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Subclassing vs class change token

kind_hero
kind_hero
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Initially I was quite excited about subclassing. I tested it on the PTS. It was a ton of fun, like having "dev codes on". But I am also having second thoughts.

Many people have already stated their worries that such a massive change will break the game and, while it is totally fun, it will create more problems with balance than anything done before.

So, I was thinking that a couple of things would have been probably a safer bet than a skill salad.

1) Class change token. It seems adding/changing skill lines is not so hard to do.
This would have helped veteran players to revive old characters or their main. Also it could have been part of a free bundle for returning players.

2) More morphs and skills within the class, including more themed visual effects, combined with Scribing. I was expecting more from Scribing with this update. Speaking of scribing, doesn't it feel like a waste now? The potential was real.

My concerns:

In my case, having a nightblade with two skill lines from two other classes, makes things very confusing. Why are we calling them nightblades anyway? Why not call them "<insert race> hero", and mix all three skill lines freely if we are already playing with two?

Some will say that all this is optional. Sure, until it isn't, like when you want to do a harder dungeon, trial or a specific pvp mode. And I don't see where the "pure" classes have any advantages over the mixed ones. Instead, I see that iconic abilities of most classes are being nerfed to counter the exotic combinations which theorycrafters are already discovering.

So, sticking to my old class will leave me in a disadvantage. There is no clear gain/penalty for using one or two class skill lines from other classes, like in many games. For example, Elder Scrolls character creation, while not using classes, had a system where you could chose extra spell resistance, but at a cost of not being able to use a certain metal or a shield. You get the idea. There is no hint of having such cool trade-offs which can also add to a role play element or to character identity.

I am sure the devs played with this a lot before committing to this path. They might have data that leads to conclusions we can't see. But I am starting to doubt the benefit of this major change, in the way it is being implemented. People wanted to change the class or have more skills, not to put classes in a blender! Probably, more communication from the dev team is needed.

Lastly, think of the success of the Vengeance campaign. We played the most basic character templates, with far less abilities than available now, and had a ton of fun. So, I don't think the secret is having as many skills available as possible. It was a clear case of less is more.

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  • ragnarok6644b14_ESO
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    There's already a thread on this and in it, I disagree with almost everything you have said here. I think I could almost verbatim copy+paste some of my replies, lol.

    Bottom line is:
    - why are classes axiomatically a good thing? People say "because it's an MMO" and "because endgame will just trend towards a small set of builds", both of which I find unconvincing for reasons outlined in the other thread.
    - some people take the different approach and just prefer classes for theme which is fine, but in that case classes are not *axiomatically* good, but it's simply a matter of preference. In this case, I think they are welcome to play their theme build or not, just like they can now.

    Older TES games had "classes" that affected how quickly skills leveled - very similarly to how the number of skill points required to unlock additional class lines goes up.
    Edited by ragnarok6644b14_ESO on April 17, 2025 10:57AM
  • Xarc
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    I don't remember where I read that, but it seems to me that "technically" it's harder for developers to add a class change token than to add skill trees because the game is designed a certain way.
    Honestly, I don't know any more, and I don't care.
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  • tomofhyrule
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    The devs have said that way this game is set up, the Class of a character is the one immutable part of each character, buried so deep within the spaghetti code that it can't be changed. That was why they went for this instead.
  • Tandor
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    Personally I'm far happier with subclassing, it adds a whole new dimension to the game for me - whereas class change tokens are of no interest at all given that I have multiple characters across the classes already. Balancing isn't an issue to me as I don't play competitively.
  • QB1
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    I want subclassing AND class change tokens
  • Cooperharley
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    Class change tokens would be monetized where this is not technically, so I’m much more happier with this option.

    I do think it should’ve been termed multi-classing though because subclassing inherently implies that we’re getting sub-specializations for the class itself rather than adopting skills from other classes entirely.

    I also think from a role play perspective, it would’ve been interesting if they had created new terminology and class names for the different combinations. I know there’s quite a bit of combinations, but could’ve been cool!
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  • Ragnarok0130
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    Class change tokens would be monetized where this is not technically, so I’m much more happier with this option.

    This is ZoS we're talking about, they will find a way to monetize it for an added convenience down the road. What that will look like nobody knows but ZoS is extremely adept at creating a problem and selling us the solution in the crown store.

    Personally I want class change tokens and not unbalanceable subclasses. I don't care how far down in the spaghetti code the solution is, if they can swap out entire skill lines between classes they can find a way to do a class change token.
  • Wereswan
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    The devs have said that way this game is set up, the Class of a character is the one immutable part of each character, buried so deep within the spaghetti code that it can't be changed. That was why they went for this instead.

    This right here is the answer. People have been asking for class change tokens for eleven years now. ZOS knows we want them. They know they could sell them for 5,000+ crowns. If they're not doing that, it's because they would break things. Badly.
    Edited by Wereswan on April 17, 2025 4:44PM
  • loosej
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    Just a thought: if they're able to introduce subclassing like they're doing now, they could have also chosen to let you swap all three of your skill lines for the three skill lines of one different class. Basically full class change using the same technique they're applying now.
    Consistency: It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup (source: despair.com)
  • ragnarok6644b14_ESO
    ragnarok6644b14_ESO
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    loosej wrote: »
    Just a thought: if they're able to introduce subclassing like they're doing now, they could have also chosen to let you swap all three of your skill lines for the three skill lines of one different class. Basically full class change using the same technique they're applying now.

    There would be huge issues with this, because there are other things tied to classes (like what sets you can wear, how quests treat you [especially in PVP for bounties], and possibly more besides.

    A class with 3 Templar skill lines that qualifies for "kill enemy Arcanists" and is wearing the Heirophant set would be super weird.
    Edited by ragnarok6644b14_ESO on April 17, 2025 5:02PM
  • loosej
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    loosej wrote: »
    Just a thought: if they're able to introduce subclassing like they're doing now, they could have also chosen to let you swap all three of your skill lines for the three skill lines of one different class. Basically full class change using the same technique they're applying now.

    There would be huge issues with this, because there are other things tied to classes (like what sets you can wear, how quests treat you [especially in PVP for bounties], and possibly more besides.

    A class with 3 Templar skill lines that qualifies for "kill enemy Arcanists" and is wearing the Heirophant set would be super weird.

    A lot of that applies to their current approach I think, as it is now you'll kill a player who was streaking/cloaking and still qualify for "kill enemy Arcanists".

    Class sets are an issue as well right now, because you can take the skill line from another class but not use the corresponding class set. Swapping out all three skill lines would make those class sets just as unavailable as they are right now, and there's really no reason why an arcanist with three templar skill lines would be running the hierophant set.
    Consistency: It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup (source: despair.com)
  • Nic727
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    I'm really torn about this subclass system.

    On one hand, I love the flexibility it brings, but you still have the ultimate of the main class which doesn't fix the problem for us who want to change class for everything related to the class (lore, ultimate, skills).
    Edited by Nic727 on April 25, 2025 2:27AM
  • DreamyLu
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    Regarding a token to change class:
    Like I said a few times already - sorry for the repeat - I'm not fan of the concept. I would prefer the concept of a token making us level up straight from 0 to 50/160.

    Reason is that for me, the class is part of the personality of my toon. So in my case, a different class means a different toon. In my other games, I have one alt for each existing class/role I want to play. In ESO, I stick unfortunately to one toon only, because I don't want to re-go through the - for me - hassle of leveling up to 50/160.

    Regarding subclass:
    In original GW, we could mix two classes, one being main with full choice of skills available, and the secondary one being whatever we want but with a limited selection of skills. I did really love that (I can remember my powerful mesmer/elem with whom I could solo almost everything). So for me that's wait and see in ESO now.



    Edited by DreamyLu on April 25, 2025 4:06AM
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  • old_scopie1945
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    The devs have said that way this game is set up, the Class of a character is the one immutable part of each character, buried so deep within the spaghetti code that it can't be changed. That was why they went for this instead.

    That makes sense, otherwise why would ZOS turn up the opportunity to make a nice easy little earner.
  • Erickson9610
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    I imagine we'll get a Class Change Token sometime after Subclassing launches. After all, we still have to keep one skill line from our original Class, and our Class Mastery and Class Sets are still tied to our base Class. Just give it time! There's still demand for both.
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  • gc0018
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    The problem is not which is better, but whether ZOS has any resource to do it.
    Subclass is just simply a copy and paste stuff, copy the class skill into weapon skill slot and apply them the same way. The workload is even lower than class change which require some new code to achieve.

    ZOS should really get some good Devs and programmers for ESO, considering how much money is made from ESO and how much potential player out there, it is worthy at this moment (I don't know if it is worthy if U46 messed up...).
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