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Radiant destruction too weakened
Fantalior
✭✭✭✭
The nerf to the Templar Beam is outrageous. Why is a class's best ability being destroyed just because others now have access to it? I'm referring primarily to the fact that this ability cannot be dodged; this aspect should be retained, especially in PvP. Perhaps at least with a morph that then receives the short cast time and the inescapability for it. As far as I'm concerned, something can be done with the buffs and damage values, perhaps just 300% or 250% more damage...
Use the morphs, one for PvP, one for PvE.
Most people in PvP start hastily rolling when their health drops below a certain level, say 25%, to gain 100% immunity, often double-casting, frantically casting shields, and letting Elan heal them up in a relaxed manner...
This makes it difficult to end the fight in many 1v1 situations, especially if you don't have the Meteor ultimate because you've already used it to get your opponent below 30%.
Then there are all the tanks who have a one-butt, 50% HP recovery heal.
Then, with the long cast time of Radiant Destruction, you can still be easily interrupted and then have a dead skill on your bar for a short time.
What else is good at range?
Sorcerer's Wrath --> also got a nerf, dodgeable
NB Murderer's Blade --> short range and never really good, dodgeable
Executioner (2H) --> only in melee, dodgeable
The one script that eats Soul Gems --> dodgeable on most skills
_____________________
Perhaps the dual-weapon flurry is unfortunately only best in melee --> but that should still count as a non-dodgeable area, right?
In short, the fairly reliable finisher, Radiant Destruction, was the reason why I enjoyed the Templar in PvP at all.
Edited by Fantalior on April 21, 2025 8:56AM Use the morphs, one for PvP, one for PvE.
Most people in PvP start hastily rolling when their health drops below a certain level, say 25%, to gain 100% immunity, often double-casting, frantically casting shields, and letting Elan heal them up in a relaxed manner...
This makes it difficult to end the fight in many 1v1 situations, especially if you don't have the Meteor ultimate because you've already used it to get your opponent below 30%.
Then there are all the tanks who have a one-butt, 50% HP recovery heal.
Then, with the long cast time of Radiant Destruction, you can still be easily interrupted and then have a dead skill on your bar for a short time.
What else is good at range?
Sorcerer's Wrath --> also got a nerf, dodgeable
NB Murderer's Blade --> short range and never really good, dodgeable
Executioner (2H) --> only in melee, dodgeable
The one script that eats Soul Gems --> dodgeable on most skills
_____________________
Perhaps the dual-weapon flurry is unfortunately only best in melee --> but that should still count as a non-dodgeable area, right?
In short, the fairly reliable finisher, Radiant Destruction, was the reason why I enjoyed the Templar in PvP at all.
7
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StarMightyMaster✭✭✭The nerf to the Templar Beam is outrageous. Why is a class's best ability being destroyed just because others now have access to it? I'm referring primarily to the fact that this ability cannot be dodged; this aspect should be retained, especially in PvP. Perhaps at least with a morph that then receives the short cast time and the inescapability for it. As far as I'm concerned, something can be done with the buffs and damage values, perhaps just 300% or 250% more damage...
Use the morphs, one for PvP, one for PvE.
Most people in PvP start hastily rolling when their health drops below a certain level, say 25%, to gain 100% immunity, often double-casting, frantically casting shields, and letting Elan heal them up in a relaxed manner...
This makes it difficult to end the fight in many 1v1 situations, especially if you don't have the Meteor ultimate because you've already used it to get your opponent below 30%.
Then there are all the tanks who have a one-butt, 50% HP recovery heal.
Then, with the long cast time of Radiant Destruction, you can still be easily interrupted and then have a dead skill on your bar for a short time.
What else is good at range?
Sorcerer's Wrath --> also got a nerf, dodgeable
NB Murderer's Blade --> short range and never really good, dodgeable
Executioner (2H) --> only in melee, dodgeable
The one script that eats Soul Gems --> dodgeable on most skills
_____________________
Perhaps the dual-weapon flurry is unfortunately only best in melee --> but that should still count as a non-dodgeable area, right?
In short, the fairly reliable finisher, Radiant Destruction, was the reason why I enjoyed the Templar in PvP at all.
You have other options
0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭StarMightyMaster wrote: »The nerf to the Templar Beam is outrageous. Why is a class's best ability being destroyed just because others now have access to it? I'm referring primarily to the fact that this ability cannot be dodged; this aspect should be retained, especially in PvP. Perhaps at least with a morph that then receives the short cast time and the inescapability for it. As far as I'm concerned, something can be done with the buffs and damage values, perhaps just 300% or 250% more damage...
Use the morphs, one for PvP, one for PvE.
Most people in PvP start hastily rolling when their health drops below a certain level, say 25%, to gain 100% immunity, often double-casting, frantically casting shields, and letting Elan heal them up in a relaxed manner...
This makes it difficult to end the fight in many 1v1 situations, especially if you don't have the Meteor ultimate because you've already used it to get your opponent below 30%.
Then there are all the tanks who have a one-butt, 50% HP recovery heal.
Then, with the long cast time of Radiant Destruction, you can still be easily interrupted and then have a dead skill on your bar for a short time.
What else is good at range?
Sorcerer's Wrath --> also got a nerf, dodgeable
NB Murderer's Blade --> short range and never really good, dodgeable
Executioner (2H) --> only in melee, dodgeable
The one script that eats Soul Gems --> dodgeable on most skills
_____________________
Perhaps the dual-weapon flurry is unfortunately only best in melee --> but that should still count as a non-dodgeable area, right?
In short, the fairly reliable finisher, Radiant Destruction, was the reason why I enjoyed the Templar in PvP at all.
You have other options
For an Execute in Dawns Wrath? Where?Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭StarMightyMaster wrote: »The nerf to the Templar Beam is outrageous. Why is a class's best ability being destroyed just because others now have access to it? I'm referring primarily to the fact that this ability cannot be dodged; this aspect should be retained, especially in PvP. Perhaps at least with a morph that then receives the short cast time and the inescapability for it. As far as I'm concerned, something can be done with the buffs and damage values, perhaps just 300% or 250% more damage...
Use the morphs, one for PvP, one for PvE.
Most people in PvP start hastily rolling when their health drops below a certain level, say 25%, to gain 100% immunity, often double-casting, frantically casting shields, and letting Elan heal them up in a relaxed manner...
This makes it difficult to end the fight in many 1v1 situations, especially if you don't have the Meteor ultimate because you've already used it to get your opponent below 30%.
Then there are all the tanks who have a one-butt, 50% HP recovery heal.
Then, with the long cast time of Radiant Destruction, you can still be easily interrupted and then have a dead skill on your bar for a short time.
What else is good at range?
Sorcerer's Wrath --> also got a nerf, dodgeable
NB Murderer's Blade --> short range and never really good, dodgeable
Executioner (2H) --> only in melee, dodgeable
The one script that eats Soul Gems --> dodgeable on most skills
_____________________
Perhaps the dual-weapon flurry is unfortunately only best in melee --> but that should still count as a non-dodgeable area, right?
In short, the fairly reliable finisher, Radiant Destruction, was the reason why I enjoyed the Templar in PvP at all.
You have other options
List them.1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You're not wrong.
But you will never convince ZOS (or non Templars) because you are repeating the propaganda:Perhaps at least with a morph that then receives the short cast time and the inescapability for it.
If it is "inescapable," then it should get nerfed and ZOS did the right thing.
ZOS has been very consistent with allowing counterplay (except with Rush of Agony of course).
I don't think ZOS is doing this just because of subclassing. I think ZOS is also doing this because this is finally the update they did something to make the Adric Spear line and Templar offense more generally useful. They knew they were going to nerf Jesus Beam, but waited until the could give Templars something else.
It's quite easy how to deal with this as a 'plar player. All of us who played in 2016 knew how useless a dodgeable beam was (mind you, this was back when players had 21K health, ran out of resources, no swift jewelry for easy LOS, and there weren't any tank sets that played the game for them).
You don't use it. Just drop the Dawn;s Wrath line because none of the skills are competitive from a PvP standpoint. Take the Assassination line, for example.Edited by Joy_Division on April 21, 2025 1:47PM0 -
moderatelyfatman✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Fantalior
I agree: they've nerfed the one thing that made templars stand out in PvE.
If they'd buffed Jabs significantly in return, then it might have been a different story.5 -
Major_Mangle✭✭✭✭✭The undodgeable part was annoying. Deserved. Long time coming.
Beam being un-dodgeable wasn´t a problem, but rather the fact that it could be used from such a huge range (41 meter with reach passive). The only time real realistic scenario it would be "troublesome" would be if you were caught in open field outnumbered and started to panic dodge roll, but at that point you made some bad decisions earlier on, which isn´t a beam issue. A better rework would´ve been to reduce the range of beam (something like 15-20 meters) to make it a little bit easier to bash/interrupt. Beam going through dodge is a healthy counterplay tool, but as I wrote, the problem is the range of how far away it can be used from.Ps4 EU 2016-2020
PC/EU: 2020 -1 -
Markytous✭✭✭✭
I disagree. Groups of players would spear and spam beam in Battlegrounds with Hrothgars Chill Tarnished Nightmare and grief because it was playing with unblockable and undodgeable gameplay. The beam was being crutched on hard by players who were obviously refusing to learn how to play PVP properly. And yes, the fact that it could be relegated to zergling spam to pick up kills further concretes the change as the right choice. Even Mages Fury's cast can be dodged. This needed to happen... or rather the skill should never have been made undodgeable. They did that because Templar had no identity after jabs was gutted and encouraged "Jesus Beam" behavior in the patch notes. It was simply sub-par balancing and I'm glad power is shifted back to jabs where it belongs and not this divisive gimmick "Execute" skill. However if beam had a 15m range and was undodgeable I think it'd work. Any further and it's too oppressive and causes ridiculousness like people suggesting Melee executes should be undodgeable. I'd rather not go there and rework the annoying skill instead of make every skill annoying.Major_Mangle wrote: »The undodgeable part was annoying. Deserved. Long time coming.
Beam being un-dodgeable wasn´t a problem, but rather the fact that it could be used from such a huge range (41 meter with reach passive). The only time real realistic scenario it would be "troublesome" would be if you were caught in open field outnumbered and started to panic dodge roll, but at that point you made some bad decisions earlier on, which isn´t a beam issue. A better rework would´ve been to reduce the range of beam (something like 15-20 meters) to make it a little bit easier to bash/interrupt. Beam going through dodge is a healthy counterplay tool, but as I wrote, the problem is the range of how far away it can be used from.0 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
I disagree. Groups of players would spear and spam beam in Battlegrounds with Hrothgars Chill Tarnished Nightmare and grief because it was playing with unblockable and undodgeable gameplay. The beam was being crutched on hard by players who were obviously refusing to learn how to play PVP properly. And yes, the fact that it could be relegated to zergling spam to pick up kills further concretes the change as the right choice. Even Mages Fury's cast can be dodged. This needed to happen... or rather the skill should never have been made undodgeable. They did that because Templar had no identity after jabs was gutted and encouraged "Jesus Beam" behavior in the patch notes. It was simply sub-par balancing and I'm glad power is shifted back to jabs where it belongs and not this divisive gimmick "Execute" skill. However if beam had a 15m range and was undodgeable I think it'd work. Any further and it's too oppressive and causes ridiculousness like people suggesting Melee executes should be undodgeable. I'd rather not go there and rework the annoying skill instead of make every skill annoying.Major_Mangle wrote: »The undodgeable part was annoying. Deserved. Long time coming.
Beam being un-dodgeable wasn´t a problem, but rather the fact that it could be used from such a huge range (41 meter with reach passive). The only time real realistic scenario it would be "troublesome" would be if you were caught in open field outnumbered and started to panic dodge roll, but at that point you made some bad decisions earlier on, which isn´t a beam issue. A better rework would´ve been to reduce the range of beam (something like 15-20 meters) to make it a little bit easier to bash/interrupt. Beam going through dodge is a healthy counterplay tool, but as I wrote, the problem is the range of how far away it can be used from.
If you are CCed by javelin you still can't dodge the beam. Tarnish was already nerfed and hrothgar isn't even that strong. Those sets also have nothing to do with this change.1 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
It made roll dodge builds unplayable for the average player. You would just auto die if you couldn't zoom across the battlefield to LoS cover fast enough, and even as a sweaty player, it was still unfun and artificially limiting.Major_Mangle wrote: »Beam being un-dodgeable wasn´t a problem, but rather the fact that it could be used from such a huge range (41 meter with reach passive). The only time real realistic scenario it would be "troublesome" would be if you were caught in open field outnumbered and started to panic dodge roll
Dodgeable beam is great for the PvP meta, but it really should've come alongside a buff to Jabs, i.e. make them "sticky" like Twin Slashes so you only need to land the first hit, they nerfed the cleave damage anyway.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || RIP ground oils0 -
Markytous✭✭✭✭
After you're bursted and break free, you can roll out. But the fact that you're defending tick-1 huge numbers on Radiant is showing me your stance clearly. That execute should never have been hitting you with gigantic ticks before you can even see the animation. Everything works together and flows to make the game play. The undodgeable beam needed to go. It's not an ultimate. Toxic Barrage got got so why shouldn't a non-ultimate? Use Soul Assault instead. It forces mechanics like Meteor does but its an ultimate so there's fair counterplay set in place. Doesn't matter what anyone says - it was annoying to deal with Templar Beam in PVP. Dealt with? Nice.Teeba_Shei wrote: »
I disagree. Groups of players would spear and spam beam in Battlegrounds with Hrothgars Chill Tarnished Nightmare and grief because it was playing with unblockable and undodgeable gameplay. The beam was being crutched on hard by players who were obviously refusing to learn how to play PVP properly. And yes, the fact that it could be relegated to zergling spam to pick up kills further concretes the change as the right choice. Even Mages Fury's cast can be dodged. This needed to happen... or rather the skill should never have been made undodgeable. They did that because Templar had no identity after jabs was gutted and encouraged "Jesus Beam" behavior in the patch notes. It was simply sub-par balancing and I'm glad power is shifted back to jabs where it belongs and not this divisive gimmick "Execute" skill. However if beam had a 15m range and was undodgeable I think it'd work. Any further and it's too oppressive and causes ridiculousness like people suggesting Melee executes should be undodgeable. I'd rather not go there and rework the annoying skill instead of make every skill annoying.Major_Mangle wrote: »The undodgeable part was annoying. Deserved. Long time coming.
Beam being un-dodgeable wasn´t a problem, but rather the fact that it could be used from such a huge range (41 meter with reach passive). The only time real realistic scenario it would be "troublesome" would be if you were caught in open field outnumbered and started to panic dodge roll, but at that point you made some bad decisions earlier on, which isn´t a beam issue. A better rework would´ve been to reduce the range of beam (something like 15-20 meters) to make it a little bit easier to bash/interrupt. Beam going through dodge is a healthy counterplay tool, but as I wrote, the problem is the range of how far away it can be used from.
If you are CCed by javelin you still can't dodge the beam. Tarnish was already nerfed and hrothgar isn't even that strong. Those sets also have nothing to do with this change.Edited by Markytous on April 21, 2025 2:30PM0 -
Thumbless_Bot✭✭✭✭✭What exactly is the nerf? The tic is still the same it just lasts longer and can be roll dodged... right?! exactly how this will work on a sticky dot is beyond me.0
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xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Exactly like the Bow ults, which are also dodgeable channels.Thumbless_Bot wrote: »What exactly is the nerf? The tic is still the same it just lasts longer and can be roll dodged... right?! exactly how this will work on a sticky dot is beyond me.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || RIP ground oils0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭It was wicked OP but it helped keep Templar in equal popularity to NB, Sorc, DK and Warden in PvP on Xbox NA. It also helped to lessen stalemates, of course. Personally I was excited to use Dawn's Wrath in Subclassing.
To keep this line competitive I'd like:
Buff to Gravity Crush. Make this the big stand-out heavy hitter like it was back in the day.
Give Sunfire Perma-Savagery like Inferno and Cloak, or at least 60 seconds like Blue Lotus. Ditto for Siphon on Necro although I suspect Gravelord won't need help as a line.
Restoring lost power to PotL and Bubble sure but I guess that goes without saying.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
After you're bursted and break free, you can roll out. But the fact that you're defending tick-1 huge numbers on Radiant is showing me your stance clearly. That execute should never have been hitting you with gigantic ticks before you can even see the animation. Everything works together and flows to make the game play. The undodgeable beam needed to go. It's not an ultimate. Toxic Barrage got got so why shouldn't a non-ultimate? Use Soul Assault instead. It forces mechanics like Meteor does but its an ultimate so there's fair counterplay set in place. Doesn't matter what anyone says - it was annoying to deal with Templar Beam in PVP. Dealt with? Nice.Teeba_Shei wrote: »
I disagree. Groups of players would spear and spam beam in Battlegrounds with Hrothgars Chill Tarnished Nightmare and grief because it was playing with unblockable and undodgeable gameplay. The beam was being crutched on hard by players who were obviously refusing to learn how to play PVP properly. And yes, the fact that it could be relegated to zergling spam to pick up kills further concretes the change as the right choice. Even Mages Fury's cast can be dodged. This needed to happen... or rather the skill should never have been made undodgeable. They did that because Templar had no identity after jabs was gutted and encouraged "Jesus Beam" behavior in the patch notes. It was simply sub-par balancing and I'm glad power is shifted back to jabs where it belongs and not this divisive gimmick "Execute" skill. However if beam had a 15m range and was undodgeable I think it'd work. Any further and it's too oppressive and causes ridiculousness like people suggesting Melee executes should be undodgeable. I'd rather not go there and rework the annoying skill instead of make every skill annoying.Major_Mangle wrote: »The undodgeable part was annoying. Deserved. Long time coming.
Beam being un-dodgeable wasn´t a problem, but rather the fact that it could be used from such a huge range (41 meter with reach passive). The only time real realistic scenario it would be "troublesome" would be if you were caught in open field outnumbered and started to panic dodge roll, but at that point you made some bad decisions earlier on, which isn´t a beam issue. A better rework would´ve been to reduce the range of beam (something like 15-20 meters) to make it a little bit easier to bash/interrupt. Beam going through dodge is a healthy counterplay tool, but as I wrote, the problem is the range of how far away it can be used from.
If you are CCed by javelin you still can't dodge the beam. Tarnish was already nerfed and hrothgar isn't even that strong. Those sets also have nothing to do with this change.
The beam still ticks the first hit. The entire situation you've constructed doesn't change at all with the patch nerf.Edited by Teeba_Shei on April 21, 2025 2:48PM1 -
GoAvs34✭✭New beam ticks every ~.75 seconds. Old beam Ticked twice in the first GCD (1 second) and then once in the 2nd GCD that could be why it felt like it hits so hard. Vengence Beam ticks 1 time per GCD.0
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Markytous✭✭✭✭
It absolutely does. I can dodge the single target skill. "Rule breakers" are bad design as it is but unblockable Javelin isn't so bad, as AoE stuns aren't blockable anyways. Page too far making a skill as oppressive and as untelegraphed as Radiant Destruction function outside of core combat mechanics. I will always choose and reinforce core combat mechanics first. You don't get to walk in here and enforce power creep just because of class bias. I'm a 2H enjoyer and propose that Executioner is undodgeable. See? Makes no sense. Game health over bias every time from now on.Teeba_Shei wrote: »
After you're bursted and break free, you can roll out. But the fact that you're defending tick-1 huge numbers on Radiant is showing me your stance clearly. That execute should never have been hitting you with gigantic ticks before you can even see the animation. Everything works together and flows to make the game play. The undodgeable beam needed to go. It's not an ultimate. Toxic Barrage got got so why shouldn't a non-ultimate? Use Soul Assault instead. It forces mechanics like Meteor does but its an ultimate so there's fair counterplay set in place. Doesn't matter what anyone says - it was annoying to deal with Templar Beam in PVP. Dealt with? Nice.Teeba_Shei wrote: »
I disagree. Groups of players would spear and spam beam in Battlegrounds with Hrothgars Chill Tarnished Nightmare and grief because it was playing with unblockable and undodgeable gameplay. The beam was being crutched on hard by players who were obviously refusing to learn how to play PVP properly. And yes, the fact that it could be relegated to zergling spam to pick up kills further concretes the change as the right choice. Even Mages Fury's cast can be dodged. This needed to happen... or rather the skill should never have been made undodgeable. They did that because Templar had no identity after jabs was gutted and encouraged "Jesus Beam" behavior in the patch notes. It was simply sub-par balancing and I'm glad power is shifted back to jabs where it belongs and not this divisive gimmick "Execute" skill. However if beam had a 15m range and was undodgeable I think it'd work. Any further and it's too oppressive and causes ridiculousness like people suggesting Melee executes should be undodgeable. I'd rather not go there and rework the annoying skill instead of make every skill annoying.Major_Mangle wrote: »The undodgeable part was annoying. Deserved. Long time coming.
Beam being un-dodgeable wasn´t a problem, but rather the fact that it could be used from such a huge range (41 meter with reach passive). The only time real realistic scenario it would be "troublesome" would be if you were caught in open field outnumbered and started to panic dodge roll, but at that point you made some bad decisions earlier on, which isn´t a beam issue. A better rework would´ve been to reduce the range of beam (something like 15-20 meters) to make it a little bit easier to bash/interrupt. Beam going through dodge is a healthy counterplay tool, but as I wrote, the problem is the range of how far away it can be used from.
If you are CCed by javelin you still can't dodge the beam. Tarnish was already nerfed and hrothgar isn't even that strong. Those sets also have nothing to do with this change.
The beam still ticks the first hit. The entire situation you've constructed doesn't change at all with the patch nerf.0 -
Markytous✭✭✭✭
And despite that change, it's infinitely more healthy now that its dodgeable. Love the server performance implications of a faster tick rate as well. We even allow them to tax the server more! As long as its dodgeable, its no problem to me. Vengeance, again, doing things the right way.New beam ticks every ~.75 seconds. Old beam Ticked twice in the first GCD (1 second) and then once in the 2nd GCD that could be why it felt like it hits so hard. Vengence Beam ticks 1 time per GCD.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sure but have Bow Ult and Soul Assault had consistent rules since the blockability and dodgeability reforms of the first few years? ie Single Target, dodgeable, AoE, undodgeable, and Direct Damage, blockable, DoT, unblockable? I feel like they've all been all over the place. (I'm pretty sure Bow Ult right now as Single Target Direct is both blockable and dodgeable).
But your logic is sound otherwise and yes, some of us liked this clearly imbalanced skill in lieu of adjustments to Merciless Resolve. Obviously a much different concern now that they can be combined.
Edited by Urzigurumash on April 21, 2025 3:15PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Thumbless_Bot✭✭✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Exactly like the Bow ults, which are also dodgeable channels.Thumbless_Bot wrote: »What exactly is the nerf? The tic is still the same it just lasts longer and can be roll dodged... right?! exactly how this will work on a sticky dot is beyond me.
So los. Makes sense. Thanks.0