Hot Take: What If ESO Went Full One-Bar?

QB1 · April 17

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

As a dps I dont think I'd care one bar or not, but as a tank that would be miserable. I know a few oaken/one bar tanks idk how they stand it.

I've heard the same thing from a few tanks on here. But like you said, one-bar tanks exist and are able to complete content, so it's definitely doable. That said, I think part of why it seems impossible to two-bar mains is because you’re looking at it through a two-bar lens. Obviously it's going to play differently, and you're not going to be able to bring every buff and debuff possible. Time to be more strategic and pick and choose.

It’s definitely a different mindset, and I get that it’s not for everyone. But if the whole game were rebalanced around one-bar play, I think it could actually streamline things in a way that could even make tanking more accessible, not less.

QB1 · April 17

Soarora wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

As a dps I dont think I'd care one bar or not, but as a tank that would be miserable. I know a few oaken/one bar tanks idk how they stand it.

To be honest I’ve never trusted the idea of an oakentank. Some classes (like cro) have just too many good skills to slot on 2 bars let alone 1. They’re very likely missing (de-)buffs…

Like I said above, I think part of why one-bar seems unworkable for you guys is because you're still viewing it through a two-bar lens. Of course it feels limiting if you’re used to everything being available. But one-bar tanks (and one-bar necro tanks at that) exist and are able to complete all content.

And again, I know it's not for everyone, but if the whole system were rebalanced around one-bar play, I think it would lead to cleaner, more focused builds and maybe even reduce the overload that keeps some players from tanking or doing group content at all.

QB1 · April 17

moo_2021 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

No, that would be horrible for me. Combat already often feels dangerously repetitive on a 2-bar build, while 1-bar is just beyond boring. If anything, I need more slots.

maintaining buffs is repetitive. If we don't have to do that, backbar can be freed to slot useful skills, and the combat could be much more dynamic. And one-bar wouldn't need to exist as a restriction for having free buffs.

Finally, someone else who sees how repetitive buff maintenance has gotten! I completely agree, if we didn’t have to spend so much time refreshing timers, it could really free up our bars and make combat feel less like busywork.

That kind of change is actually a big part of why I think moving the whole game to one-bar play could be good in the long run. With the right systems in place (like one or two more active skills or more passive buffs), we’d spend less time juggling upkeep and more time actually playing.

As others have said here, constantly swapping weapons just feels kind of silly. That and currently players are able to do way too much in both PvE and PvP.

But overall, your idea is in line with the kind of shift I think the game needs. Less buff management, more active, dynamic combat.

Soarora · April 17

QB1 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

As a dps I dont think I'd care one bar or not, but as a tank that would be miserable. I know a few oaken/one bar tanks idk how they stand it.

To be honest I’ve never trusted the idea of an oakentank. Some classes (like cro) have just too many good skills to slot on 2 bars let alone 1. They’re very likely missing (de-)buffs…

Like I said above, I think part of why one-bar seems unworkable for you guys is because you're still viewing it through a two-bar lens. Of course it feels limiting if you’re used to everything being available. But one-bar tanks (and one-bar necro tanks at that) exist and are able to complete all content.

And again, I know it's not for everyone, but if the whole system were rebalanced around one-bar play, I think it would lead to cleaner, more focused builds and maybe even reduce the overload that keeps some players from tanking or doing group content at all.

Do you have evidence of one-bar tanks (let alone necro) completing all content or are you just saying that? As I outlined previously, support roles are already limited on space and pushing us to one-bar would make build diversity worse because choice would be taken away due to the necessary skills. If these necessary skills were made unnecessary then tanking would get boring, which is a complaint people already have when trying out tanking. Tanking is not the DoT management game of DPS, I don’t think anyones getting overwhelmed by having 2 bars.

Iriidius · April 17

QB1 wrote: »

Okay, hear me out... what if ZOS removed Oakensoul and removed bar swapping entirely?

I know it sounds wild at first, but with how much power has crept into two-bar builds, how bloated some rotations have become, how hard it is to balance PvP and PvE across so many skill sources, and all of the game's performance issues, maybe it’s not such a bad idea. And with the new subclassing announcement, ZOS has shown they aren't afraid to make core changes to the game. Here are some reasons why a full one-bar system could actually be good for the game:

🔧 1. Easier to Balance
No more juggling buffs across two bars or stacking utility from skills you barely use. A one-bar system would level the field and make it much easier for ZOS to balance skill lines, sets, and roles.

🔥 2. Stronger Build Identity
This right here is the main reason I don't play two bar builds anymore. Want to be a bow ranger? A fire mage? A melee bruiser? One-bar builds force you to focus. You pick the abilities that define your role—not 3 damage skills, 6 of the same buffs you’d run on every other build, and a flex slot. That makes every build feel more thematic and intentional. This fits with the new subclassing announcement and hopefully, in the future, a full classless build system.

⚔️ 3. Less Power Creep
Two-bar players run around with 12 total skills, multiple sources of buffs, healing, and CC all on one character. Two-bar setups let people do everything at once. One-bar builds reign that in and bring the game back to more strategic, focused combat.

🎮 4. More Accessible for New and Casual Players
Let’s be honest: bar swapping, buff upkeep, animation canceling—these are huge skill gaps. One-bar combat would make ESO way more approachable, letting more players feel competitive without needing a spreadsheet rotation.

🧼 5. Cleaner UI, Faster Combat Flow
No more bouncing between bars just to refresh a 20s buff. You stay in the action, you stay engaged, and the interface becomes way easier to read and manage. It’s streamlined, and that’s not a bad thing.

🤝 6. Encourages Team Play & Counters Ball Groups
With only one bar, players would have to specialize more, meaning damage builds can’t also stack heals, purges, and buffs. That makes team roles more meaningful and limits the power of ball groups that rely on stacking all of the same skills on each player. It levels the field for smaller, coordinated groups and brings back tactical group PvP over ball group steamrolling.

🛠️ 7. Better Performance in Cyrodiil
The Vengeance test proved that simplicity is what's best for Cyrodiil. Every extra ability cast, buff tick, and bar swap animation adds to server load. Reducing the number of active skills by half across every player would lighten the processing load significantly. Fewer skill checks, fewer calculations, better stability. It’s not a silver bullet, but it’s a step in the right direction for performance.

You already can play 1bar builds (with oakensoul) if you want like you know yourself.
The intention of this change is not to make playing onebar easier for players that want to play onebar but to prevent players that want to play twobar from playing twobar.

1.At a great cost it wouldn't make balancing so much easier and ZoS would still fail at balancing.
2.You can have as much or more build identity with 2bar than with 1bar. Even if you need some skills on almost every build you still have more remaining skills for your build identity than with 1bar and even on 1bar you have to slot some skills for every build.
3. Doing everything at once is necessary in solo content. Solo players need to do everything at once because nobody else is doing the things for them they dont do themselves.
4. Barswapping was never one of of all the things making me feel uncompetitive and the game feel unaccessible. For players where it makes them feel this way oakensoul exists. For players not having oakensoul or unable to wear it because they're low level ZoS could add onebar option without disabling twobar for everyone.
They could give everyone most of oakensoul buffs when they dont have weapons and skills slotted on second bar or give you option to lock it in menu.
5. There are a lot more reasons to barswap than refreshing a single buff skill.
6. Ballgroups have team roles including dd, support and healer and do not stack heals, purge and buffs on dds but mostly on healer and support who don’t deal dmg. Ballgroups are not stacking same skills on every player. Only echoing vigor is on everyone. It unlevels playing field for real ballgroups over solo players and pseudo ballgroups and limits the power of solo players even further making ballgroups steamroll even more. This again forces players not wanting to play roles to play roles rather than making it easier/more fun to play roles for players who want.
7. Vengeance simplified everything enaugh and lag was already gone, no need to simplify even more.

QB1 · April 17

Soarora wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

As a dps I dont think I'd care one bar or not, but as a tank that would be miserable. I know a few oaken/one bar tanks idk how they stand it.

To be honest I’ve never trusted the idea of an oakentank. Some classes (like cro) have just too many good skills to slot on 2 bars let alone 1. They’re very likely missing (de-)buffs…

Like I said above, I think part of why one-bar seems unworkable for you guys is because you're still viewing it through a two-bar lens. Of course it feels limiting if you’re used to everything being available. But one-bar tanks (and one-bar necro tanks at that) exist and are able to complete all content.

And again, I know it's not for everyone, but if the whole system were rebalanced around one-bar play, I think it would lead to cleaner, more focused builds and maybe even reduce the overload that keeps some players from tanking or doing group content at all.

Do you have evidence of one-bar tanks (let alone necro) completing all content or are you just saying that? As I outlined previously, support roles are already limited on space and pushing us to one-bar would make build diversity worse because choice would be taken away due to the necessary skills. If these necessary skills were made unnecessary then tanking would get boring, which is a complaint people already have when trying out tanking. Tanking is not the DoT management game of DPS, I don’t think anyones getting overwhelmed by having 2 bars.

Evidence, really? You don't think a one bar tank would be able to, at the very least, just complete all vet content in the game? If not, that's a problem in and of itself. But I'm saying that based on experience having ran vet trials with a friend who plays a one bar tank.

Again, it seems like you're coming at this from a two-bar, current-state-of-things lens. Support roles feel limited? I don't get that. Healers are literally running burst heals, hots, buffs, debuffs, etc. Tanks are running buffs, debuffs, pulls, heals, shields, etc. How tf is that limited? lol

BXR_Lonestar · April 17

QB1 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

This is a big "PASS" for me. As In this would limit play too much to be viable. As someone who plays healer and tank more often than DPS, I can tell you right now there would be way too much missing from our kits if we went strictly to 1 bar for everything.

I'm not defending the bar swap game play "mechanic." I absolutely hate how it works in this game. But unless they give us permanent "passive" slots and more skills that we just equip for passives, and then turned around and did a lot of reworking of class kits and abilities, this is just not viable.

I'd rather them take a look at the bar swap mechanics and figure out a better way to make them work mechanically, and let people CHOOSE to play 1 bar or not via the oakensoul. There is give-take with making the choice to 1 bar vs. 2 bar at least.

Idk I think that's part of the tradeoff we're talking about -- one bar pushes for new, more defined roles instead of what we have now where tanks can also heal and buff, healers buff and dps, etc.

I do like your idea about the passive skill slots, and another commenter mentioned maybe giving us another two active skills as well. I think those things could definitely be a way forward and it would help maintain flexibility without forcing players into the constant barswapping.

But overall, I do agree that at the very least ZOS needs to take a look at the bar swap mechanic.

I don't think forcing players to 1 bar forces them into a more defined role at all. Tanks in high-end content often have to pull trash mobs or a sub-boss away from the group to prevent bad things from happening, meaning they're far away from where they can get healed. Without a tank's ability to heal itself, you would end up with a dead tank every time and the encounter would be impossible to pass. As for tanks healing a group? If a tank can do that (it takes certain builds to be able to provide adequate healing as a tank) more power to them. I see that as more of a class identity issue than anything. A DK tank is not going to be healing a 1T/3dd dungeon group. A templar tank could, but you sacrifice certain things that the DK tank could do. So even then, there is give/take.

For bar swap mechanics, I'd really like them to rework the combat system so that light attacks just happen automatically, freeing up the ability to Hold/release the RT (currently used for light/heavy attacks) to bar swap from front bar to back bar. ALL games that I have played that have used this mechanic function better using this bar swap system vs. the D-Pad bar swap. But something has to give - either the light attack/heavy attack system or the block system.

I really like your idea about rethinking bar swap input entirely. Making bar swapping more intuitive could be a great middle ground if full one-bar isn’t the move. Personally, I’d still prefer one bar with some added skill/passive options to enhance depth, but your suggestion would at least make the current setup feel a lot smoother and less clunky.

If you have ever played Diablo 2 remastered for console, this is precisely how they handle the front bar/back bar issue - since the game was designed to be played with keyboard and you had 10 hot button options. For console controls, they have you play with a front bar - back bar setup, and you hold either LT or RT to access one bar, and you let it go to go back to the other bar. It is much more smooth than what we have in this game, but blocking in that game happens automatically based on your block chance.

In this game, light attacks and blocking all happen based on player actions, AND we have an ultimate for both bars, so our "action" buttons are all loaded up, so if you want to preserve the current combat system, you almost need to remake the entire system to have a cleaner bar swap system (which is what i HATE the most about the 2 bar system). IMO, the best solution would be to have light attacks occur automatically at set intervals so when you use abilities you are basically light attack weaving automatically. That would, IMO also balance out the game more and lessen the gap between those who do animation cancelling and those who dont - again, one of the goals of the oakensoul build.

I understand that none of this is likely to happen which is why I simply accept the 2 bar system that we have, but I just know from experience, having only 1 bar as a support role would simply not be sufficient. There are times I feel like TWO bars are insufficient for a support role.

QB1 · April 17

Iriidius wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Okay, hear me out... what if ZOS removed Oakensoul and removed bar swapping entirely?

I know it sounds wild at first, but with how much power has crept into two-bar builds, how bloated some rotations have become, how hard it is to balance PvP and PvE across so many skill sources, and all of the game's performance issues, maybe it’s not such a bad idea. And with the new subclassing announcement, ZOS has shown they aren't afraid to make core changes to the game. Here are some reasons why a full one-bar system could actually be good for the game:

🔧 1. Easier to Balance
No more juggling buffs across two bars or stacking utility from skills you barely use. A one-bar system would level the field and make it much easier for ZOS to balance skill lines, sets, and roles.

🔥 2. Stronger Build Identity
This right here is the main reason I don't play two bar builds anymore. Want to be a bow ranger? A fire mage? A melee bruiser? One-bar builds force you to focus. You pick the abilities that define your role—not 3 damage skills, 6 of the same buffs you’d run on every other build, and a flex slot. That makes every build feel more thematic and intentional. This fits with the new subclassing announcement and hopefully, in the future, a full classless build system.

⚔️ 3. Less Power Creep
Two-bar players run around with 12 total skills, multiple sources of buffs, healing, and CC all on one character. Two-bar setups let people do everything at once. One-bar builds reign that in and bring the game back to more strategic, focused combat.

🎮 4. More Accessible for New and Casual Players
Let’s be honest: bar swapping, buff upkeep, animation canceling—these are huge skill gaps. One-bar combat would make ESO way more approachable, letting more players feel competitive without needing a spreadsheet rotation.

🧼 5. Cleaner UI, Faster Combat Flow
No more bouncing between bars just to refresh a 20s buff. You stay in the action, you stay engaged, and the interface becomes way easier to read and manage. It’s streamlined, and that’s not a bad thing.

🤝 6. Encourages Team Play & Counters Ball Groups
With only one bar, players would have to specialize more, meaning damage builds can’t also stack heals, purges, and buffs. That makes team roles more meaningful and limits the power of ball groups that rely on stacking all of the same skills on each player. It levels the field for smaller, coordinated groups and brings back tactical group PvP over ball group steamrolling.

🛠️ 7. Better Performance in Cyrodiil
The Vengeance test proved that simplicity is what's best for Cyrodiil. Every extra ability cast, buff tick, and bar swap animation adds to server load. Reducing the number of active skills by half across every player would lighten the processing load significantly. Fewer skill checks, fewer calculations, better stability. It’s not a silver bullet, but it’s a step in the right direction for performance.

You already can play 1bar builds (with oakensoul) if you want like you know yourself.
The intention of this change is not to make playing onebar easier for players that want to play onebar but to prevent players that want to play twobar from playing twobar.

1.At a great cost it wouldn't make balancing so much easier and ZoS would still fail at balancing.
2.You can have as much or more build identity with 2bar than with 1bar. Even if you need some skills on almost every build you still have more remaining skills for your build identity than with 1bar and even on 1bar you have to slot some skills for every build.
3. Doing everything at once is necessary in solo content. Solo players need to do everything at once because nobody else is doing the things for them they dont do themselves.
4. Barswapping was never one of of all the things making me feel uncompetitive and the game feel unaccessible. For players where it makes them feel this way oakensoul exists. For players not having oakensoul or unable to wear it because they're low level ZoS could add onebar option without disabling twobar for everyone.
They could give everyone most of oakensoul buffs when they dont have weapons and skills slotted on second bar or give you option to lock it in menu.
5. There are a lot more reasons to barswap than refreshing a single buff skill.
6. Ballgroups have team roles including dd, support and healer and do not stack heals, purge and buffs on dds but mostly on healer and support who don’t deal dmg. Ballgroups are not stacking same skills on every player. Only echoing vigor is on everyone. It unlevels playing field for real ballgroups over solo players and pseudo ballgroups and limits the power of solo players even further making ballgroups steamroll even more. This again forces players not wanting to play roles to play roles rather than making it easier/more fun to play roles for players who want.
7. Vengeance simplified everything enaugh and lag was already gone, no need to simplify even more.

Just to be clear, the intention isn’t to prevent anyone from playing two-bar. The goal is to make the game better overall: better performing, with stronger build identity, less repetitive buff maintenance, more accessibility for all types of players, and ultimately, more fun. If ZOS committed to reworking the system from the ground up, I think those gains are possible.

Soarora · April 17

QB1 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

As a dps I dont think I'd care one bar or not, but as a tank that would be miserable. I know a few oaken/one bar tanks idk how they stand it.

To be honest I’ve never trusted the idea of an oakentank. Some classes (like cro) have just too many good skills to slot on 2 bars let alone 1. They’re very likely missing (de-)buffs…

Like I said above, I think part of why one-bar seems unworkable for you guys is because you're still viewing it through a two-bar lens. Of course it feels limiting if you’re used to everything being available. But one-bar tanks (and one-bar necro tanks at that) exist and are able to complete all content.

And again, I know it's not for everyone, but if the whole system were rebalanced around one-bar play, I think it would lead to cleaner, more focused builds and maybe even reduce the overload that keeps some players from tanking or doing group content at all.

Do you have evidence of one-bar tanks (let alone necro) completing all content or are you just saying that? As I outlined previously, support roles are already limited on space and pushing us to one-bar would make build diversity worse because choice would be taken away due to the necessary skills. If these necessary skills were made unnecessary then tanking would get boring, which is a complaint people already have when trying out tanking. Tanking is not the DoT management game of DPS, I don’t think anyones getting overwhelmed by having 2 bars.

Evidence, really? You don't think a one bar tank would be able to, at the very least, just complete all vet content in the game? If not, that's a problem in and of itself. But I'm saying that based on experience having ran vet trials with a friend who plays a one bar tank.

Again, it seems like you're coming at this from a two-bar, current-state-of-things lens. Support roles feel limited? I don't get that. Healers are literally running burst heals, hots, buffs, debuffs, etc. Tanks are running buffs, debuffs, pulls, heals, shields, etc. How tf is that limited? lol

All the vet content? Not efficiently but sure. All the hardmode content? Might run into mitigation/self-heals/duration of fight problems. Either way, I doubt they’re applying all the buffs/debuffs that they should, making the fights take longer.
I’m not sure what perspective you’re wanting here then, for all 10 spots to be one one bar? Still wouldn’t have weapon diversity.

Yes, limited. Look, here’s my cro tank:
Chain
Melee taunt (major & minor breach)
Self-heal
Ultgen skill
Reduce block cost
Defensive ult

Mitigation skill
Ranged taunt
Major resolve
Sustain skill
Wall (crusher)
Offensive ult

I’m missing minor vulnerability & aoe major breach, maim, heroism, vamp drain, and who knows what else. Could I squeeze them in there? Sure. Comfortably? No.

So how would you make that all one bar and have room for a flex spot for crushing shock/race against time/etc.?

QB1 · April 17

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

This is a big "PASS" for me. As In this would limit play too much to be viable. As someone who plays healer and tank more often than DPS, I can tell you right now there would be way too much missing from our kits if we went strictly to 1 bar for everything.

I'm not defending the bar swap game play "mechanic." I absolutely hate how it works in this game. But unless they give us permanent "passive" slots and more skills that we just equip for passives, and then turned around and did a lot of reworking of class kits and abilities, this is just not viable.

I'd rather them take a look at the bar swap mechanics and figure out a better way to make them work mechanically, and let people CHOOSE to play 1 bar or not via the oakensoul. There is give-take with making the choice to 1 bar vs. 2 bar at least.

Idk I think that's part of the tradeoff we're talking about -- one bar pushes for new, more defined roles instead of what we have now where tanks can also heal and buff, healers buff and dps, etc.

I do like your idea about the passive skill slots, and another commenter mentioned maybe giving us another two active skills as well. I think those things could definitely be a way forward and it would help maintain flexibility without forcing players into the constant barswapping.

But overall, I do agree that at the very least ZOS needs to take a look at the bar swap mechanic.

I don't think forcing players to 1 bar forces them into a more defined role at all. Tanks in high-end content often have to pull trash mobs or a sub-boss away from the group to prevent bad things from happening, meaning they're far away from where they can get healed. Without a tank's ability to heal itself, you would end up with a dead tank every time and the encounter would be impossible to pass. As for tanks healing a group? If a tank can do that (it takes certain builds to be able to provide adequate healing as a tank) more power to them. I see that as more of a class identity issue than anything. A DK tank is not going to be healing a 1T/3dd dungeon group. A templar tank could, but you sacrifice certain things that the DK tank could do. So even then, there is give/take.

For bar swap mechanics, I'd really like them to rework the combat system so that light attacks just happen automatically, freeing up the ability to Hold/release the RT (currently used for light/heavy attacks) to bar swap from front bar to back bar. ALL games that I have played that have used this mechanic function better using this bar swap system vs. the D-Pad bar swap. But something has to give - either the light attack/heavy attack system or the block system.

I really like your idea about rethinking bar swap input entirely. Making bar swapping more intuitive could be a great middle ground if full one-bar isn’t the move. Personally, I’d still prefer one bar with some added skill/passive options to enhance depth, but your suggestion would at least make the current setup feel a lot smoother and less clunky.

If you have ever played Diablo 2 remastered for console, this is precisely how they handle the front bar/back bar issue - since the game was designed to be played with keyboard and you had 10 hot button options. For console controls, they have you play with a front bar - back bar setup, and you hold either LT or RT to access one bar, and you let it go to go back to the other bar. It is much more smooth than what we have in this game, but blocking in that game happens automatically based on your block chance.

In this game, light attacks and blocking all happen based on player actions, AND we have an ultimate for both bars, so our "action" buttons are all loaded up, so if you want to preserve the current combat system, you almost need to remake the entire system to have a cleaner bar swap system (which is what i HATE the most about the 2 bar system). IMO, the best solution would be to have light attacks occur automatically at set intervals so when you use abilities you are basically light attack weaving automatically. That would, IMO also balance out the game more and lessen the gap between those who do animation cancelling and those who dont - again, one of the goals of the oakensoul build.

I understand that none of this is likely to happen which is why I simply accept the 2 bar system that we have, but I just know from experience, having only 1 bar as a support role would simply not be sufficient. There are times I feel like TWO bars are insufficient for a support role.

Yup I think if two bar is here to stay, moving to a system closer to what you mentioned would be great. Anything to get away from the constant back and forth weapon swapping and buff management. It just looks and feels completely silly.

Where I disagree, is that support roles would feel limited. Like I said above, it's going to feel limited if you're playing one-bar when everyone else is playing two. It's going to feel limited if you're viewing things through a current-state-of-things lens. But right now healers are running burst heals, hots, buffs, debuffs, etc. Tanks are running buffs, debuffs, pulls, heals, shields, etc. How is that limited?

Also, to your point about Oakensoul, it might lessen the gap between two-bar players but the gap is still way too big. Everyone thinks one-bar players are people with disabilities running heavy attack builds when many of us came from being sweaty two-bar players and still enjoy animation canceling and the overall combat of the game, just without the constant barswapping buff/dot management and the ability to actually feel like we have a unique build instead of cramming every passive buff imaginable on our bars.

Iriidius · April 17

QB1 wrote: »

TheImperfect wrote: »

Definitely not for me. I haven't even tried Oakensoul yet as it just doesn't appeal to me. I think bar swapping makes the game more unique and fun to play and adds a level of challenge.

That’s valid. If bar swapping adds fun and challenge for you, I respect that. It looks like a lot of people agree with you! But I know there are a lot of us that feel one-bar builds are more refined and less about cramming as many skills as possible on your bar.

With the current system, players can literally do everything. In PvE, you have healers healing, buffing, and dpsing. You have dps dpsing, buffing, and sometimes healing. You have tanks taunting, buffing, and healing too. In PvP, you’ve got immortal god builds able to deal huge damage, self-heal, shield, buff, and sustain it all for long periods.

Again, it's cool if you guys like things how they are. But I think it’s worth having a conversation about whether the current two-bar system is actually helping or hurting the game. Consolidating to one bar could help define roles and identity more clearly, create tighter and more meaningful choices, and move away from the do-everything builds. Obviously I know it wouldn't be for everyone, but I think it’s a direction worth exploring. That's all

Beeing able to deal dmg, self-heal/shield(, sustain) and buff doesnt make you great at all of them.
Not everyone doing it is a god build, many are prey for godbuilds and still suffer from enforcing onebar and roles.
A dd must be able to selfbuff and selfheal if tanks and healers are often missing, fake or dead and in solo content unavailable.
Onebar builds at oakensoul launch before nerf are were often immortal god builds so strong skilled 2bar PvPers bought high isle just to get oakensoul because it allowed them to do things impossible with 2 bars.
A healer can still do more healing and a dd deal more dmg and a tank take more dmg without dying than a mixture.
If you want to explore 1bar, do it with players who want to explore 1bar insteat of forcing everyone.

QB1 · April 17

Soarora wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

As a dps I dont think I'd care one bar or not, but as a tank that would be miserable. I know a few oaken/one bar tanks idk how they stand it.

To be honest I’ve never trusted the idea of an oakentank. Some classes (like cro) have just too many good skills to slot on 2 bars let alone 1. They’re very likely missing (de-)buffs…

Like I said above, I think part of why one-bar seems unworkable for you guys is because you're still viewing it through a two-bar lens. Of course it feels limiting if you’re used to everything being available. But one-bar tanks (and one-bar necro tanks at that) exist and are able to complete all content.

And again, I know it's not for everyone, but if the whole system were rebalanced around one-bar play, I think it would lead to cleaner, more focused builds and maybe even reduce the overload that keeps some players from tanking or doing group content at all.

Do you have evidence of one-bar tanks (let alone necro) completing all content or are you just saying that? As I outlined previously, support roles are already limited on space and pushing us to one-bar would make build diversity worse because choice would be taken away due to the necessary skills. If these necessary skills were made unnecessary then tanking would get boring, which is a complaint people already have when trying out tanking. Tanking is not the DoT management game of DPS, I don’t think anyones getting overwhelmed by having 2 bars.

Evidence, really? You don't think a one bar tank would be able to, at the very least, just complete all vet content in the game? If not, that's a problem in and of itself. But I'm saying that based on experience having ran vet trials with a friend who plays a one bar tank.

Again, it seems like you're coming at this from a two-bar, current-state-of-things lens. Support roles feel limited? I don't get that. Healers are literally running burst heals, hots, buffs, debuffs, etc. Tanks are running buffs, debuffs, pulls, heals, shields, etc. How tf is that limited? lol

All the vet content? Not efficiently but sure. All the hardmode content? Might run into mitigation/self-heals/duration of fight problems. Either way, I doubt they’re applying all the buffs/debuffs that they should, making the fights take longer.
I’m not sure what perspective you’re wanting here then, for all 10 spots to be one one bar? Still wouldn’t have weapon diversity.

Yes, limited. Look, here’s my cro tank:
Chain
Melee taunt (major & minor breach)
Self-heal
Ultgen skill
Reduce block cost
Defensive ult

Mitigation skill
Ranged taunt
Major resolve
Sustain skill
Wall (crusher)
Offensive ult

I’m missing minor vulnerability & aoe major breach, maim, heroism, vamp drain, and who knows what else. Could I squeeze them in there? Sure. Comfortably? No.

So how would you make that all one bar and have room for a flex spot for crushing shock/race against time/etc.?

You wouldn't (and again, the entire argument here is you SHOULDN'T) have access to all of that on one build.

Your tank has melee taunt, ranged taunt, pull, heals, ultigen, reduce block skill, major resolve buff, wall for crusher debuff, sustain skill, both offense and defensive ult. Got it. And you're still talking about all of the missing buffs and debuffs you should have.

Every end-game tank looks exactly like that. Where what we could have are tanks that specialize as pull tanks, melee tanks, ranged tanks, an ultigen tank, a self-heal tank, etc. Just ideas.

The entire argument here is that players should not have all of those things at once. So what if encounters take a little longer? So what if it's not as "efficient?" ZOS can adjust the health pools of bosses, if it's that big of a deal, idk. But having all of that one one build is silly (my opinion of course) and that's the whole point of this post, in addition to the other ways I think moving to one bar could benefit the game long-term.

Soarora · April 17

QB1 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

As a dps I dont think I'd care one bar or not, but as a tank that would be miserable. I know a few oaken/one bar tanks idk how they stand it.

To be honest I’ve never trusted the idea of an oakentank. Some classes (like cro) have just too many good skills to slot on 2 bars let alone 1. They’re very likely missing (de-)buffs…

Like I said above, I think part of why one-bar seems unworkable for you guys is because you're still viewing it through a two-bar lens. Of course it feels limiting if you’re used to everything being available. But one-bar tanks (and one-bar necro tanks at that) exist and are able to complete all content.

And again, I know it's not for everyone, but if the whole system were rebalanced around one-bar play, I think it would lead to cleaner, more focused builds and maybe even reduce the overload that keeps some players from tanking or doing group content at all.

Do you have evidence of one-bar tanks (let alone necro) completing all content or are you just saying that? As I outlined previously, support roles are already limited on space and pushing us to one-bar would make build diversity worse because choice would be taken away due to the necessary skills. If these necessary skills were made unnecessary then tanking would get boring, which is a complaint people already have when trying out tanking. Tanking is not the DoT management game of DPS, I don’t think anyones getting overwhelmed by having 2 bars.

Evidence, really? You don't think a one bar tank would be able to, at the very least, just complete all vet content in the game? If not, that's a problem in and of itself. But I'm saying that based on experience having ran vet trials with a friend who plays a one bar tank.

Again, it seems like you're coming at this from a two-bar, current-state-of-things lens. Support roles feel limited? I don't get that. Healers are literally running burst heals, hots, buffs, debuffs, etc. Tanks are running buffs, debuffs, pulls, heals, shields, etc. How tf is that limited? lol

All the vet content? Not efficiently but sure. All the hardmode content? Might run into mitigation/self-heals/duration of fight problems. Either way, I doubt they’re applying all the buffs/debuffs that they should, making the fights take longer.
I’m not sure what perspective you’re wanting here then, for all 10 spots to be one one bar? Still wouldn’t have weapon diversity.

Yes, limited. Look, here’s my cro tank:
Chain
Melee taunt (major & minor breach)
Self-heal
Ultgen skill
Reduce block cost
Defensive ult

Mitigation skill
Ranged taunt
Major resolve
Sustain skill
Wall (crusher)
Offensive ult

I’m missing minor vulnerability & aoe major breach, maim, heroism, vamp drain, and who knows what else. Could I squeeze them in there? Sure. Comfortably? No.

So how would you make that all one bar and have room for a flex spot for crushing shock/race against time/etc.?

You wouldn't (and again, the entire argument here is you SHOULDN'T) have access to all of that on one build.

Your tank has melee taunt, ranged taunt, pull, heals, ultigen, reduce block skill, major resolve buff, wall for crusher debuff, sustain skill, both offense and defensive ult. Got it. And you're still talking about all of the missing buffs and debuffs you should have.

Every end-game tank looks exactly like that. Where what we could have are tanks that specialize as pull tanks, melee tanks, ranged tanks, an ultigen tank, a self-heal tank, etc. Just ideas.

The entire argument here is that players should not have all of those things at once. So what if encounters take a little longer? So what if it's not as "efficient?" ZOS can adjust the health pools of bosses, if it's that big of a deal, idk. But having all of that one one build is silly (my opinion of course) and that's the whole point of this post, in addition to the other ways I think moving to one bar could benefit the game long-term.

And why not? All of it is just in reference to tanking. I’m not DPSing, I’m not healing. I’m mitigating the damage I’m taking and the only debuffs I’m doing is removing armor from enemies which is a tank’s job as shown by the armor sets being heavy armor and it being on tank skills.

You cannot specialize, you need to adapt to the fight.

QB1 · April 17

Iriidius wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

TheImperfect wrote: »

Definitely not for me. I haven't even tried Oakensoul yet as it just doesn't appeal to me. I think bar swapping makes the game more unique and fun to play and adds a level of challenge.

That’s valid. If bar swapping adds fun and challenge for you, I respect that. It looks like a lot of people agree with you! But I know there are a lot of us that feel one-bar builds are more refined and less about cramming as many skills as possible on your bar.

With the current system, players can literally do everything. In PvE, you have healers healing, buffing, and dpsing. You have dps dpsing, buffing, and sometimes healing. You have tanks taunting, buffing, and healing too. In PvP, you’ve got immortal god builds able to deal huge damage, self-heal, shield, buff, and sustain it all for long periods.

Again, it's cool if you guys like things how they are. But I think it’s worth having a conversation about whether the current two-bar system is actually helping or hurting the game. Consolidating to one bar could help define roles and identity more clearly, create tighter and more meaningful choices, and move away from the do-everything builds. Obviously I know it wouldn't be for everyone, but I think it’s a direction worth exploring. That's all

Beeing able to deal dmg, self-heal/shield(, sustain) and buff doesnt make you great at all of them.
Not everyone doing it is a god build, many are prey for godbuilds and still suffer from enforcing onebar and roles.
A dd must be able to selfbuff and selfheal if tanks and healers are often missing, fake or dead and in solo content unavailable.
Onebar builds at oakensoul launch before nerf are were often immortal god builds so strong skilled 2bar PvPers bought high isle just to get oakensoul because it allowed them to do things impossible with 2 bars.
A healer can still do more healing and a dd deal more dmg and a tank take more dmg without dying than a mixture.
If you want to explore 1bar, do it with players who want to explore 1bar insteat of forcing everyone.

I, and many others, already do that! Again, if you prefer two bar, that's completely fine. No need to take this as a personal attack

It's just an idea and a list of reasons why a move to one bar across the board could be good for the game.

QB1 · April 17

Soarora wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

As a dps I dont think I'd care one bar or not, but as a tank that would be miserable. I know a few oaken/one bar tanks idk how they stand it.

To be honest I’ve never trusted the idea of an oakentank. Some classes (like cro) have just too many good skills to slot on 2 bars let alone 1. They’re very likely missing (de-)buffs…

Like I said above, I think part of why one-bar seems unworkable for you guys is because you're still viewing it through a two-bar lens. Of course it feels limiting if you’re used to everything being available. But one-bar tanks (and one-bar necro tanks at that) exist and are able to complete all content.

And again, I know it's not for everyone, but if the whole system were rebalanced around one-bar play, I think it would lead to cleaner, more focused builds and maybe even reduce the overload that keeps some players from tanking or doing group content at all.

Do you have evidence of one-bar tanks (let alone necro) completing all content or are you just saying that? As I outlined previously, support roles are already limited on space and pushing us to one-bar would make build diversity worse because choice would be taken away due to the necessary skills. If these necessary skills were made unnecessary then tanking would get boring, which is a complaint people already have when trying out tanking. Tanking is not the DoT management game of DPS, I don’t think anyones getting overwhelmed by having 2 bars.

Evidence, really? You don't think a one bar tank would be able to, at the very least, just complete all vet content in the game? If not, that's a problem in and of itself. But I'm saying that based on experience having ran vet trials with a friend who plays a one bar tank.

Again, it seems like you're coming at this from a two-bar, current-state-of-things lens. Support roles feel limited? I don't get that. Healers are literally running burst heals, hots, buffs, debuffs, etc. Tanks are running buffs, debuffs, pulls, heals, shields, etc. How tf is that limited? lol

All the vet content? Not efficiently but sure. All the hardmode content? Might run into mitigation/self-heals/duration of fight problems. Either way, I doubt they’re applying all the buffs/debuffs that they should, making the fights take longer.
I’m not sure what perspective you’re wanting here then, for all 10 spots to be one one bar? Still wouldn’t have weapon diversity.

Yes, limited. Look, here’s my cro tank:
Chain
Melee taunt (major & minor breach)
Self-heal
Ultgen skill
Reduce block cost
Defensive ult

Mitigation skill
Ranged taunt
Major resolve
Sustain skill
Wall (crusher)
Offensive ult

I’m missing minor vulnerability & aoe major breach, maim, heroism, vamp drain, and who knows what else. Could I squeeze them in there? Sure. Comfortably? No.

So how would you make that all one bar and have room for a flex spot for crushing shock/race against time/etc.?

You wouldn't (and again, the entire argument here is you SHOULDN'T) have access to all of that on one build.

Your tank has melee taunt, ranged taunt, pull, heals, ultigen, reduce block skill, major resolve buff, wall for crusher debuff, sustain skill, both offense and defensive ult. Got it. And you're still talking about all of the missing buffs and debuffs you should have.

Every end-game tank looks exactly like that. Where what we could have are tanks that specialize as pull tanks, melee tanks, ranged tanks, an ultigen tank, a self-heal tank, etc. Just ideas.

The entire argument here is that players should not have all of those things at once. So what if encounters take a little longer? So what if it's not as "efficient?" ZOS can adjust the health pools of bosses, if it's that big of a deal, idk. But having all of that one one build is silly (my opinion of course) and that's the whole point of this post, in addition to the other ways I think moving to one bar could benefit the game long-term.

And why not? All of it is just in reference to tanking. I’m not DPSing, I’m not healing. I’m mitigating the damage I’m taking and the only debuffs I’m doing is removing armor from enemies which is a tank’s job as shown by the armor sets being heavy armor and it being on tank skills.

You cannot specialize, you need to adapt to the fight.

Agree that tanks need to be able to adapt to different fights. No argument there.

But the point I’m making isn’t that tanks (or any role) should suddenly lose the ability to tank or do their job effectively. It’s that the current system forces every tank to look the same because they have to cover everything at once. There’s very little room for meaningful build diversity when every fight expects the same toolkit: ranged taunt, melee taunt, sustain, all of the buffs and debuffs possible, etc.

Right now, if you're not running all of those things, you’re seen as underperforming (by your own admission), even if your build is thematically or strategically sound. That’s kind of what I'm challenging with this post.

With a one-bar system (and rebalanced encounters to match) you could have tanks that lean into different specialties without being punished for it. A tank that’s amazing at ultigen but sacrifices pull utility. A self-healing bruiser-style tank that gives up some buffs/debuffs. A pure healer. A pure buffer/debuffer. It would open the door to more interesting roles within the support role itself, instead of forcing everyone into the same all-purpose template.

I know we're not going to come to an agreement on this, or end up seeing things eye to eye lol but either way, I do appreciate the back and forth. It's been a good conversation.

Artim_X · April 17

QB1 wrote: »

Artim_X wrote: »

My lightning sorcerer only works thematically with all the storm calling skills, majority of the destruction staff skills, and two scribed skills so IMHO making one-bar the only playstyle would really grind my gears.

I also play 5 different one-bar builds: pet sorcerer, aedric spear templar, herald of the tome arcanist, a pure bow sorcerer, and a shadow focused nightblade.

If someone cannot or does not want to play a two-bar build, then it is up to them and them alone to create a one-bar build that works for their playstyle. There is nothing stopping players from making one-bar builds that are viable.

Love all those builds!! But I think you could work your lightning sorc work on one bar as well I have one too lol

And yeah, I know there's nothing’s stopping players from choosing one-bar setups today, I have 12 of them, all changed from two bar to one. But they're never going to be close to the top two-bar PvE and PvP builds.

That said, the idea I'm exploring isn't just about making one-bar viable, it's about imagining what the game could look like if everyone played with one bar. Maybe that means adding a couple more skills to our bar. I know not everyone would love it, but based on the reasons I list in the original post, I believe it could be good for the game.

Unfortunately it can only work logically with two-bars in relation to variety and utility.

Power Overload: Unique melee ranged ultimate that only uses a portion of my ultimate, so I can use this for a burst of decent damage without sacrificing my entire ultimate

Mages' Wrath: execute skill that looks awesome.

Boundless Storm: Skill for burst of speed (utility) and armor. Also thematically perfect to become lightning itself.

Lightning Flood: aoe skill that is not locked to character location.

Critical Surge: primary source of healing without breaking the theme of the character.

Streak: gap closer, stun, and movement skill that is a must when simple speed boost isn't enough

Unstable Wall of Elements: aoe skill for enemies directly in front of player that pairs well with flopd.

Destructive Reach: single target damage over time.

Pulsar: aoe spammable.

Elemental Rage: Aoe ultimate that can be placed where I need it.

Shocking soul: single target spammable that I also use for getting empower to boost heavy attack damage without relying on skills/sets that break the theme.

Shocking burst: aoe skill I use for interrupting enemies around without needing to bash them.

Now Oakensoul makes sense for my pet sorc or bow sorc builds due to it covering needed buffs while I can just focus on using 5 skills and a ultimate, but as explained above there is a lot of utility and flavor lost when losing a whole bar.

Adding more skills to one-bar would significantly impact gamepad users like myself, so that just wouldn't work.

Personally if the second bar was removed I'd go from Sorcerer King to Sorcerer's Apprentice

QB1 · April 17

Artim_X wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Artim_X wrote: »

My lightning sorcerer only works thematically with all the storm calling skills, majority of the destruction staff skills, and two scribed skills so IMHO making one-bar the only playstyle would really grind my gears.

I also play 5 different one-bar builds: pet sorcerer, aedric spear templar, herald of the tome arcanist, a pure bow sorcerer, and a shadow focused nightblade.

If someone cannot or does not want to play a two-bar build, then it is up to them and them alone to create a one-bar build that works for their playstyle. There is nothing stopping players from making one-bar builds that are viable.

Love all those builds!! But I think you could work your lightning sorc work on one bar as well I have one too lol

And yeah, I know there's nothing’s stopping players from choosing one-bar setups today, I have 12 of them, all changed from two bar to one. But they're never going to be close to the top two-bar PvE and PvP builds.

That said, the idea I'm exploring isn't just about making one-bar viable, it's about imagining what the game could look like if everyone played with one bar. Maybe that means adding a couple more skills to our bar. I know not everyone would love it, but based on the reasons I list in the original post, I believe it could be good for the game.

Unfortunately it can only work logically with two-bars in relation to variety and utility.

Power Overload: Unique melee ranged ultimate that only uses a portion of my ultimate, so I can use this for a burst of decent damage without sacrificing my entire ultimate

Mages' Wrath: execute skill that looks awesome.

Boundless Storm: Skill for burst of speed (utility) and armor. Also thematically perfect to become lightning itself.

Lightning Flood: aoe skill that is not locked to character location.

Critical Surge: primary source of healing without breaking the theme of the character.

Streak: gap closer, stun, and movement skill that is a must when simple speed boost isn't enough

Unstable Wall of Elements: aoe skill for enemies directly in front of player that pairs well with flopd.

Destructive Reach: single target damage over time.

Pulsar: aoe spammable.

Elemental Rage: Aoe ultimate that can be placed where I need it.

Shocking soul: single target spammable that I also use for getting empower to boost heavy attack damage without relying on skills/sets that break the theme.

Shocking burst: aoe skill I use for interrupting enemies around without needing to bash them.

Now Oakensoul makes sense for my pet sorc or bow sorc builds due to it covering needed buffs while I can just focus on using 5 skills and a ultimate, but as explained above there is a lot of utility and flavor lost when losing a whole bar.

Adding more skills to one-bar would significantly impact gamepad users like myself, so that just wouldn't work.

Personally if the second bar was removed I'd go from Sorcerer King to Sorcerer's Apprentice

Haha love the breakdown, and truly, I love that idea for a pure lightning mage.

My counter to you would be that going one bar you could have two different build loadouts for your lightning mage, a single target and aoe build. Right now your build has a lot of single target, a lot of aoe, healing, cc/movement, armor, etc. I know a lot of people like being able to have all of that stuff, my main argument is I don't think we should have all of that, and that it could actually benefit the game if we didn't.

All that said, I think your build is awesome! Do you have any other themed builds like that?

Wereswan · April 17

QB1 wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

One of my alts is a double-pet Sorc. Since pets have to be dual-barred, that leaves a grand total of six (6) open slots.

That already feels painfully cramped. I can't imagine cutting it down further.

In short, nope!

Curious, what do you use for your other six skills?

Honestly, I don't enjoy playing it because it feels so limited, so it's currently just an eclectic mix of whatever I'm trying to level up to 4. Daedric Prey is basically a given, though, since so much of a two-pet build's damage comes from the pets.

Edit to add: I do kind of like the idea of her as an aristocratic sort of character who finds actual brawling with the NPCs beneath her. "I'm not going to fight you; Flaps and Snarls are going to do that."

Haha I love the RP angle for the build, Flaps and Snarls is amazing That said, you're saying you have six open slots (one of them being the obvious Daedric Prey) and then the rest you just mix whatever? So depending on what content you're playing, the rest of those skills are going to be buffs, heals, dots, shields, etc, all skills everyone else is likely using as well to fill their bars.

My argument is players shouldn't be able to do all of that. Your pet sorc should be five pets and an ultimate, or maybe they could up the number of active skills to 7 or something. Seven skills and an ultimate. Again, I know not everyone would love it. But I think it would be better for the game.

I would absolutely hate that. 10 ability and 2 ult slots already limits me to 2/3rds of my class skills, not to mention all the other skill lines we have available. Also, what I was saying is that I currently mix-and-match those skills because I'm still trying to grind at least all the basic ones up to morphable level; once that's done, I do intend to pick a consistent damage-focused set.

[Part of the reason I do it this way is so I can change characters up easily if a given build gets stale or gets a harsh nerf.]

Iriidius · April 17

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

This is a big "PASS" for me. As In this would limit play too much to be viable. As someone who plays healer and tank more often than DPS, I can tell you right now there would be way too much missing from our kits if we went strictly to 1 bar for everything.

I'm not defending the bar swap game play "mechanic." I absolutely hate how it works in this game. But unless they give us permanent "passive" slots and more skills that we just equip for passives, and then turned around and did a lot of reworking of class kits and abilities, this is just not viable.

I'd rather them take a look at the bar swap mechanics and figure out a better way to make them work mechanically, and let people CHOOSE to play 1 bar or not via the oakensoul. There is give-take with making the choice to 1 bar vs. 2 bar at least.

Idk I think that's part of the tradeoff we're talking about -- one bar pushes for new, more defined roles instead of what we have now where tanks can also heal and buff, healers buff and dps, etc.

I do like your idea about the passive skill slots, and another commenter mentioned maybe giving us another two active skills as well. I think those things could definitely be a way forward and it would help maintain flexibility without forcing players into the constant barswapping.

But overall, I do agree that at the very least ZOS needs to take a look at the bar swap mechanic.

I don't think forcing players to 1 bar forces them into a more defined role at all. Tanks in high-end content often have to pull trash mobs or a sub-boss away from the group to prevent bad things from happening, meaning they're far away from where they can get healed. Without a tank's ability to heal itself, you would end up with a dead tank every time and the encounter would be impossible to pass. As for tanks healing a group? If a tank can do that (it takes certain builds to be able to provide adequate healing as a tank) more power to them. I see that as more of a class identity issue than anything. A DK tank is not going to be healing a 1T/3dd dungeon group. A templar tank could, but you sacrifice certain things that the DK tank could do. So even then, there is give/take.

For bar swap mechanics, I'd really like them to rework the combat system so that light attacks just happen automatically, freeing up the ability to Hold/release the RT (currently used for light/heavy attacks) to bar swap from front bar to back bar. ALL games that I have played that have used this mechanic function better using this bar swap system vs. the D-Pad bar swap. But something has to give - either the light attack/heavy attack system or the block system.

Forcing players into other playstiles like dd, healer, tank(trinity) or 1bar should not happen anyway.

If players want to play trinity role and have friends wanting to play trinity with roles completing it you can already do play with trinity.

If players don’t want to play trinity that is their right at least until ZoS says otherwise and enforces role trinity and it is ZoS right not to do so and if they do many players will rather quit than play trinity.

If players dont have friends wanting to play trinity they cant even play trinity and taking away their ability to play without means they cant play at all.

Dungeon finder can form trinity dungeon groups for you althought with many fake tanks/healers and for some trials there is group finder and claglorn pugs but in much other PvE content not, Battleground queue is without roles as mandatory roles seem not intended in battlegrounds by zos and in Cyrodiil there are no pugs usually not to mention pugs with roles.

Iriidius · April 17

Wereswan wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

One of my alts is a double-pet Sorc. Since pets have to be dual-barred, that leaves a grand total of six (6) open slots.

That already feels painfully cramped. I can't imagine cutting it down further.

In short, nope!

Curious, what do you use for your other six skills?

Honestly, I don't enjoy playing it because it feels so limited, so it's currently just an eclectic mix of whatever I'm trying to level up to 4. Daedric Prey is basically a given, though, since so much of a two-pet build's damage comes from the pets.

Edit to add: I do kind of like the idea of her as an aristocratic sort of character who finds actual brawling with the NPCs beneath her. "I'm not going to fight you; Flaps and Snarls are going to do that."

Haha I love the RP angle for the build, Flaps and Snarls is amazing That said, you're saying you have six open slots (one of them being the obvious Daedric Prey) and then the rest you just mix whatever? So depending on what content you're playing, the rest of those skills are going to be buffs, heals, dots, shields, etc, all skills everyone else is likely using as well to fill their bars.

My argument is players shouldn't be able to do all of that. Your pet sorc should be five pets and an ultimate, or maybe they could up the number of active skills to 7 or something. Seven skills and an ultimate. Again, I know not everyone would love it. But I think it would be better for the game.

I would absolutely hate that. 10 ability and 2 ult slots already limits me to 2/3rds of my class skills, not to mention all the other skill lines we have available. Also, what I was saying is that I currently mix-and-match those skills because I'm still trying to grind at least all the basic ones up to morphable level; once that's done, I do intend to pick a consistent damage-focused set.

[Part of the reason I do it this way is so I can change characters up easily if a given build gets stale or gets a harsh nerf.]

Yeah on my DK I would need 3 bars to slot all skills I would like to slot. Sorcerer also needs many slots for all the passive slots(magelight, bound armor) or doublebar pets and could use a few slots for vigor, hurricane(insteat of chudan), an aoe or dots.
Would probably be very unbalanced if they got but with so many things to slot reducing to 1bar would be very limiting.

Soarora · April 17

QB1 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

As a dps I dont think I'd care one bar or not, but as a tank that would be miserable. I know a few oaken/one bar tanks idk how they stand it.

To be honest I’ve never trusted the idea of an oakentank. Some classes (like cro) have just too many good skills to slot on 2 bars let alone 1. They’re very likely missing (de-)buffs…

Like I said above, I think part of why one-bar seems unworkable for you guys is because you're still viewing it through a two-bar lens. Of course it feels limiting if you’re used to everything being available. But one-bar tanks (and one-bar necro tanks at that) exist and are able to complete all content.

And again, I know it's not for everyone, but if the whole system were rebalanced around one-bar play, I think it would lead to cleaner, more focused builds and maybe even reduce the overload that keeps some players from tanking or doing group content at all.

Do you have evidence of one-bar tanks (let alone necro) completing all content or are you just saying that? As I outlined previously, support roles are already limited on space and pushing us to one-bar would make build diversity worse because choice would be taken away due to the necessary skills. If these necessary skills were made unnecessary then tanking would get boring, which is a complaint people already have when trying out tanking. Tanking is not the DoT management game of DPS, I don’t think anyones getting overwhelmed by having 2 bars.

Evidence, really? You don't think a one bar tank would be able to, at the very least, just complete all vet content in the game? If not, that's a problem in and of itself. But I'm saying that based on experience having ran vet trials with a friend who plays a one bar tank.

Again, it seems like you're coming at this from a two-bar, current-state-of-things lens. Support roles feel limited? I don't get that. Healers are literally running burst heals, hots, buffs, debuffs, etc. Tanks are running buffs, debuffs, pulls, heals, shields, etc. How tf is that limited? lol

All the vet content? Not efficiently but sure. All the hardmode content? Might run into mitigation/self-heals/duration of fight problems. Either way, I doubt they’re applying all the buffs/debuffs that they should, making the fights take longer.
I’m not sure what perspective you’re wanting here then, for all 10 spots to be one one bar? Still wouldn’t have weapon diversity.

Yes, limited. Look, here’s my cro tank:
Chain
Melee taunt (major & minor breach)
Self-heal
Ultgen skill
Reduce block cost
Defensive ult

Mitigation skill
Ranged taunt
Major resolve
Sustain skill
Wall (crusher)
Offensive ult

I’m missing minor vulnerability & aoe major breach, maim, heroism, vamp drain, and who knows what else. Could I squeeze them in there? Sure. Comfortably? No.

So how would you make that all one bar and have room for a flex spot for crushing shock/race against time/etc.?

You wouldn't (and again, the entire argument here is you SHOULDN'T) have access to all of that on one build.

Your tank has melee taunt, ranged taunt, pull, heals, ultigen, reduce block skill, major resolve buff, wall for crusher debuff, sustain skill, both offense and defensive ult. Got it. And you're still talking about all of the missing buffs and debuffs you should have.

Every end-game tank looks exactly like that. Where what we could have are tanks that specialize as pull tanks, melee tanks, ranged tanks, an ultigen tank, a self-heal tank, etc. Just ideas.

The entire argument here is that players should not have all of those things at once. So what if encounters take a little longer? So what if it's not as "efficient?" ZOS can adjust the health pools of bosses, if it's that big of a deal, idk. But having all of that one one build is silly (my opinion of course) and that's the whole point of this post, in addition to the other ways I think moving to one bar could benefit the game long-term.

And why not? All of it is just in reference to tanking. I’m not DPSing, I’m not healing. I’m mitigating the damage I’m taking and the only debuffs I’m doing is removing armor from enemies which is a tank’s job as shown by the armor sets being heavy armor and it being on tank skills.

You cannot specialize, you need to adapt to the fight.

Agree that tanks need to be able to adapt to different fights. No argument there.

But the point I’m making isn’t that tanks (or any role) should suddenly lose the ability to tank or do their job effectively. It’s that the current system forces every tank to look the same because they have to cover everything at once. There’s very little room for meaningful build diversity when every fight expects the same toolkit: ranged taunt, melee taunt, sustain, all of the buffs and debuffs possible, etc.

Right now, if you're not running all of those things, you’re seen as underperforming (by your own admission), even if your build is thematically or strategically sound. That’s kind of what I'm challenging with this post.

With a one-bar system (and rebalanced encounters to match) you could have tanks that lean into different specialties without being punished for it. A tank that’s amazing at ultigen but sacrifices pull utility. A self-healing bruiser-style tank that gives up some buffs/debuffs. A pure healer. A pure buffer/debuffer. It would open the door to more interesting roles within the support role itself, instead of forcing everyone into the same all-purpose template.

I know we're not going to come to an agreement on this, or end up seeing things eye to eye lol but either way, I do appreciate the back and forth. It's been a good conversation.

The current system doesn’t force every tank to look the same, my build could be optimized better. I have a friend who has a full ultigen build that’s not so tanky but gives the group so much ult it’s incredible. I personally have a templar tank that uses jabs and beam. Making us go 1-bar would reduce our flexibility because we wouldn’t get to slot jabs and wouldn’t get to slot vamp drain because we’d need to have breach, crusher, and enough resists/healing/shielding to live, not giving any room for these fun skills.

On the healer side, we both have dual destro healers and while theirs focuses more into healing mine focuses more into buffs and dealing damage. With only one bar, this kind of build may not be able to have enough healing to function.

I appreciate that. Too often do arguments and discussions on the forums turn into insults and defensiveness. I may not agree with you, but I appreciate your maturity.

BXR_Lonestar · April 18

Also, to your point about Oakensoul, it might lessen the gap between two-bar players but the gap is still way too big. Everyone thinks one-bar players are people with disabilities running heavy attack builds when many of us came from being sweaty two-bar players and still enjoy animation canceling and the overall combat of the game, just without the constant barswapping buff/dot management and the ability to actually feel like we have a unique build instead of cramming every passive buff imaginable on our bars.

I disagree here. The perception that it is "way to big" is really not reality. I can hit ~ 85k on my 1 bar pet sorc which is PLENTY of damage to do any content in the game, including vet hardmodes. That kind of DPS is only not competitive for score runs, where people are going to want to run the sweatiest of meta builds. So unless you are a hardcore sweaty that wants to push score runs - 1 bar oakensoul DPS is just fine. And I know from experience that as an oakensoul build, you will make it look easier than meta builds at times because the build is so easy to play and is very durable.

Heck. EVERYONE I know (and this is no exageration) that has done multiple farming runs in the solo arenas uses 1 bar sorcs because this is just easy mode vs. every other build in the game, including non-1 bar builds.

The gap between Oakensoul builds and super sweaty score-pushing builds may be large, but you are looking at a statistic that quite frankly doesn't even matter 2 a huge portion of the playerbase out there. So what if 2 bar meta builds can hit for 130k+ when the only scenario where that matters is so limited and such a small portion of the playerbase actually pursues those achievements? With a 1 bar, you can finish vet content and make it look easy. That's really all that matters IMO.

If I want to score push, I'll make a dark elf or Khajit arcanist and spend the next 3 months practicing on a dummy (and hating life - and probably the game) to perfect my rotation before I get to do anything fun. But that doesn't sound like fun to me - so I just don't do it. I'm gunna guess you feel the same way about parsing, which is why we use the Oakensoul in the first place - its easy mode for some things.

It's not a perfect solution though for everything, which is why I advocate for leaving things as they are. I'd rather them focus on the real problem which is most people don't like the bar swap mechanic the way it works in this game, and I know a LOT of people hate light attack weaving.

Ph1p · April 18

QB1 wrote: »

But the point I’m making isn’t that tanks (or any role) should suddenly lose the ability to tank or do their job effectively. It’s that the current system forces every tank to look the same because they have to cover everything at once. There’s very little room for meaningful build diversity when every fight expects the same toolkit: ranged taunt, melee taunt, sustain, all of the buffs and debuffs possible, etc.

Right now, if you're not running all of those things, you’re seen as underperforming (by your own admission), even if your build is thematically or strategically sound. That’s kind of what I'm challenging with this post.

With a one-bar system (and rebalanced encounters to match) you could have tanks that lean into different specialties without being punished for it. A tank that’s amazing at ultigen but sacrifices pull utility. A self-healing bruiser-style tank that gives up some buffs/debuffs. A pure healer. A pure buffer/debuffer. It would open the door to more interesting roles within the support role itself, instead of forcing everyone into the same all-purpose template.

You're right that technically, with more limited bar space, each conscious pick of abilities becomes more important and meaningful. But a single bar is so quickly filled up with must-have skills, that players won't have the opportunity to pick anything else. My DK tank might already have to slot a taunt, a self-heal, a shield, a pull, and Igneous Weapons. There is zero space to lean into specialties now and this actually forces everyone into the kind of template you want to avoid.

Same for healers. With Combat Prayer, Healing Springs, Echoing Vigor, and maybe Radiating Regen, my bar is almost full already and I haven't even added a single class skill yet. How can this possibly improve build diversity?

Finally, since this massively cuts down the number of skills, it actually does decrease the effectiveness of support roles a lot. Two tank skills alone - Elemental Blockade and Pierce Armor - debuff about 11k enemy armor and can thus account for ~20% of the entire group's damage. Why limit tanks to such a degree that they might even have to compromise on those most basic abilities?

Finedaible · April 20

I've been asking for all abilities to count as slotted AND active for passives and effects. This whole bar swapping nonsense is un-intuitive and only makes sense for equipped set pieces. Just try explaining the concept to a newer player and brace yourself for an hour of explanation about what does or does not carry over from your bars.

QB1 · April 21

Finedaible wrote: »

I've been asking for all abilities to count as slotted AND active for passives and effects. This whole bar swapping nonsense is un-intuitive and only makes sense for equipped set pieces. Just try explaining the concept to a newer player and brace yourself for an hour of explanation about what does or does not carry over from your bars.

Finally someone gets it

Rohamad_Ali · April 21

randconfig · April 21

Would be too simple and boring to me tbh, I really enjoy the two bars, and if anything, I would love a 6th slot to be added.

itsfatbass · April 21

Id say this would make the game MORE boring, not less. One bar builds are so bland and unenjoyable to me and you're sacrificing a significant amount of power by doing so. Clearly ZoS doesn't care about power creep with the release of subclassing. I strongly disagree and in my experience, the players who only play with one bar builds lack in the skills necessary to really make it far in ESO.

Aggrovious · April 21

@QB1 There are a couple of factors in play here that I can argue make two bars needed for the game to function.

MMO genre- adds variety of skills and having as many as possible is superb. Having less abilities can hurt.
Sustain/DOTS- standards of PVE and PVP. They use the second bar for more heals or for more damage to apply to a target dummy in trial.
Cloudrest Overload Mechanic - Segregates oakensoul players from doing this trial on veteran difficulty.

At the same time...I can also bring up several points on why one bars are better.

Bar swapping can prove to be useless if you can't swap because the whole server in Cyrodiil's latest ball groups of your 9-5 crowd is on. Its very delayed and well, if your streak is on the opposite bar but you couldn't swap, then you die from the horde.

Playing on an oakensoul (or one bar) build and switching back to a two bar feels clunky. The transition doesn't feel smooth at all.

We can look at games such as Smite OR RPG's such as Shadow of War. What is great about the one bar set ups here is the combat is smooth. Your ult is R or 5 and you don't bar swap. RPG games tend to feel great because you created the build/apply abilities and the character uses X Y R2 etc. ESO has you using 12345 BS 12345. There have been plenty times were its not as receptive as it should be and the delays can throw off timing or cost your life.

One bars can provide less jank and perhaps more resources for better optimization.

QB1 · April 21

itsfatbass wrote: »

Id say this would make the game MORE boring, not less. One bar builds are so bland and unenjoyable to me and you're sacrificing a significant amount of power by doing so. Clearly ZoS doesn't care about power creep with the release of subclassing. I strongly disagree and in my experience, the players who only play with one bar builds lack in the skills necessary to really make it far in ESO.

Again that's the point, I feel builds should be sacrificing some power. I don't like that all builds can do everything, but that's my perspective. Evidently you and others enjoy that.

And yet we have another person who thinks all one bar players are those who only play one button heavy attack builds. I and many others have been playing since release. So we've played more than not with two bar setups in the past. Moved to one bar simply because buff management and just buff skill selection in general is boring, repetitive, and leads to all builds feeling the same. Not because of a perceived lack of skill