for the majority doesn't mean ignoring the endgame; it means finding a sweet spot. Writing it all off as hopeless just sounds like you're shouting into the void for attention.

Seriously bro..It’s like you and those high-parse elitists are only happy when the game's tuned to keep casuals out, hoarding your precious 170k DPS and 160k shields. Balancing for the masses doesn't mean screwing the endgame; it means making it accessible without catering to a few tryhards who love gatekeeping the average player from the fun. Quit acting like the sky's falling just to keep the riffraff out of your exclusive club.

I’m lucky to hit 90k with my arcanist, but I was in a trials group. It’s not that the standards are set to keep people out, everybody has to meet them to get in.

End game players don’t care if a patch helps more casual players get better, if it does then there are more players who can get into trials and that’s a good thing.

Your comments make it sound like you think trial leaders are out to get you. It’s not about you, it’s about the team. With an attitude like the one you are describing, it would be almost impossible to get in anyway.

High parsing players won’t be hurt by this, they always find a way to keep pushing the envelope. It will demotivate the mid tier players and they will feel the nerfs the most just like with the “raising the floor and lowering the ceiling” did.

Hey, I gotta push back on your take—it’s coming off a bit elitist and misses what’s really going on. Flexing 90k DPS on your arcanist in a trials group? That’s honestly not cutting it for most serious teams who need higher numbers to clear without wiping. Those trial standards aren’t there to gatekeep; they’re about making sure the whole group doesn’t crash and burn. But you’re way off thinking a patch boosting casuals will just flood trials with ready players. DPS is only part of it—knowing mechanics, working as a team, and staying sharp matter just as much, and no patch is gonna gift-wrap that.

You’re twisting things by saying people think trial leaders are out to get them. Nobody’s saying that. The real issue is nerfs like “raising the floor, lowering the ceiling” that squish the skill gap and make mid-tier players—who bust their butts to get better—feel like their progress doesn’t matter. Won’t someone think of the poor mid-tier players? Your post kinda waves them off, acting like they should just deal with it while you and other top parsers “always find a way” to stay ahead. That’s got an elitist vibe, like the rest of the player base’s struggles don’t count as long as the high-end crowd’s fine.

Look, it’s not about bad attitudes—it’s about game changes that sap motivation for tons of players, not just the mid-tiers you’re shrugging at. Respectfully, your view feels disconnected from what most of the community’s grappling with, and it’s not really helping the convo. Let’s dig into the real problems instead.

No, I’m using my humble 90k dps on an arcanist that can do way more damage (like 135k I think) in other player’s hands as the fact that I am mid tier. Our team managed to get Dro-m’Athra Destroyer and only a couple of our team members could do more dps than that.

You’re the one who talked about gatekeeping. I hate that term. Do people say that med school is gatekeeping those who can’t score high enough to get in? Is it gatekeeping to not let people on the track team because they can’t run fast enough?

I am not an elitist. I struggled with 65k on my stamblade before arcanist came out. I can’t light weave worth a crap because I’m nearly 60 years old and my hands hurt.

You’re talking to the wrong person here.

moderatelyfatman · May 1

[/quote]

No, I’m using my humble 90k dps on an arcanist that can do way more damage (like 135k I think) in other player’s hands as the fact that I am mid tier. Our team managed to get Dro-m’Athra Destroyer and only a couple of our team members could do more dps than that.

You’re the one who talked about gatekeeping. I hate that term. Do people say that med school is gatekeeping those who can’t score high enough to get in? Is it gatekeeping to not let people on the track team because they can’t run fast enough?

I am not an elitist. I struggled with 65k on my stamblade before arcanist came out. I can’t light weave worth a crap because I’m nearly 60 years old and my hands hurt.

You’re talking to the wrong person here.
[/quote]

Umm... you know that stamblade is traditionally one of the hardest rotations? It looks like you're comparing the hardest rotation with one of the easiest.
I remember when my Necro hit level 50 I did a parse and got 80k but never played necro dps again. The parse basically killed my hands and my necro is now a PUG dungeon healer.
But I used to play on Warden and Templar without any issue.

moderatelyfatman · May 1

Erickson9610 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

cmetzger93 wrote: »

As a semi-casual player - I'm very excited about it. Being locked into a class was not very "Elder Scrollsy" and over the years has prevented me from enjoying the game.

That's because those are single player games. Who cares if your character is broken in a solo game.

PvP is already broken. Just look at what ball groups are able to achieve when working together. Compare that with the experience on the Vengeance campaign (where balance existed) and it's night and day.

Subclassing will only make the experience different. It won't make it worse than it already is.

Ummm..... you don't think Ballgroups have the tendency and ability to abuse broken and unbalanced rules even more than single players?
This is going to be a net loss to most players in PvP.

As for Vengeance, I want an alternative to either all sets and skills with a broken PvP and the blandness of Vengeance.

katanagirl1 · May 1

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

No, I’m using my humble 90k dps on an arcanist that can do way more damage (like 135k I think) in other player’s hands as the fact that I am mid tier. Our team managed to get Dro-m’Athra Destroyer and only a couple of our team members could do more dps than that.

You’re the one who talked about gatekeeping. I hate that term. Do people say that med school is gatekeeping those who can’t score high enough to get in? Is it gatekeeping to not let people on the track team because they can’t run fast enough?

I am not an elitist. I struggled with 65k on my stamblade before arcanist came out. I can’t light weave worth a crap because I’m nearly 60 years old and my hands hurt.

You’re talking to the wrong person here.
[/quote]

Umm... you know that stamblade is traditionally one of the hardest rotations? It looks like you're comparing the hardest rotation with one of the easiest.
I remember when my Necro hit level 50 I did a parse and got 80k but never played necro dps again. The parse basically killed my hands and my necro is now a PUG dungeon healer.
But I used to play on Warden and Templar without any issue.

[/quote]

———————————————————————————————————————————————
Stamblade was my main at the time, other toons were PvP (except for an Oakensoul sorc). I still play her, just overland content without light weaving. At the time she was still pre-hybridization build with mostly weapons skills and still is. I love that because the skills line up nicely since the durations are mostly the same. I knew she would never be viable for trials once we finished running on normal so I was looking to make another character anyway.

I made a necro for trials to replace her, but yes the constant bar swapping along with the light attacking killed my hands. The necro rotation is so much worse than stamblade.

Once I recovered, arcanist was fairly new so I made one and now I run all harder content with her.

EDIT: the previous broken quoting messed mine up

Pixiepumpkin · May 1

Hawco10 wrote: »

I hardly ever post on here and tbh, can’t remember the last time I did. Anyway, just wanted to comment that subclassing will be the end for me. It’s a step too far and I know it’s just my opinion and I’m just one guy etc. but felt I had to say something as I’ve been playing this game since day 1.
Anyway, peace out everyone and good luck to ESO down the road.

I feel the same way, my wife feels the same way. There are a plethora of people here, on reddit, on you tube and other social media channels all saying the same. But hey, out money is spent time to leech on the wallet of a new player base.

Thysbe · May 1

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

But hey, out money is spent time to leech on the wallet of a new player base.

Lets see if alienating faithful long term subscribers for the sake of fresh blood who move on to the next fancy thing asap is a smart decision in the long run.

Daoin · May 1

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

No, I’m using my humble 90k dps on an arcanist that can do way more damage (like 135k I think) in other player’s hands as the fact that I am mid tier. Our team managed to get Dro-m’Athra Destroyer and only a couple of our team members could do more dps than that.

You’re the one who talked about gatekeeping. I hate that term. Do people say that med school is gatekeeping those who can’t score high enough to get in? Is it gatekeeping to not let people on the track team because they can’t run fast enough?

I am not an elitist. I struggled with 65k on my stamblade before arcanist came out. I can’t light weave worth a crap because I’m nearly 60 years old and my hands hurt.

You’re talking to the wrong person here.
[/quote]

Umm... you know that stamblade is traditionally one of the hardest rotations? It looks like you're comparing the hardest rotation with one of the easiest.
I remember when my Necro hit level 50 I did a parse and got 80k but never played necro dps again. The parse basically killed my hands and my necro is now a PUG dungeon healer.
But I used to play on Warden and Templar without any issue.

[/quote]

a humble 90k ? lol 90k dps is so far above humble its out of sight, and talking about 65k on a nightblabe tells me that its a fact theres nothing humble here, adding mag and stam before a shot out in the past class name does not hide the power creep over the years and wont convince anyone classes still exist in eso. already time to look past subclassing also now its done its damage to existing players and if deveopers think this is a good idea for a next gen of players then good on them and i hope it shows in the end (on a personal note also just to chip something totally irrelevent in, another case of humbleness in my world would be to admit the words magblade and stamblade sound silly spoken from the adult tounge and magplar is/was even worse !) for me personally i can say those exact words never once passed my lips irl. the pure class name wont stick either a player was either one class or the another. tellng players they can choose to stay pureclass, but...likely hastened thier departures. the correct wording would have been the 'original' class but then that also shows classes are now part of the past. still not sure adding and mixing every flavour to one product is a great thing but what do i know

Elowen_Starveil · May 1

Thysbe wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

But hey, out money is spent time to leech on the wallet of a new player base.

Lets see if alienating faithful long term subscribers for the sake of fresh blood who move on to the next fancy thing asap is a smart decision in the long run.

I didn't write that quote; Pixiepumpkin did, but I agree with the sentiment. It's a calculated gamble: will subclassing bring in more people than it drives away? I think it will. I'm "out" at the moment, and the FOMO is quiet now, but if first reactions when this drops are like, yeah, there's crazy power creep, and it's easy to pull off, I'm coming back to see for myself.

TaSheen · May 1

Fixed quoting:

katanagirl1 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

No, I’m using my humble 90k dps on an arcanist that can do way more damage (like 135k I think) in other player’s hands as the fact that I am mid tier. Our team managed to get Dro-m’Athra Destroyer and only a couple of our team members could do more dps than that.

You’re the one who talked about gatekeeping. I hate that term. Do people say that med school is gatekeeping those who can’t score high enough to get in? Is it gatekeeping to not let people on the track team because they can’t run fast enough?

I am not an elitist. I struggled with 65k on my stamblade before arcanist came out. I can’t light weave worth a crap because I’m nearly 60 years old and my hands hurt.

You’re talking to the wrong person here.

Umm... you know that stamblade is traditionally one of the hardest rotations? It looks like you're comparing the hardest rotation with one of the easiest.
I remember when my Necro hit level 50 I did a parse and got 80k but never played necro dps again. The parse basically killed my hands and my necro is now a PUG dungeon healer.
But I used to play on Warden and Templar without any issue.

———————————————————————————————————————————————
Stamblade was my main at the time, other toons were PvP (except for an Oakensoul sorc). I still play her, just overland content without light weaving. At the time she was still pre-hybridization build with mostly weapons skills and still is. I love that because the skills line up nicely since the durations are mostly the same. I knew she would never be viable for trials once we finished running on normal so I was looking to make another character anyway.

I made a necro for trials to replace her, but yes the constant bar swapping along with the light attacking killed my hands. The necro rotation is so much worse than stamblade.

Once I recovered, arcanist was fairly new so I made one and now I run all harder content with her.

EDIT: the previous broken quoting messed mine up

BXR_Lonestar · May 1

FoJul wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

@FoJul

Well, my biggest issue with this, is that even if there is a top 1% that may set the norm, I shouldn't have to be forced to play exactly like you to get those numbers. Every class should have potential to get those numbers. Different playstyles should be able to get those numbers.

I disagree with this. Every class should have their strengths and weaknesses, but just because an Arcanist can hit 130k doesn't mean that a NB also needs to hit 130k.

Every class should bring something unique and desirable to a group so that you WANT a great mix of classes and builds, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they should be equal on a 1 to 1 basis. The game isn't even like this now, but this is where I think they should go in the opposite direction of subclassing, which I see as more of a step towards homogenization. Instead, they should be buffing the subclasses to emphasize each class' strengths.

An example of this is the NB - why does the Templar and not the NB have the most devestating single target execute (Radiant oppression?). The nightblade ought to be a designated finisher character - the most deadly single-target damage character in the game, especially on the flanks. They should not only have the most devastating execute, but you should be able to execute earlier than other classes, and it should crit more often (or perhaps trigger a unique debuff that increases group damage).

They can take that kind of mentality and apply it to each of the classes so that they all bring something good and desirable to the table. Will they all hit for the same DPS or be capable of being great healers or tanks? No, but that is the point of classes. They all do something well and other things not so well.

A lot of people want to play this game where they only want to play 1 character, but this game really isn't like Skyrim or Oblivion where you have 1 character that can do everything. This is why we have so many character slots and its what gives the game a ton of replayability. Why would I have 11 characters if 1 character can do everything?

If they go down this road, then I can see them eliminating racial bonuses as well - because that will be one of the only things creating any differences in characters...

IMO, they ought to be leaning in more into class identity, not implementing things that will ultimately marginalize them.

If they go in either direction, it's better than what it is now.

You are still missing the entire point though; you are specifically saying that each class should have a designated role. (AKA 1 playstyle). That is not healthy for anyone besides the top 1% who don't care about classes or skills, they just want output.

If I play a PvE nightblade, Im not using killers blade. I love playing from range. I possibly will use J-beam, but im not sticking to melee nightblade.

All classes do bring specific things in situations, but I don't want to be required to being a buff bot as a DPS. Thats how most classes are played outside of arcanist rn. Since arcanist can do the most damage, you run 4 arcs or more and then buff bots.

If my rangeblade could do 130k and provide healer support, would that be enough? This prolly wouldn't happen but let the environment change.

Those top 1% players complain about everything being stale and boring. Well you have been playing the same way since Necrom dropped.

I'm not saying "designated roles" to the point where a templar can only heal, a DK can only tank, etc. But each class should be very proficient in performing a couple of roles, whether that be tank and DPS, or Heal and DPS - and for they should do so because they are proficient at different things, like single target dps vs. AOE dps vs. DOT damage vs. status effect stacking.
For tanking/survivability, there's multiple ways to do it too - Heavy armor and damage reduction, sutained blocking, self heals and sustain, shielding, etc.

I mean how awesome would it be if they had a class/class skill line so juiced up that you could have a character tank in light armor - similar to a monk in a DND game? They just agro the boss and have such good self-heals and shields that the lack of heavy armor doesn't even matter. These are the kinds of things they need to do IMO. Really lean into class identities, exagerate what they are supposed to do well, as well as what they DON'T do well so you can't really make a "perfect" character, you just have to learn to play around their strengths and weaknesses.

And to keep things in check, in PVP, each class should have two nemesis. Meaning they take extra damage from those specific classes, so that there is almost like a rock-paper-scissors balancing between all the classes, and there is no unkillable class - you just need to be rolling with the right mix of classes.

Pixiepumpkin · May 1

TaSheen wrote: »

but yes the constant bar swapping along with the light attacking killed my hands. The necro rotation is so much worse than stamblade.

This is what I don't understand about weaving and the act of implementing it vs fixing the bug that it was.

Its a mechanic that reeks havoc on the hands and anyone suffering from arthritis, age aches and pains, or even a young but worn body, can not deal with. Its literally painful to do.

This is the kind of stuff that should be weeded out in the brainstorming stage of design. Its a bad idea, regardless of how many like it, its not inclusive to the community as a whole and literal bullying in game has happened countless times against those who do not weave (witnesses this first hand on multiple occasions).

TaSheen · May 1

@Pixiepumpkin - that was katanagirl1's statement, not mine, though my hands are also an issue with weaving. And as well, why I have universally gone to 1 bar builds.

Daoin · May 1

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

but yes the constant bar swapping along with the light attacking killed my hands. The necro rotation is so much worse than stamblade.

This is what I don't understand about weaving and the act of implementing it vs fixing the bug that it was.

Its a mechanic that reeks havoc on the hands and anyone suffering from arthritis, age aches and pains, or even a young but worn body, can not deal with. Its literally painful to do.

This is the kind of stuff that should be weeded out in the brainstorming stage of design. Its a bad idea, regardless of how many like it, its not inclusive to the community as a whole and literal bullying in game has happened countless times against those who do not weave (witnesses this first hand on multiple occasions).

they are not bullies they are nerds, bully is too much of a compliment. either way aslong as weaving/ani canc does not effect everyone those who enjoy it should do that. other than the trial dummies its not hurting anyone and has helped to raise standards of play in its time though. those that offered it as advice and a way to improve damage without forcing it down others throats were just trying to do a good thing. dont get me wrong im still crap at it but thats because i enjoy animations among other things, especially animations that used to be class specific. will feel wierd watching some outcast nightblade trying to be something else. but once the giggles die down it will be the norm again. weaving and getting as much damage on a dummy as possible. even if a person was rubbish at it just trying it and taking advice worked on everyone to get dps higher and thus gamplay more enjoyable. bar swapping is a very exciting part of the learning process and 1 bar builds do not help with that so rather than support one bar builds my advice to almost everyone would be to take advice from those who are good at weaving and ani cancelling over jumping into 1 bar builds for a more fun time in the long run. advice can be hard to swallow for some or just plain pushed on people by others but done correctly is all good. and looking back at your parse not even knowing where some of those light attacks came from is well idk, general rule of thumb for me has been anyone you meet at random all of a sudden goes insane on the group monitoring thier damage was probably treated like that from someone else and still thinks all players do that. it can look as though that is where it all stems from but its not like that. the general thing is the more damage you can press out as fast as possible the more fun content is and to be honest that is true even if always not needed and will deny writing this too, this message will soon self destruct

Pixiepumpkin · May 1

TaSheen wrote: »

@Pixiepumpkin - that was katanagirl1's statement, not mine, though my hands are also an issue with weaving. And as well, why I have universally gone to 1 bar builds.

Gotcha. I thought I saw some thread fixing in there, but I was confused.

I can't weave for a myriad of reasons. Latancy for one, pain in hands for 2, the shaking of my mouse while I am also using it to move for 3.

but ya, same here. 1 bar builds across the board. Sadly the diversity offered is sub optimal. Oakensoul needs to be buffed big time.

For one. Oakensoul should open up a 6th slot. So 6 abilities and 1 ult. The design reason for weapon swapping was to facilitate the need of console controllers who are limited in their actionable buttons.

There is a button to swap bars on console. This button would be mapped to the 6th ability. Of course PC can bind that anywhere they like.

The one think I hate about oakensoul is the missing of utility.

I see it like this regarding what we need on any given one bar build:

• Execute spell
• Heal
• Shield
• Spammable
• Dot
• AOE
• Utility
• Ultimate

So even if Oakensoul was given 1 more slot, it would still fall flat of what is required for gameplay at any given encounter.

Daoin · May 1

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

@Pixiepumpkin - that was katanagirl1's statement, not mine, though my hands are also an issue with weaving. And as well, why I have universally gone to 1 bar builds.

Gotcha. I thought I saw some thread fixing in there, but I was confused.

I can't weave for a myriad of reasons. Latancy for one, pain in hands for 2, the shaking of my mouse while I am also using it to move for 3.

but ya, same here. 1 bar builds across the board. Sadly the diversity offered is sub optimal. Oakensoul needs to be buffed big time.

For one. Oakensoul should open up a 6th slot. So 6 abilities and 1 ult. The design reason for weapon swapping was to facilitate the need of console controllers who are limited in their actionable buttons.

There is a button to swap bars on console. This button would be mapped to the 6th ability. Of course PC can bind that anywhere they like.

The one think I hate about oakensoul is the missing of utility.

I see it like this regarding what we need on any given one bar build:

• Execute spell
• Heal
• Shield
• Spammable
• Dot
• AOE
• Utility
• Ultimate

So even if Oakensoul was given 1 more slot, it would still fall flat of what is required for gameplay at any given encounter.

slow and steady wins the race, yes but HA builds are not for everyone for a very good reason. they are just not exciting for alot of players and to be honest should not even be near 2 bar weaving numbers of dps although also not underperform as to accomodate a certain playstyle

Pixiepumpkin · May 1

Daoin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

@Pixiepumpkin - that was katanagirl1's statement, not mine, though my hands are also an issue with weaving. And as well, why I have universally gone to 1 bar builds.

Gotcha. I thought I saw some thread fixing in there, but I was confused.

I can't weave for a myriad of reasons. Latancy for one, pain in hands for 2, the shaking of my mouse while I am also using it to move for 3.

but ya, same here. 1 bar builds across the board. Sadly the diversity offered is sub optimal. Oakensoul needs to be buffed big time.

For one. Oakensoul should open up a 6th slot. So 6 abilities and 1 ult. The design reason for weapon swapping was to facilitate the need of console controllers who are limited in their actionable buttons.

There is a button to swap bars on console. This button would be mapped to the 6th ability. Of course PC can bind that anywhere they like.

The one think I hate about oakensoul is the missing of utility.

I see it like this regarding what we need on any given one bar build:

• Execute spell
• Heal
• Shield
• Spammable
• Dot
• AOE
• Utility
• Ultimate

So even if Oakensoul was given 1 more slot, it would still fall flat of what is required for gameplay at any given encounter.

slow and steady wins the race, yes but HA builds are not for everyone for a very good reason. they are just not exciting for alot of players and to be honest should not even be near 2 bar weaving numbers of dps although also not underperform as to accomodate a certain playstyle

Oakensoul should not be relegated to heavy attacks and I completely disagree that a one bar build should not perform near 2 bar weaving numbers.

This is not a matter of being lazy, this is a matter of accessibility

TaSheen · May 1

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

@Pixiepumpkin - that was katanagirl1's statement, not mine, though my hands are also an issue with weaving. And as well, why I have universally gone to 1 bar builds.

Gotcha. I thought I saw some thread fixing in there, but I was confused.

I can't weave for a myriad of reasons. Latancy for one, pain in hands for 2, the shaking of my mouse while I am also using it to move for 3.

but ya, same here. 1 bar builds across the board. Sadly the diversity offered is sub optimal. Oakensoul needs to be buffed big time.

For one. Oakensoul should open up a 6th slot. So 6 abilities and 1 ult. The design reason for weapon swapping was to facilitate the need of console controllers who are limited in their actionable buttons.

There is a button to swap bars on console. This button would be mapped to the 6th ability. Of course PC can bind that anywhere they like.

The one think I hate about oakensoul is the missing of utility.

I see it like this regarding what we need on any given one bar build:

• Execute spell
• Heal
• Shield
• Spammable
• Dot
• AOE
• Utility
• Ultimate

So even if Oakensoul was given 1 more slot, it would still fall flat of what is required for gameplay at any given encounter.

slow and steady wins the race, yes but HA builds are not for everyone for a very good reason. they are just not exciting for alot of players and to be honest should not even be near 2 bar weaving numbers of dps although also not underperform as to accomodate a certain playstyle

Oakensoul should not be relegated to heavy attacks and I completely disagree that a one bar build should not perform near 2 bar weaving numbers.

This is not a matter of being lazy, this is a matter of accessibility

Actually, I hate HA playstyle; my 1 bar Oak builds are not using HA at all.

Pixiepumpkin · May 1

TaSheen wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

@Pixiepumpkin - that was katanagirl1's statement, not mine, though my hands are also an issue with weaving. And as well, why I have universally gone to 1 bar builds.

Gotcha. I thought I saw some thread fixing in there, but I was confused.

I can't weave for a myriad of reasons. Latancy for one, pain in hands for 2, the shaking of my mouse while I am also using it to move for 3.

but ya, same here. 1 bar builds across the board. Sadly the diversity offered is sub optimal. Oakensoul needs to be buffed big time.

For one. Oakensoul should open up a 6th slot. So 6 abilities and 1 ult. The design reason for weapon swapping was to facilitate the need of console controllers who are limited in their actionable buttons.

There is a button to swap bars on console. This button would be mapped to the 6th ability. Of course PC can bind that anywhere they like.

The one think I hate about oakensoul is the missing of utility.

I see it like this regarding what we need on any given one bar build:

• Execute spell
• Heal
• Shield
• Spammable
• Dot
• AOE
• Utility
• Ultimate

So even if Oakensoul was given 1 more slot, it would still fall flat of what is required for gameplay at any given encounter.

slow and steady wins the race, yes but HA builds are not for everyone for a very good reason. they are just not exciting for alot of players and to be honest should not even be near 2 bar weaving numbers of dps although also not underperform as to accomodate a certain playstyle

Oakensoul should not be relegated to heavy attacks and I completely disagree that a one bar build should not perform near 2 bar weaving numbers.

This is not a matter of being lazy, this is a matter of accessibility

Actually, I hate HA playstyle; my 1 bar Oak builds are not using HA at all.

I don't mind it and its proven to be the highest DPS out of any one bar build I could make so its good for solo stuff and whatnot.

I used to play my magicka arcanist until they nerfed the class when magicka did not need a nerf. Go figure that one out.

Daoin · May 1

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

@Pixiepumpkin - that was katanagirl1's statement, not mine, though my hands are also an issue with weaving. And as well, why I have universally gone to 1 bar builds.

Gotcha. I thought I saw some thread fixing in there, but I was confused.

I can't weave for a myriad of reasons. Latancy for one, pain in hands for 2, the shaking of my mouse while I am also using it to move for 3.

but ya, same here. 1 bar builds across the board. Sadly the diversity offered is sub optimal. Oakensoul needs to be buffed big time.

For one. Oakensoul should open up a 6th slot. So 6 abilities and 1 ult. The design reason for weapon swapping was to facilitate the need of console controllers who are limited in their actionable buttons.

There is a button to swap bars on console. This button would be mapped to the 6th ability. Of course PC can bind that anywhere they like.

The one think I hate about oakensoul is the missing of utility.

I see it like this regarding what we need on any given one bar build:

• Execute spell
• Heal
• Shield
• Spammable
• Dot
• AOE
• Utility
• Ultimate

So even if Oakensoul was given 1 more slot, it would still fall flat of what is required for gameplay at any given encounter.

slow and steady wins the race, yes but HA builds are not for everyone for a very good reason. they are just not exciting for alot of players and to be honest should not even be near 2 bar weaving numbers of dps although also not underperform as to accomodate a certain playstyle

Oakensoul should not be relegated to heavy attacks and I completely disagree that a one bar build should not perform near 2 bar weaving numbers.

This is not a matter of being lazy, this is a matter of accessibility

does not matter much anymore mate im sure absolutely everyone is going to find something in a classless system that fits in the way they want it to just fine. im 100% opposed too this update but that does not mean i can honestly say when im parsing on my chars im not always thinking another one of my chars skills would fit in better somewhere

Pixiepumpkin · May 1

Daoin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

@Pixiepumpkin - that was katanagirl1's statement, not mine, though my hands are also an issue with weaving. And as well, why I have universally gone to 1 bar builds.

Gotcha. I thought I saw some thread fixing in there, but I was confused.

I can't weave for a myriad of reasons. Latancy for one, pain in hands for 2, the shaking of my mouse while I am also using it to move for 3.

but ya, same here. 1 bar builds across the board. Sadly the diversity offered is sub optimal. Oakensoul needs to be buffed big time.

For one. Oakensoul should open up a 6th slot. So 6 abilities and 1 ult. The design reason for weapon swapping was to facilitate the need of console controllers who are limited in their actionable buttons.

There is a button to swap bars on console. This button would be mapped to the 6th ability. Of course PC can bind that anywhere they like.

The one think I hate about oakensoul is the missing of utility.

I see it like this regarding what we need on any given one bar build:

• Execute spell
• Heal
• Shield
• Spammable
• Dot
• AOE
• Utility
• Ultimate

So even if Oakensoul was given 1 more slot, it would still fall flat of what is required for gameplay at any given encounter.

slow and steady wins the race, yes but HA builds are not for everyone for a very good reason. they are just not exciting for alot of players and to be honest should not even be near 2 bar weaving numbers of dps although also not underperform as to accomodate a certain playstyle

Oakensoul should not be relegated to heavy attacks and I completely disagree that a one bar build should not perform near 2 bar weaving numbers.

This is not a matter of being lazy, this is a matter of accessibility

does not matter much anymore mate im sure absolutely everyone is going to find something in a classless system that fits in the way they want it to just fine

No, I'll be finding my fun back on my hunter in WOW when housing releases at the end of the year. I'll give subclassing a try, but I see very little appeal in it and I know for a fact battlegrounds are going to go extinct with the stupid amount of damage that will be put out.