Subclassing was not meant for us.

moderatelyfatman · April 29

So we're seeing DD with 170k dps parses, tanks with 160k damage shield and so on..
There is a fair number of people posting that subclassing cannot go ahead because it will break this game.

The thing is, if you are on this forum you are a minority player. I think forum posters generally represent no more than 5% of the playerbase. Most of my guildies who are active on discord do not have a forum account because they don't concern themselves with the latest patch update. Many of them only really notice the changes when something major has been nerfed (e.g. Jabs in patch 35 or Werewold tanking) and has a large enough impact to be noticed while doing their dailies.

So the issue is this: endgame is a broken mess before patch 46 and that isn't really going to change. But you can't balance a game around a small minority of players when the money is elsewhere.

FYI:
160k shield build

https://youtu.be/oOT1vAUFrWc?si=lGPOX_637iVyD1wN&t=712

Ragnarok0130 · April 29

I disagree and your post feels like defeatism. It is our duty to give feedback to try to affect positive change in the PTS regardless of if the devs actually listen *cough* looking at you U35. Yes forum dwellers are a minority but the concerns expressed by forum dwellers are the same as non-forum players even if they don’t express it in discord and act joyfully oblivious to the sword of Damocles hanging over their head. Non forum dwellers benefit directly from the community interaction and feedback with the devs regarding balance here on the forums.

The game has to be balanced around end game because end game (PVP/PVE) sets the standard for all of the normie players when they copy builds or decide on which sets to use in other areas of the game. Normal players benefit greatly from all of the theory crafting and build videos by end game players that help them complete solo content like IA and arenas. It is not healthy for end game to be too easy by getting a 40% DPS increase that trivializes end game content and it will result in an exodus of end game players - the negatives of which will trickle down to the normal game when the information that the normal players rely on to complete content dries up because those players are no longer playing ESO.

BXR_Lonestar · April 29

I have been saying this since subclassing has been announced. It will be a bad change for the game and it could be one that ultimately puts the nail in the coffin of endgame play for ESO - because I'd still come back to enjoy questlines.

Sure, broken subclassing will be fun - for a time. Being super OP will always feel fun for a time, and then they either have to scale up difficulty of new content to cater to the new power levels (not going to be fun for the average player), or they're going to have to nerf everything to the ground, at which point, what was even the point of subclassing to begin with? Neither option is good. This game isn't D&D and it is simply not build to be set up for subclassing.

They need to take this idea and put it on the back burner IMO and focus on something else to keep players more engaged. I'd rather see them get more creative with their set designs, incorporate more abilities from IA elsewhere in the game, etc.

And understand that Oblivion Remastered just released. I could easily sink 2k hours + into that game. So if they mess this up, players (like me) now have a good alternative to go to.

xylena_lazarow · April 29

It was meant for me. I've been asking for Streak on DK for a while now.

They've been catering to the top 1% and bottom 1% for a decade. That's why the combat is a mess. That's why we have a click story overworld, and an endgame that's hard gatekept by logistics before you even get to the skill demands. Subclassing is finally something for the middle 98% to have fun with, make new builds, clear new content. The top 1% will be in the same little bubble with another narrow inbred meta, just like u45, just like every other game everywhere.

old_scopie1945 · April 29

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I have been saying this since subclassing has been announced. It will be a bad change for the game and it could be one that ultimately puts the nail in the coffin of endgame play for ESO - because I'd still come back to enjoy questlines.

Sure, broken subclassing will be fun - for a time. Being super OP will always feel fun for a time, and then they either have to scale up difficulty of new content to cater to the new power levels (not going to be fun for the average player), or they're going to have to nerf everything to the ground, at which point, what was even the point of subclassing to begin with? Neither option is good. This game isn't D&D and it is simply not build to be set up for subclassing.

They need to take this idea and put it on the back burner IMO and focus on something else to keep players more engaged. I'd rather see them get more creative with their set designs, incorporate more abilities from IA elsewhere in the game, etc.

And understand that Oblivion Remastered just released. I could easily sink 2k hours + into that game. So if they mess this up, players (like me) now have a good alternative to go to.

Yep, back burner till 2125.

RealLoveBVB · April 29

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It was meant for me. I've been asking for Streak on DK for a while now.

Ah, that's how suggestions and wishes look nowadays.

(Also, could you ask if they would fix all the bugs and maybe also remove the cp cap? Would be an fast developed, as they design the game just for you).

Grega · April 29

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It was meant for me. I've been asking for Streak on DK for a while now.

They've been catering to the top 1% and bottom 1% for a decade. That's why the combat is a mess. That's why we have a click story overworld, and an endgame that's hard gatekept by logistics before you even get to the skill demands. Subclassing is finally something for the middle 98% to have fun with, make new builds, clear new content. The top 1% will be in the same little bubble with another narrow inbred meta, just like u45, just like every other game everywhere.

This could not be more false, and information/statistic here is completely made up.

licenturion · April 29

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It was meant for me. I've been asking for Streak on DK for a while now.

They've been catering to the top 1% and bottom 1% for a decade. That's why the combat is a mess. That's why we have a click story overworld, and an endgame that's hard gatekept by logistics before you even get to the skill demands. Subclassing is finally something for the middle 98% to have fun with, make new builds, clear new content. The top 1% will be in the same little bubble with another narrow inbred meta, just like u45, just like every other game everywhere.

This is very on point.

I have seen posts for years everywhere like 'why don't most people play veteran or hard mode content'.

Now some things might become a tiny bit easier with a new system (I said might because there is still a month of balancing time left)

And some people are losing it because some veteran content might get 8 percent easier for normal players. Let's cancel the whole system that has been worked on for more than a year. That is classic gatekeeping 101.

And wildly OP stuff they overlooked will probably get hotfixes anyway after a week. People can cry out how much they want for it to be cancelled, the system will come out anyway if you like it or not. Deep down you know it will, just like all the updates that came before.

RealLoveBVB · April 29

licenturion wrote: »

Now some things might become a tiny bit easier with a new system (I said might because there is still a month of balancing time left)

Will it? Even if the new system will allow 300k dps, players who couldn't maintain 12 skills and do a certain amount of dps, then they will also not be able to maintain 12 skills with 3 different skill lines.

licenturion wrote: »

People can cry out how much they want for it to be cancelled, the system will come out anyway if you like it or not. Deep down you know it will, just like all the updates that came before.

Your so called "crying" is actually giving feedback and pointing out harm points that are coming.
You know what? Paying customers are actually allowed to give feedback, as they are the ones who should be happy about the product.

FoJul · April 29

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I have been saying this since subclassing has been announced. It will be a bad change for the game and it could be one that ultimately puts the nail in the coffin of endgame play for ESO - because I'd still come back to enjoy questlines.

Sure, broken subclassing will be fun - for a time. Being super OP will always feel fun for a time, and then they either have to scale up difficulty of new content to cater to the new power levels (not going to be fun for the average player), or they're going to have to nerf everything to the ground, at which point, what was even the point of subclassing to begin with? Neither option is good. This game isn't D&D and it is simply not build to be set up for subclassing.

They need to take this idea and put it on the back burner IMO and focus on something else to keep players more engaged. I'd rather see them get more creative with their set designs, incorporate more abilities from IA elsewhere in the game, etc.

And understand that Oblivion Remastered just released. I could easily sink 2k hours + into that game. So if they mess this up, players (like me) now have a good alternative to go to.

Well, my biggest issue with this, is that even if there is a top 1% that may set the norm, I shouldn't have to be forced to play exactly like you to get those numbers. Every class should have potential to get those numbers. Different playstyles should be able to get those numbers.

I'll use me for an example. I quit PvE shortly after RG first came out. I farmed veteran for my sticker book at the time. I think for my playstyle, Bahseis Mania/Kinra's Wrath was BiS for what I was doing. I was a full mageblade, using swallow soul as my spammable.

You can already see all the flaws. 1. who runs swallow soul? 2. Why am I not in proc sets? 3. Why are you playing ranged?

Well after some long years, Mageblade has been nerfed over and over again. I sat through all kinds of NB changes because melee was too strong, and Nb as a whole was broken in PvP. When it comes to PvE, its either a swallow soul build or nothing. I just won't play personally. I play that other big MMO quite often, and class fantasy is important in that game. So, I have the same mindset for this game.

So my point is, my mageblade even today with an updated proc set build, does not live up to standards. I don't have my logs anymore cause I've taken a massive break, but before I left my max parse with only 2 missed light attacks, and God tier weaving, was like 112k. Ridiculous. I moved it to the melee nb and instantly got 118k. (could have been higher but i hate melee, so I miss weaves)

I could make veteran clears, but just wasn't good enough for the prog team in my 2 guilds.

Now with subclassing, I haven't fully experimented with it yet for PvE , but I can obtain some dots and passives that can release me from shackles that I was bound to previously. If I can put myself in that 120-130k range with some other skill lines, maybe just maybe I can get into some HM or even Trifecta's.

That is if the Bar doesn't get raised before I have time to do what I need.

In Conclusion, I don't wanna be forced to play that god aweful class to complete content.

xylena_lazarow · April 29

Grega wrote: »

This could not be more false, and information/statistic here is completely made up.

The numbers are made up because the exact values are irrelevant. You understood the rhetoric. You disagreed, but you understood. So make your case, not attack my rhetoric. Why do you think what I say is false?

Maggusemm · April 29

can this be deleted or merged? there is a thread about subclassing in the PTS section.

Anyhow, what is wrong with DPS having 170k parses when before 150k were possible? It is quite normal that older content gets more easy and accesible to more players when new content is released.

Imagine vHOF would still be the same difficulty when it was released and good players did like 30-40k dps. It is very ok that older content gets easier.

licenturion · April 29

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Your so called "crying" is actually giving feedback and pointing out harm points that are coming.
You know what? Paying customers are actually allowed to give feedback, as they are the ones who should be happy about the product.

I agree with you. And I also advocated in another thread a few days ago that the best way is actually testing on PTS, find new problems and report feedback.

But every thread about subclassing starts out with 'subclassing should be cancelled' and then linking to an outlier other people or some content creator have found as valid reason. That is just an unproductive waste of time IMO.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Grega wrote: »

This could not be more false, and information/statistic here is completely made up.

The numbers are made up because the exact values are irrelevant. You understood the rhetoric. You disagreed, but you understood. So make your case, not attack my rhetoric. Why do you think what I say is false?

Yeah. I have been listening to that KindaFunny podcast and this was quite refreshing to hear the director and creatives talk about the game, the issues and how the subscription model was a huge failure. Yet when you read the forums from time to time you read exactly all the opposite stuff than what the developers actually experience.

Destai · April 29

Just seeing how class balance has played out over the years, I worry about how manageable the skill system will become. I'm not saying that to dig at their skill as developers, it's just that it's introducing exponential complexity to an already complex skill system. I'm concerned their time is going to be consumed chasing the pop-up issues where someone's doing something like 200k damage. I worry it'll be a never ending game of whack-a-mole for the devs, with game balance being collateral.

I'm still looking forward to it, but I do worry about the consequences of this rollout.

Daoin · April 29

not in a million years is subclassing ever going pass as a good step forward in eso just like tarrifs in the real world, personally im thinking they have something up thier sleeves we dont know about for the future of eso. well i hope so. i can see how people who post thier world records on the net would find it amusing to get a little faster in content but thats about it. and those are the only players the creators think about, always steaming over everyone else to satisfy them, as for another comment here, everyone knows the only reason people PTS is to get ahead on latest new build and mechs for stuff. if they pass a glitch getting them there thats what is reported. i know for a fact this is all true because i play with the average players every day for a long time, i even know that theres no way devs could have stepped and played the game with the crowd to much or they would see whats going on in game and act accordingly

Maggusemm · April 29

Daoin wrote: »

not in a million years is subclassing ever going pass as a good step forward in eso, personally im thinking they have something up thier sleeves we dont know about for the furure of eso. well i hope so. i can see how people who post thier world records on the net would find it amusing to get a little faster in content but thats about it. and those are the only players the creators think about, always steaming over everyone else to satisfy them, as for another comment here, everyone knows the only reason people PTS is to get ahead on latest new build and mechs for stuff. if they pass a glitch getting them there thats what is reported. i know for a fact this is all true because i play with the average players every day for a long time, i even know that theres no way devs could have stepped and played the game with the crowd to much or they would see whats going on in game and act accordingly

What is your main reason that you reject subclassing? It is hard to identify the arguments in your post. I think its a great development which is further increasing opportunities which is desired by many players

Daoin · April 29

Maggusemm wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

not in a million years is subclassing ever going pass as a good step forward in eso, personally im thinking they have something up thier sleeves we dont know about for the furure of eso. well i hope so. i can see how people who post thier world records on the net would find it amusing to get a little faster in content but thats about it. and those are the only players the creators think about, always steaming over everyone else to satisfy them, as for another comment here, everyone knows the only reason people PTS is to get ahead on latest new build and mechs for stuff. if they pass a glitch getting them there thats what is reported. i know for a fact this is all true because i play with the average players every day for a long time, i even know that theres no way devs could have stepped and played the game with the crowd to much or they would see whats going on in game and act accordingly

What is your main reason that you reject subclassing? It is hard to identify the arguments in your post. I think its a great development which is further increasing opportunities which is desired by many players

good for you mate, but on another note, maybe its the people that attend thier parties too that they listen to but its definititely not your average player. i just know i'll do all i can to stop my toons becoming the next 51st state

Pevey · April 29

More than in any other game I've ever played, a high percentage of ESO players seem to follow patch cycles and be concerned about upcoming changes. This is probably due to ESO's history with some very significant and controversial changes, some of which ended up being good for the game (like One Tamriel, IMO, which has largely been a positive aside from the lack of difficulty it caused that has gone unaddressed for far too long), and some of which are still hated and caused so many players to leave (Morrowind sustain nerf, U35). The dev team massively increased DOT damage one patch, only to nerf it harder than ever soon after. And then killed ground DOTS even further with the change to 2 seconds and then the nerfs in 35. The players who decide to stay have to adapt (for instance major way to get some AOE back was azureblight, which has since been "adjusted" and now about to be deleted with next patch).

It's true that in many games, the percentage of players who follow patch notes and care about a few percent change to this or that is very small. But in ESO, it is different. Before you spend a few hundred transmute crystals on a set, you care whether it is about to become completely obsolete. ESO has more head-scratching changes that seem to come from left field, so you have to keep up to play this game, whether your focus is dungeons/trials, trading, PVP, whatever.

Yudo · April 29

Hmm the dps is one thing, but the shields showcased here is just a gimmick.
You choose to slot 4 shields and ulti, and spend 5s to cast all to stack to reach max shield numbers for one spectacular moment. Is cool that you can reach these numbers with subclassing I guess.

I don't see how this is practical though. It is almost better to keep spamming one skill instead of filling your bar with it. Even then, simply holding block with aegis will do the same amount of mitigation on demand, rather than this all-or-nothing build up that just works once for the show.

Obviously you have access to more shields with subclassing and ward and aegis for example are very strong skills for tanking that anyone will be able to access now. Those I can see becoming a trend for tanking yes, but not in this extreme format.

sarahthes · April 29

I don't mind subclassing as an idea. But endgame is gonna shrink if the meta becomes too stale and people are forced back on to fatecarver. At least right now comps are a mix, and the arc beamer spots are often used for newer players so they can get experience in the content. Most endgamers don't like actually playing arc themselves so being forced into it will just make them quit and then we get brain drain 2.0.

Erickson9610 · April 29

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

So we're seeing DD with 170k dps parses, tanks with 160k damage shield and so on..
There is a fair number of people posting that subclassing cannot go ahead because it will break this game.

The thing is, if you are on this forum you are a minority player. I think forum posters generally represent no more than 5% of the playerbase. Most of my guildies who are active on discord do not have a forum account because they don't concern themselves with the latest patch update. Many of them only really notice the changes when something major has been nerfed (e.g. Jabs in patch 35 or Werewold tanking) and has a large enough impact to be noticed while doing their dailies.

So the issue is this: endgame is a broken mess before patch 46 and that isn't really going to change. But you can't balance a game around a small minority of players when the money is elsewhere.

FYI:
160k shield build
https://youtu.be/oOT1vAUFrWc?si=lGPOX_637iVyD1wN&t=712

Finally, someone says it.

People who go the extra mile to engage with ESO on social media (whether that be here on the official forums, on the ESO subreddit, on the Steam Community forums, or on platforms like X or Bluesky) are a minority of players. Generally speaking, very few players care enough to give feedback and criticism — the ones who do engage with those platforms have enough experience to formulate their own opinion that they want to express.

In recent promotional material for the game, the focus has been on making The Elder Scrolls Online more of an "Elder Scrolls with friends" experience, rather than a stereotypical MMORPG the likes of others in the genre. That is ESO's identity now. Scribing is reminiscent of Spellcrafting from earlier TES games, and Subclassing breaks down the classical MMORPG class system to make it more like older TES games where you started out with a class but could specialize in something else. Both Scribing and Subclassing are being made free this year, which seems to be part of the plan to renew interest in the game — and it's working. Many players have expressed renewed interest in ESO following the announcement of Subclassing.

As far as endgame balancing (PvE and PvP) goes, just let players sort it out. A new meta always emerges with every major change, and ZOS can use data from the experience on Live to iteratively tweak the experience going forward. I know that my preferred playstyle will be at a steep disadvantage in both PvE and PvP thanks to Subclassing, but my options are to play the meta (which I don't want to do), or adapt my playstyle to be more competitive with the meta (which takes some theorycrafting, patience, and skill). Maybe I will play the meta when I have to — but for the majority of content in this game, I don't have to.

Daoin · April 29

in other words to cut the story down further, the game got broken trying to follow a certain trend and nobody knew how to fix it, so old classical hammer came out to it

Elowen_Starveil · April 29

I hope it's as broken as people seem to think it will be. I'm all in for it. I "retired" at the end of last year, but if this launches as people say, and lets me get vet-HM-type DPS, I will come back, do the grind to re-level all the skill lines I want to use, and finally complete a Veteshran trifecta.

Further, I hope this drives all the sweaty-weaving gatekeepers crazy and they leave the game over it.

Elowen_Starveil · April 29

Grega wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It was meant for me. I've been asking for Streak on DK for a while now.

They've been catering to the top 1% and bottom 1% for a decade. That's why the combat is a mess. That's why we have a click story overworld, and an endgame that's hard gatekept by logistics before you even get to the skill demands. Subclassing is finally something for the middle 98% to have fun with, make new builds, clear new content. The top 1% will be in the same little bubble with another narrow inbred meta, just like u45, just like every other game everywhere.

This could not be more false, and information/statistic here is completely made up.

The comment right after you is 100% the other direction. These forums never change. Half of everyone thinks X is completely negative, the other half think X is perfect and should never be touched.

Daoin · April 29

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Grega wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It was meant for me. I've been asking for Streak on DK for a while now.

They've been catering to the top 1% and bottom 1% for a decade. That's why the combat is a mess. That's why we have a click story overworld, and an endgame that's hard gatekept by logistics before you even get to the skill demands. Subclassing is finally something for the middle 98% to have fun with, make new builds, clear new content. The top 1% will be in the same little bubble with another narrow inbred meta, just like u45, just like every other game everywhere.

This could not be more false, and information/statistic here is completely made up.

The comment right after you is 100% the other direction. These forums never change. Half of everyone thinks X is completely negative, the other half think X is perfect and should never be touched.

you'll get a good counter to that ingame, such as the best i ever ever heard was if you speak up to loud or dont play the way you are told you wont get any end game play content, the end gamers will make sure of it. think i had to ss that one somewhere since been deleted though. and its more like 90% of players roll with it before the chequebook request

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · April 29

Daoin wrote: »

in other words to cut the story down further, the game got broken trying to follow a certain trend and nobody knew how to fix it, so old classical hammer came out to it

Lmao, people promulgating their opinions as fact and failing to see the difference.

Subclassing gives more options except in very narrow cases (endgame trifecta content) that already have almost 0 options.

Let's get some quantification in here:
a) How many endgame meta trifecta builds are there currently? Not small variations (like slotting 1 cp differently or something). I mean true builds that are meaningfully different (let's say, how many different sets are involved for each role: stam DPS, mag DPS, tanks, healers). Is it one per class? Is it one, period? Is it 15? Does anyone actually *do* endgame here who can answer?

b) how many endgame meta trifecta builds will exist after subclassing? How many exist on the PTS?

If B>A, people are being silly for no reason; there are objectively more options.

If A<B, endgame trifecta folks have a point and probably ought to give feedback (feedback that is more comprehensive than "CANCEL EVERYTHING" or "just make it so the classes can complete 4head" with no further elaboration).

Edit:
To add my experience:
1) stamina DPS has basically "relequen's + deadly or orders" across all classes.

2) magicka dps currently seems to be 'play stamina' (but there is an interesting Necro dot build)

3) tanks are "turning tide and either pearlescent ward, powerful assault, or alkosh" (call it 4?)

4) healers are "symphony of blades or spaulder, rojo, and SPC+ ro or jo". Maybe 2 or 3 also?

CalamityCat · April 29

I love threads where players guess numbers like they're real statistics

When I first heard about subclassing I thought we were getting a choice of what classes to combine and it would be just an option for some build variety/RP. I had no issue with that. Likewise, I don't care what the top end DPS happens to be in game. As long as that number is obtainable by both pure and subclass builds then it's just a number. Again, no issue.

What we actually seem to be getting is a whole lot of changes and nerfs to balance classes around subclassing. Oh and they're not done with those changes, as this beauty was in the last PTS patch notes:

"For those looking for combat updates, don’t worry. We’re giving you the heads up that next week will have a large chunk of combat adjustments. Stay tuned for PTS Week 4."

Reading that just confirmed to me that subclassing is the new shiny thing and the devs are going to put in a lot of time "balancing" to make it work. There's a distinct lack of balancing to ensure pure class builds can actually compete with the subclass ones which is where I'm concerned enough to step back from ESO. I would love to see that balance, then it wouldn't need to be a case of "subclassing isn't for us" because it could exist alongside pure classes and we'd all get to play the one that suited us.

Daoin · April 29

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

in other words to cut the story down further, the game got broken trying to follow a certain trend and nobody knew how to fix it, so old classical hammer came out to it

Lmao, people promulgating their opinions as fact and failing to see the difference.

Subclassing gives more options except in very narrow cases (endgame trifecta content) that already have almost 0 options.

Let's get some quantification in here:
a) How many endgame meta trifecta builds are there currently? Not small variations (like slotting 1 cp differently or something). I mean true builds that are meaningfully different (let's say, how many different sets are involved for each role: stam DPS, mag DPS, tanks, healers). Is it one per class? Is it one, period? Is it 15? Does anyone actually *do* endgame here who can answer?

b) how many endgame meta trifecta builds will exist after subclassing? How many exist on the PTS?

If B>A, people are being silly for no reason; there are objectively more options.

If A<B, endgame trifecta folks have a point and probably ought to give feedback (feedback that is more comprehensive than "CANCEL EVERYTHING" or "just make it so the classes can complete 4head" with no further elaboration).

and i truly hope you enjoy all that mate, really, specially the if its broken enough part everyone can stream in for a trifecta, i love that part most of all in the thread %100

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · April 29

Daoin wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

in other words to cut the story down further, the game got broken trying to follow a certain trend and nobody knew how to fix it, so old classical hammer came out to it

Lmao, people promulgating their opinions as fact and failing to see the difference.

Subclassing gives more options except in very narrow cases (endgame trifecta content) that already have almost 0 options.

Let's get some quantification in here:
a) How many endgame meta trifecta builds are there currently? Not small variations (like slotting 1 cp differently or something). I mean true builds that are meaningfully different (let's say, how many different sets are involved for each role: stam DPS, mag DPS, tanks, healers). Is it one per class? Is it one, period? Is it 15? Does anyone actually *do* endgame here who can answer?

b) how many endgame meta trifecta builds will exist after subclassing? How many exist on the PTS?

If B>A, people are being silly for no reason; there are objectively more options.

If A<B, endgame trifecta folks have a point and probably ought to give feedback (feedback that is more comprehensive than "CANCEL EVERYTHING" or "just make it so the classes can complete 4head" with no further elaboration).

and i truly hope you enjoy all that mate, really, specially the if its broken enough part everyone can stream in for a trifecta, i love that part most of all in the thread %100

I don't think you even read what I wrote but go off I guess.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · April 29

CalamityCat wrote: »

I love threads where players guess numbers like they're real statistics

When I first heard about subclassing I thought we were getting a choice of what classes to combine and it would be just an option for some build variety/RP. I had no issue with that. Likewise, I don't care what the top end DPS happens to be in game. As long as that number is obtainable by both pure and subclass builds then it's just a number. Again, no issue.

What we actually seem to be getting is a whole lot of changes and nerfs to balance classes around subclassing. Oh and they're not done with those changes, as this beauty was in the last PTS patch notes:

"For those looking for combat updates, don’t worry. We’re giving you the heads up that next week will have a large chunk of combat adjustments. Stay tuned for PTS Week 4."

Reading that just confirmed to me that subclassing is the new shiny thing and the devs are going to put in a lot of time "balancing" to make it work. There's a distinct lack of balancing to ensure pure class builds can actually compete with the subclass ones which is where I'm concerned enough to step back from ESO. I would love to see that balance, then it wouldn't need to be a case of "subclassing isn't for us" because it could exist alongside pure classes and we'd all get to play the one that suited us.

So long as "alongside" means "as good as Spell Parasite runs compared to Turning Tide" then I am fine with it. My trifecta *dungeon* tank wears spell parasite, which is off meta but seems to work okay.

Daoin · April 29

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

I love threads where players guess numbers like they're real statistics

When I first heard about subclassing I thought we were getting a choice of what classes to combine and it would be just an option for some build variety/RP. I had no issue with that. Likewise, I don't care what the top end DPS happens to be in game. As long as that number is obtainable by both pure and subclass builds then it's just a number. Again, no issue.

What we actually seem to be getting is a whole lot of changes and nerfs to balance classes around subclassing. Oh and they're not done with those changes, as this beauty was in the last PTS patch notes:

"For those looking for combat updates, don’t worry. We’re giving you the heads up that next week will have a large chunk of combat adjustments. Stay tuned for PTS Week 4."

Reading that just confirmed to me that subclassing is the new shiny thing and the devs are going to put in a lot of time "balancing" to make it work. There's a distinct lack of balancing to ensure pure class builds can actually compete with the subclass ones which is where I'm concerned enough to step back from ESO. I would love to see that balance, then it wouldn't need to be a case of "subclassing isn't for us" because it could exist alongside pure classes and we'd all get to play the one that suited us.

So long as "alongside" means "as good as Spell Parasite runs compared to Turning Tide" then I am fine with it. My trifecta *dungeon* tank wears spell parasite, which is off meta but seems to work okay.

i read it but a bit to on the deep side for me to compute well, just was highlighting something on my level of like. the easy trifecta for everyone thing sealed it for me. this could be a good thing after all