ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Even if it does for an update or two, that's happened with other classes before subclassing. I've had classes benched in PvP because they were simply hopeless and locked into their terrible skill lines.
Have a little vision for the benefits of a system that can be changed without the worry of disrupting class balance and put down
Do all three Sorc skill trees have to be meta on the first pass? People just can't let go of that class identity stuff. It's skill trees now.

This has nothing to do with any class identity or skill trees, this is just a matter of fact. All of Sorc's skill lines are not worth using in Subclassing, which will not only destroy a Class, but also the entire game ecosystem.
If people think today that it is okay for Sorc's entire skill line to be unused, then tomorrow when NB's skill line is nerfed to the ground, people will also think that since there is a precedent, NB's death should also be allowed. Which profession should die next? What will we be left with in the end?

Just the opposite. I see a future where weak skills can be addressed without worrying about the class power budget. A future where skills can be unique and powerful again because there's no worry about the "my class should be able to do that" nonsense. Class balance is the source of homogenization. The Sorcs crappy lightning skills don't have to be ignored anymore just because they have a few powerful skills like frags and curse and streak. The class power budget is keeping these things from happening.

Ah forget it.

Alaztor91 wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

There's so much potential for this system, it's a shame that people are clinging so tightly to the status quo. It's like they have no vision of what can happen in a classless world. Skills can be fun and unique, no class balance worries. Old skills could get their more interesting versions back. Remember when DK wings were amazing? When negates moved? When Blazing Shield could be made effective? So many changes happened because they upset class balance and everyone had the "why can't my class do that?" attitude. We can have fun skills that don't have to be on even power budgets with comparable skills in other lines.

Idk why you think something like that will happen, given the current track record that Devs have shown. Most of the skill morphs are pretty much the same stuff with a slight variation, with rare instances of actual functionality changes between them(something like Dark Flare vs Solar Barrage) and in the majority of cases with a clear winner, this is like 3 years after Hybridization which eliminated the main reason why some skills needed a similar ''Stam Morph'' and ''Mag Morph''.

You won't get DK Reflect Wings or other unique stuff back, look at what they already started doing with stuff like Radiant Destruction: ''the execute scaling is being adjusted so it doesn't outright beat other executes'' <-- straight from the Patch Notes. Unique and ''out of the power budget'' skills will either be neutered or their functionality will be changed to accommodate and remove outliers.

You seriously think they will increase the amount of unique and ''over the power budget'' skills when they have to now balance them between the interaction of all 21 Class skill lines instead of the 3 they had to do before?

The power budget is about keeping classes balanced with each other, so yes, I do expect that doesn't matter anymore.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Just the opposite. I see a future where weak skills can be addressed without worrying about the class power budget. A future where skills can be unique and powerful again because there's no worry about the "my class should be able to do that" nonsense. Class balance is the source of homogenization. The Sorcs crappy lightning skills don't have to be ignored anymore just because they have a few powerful skills like frags and curse and streak. The class power budget is keeping these things from happening.

Ah forget it.

So have you seen any news about major buffs to Storm Calling or the Dark Magic skill line in this PTS?
Considering the slow pace of ZOS updates, how many players will be lost due to poor balance before the next update?
Please note that many players are not against Subclassing altogether, what they are against is the poor balance and poor skill design.

We've only had one set of notes. I would like some changes before the end of PTS too, but if they don't happen it's not the end of anything. It's the exact same situation we've always been in where a set of skill lines might be lacking for awhile...it's not a class problem its the relative strength of one skill tree against others and hopefully without the roadblock of class vs class balance, skill lines can be looked at in isolation, outside of the class in which they exist. Being able to do that means changes can be made that are more than simple 2-3 percentage point shift as prescribed by the spreadsheet.

ForumBully wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Even if it does for an update or two, that's happened with other classes before subclassing. I've had classes benched in PvP because they were simply hopeless and locked into their terrible skill lines.
Have a little vision for the benefits of a system that can be changed without the worry of disrupting class balance and put down
Do all three Sorc skill trees have to be meta on the first pass? People just can't let go of that class identity stuff. It's skill trees now.

This has nothing to do with any class identity or skill trees, this is just a matter of fact. All of Sorc's skill lines are not worth using in Subclassing, which will not only destroy a Class, but also the entire game ecosystem.
If people think today that it is okay for Sorc's entire skill line to be unused, then tomorrow when NB's skill line is nerfed to the ground, people will also think that since there is a precedent, NB's death should also be allowed. Which profession should die next? What will we be left with in the end?

Just the opposite. I see a future where weak skills can be addressed without worrying about the class power budget. A future where skills can be unique and powerful again because there's no worry about the "my class should be able to do that" nonsense. Class balance is the source of homogenization. The Sorcs crappy lightning skills don't have to be ignored anymore just because they have a few powerful skills like frags and curse and streak. The class power budget is keeping these things from happening.

Ah forget it.

The problem with this argument is that ZOS has already indicated the exact opposite is going to occur:

As such, we’re shifting much of our focus on the balance end to look at skill lines as a modular toolkit that offers a handful of strengths and gameplay advantages, while trying to better compare them to other skill lines that focus on specific gameplay elements or roles.

Many abilities were originally designed to be “outliers”, to enable a class to stand toe to toe with others in certain aspects. These abilities are getting adjusted, now that things aren’t always as simple as say, comparing Dragonknight versus Necromancer. This patch focuses on trying to bring into line many of those abilities, while also reinforcing the core themes of a skill line. We want to reiterate this is very much a first stab at this new way to explore and exist in Tamriel. We will be looking at your feedback not only to guide adjustments during this update cycle, but future update cycles as well.

(Source)

Note the second paragraph: going forward, ZOS will be balancing individual skill lines in comparison to each other. That might be good news for lines like Storm Calling that are generally regarded as weak, but it also means the upraised nails are getting smacked with the nerf hammer.

On PVP SORC and NIGHTBLADE:


1. On the SORC changes and subclassing
- in the end what has been said about sorc needing important skills from the Daedric summoning skill line is correct it can
not be exclusively pet focused because if it is, it kills the line by saddling anyone that wants to use it with sub par skills
that take up double the bar space. secondly the only passive that interacts with pets is the final capstone passive. the
problem with the recent change is that if you do not saddle yourself with the bad double bar skill you forgo the entire
capstone passive. the simple fix is the change it so that all it needs is for you to have a Daedric summoning skill slotted
on either bar.

- Secondly the changes to the sorcerer shield gameplay was a little to heavy handed considering the massive increase in
power creep to every other class and thus every subclassed build. In order for A. subclassing to work and B. for you to
reach your goal of "play how you want" / "your belong here" non subclassed builds need to be as strong as subclassed
builds. you can not say "if your class purist build is bad? then subclass." it is not a solution that is in line with you
aforementioned mission statement. What has been said about sorc not fitting in with subclassing because of its skill
distribution is correct. and this needs to be taken into account for sorc and all other class skill lines.

2. On the Insane buffs to Nightblade
- grim focus and its appropriate morphs work on nightblade due to nightblades toolkit missing an innate delayed burst
skill, grim focus acts as a combination delayed burst + and immediate burst skill in one, explaining its high profile
damage. giving nighblades assassination skill line the ability to bow proc twice in a row means a heavy imbalance to
damage and gives no reason to pick any other burst damage tree, understandably as mentioned in the developers note:
the changes were made to compensate for the loss of damage heavy attack builds receive for not using grim focus
immediately. as an alternative fix to this issue i would recommend one of the 3 following changes:
a. lower the sacking requirement of grim focus from 5 stacks to 4 thus meaning no loss of stacks for heavy attack
builds and still buffing pvp nightblade a little without the insane double tap into delayed burst that subclassing now
provides.
b. conversely raising the stack requirement from 5 to 6 would accomplish the same as above with minimal impact to
nightblades pvp.
c. ultimately the most complicated option, leaving grim focus to be a single shot but the more stacks increase the
damage ie: 5 stacks would do about half as much damage as it is doing now on live were as 10 stacks could do 1.25
the damage of live.

- Onto the master assassin passive: currently on PTS with a proper pvp build no major savagery or prophecy buff and
utilizing the flanking and capstone passive of the assassination line you are able to build 42% crit chance with no loss to
damage due to subclassing weapon skill lines / weapon traits / gear selection. meaning a properly built pvp nightblade
build is able to consistently receive critical burst heals upwards of 13k or more on a pure nightblade build, with templar
subclassing these numbers increase to 17k and up. current recommendation is to reduce the crit bonus of flank to 5% this
allows nightblde to still play into the crit fantasy without giving it to much power creep in damage and healing potential


3. On the new PURGE meta:
- so now you can subclass templars purge / healing tree with wardens purge / damage tree for a delayed burst tool + the
best healing tools in the game AND... infinite sustain. with the combination of restoring rune, bull netch and cleansing
ritual sustain is no longer an issue AND dot damage as well as any other delayed damage / debuff that is placed on you
is completely removed. this effectively ends dots as a viable way to play pvp and makes these 2 subclass skill lines feel
mandatory for any kind of experienced pvp. add the aforementioned nightblade assassination skill line to the mix and
you have yourself one of the 3 - 4 mandatory meta builds that will inevitably crop up and end build diversity in mid to end
game pvp. the recommended solution is to place a cooldown debuff on the player character preventing cleansing ritual
from cleansing anything more than once every 15 seconds. this allows dot builds and sticky damage / debuffs play styles
to have a place in pvp without being to onerous on templar players. This will also have little to no impact on pve.

Wereswan wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Even if it does for an update or two, that's happened with other classes before subclassing. I've had classes benched in PvP because they were simply hopeless and locked into their terrible skill lines.
Have a little vision for the benefits of a system that can be changed without the worry of disrupting class balance and put down
Do all three Sorc skill trees have to be meta on the first pass? People just can't let go of that class identity stuff. It's skill trees now.

This has nothing to do with any class identity or skill trees, this is just a matter of fact. All of Sorc's skill lines are not worth using in Subclassing, which will not only destroy a Class, but also the entire game ecosystem.
If people think today that it is okay for Sorc's entire skill line to be unused, then tomorrow when NB's skill line is nerfed to the ground, people will also think that since there is a precedent, NB's death should also be allowed. Which profession should die next? What will we be left with in the end?

Just the opposite. I see a future where weak skills can be addressed without worrying about the class power budget. A future where skills can be unique and powerful again because there's no worry about the "my class should be able to do that" nonsense. Class balance is the source of homogenization. The Sorcs crappy lightning skills don't have to be ignored anymore just because they have a few powerful skills like frags and curse and streak. The class power budget is keeping these things from happening.

Ah forget it.

The problem with this argument is that ZOS has already indicated the exact opposite is going to occur:

As such, we’re shifting much of our focus on the balance end to look at skill lines as a modular toolkit that offers a handful of strengths and gameplay advantages, while trying to better compare them to other skill lines that focus on specific gameplay elements or roles.

Many abilities were originally designed to be “outliers”, to enable a class to stand toe to toe with others in certain aspects. These abilities are getting adjusted, now that things aren’t always as simple as say, comparing Dragonknight versus Necromancer. This patch focuses on trying to bring into line many of those abilities, while also reinforcing the core themes of a skill line. We want to reiterate this is very much a first stab at this new way to explore and exist in Tamriel. We will be looking at your feedback not only to guide adjustments during this update cycle, but future update cycles as well.

(Source)

Note the second paragraph: going forward, ZOS will be balancing individual skill lines in comparison to each other. That might be good news for lines like Storm Calling that are generally regarded as weak, but it also means the upraised nails are getting smacked with the nerf hammer.

That's not the opposite. It's exactly what I'm saying. Class lines judged relative to each other rather than classes.
Look, there's nothing I can do for naysayers. It's happening. If you end up having a favorite line you can't use, then don't use it. That's what I've had to do with whole classes since the game launched. If the class sucks for a couple of updates, I played something else or took a break

ForumBully wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

There's so much potential for this system, it's a shame that people are clinging so tightly to the status quo. It's like they have no vision of what can happen in a classless world. Skills can be fun and unique, no class balance worries. Old skills could get their more interesting versions back. Remember when DK wings were amazing? When negates moved? When Blazing Shield could be made effective? So many changes happened because they upset class balance and everyone had the "why can't my class do that?" attitude. We can have fun skills that don't have to be on even power budgets with comparable skills in other lines.

Sorc legit will not be used in its current state. It's just categorically worse across the board.

And yet Sorc skill lines will be. There don't have to be full Sorcs. I'm not going to judge a system where I can pick and choose class trees from anywhere based on what happens if I insist on using the three I'm used to

It'll be used in PVP, but I don't see how any of the lines see action in PVE.

Yeah but none of them will be used in pvp

No one's going to use storm calling with Crit Surge, Hurricane and Streak? ....okay, let's see how that pans out

It’s a mediocre tree which offers nothing but a little bit of extra mobility through streak, common buffs and mid passives. So, yes, there is indeed no reason to pick it over high damage/sustain/purge skill lines with better passives

Some will use it of course. But only those who knowingly or not choose to sacrifice raw power in return for a bit different gameplay or flavour.

From the patch notes regarding Templar's beam:
*the execute scaling is being adjusted so it doesn't outright beat other executes*

Sorry but this is balancing by a spreadsheet again. Radiant *has to* beat impale to account for the difference in passives between Assassination and Dawn' Wrath, otherwise there's no reason for anyone not swap Dawn's Wrath for Assassination. At the moment if you passively slot relentless focus you get 600*1.26 (minimum, assuming 0 medium armor pieces) SP, 10% Crit damage, 8.5% Crit rate, another 8.8% Crit rate if you're flanking. This is compared with just 10%SP (normally around 400, so about half what you get from Asassination), and 5% damage done with class abilities if you buff with solar (less than half what you get from passively slotting relentless). So Radiant Destruction has to actually beat impale in terms of execute in order to make up for this.

Ecgberht_confused wrote: »

From the patch notes regarding Templar's beam:
*the execute scaling is being adjusted so it doesn't outright beat other executes*

Sorry but this is balancing by a spreadsheet again. Radiant *has to* beat impale to account for the difference in passives between Assassination and Dawn' Wrath, otherwise there's no reason for anyone not swap Dawn's Wrath for Assassination. At the moment if you passively slot relentless focus you get 600*1.26 (minimum, assuming 0 medium armor pieces) SP, 10% Crit damage, 8.5% Crit rate, another 8.8% Crit rate if you're flanking. This is compared with just 10%SP (normally around 400, so about half what you get from Asassination), and 5% damage done with class abilities if you buff with solar (less than half what you get from passively slotting relentless). So Radiant Destruction has to actually beat impale in terms of execute in order to make up for this.

Assassination is the most ridiculous skill line in the game because ZoS thinks nuking people from stealth is "high risk/reward" gameplay.
I agree that every skill line, at least in PvP, pales in comparison to Assassination. Now you get far more than than Clever Alchemist level damage just for having Grim Focus on your bar, before even thinking about using the hardest hitting single-target skill in the game....and you can hit it TWICE NOW, back to back.
If Assassination is going to stay like this, at a minimum every other offensive class skill needs some love to even warrant a second look when Subclassing.

madmufffin wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

There's so much potential for this system, it's a shame that people are clinging so tightly to the status quo. It's like they have no vision of what can happen in a classless world. Skills can be fun and unique, no class balance worries. Old skills could get their more interesting versions back. Remember when DK wings were amazing? When negates moved? When Blazing Shield could be made effective? So many changes happened because they upset class balance and everyone had the "why can't my class do that?" attitude. We can have fun skills that don't have to be on even power budgets with comparable skills in other lines.

Sorc legit will not be used in its current state. It's just categorically worse across the board.

And yet Sorc skill lines will be. There don't have to be full Sorcs. I'm not going to judge a system where I can pick and choose class trees from anywhere based on what happens if I insist on using the three I'm used to

It'll be used in PVP, but I don't see how any of the lines see action in PVE.

Yeah but none of them will be used in pvp

I don't see a world where streak isn't in pvp

Well, it’s already on pts. I mean you will still see it but it’s only going to be used by coping former sorc mains and maybe some of the players who have been crying on forum about it being op all these years.

Double cast spec bow (Grim Focus) does not belong in PvP. It's either a free extra try at a two shot nuke for a player who got countered and doesn't deserve it, or another cheese path to a two shot by landing both. Please adjust.

Rushing Agony still has not been adjusted. It continues to randomly turn battlefields upside down, just by pressing 2 buttons into spam, then trying again 8 seconds later until you get a lucky explosion on a noob.

Both the double spec bow and the RoA automation proc are far more powerful and broken than anything Subclassing is doing in PvP. It won't matter whether it's a NB or some NB derivative that's cheesing this busted garbage.

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

There's so much potential for this system, it's a shame that people are clinging so tightly to the status quo. It's like they have no vision of what can happen in a classless world. Skills can be fun and unique, no class balance worries. Old skills could get their more interesting versions back. Remember when DK wings were amazing? When negates moved? When Blazing Shield could be made effective? So many changes happened because they upset class balance and everyone had the "why can't my class do that?" attitude. We can have fun skills that don't have to be on even power budgets with comparable skills in other lines.

Sorc legit will not be used in its current state. It's just categorically worse across the board.

And yet Sorc skill lines will be. There don't have to be full Sorcs. I'm not going to judge a system where I can pick and choose class trees from anywhere based on what happens if I insist on using the three I'm used to

It'll be used in PVP, but I don't see how any of the lines see action in PVE.

Yeah but none of them will be used in pvp

No one's going to use storm calling with Crit Surge, Hurricane and Streak? ....okay, let's see how that pans out

It’s a mediocre tree which offers nothing but a little bit of extra mobility through streak, common buffs and mid passives. So, yes, there is indeed no reason to pick it over high damage/sustain/purge skill lines with better passives

Some will use it of course. But only those who knowingly or not choose to sacrifice raw power in return for a bit different gameplay or flavour.

Wow this take doesn't understand Storm Calling at all.

The passives are excellent for PvP. 3 of the passives are raw damage, one of them provides great recovery.

Every other class would kill to have Overload on their class. The other classes would do even worse for the chance to have Streak, one of the best abilities in PvP.

Not to mention, it's the only line in the game where you can pick up your Armor Buff AND Weapon Damage Buff, and both Hurricane/Lightning Form and Crit Surge are excellent abilities in PvP.

A Necro dropping Bone Tyrant for Storm Calling gets more damage, better sustain, a better weapon damage buff, and more mobility (in addition to an actual stun) in exchange for essentially nothing more than a couple lines of health which can be offset easily.

ForumBully wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

There's so much potential for this system, it's a shame that people are clinging so tightly to the status quo. It's like they have no vision of what can happen in a classless world. Skills can be fun and unique, no class balance worries. Old skills could get their more interesting versions back. Remember when DK wings were amazing? When negates moved? When Blazing Shield could be made effective? So many changes happened because they upset class balance and everyone had the "why can't my class do that?" attitude. We can have fun skills that don't have to be on even power budgets with comparable skills in other lines.

Sorc legit will not be used in its current state. It's just categorically worse across the board.

And yet Sorc skill lines will be. There don't have to be full Sorcs. I'm not going to judge a system where I can pick and choose class trees from anywhere based on what happens if I insist on using the three I'm used to

It'll be used in PVP, but I don't see how any of the lines see action in PVE.

Yeah but none of them will be used in pvp

No one's going to use storm calling with Crit Surge, Hurricane and Streak? ....okay, let's see how that pans out

I would have to agree with this person for me at least. If these changes go live, I've already bought crowns to bring my arc and temp over to my faction because without haunting curse, hardened ward, and bound aegis, my sorc build is pretty much useless. The only other sorc damage skill I use in my pvp builds are frags. Crit surge and streak are back bar skills and not really worth it if I don't have haunting curse or a better heal since dark conversion can still be bashed. So if I get rid of that skill line to replace it with something else, I'd better off just using a different class all together.

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

There's so much potential for this system, it's a shame that people are clinging so tightly to the status quo. It's like they have no vision of what can happen in a classless world. Skills can be fun and unique, no class balance worries. Old skills could get their more interesting versions back. Remember when DK wings were amazing? When negates moved? When Blazing Shield could be made effective? So many changes happened because they upset class balance and everyone had the "why can't my class do that?" attitude. We can have fun skills that don't have to be on even power budgets with comparable skills in other lines.

Sorc legit will not be used in its current state. It's just categorically worse across the board.

And yet Sorc skill lines will be. There don't have to be full Sorcs. I'm not going to judge a system where I can pick and choose class trees from anywhere based on what happens if I insist on using the three I'm used to

It'll be used in PVP, but I don't see how any of the lines see action in PVE.

Yeah but none of them will be used in pvp

No one's going to use storm calling with Crit Surge, Hurricane and Streak? ....okay, let's see how that pans out

It’s a mediocre tree which offers nothing but a little bit of extra mobility through streak, common buffs and mid passives. So, yes, there is indeed no reason to pick it over high damage/sustain/purge skill lines with better passives

Some will use it of course. But only those who knowingly or not choose to sacrifice raw power in return for a bit different gameplay or flavour.

Wow this take doesn't understand Storm Calling at all.

The passives are excellent for PvP. 3 of the passives are raw damage, one of them provides great recovery.

Every other class would kill to have Overload on their class. The other classes would do even worse for the chance to have Streak, one of the best abilities in PvP.

Not to mention, it's the only line in the game where you can pick up your Armor Buff AND Weapon Damage Buff, and both Hurricane/Lightning Form and Crit Surge are excellent abilities in PvP.

A Necro dropping Bone Tyrant for Storm Calling gets more damage, better sustain, and more mobility (in addition to an actual stun) in exchange for essentially nothing more than a couple lines of health which can be offset easily.

You can literally log in to pts and see that “every other class that would kill for overload” is nowhere to be found. Those “everyone” don’t exist in this reality, sir. It’s akin to saying the sky isn’t blue.

You are free to use it yourself naturally. But no matter your opinion the fact remains that it is not used nor it will be by anyone else.

PTS doesn't really have open world PvP or Battlegrounds. If you honestly think Storm Calling won't be common in those environments I have no clue what to tell you

Alondil wrote: »

On PVP SORC and NIGHTBLADE:





3. On the new PURGE meta:
- so now you can subclass templars purge / healing tree with wardens purge / damage tree for a delayed burst tool + the
best healing tools in the game AND... infinite sustain. with the combination of restoring rune, bull netch and cleansing
ritual sustain is no longer an issue AND dot damage as well as any other delayed damage / debuff that is placed on you
is completely removed. this effectively ends dots as a viable way to play pvp and makes these 2 subclass skill lines feel
mandatory for any kind of experienced pvp. add the aforementioned nightblade assassination skill line to the mix and
you have yourself one of the 3 - 4 mandatory meta builds that will inevitably crop up and end build diversity in mid to end
game pvp. the recommended solution is to place a cooldown debuff on the player character preventing cleansing ritual
from cleansing anything more than once every 15 seconds. this allows dot builds and sticky damage / debuffs play styles
to have a place in pvp without being to onerous on templar players. This will also have little to no impact on pve.

Im friends with a lot of templars, and will be using plar skill lines going forwards with subclassing. I really don't think nerfing templars purge will solve anything besides make the pureclass worse. They synergy can may be abused but highly unlikely, it does what it does for a reason.

In just a 1v1 scenario, me on most classes, i prefer to have 1 or even 2 dots. When a templar purges those dots, its annoying but all i have to do is recast it. My 2 dots are still cheaper in resources then their 1 or 2 cast of Extended ritual. Remind you, this is a 1v1, I have zero issue putting dots on a plar with purge. Elemental susceptibility usually does a very good job of filling up that 5 negative effect zone that Extended Ritual purges. Now imagine in PvP when you have way more than just 1 or 2 dots.

Additionally, when you compare sustain, what you really should complain about is Nightblade and Siphoning Strikes. You dont even need netch or templar rune, it will single handedly carry sustain on any builds. So here we are talking about other class skill lines, which debunks the statement "you have yourself one of the 3 - 4 mandatory meta builds that will inevitably crop up and end build diversity for mid to end game pvp." Each class has atleast one skill line that is absolutely great for pvp.

End game pvp consist of getting a group together and spam AOE burst ults, and run around till you get your ult again. Other than that its gankers, and small scalers who both choose their fights wisely, most of them are afraid to be clipped and shipped and memed on discord servers.

All in all, my main gripe is that templar purge DOES NOT need a 15 sec cooldown on their purge, it would make the skill 100% useless for solo/small scaled builds. It will only be used in ball groups where people can stack the HoT and spam the synergy.

Judging the build diversity on week 1 is a harsh take. Between just the few people I'm on pts with, we all have different approaches. And all are hitting insane numbers with different builds. Just have a little bit of hope.