The Weaponization of The Report System Needs To Stop

NoSoup · April 15

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Some more interesting info: this past Whitestrake's event someone tbagged me for like 60sec straight as they also whispered me telling me basically how pathetic I was. I didn't say anything (didn't tell them to stop), and I reported them because I was curious from all the tbag discourse over the past few years. Support responded saying there was no breach of TOS.

Yeah this is probably my only gripe with CS, the inconsistency. I've reported players for whispering me really derogortory comments and received a response saying "no breach of TOS", yet had an account actioned for having "Pp" in the name.

Major_Toughness · April 15

I don't tea-bag, my character is female and has no tea bags.
The policy is incredibly sexist.

Desiato · April 15

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

ah, yes, it is the victim's fault, and not the person trying to provoke them. In fact, I think everyone should try to provoke each other all the time, and we should jail people who actually respond to the provocation.

After all, provocation is harmless.

It is not my fault if someone gives me the middle finger, but it is my fault if I allow it to affect me.

Attorneyatlawl · April 16

As a returning player, now I'm kind of scared to talk in chats at all (and I'm usually very chatty) or sneak when guarding an enemy corpse...

.

PapaTankers · April 16

Its sìmply a t-bag. Its really not that deep. It has been part of a videogame culture ever since one could croush at multiplayer games.
If one does really take so deep offense to something like this, maybe its time to move to singleplayer games.

Orbital78 · April 16

Estin wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

A guildmate said they got a suspension for "racism" for saying "womp womp" aka sad trombone. I told him to appeal it, as it was obviously not racist unless he failed to mention other remarks.

Appealing for words/phrases usually doesn't work with CS. CS will look up a word or phrase and see if it's linked to anything vulgar or offensive and action you on that alone, even if it's a totally outlier incident which your guildmate's phrase is.

If you watch PvP streams, you probably heard of someone getting banned through weaponized reports for a completely inoffensive phrase relating to cows. CS looked up the second part of the word, found 1 urban dictionary result that was vulgar when the rest of the definitions weren't, and banned and denied appeals based on that single definition alone.

It really makes me worried to say anything in game chat because you don't know if anything innocent you say is linked to something vulgar or offensive. CS can't just decide whatever you say is in the same extremes of some obscure use of a word or phrase.

It kind of sounded like he didn't care enough to deal with customer support and was playing another game.

WaywardArgonian · April 16

I've talked about this a lot in the past and with many people.

To me, the core issue has always been the policy of letting everything depend on context. In theory, this is the most fair way of assessing whether there was any bad intent or wrongdoing. But in practice, this puts a lot of workload on the support staff as they are going to have to play detective and make some sort of moral judgement based on one side of the story.

That latter part is very relevant, because what could end up happening is that Person A teabags Person B all night, and then Person B finally does it back, gets clipped and reported. There is the matter of 'you have to tell them to stop first', but from what I've seen, whether or not this is factored in to a decision is mostly arbitrary. Perhaps Person A knows that Person B has blocked them, so they can make an additional clip of them trying and failing to send them the warning. Situations like this do actually occur. I know of people who have gotten the 'please stop teabagging me' request in their whispers without having done anything. So in other words, an attempt to bait someone so they can report them.

This is the issue with the policy of 'context matters': the way you present that context is manipulable. Context also adds a whole lot of extra work for a support agent, who then has to make a judgement call. If you've ever worked in customer service, you'll know there is often a discrepancy between policies thought up by management and the way they are(n't) executed by the agents themselves. The more complex the policy, the higher the chance that you'll get inconsistent results. This is what I suspect to be a big reason behind why the application of the rules seems almost random at times.

I think it would save everyone a lot of headache if ZOS/Bethesda just stuck to a clear policy of 'this is allowed, and that is not allowed'. That way it's clear to everyone when they are putting their account at risk, because it's often not now.

As for players, I would just suggest to not engage with bad actors in any way. Don't do something or send something that may be fully justified within its context, but could land you in trouble when put in a different context by someone whose sole intent is to get your account suspended.

loosej · April 16

Desiato wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

ah, yes, it is the victim's fault, and not the person trying to provoke them. In fact, I think everyone should try to provoke each other all the time, and we should jail people who actually respond to the provocation.

After all, provocation is harmless.

It is not my fault if someone gives me the middle finger, but it is my fault if I allow it to affect me.

Couldn't agree more. Now I'm imagining this scenario:

- Officer, I'd like to report a crime.
- Sure, have a seat and tell me what happened.
- Earlier today I went for a walk, and along the way some random person gave me the middle finger.
- Okay, and what happened next?
- I came straight to you to report it.
- ...

Jierdanit · April 16

NoSoup wrote: »

I think this has been an issue long enough to know by now to just not tea bag. Sure, there's a big chunk of the community that thinks "Its fine to teabag until they tell me to stop" but this way of thinking is inevitably only going to lead you to an eventual suspension.

Simple response is to just not tea bag. We were actually discussing this in guild just a few weeks ago and the consensus was you no longer need to wait for a "please stop" to risk getting punished and the whole actioon should just be avoided.

The problem is that neither of the people mentioned in the OP did actually teabag or didn't get banned for teabagging, but some "reason" that makes no sense at all.

One got banned for I believe jumping on a body which was reported as teabagging even tho it isn't.

The other one got banned for "Naming and Shaming", because he talked about teabagging.

That ban is particularly ridiculous because he didn't actually talk about or "shame" any people in particular in the message that was reported and then got banned for that and something completely unrelated that he said to me in whispers (just FYI I was not the one who reported him).

I have no idea why whispers between people would ever be taken into account for bans unless the person they are whispering is the one reporting them in the first place.

They also most likely both got reported by the same person and banned for completely ridiculous reasons.

frogthroat · April 16

loosej wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

ah, yes, it is the victim's fault, and not the person trying to provoke them. In fact, I think everyone should try to provoke each other all the time, and we should jail people who actually respond to the provocation.

After all, provocation is harmless.

It is not my fault if someone gives me the middle finger, but it is my fault if I allow it to affect me.

Couldn't agree more. Now I'm imagining this scenario:

- Officer, I'd like to report a crime.
- Sure, have a seat and tell me what happened.
- Earlier today I went for a walk, and along the way some random person gave me the middle finger.
- Okay, and what happened next?
- I came straight to you to report it.
- ...

That is actually close to how it works (at least should) both in real life and in ESO.

- Officer, I'd like to report a crime.
- Sure, have a seat and tell me what happened.
- Earlier today I went for a walk, and along the way some random person gave me the middle finger.
- Okay, and what happened next?
- I asked them to leave me alone.
- Did they?
- No, they kept following me despite me asking to be left alone.
- Ok, that counts as harassment and there are laws against this kind of behaviour

DigiAngel · April 16

I too, am afraid to comment on this.

Diminish · April 16

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

There is a tiny difference between players and players who stream content.
Streamers are kind of "advertising" the game.

This mentality is so wrong it's laughable. Unless ZOS is paying streamers directly then said streamer is just another player. Anyone can stream ESO. If I want to fire up ESO, and go live, I'd expect the same treatment as everyone else. If you think streamers should be held to different standards then if anything they should get away with more. If it weren't for a few prominent streamers, ESO would have a net average of about 50 viewers

Let's not beat around the bush here... people are soft now days. The problem isn't the trash talking, t-bagging, etc... the problem is the people on the receiving end, and the over dramatic banning system. The social aspect of this game is a dumpster fire 🔥 People simply don't talk anymore because of the dumbest things people have been getting banned for; many being 0 strike account perma bans.

At times I feel like I'm playing the pre-school version of ESO. It's not hard to ignore/avoid people doing actions you aren't in agreeance with. People are triggered by the dumbest #*@# (censored, don't want to hurt anyones feelings now) now days.

Major_Toughness · April 16

frogthroat wrote: »

loosej wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

ah, yes, it is the victim's fault, and not the person trying to provoke them. In fact, I think everyone should try to provoke each other all the time, and we should jail people who actually respond to the provocation.

After all, provocation is harmless.

It is not my fault if someone gives me the middle finger, but it is my fault if I allow it to affect me.

Couldn't agree more. Now I'm imagining this scenario:

- Officer, I'd like to report a crime.
- Sure, have a seat and tell me what happened.
- Earlier today I went for a walk, and along the way some random person gave me the middle finger.
- Okay, and what happened next?
- I came straight to you to report it.
- ...

That is actually close to how it works (at least should) both in real life and in ESO.

- Officer, I'd like to report a crime.
- Sure, have a seat and tell me what happened.
- Earlier today I went for a walk, and along the way some random person gave me the middle finger.
- Okay, and what happened next?
- I asked them to leave me alone.
- Did they?
- No, they kept following me despite me asking to be left alone.
- Ok, that counts as harassment and there are laws against this kind of behaviour

Except instead of going for a walk you are willfully participating in an event against that person.
For example, a football game. Every now and then, they swear at you.

You are going to the police?

Vonnegut2506 · April 16

Major_Toughness wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

loosej wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

ah, yes, it is the victim's fault, and not the person trying to provoke them. In fact, I think everyone should try to provoke each other all the time, and we should jail people who actually respond to the provocation.

After all, provocation is harmless.

It is not my fault if someone gives me the middle finger, but it is my fault if I allow it to affect me.

Couldn't agree more. Now I'm imagining this scenario:

- Officer, I'd like to report a crime.
- Sure, have a seat and tell me what happened.
- Earlier today I went for a walk, and along the way some random person gave me the middle finger.
- Okay, and what happened next?
- I came straight to you to report it.
- ...

That is actually close to how it works (at least should) both in real life and in ESO.

- Officer, I'd like to report a crime.
- Sure, have a seat and tell me what happened.
- Earlier today I went for a walk, and along the way some random person gave me the middle finger.
- Okay, and what happened next?
- I asked them to leave me alone.
- Did they?
- No, they kept following me despite me asking to be left alone.
- Ok, that counts as harassment and there are laws against this kind of behaviour

Except instead of going for a walk you are willfully participating in an event against that person.
For example, a football game. Every now and then, they swear at you.

You are going to the police?

No, they are going to get two 15 yard unsportsmanlike penalties from the officials and then be suspended for the rest of the game. There are rules against taunting even in competitive sporting events.

Decimus · April 16

I think some people posting here forgot to read the original post.

This isn't about whether tbagging/"sexual harassment" is ok or not, it's about people (including ones who do plenty of it themselves) making false claims of it, reporting people for something like jumping on or even running over their corpse and getting them banned despite no actual "tbagging" happening, or people taking things said in guild chat and fabricating some report out of someone simply stating ZOS's official policy on tbagging... all in order to remove people from the game who give them a hard time in PvP.

Crimsonorion · April 17

Read the OP and the report system is always abused in MMO's because most of the people handling the reports are just underpaid interns or in some cases an outside company. Like I think SWTOR's report system is handled by some third party company with a print out of the TOS.

What's hilarious to me is how ZOS will ban someone for t-bagging or a random report, but the starting zones are a cesspool of political, sexual and [usually late at night] racist Zone chats

ZOS_CouchTato · April 17

Hello everyone, I would just like to send out a reminder that the rules of this community include being respectful to one another, even if you disagree. Please keep the conversation civil moving forward.

RealLoveBVB · April 17

Diminish wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

There is a tiny difference between players and players who stream content.
Streamers are kind of "advertising" the game.

This mentality is so wrong it's laughable. Unless ZOS is paying streamers directly then said streamer is just another player. Anyone can stream ESO. If I want to fire up ESO, and go live, I'd expect the same treatment as everyone else. If you think streamers should be held to different standards then if anything they should get away with more. If it weren't for a few prominent streamers, ESO would have a net average of about 50 viewers

How is this wrong? I gave an example and can give you even another one:

When I am interested in a game and the trailer didn't convinced me on the first sight, I am going to check the reviews, often even just the negative ones, just to check if I am okay what's wrong in the game. For example if every 2nd negative review is "too many cheaters", then I take my hands off the game. But when it's just about "support is too slow or sometimes there are lags", then it's something I can work with.
But at the very end before I spend 60 bucks (or nowadays even more) I check out some streams to get to see some live gameplay.
And there we are at my initial example again. Seeing players being insultive or childish to each other, where you would feel like in a kindergarden, then it would be a reason to take my hands off again.
A streamer doesn't have to be payed, but as soon as you go live with a game, you automatically advertise it.

So a streamer who acts bad, is seen as a bad advertising for the company, so a harsher punishment sounds logic for me, as they possibly prevent game purchases.

LPapirius · April 17

PapaTankers wrote: »

Its sìmply a t-bag. Its really not that deep. It has been part of a videogame culture ever since one could croush at multiplayer games.
If one does really take so deep offense to something like this, maybe its time to move to singleplayer games.

Or maybe it's time to grow up and learn to be respectful of others.

LPapirius · April 17

Decimus wrote: »

I think some people posting here forgot to read the original post.

This isn't about whether tbagging/"sexual harassment" is ok or not, it's about people (including ones who do plenty of it themselves) making false claims of it, reporting people for something like jumping on or even running over their corpse and getting them banned despite no actual "tbagging" happening, or people taking things said in guild chat and fabricating some report out of someone simply stating ZOS's official policy on tbagging... all in order to remove people from the game who give them a hard time in PvP.

ZOS does not take action against players without proof, and even then the action taken is very selective and somewhat random it seems. If the reporting player doesn't provide video evidence than ZOS will never take action. (not speaking to whatever AI system they put in place that DOES, or at least has in the past, taken automated action against players for apparently no sensible reason what ever) But as far as player generated reports, ZOS will not take action without video evidence, and even then they aren't likely to take action.

HatchetHaro · April 17

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

So a streamer who acts bad, is seen as a bad advertising for the company, so a harsher punishment sounds logic for me, as they possibly prevent game purchases.

Your final sentence is implying that a streamer's negative feedback of the game off of the game's platform would warrant a permanent ban from the game. After all, criticism is bad for game sales.

That is some straight-up dystopian stuff that I can only imagine Day of Dragons pulling off, and Steam, Epic Games, Sony, and Microsoft will have a heck of a time with that news once that event gets even a tiny bit of negative press about it.

That's where your entire argument falls flat.

Decimus · April 17

LPapirius wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

I think some people posting here forgot to read the original post.

This isn't about whether tbagging/"sexual harassment" is ok or not, it's about people (including ones who do plenty of it themselves) making false claims of it, reporting people for something like jumping on or even running over their corpse and getting them banned despite no actual "tbagging" happening, or people taking things said in guild chat and fabricating some report out of someone simply stating ZOS's official policy on tbagging... all in order to remove people from the game who give them a hard time in PvP.

ZOS does not take action against players without proof, and even then the action taken is very selective and somewhat random it seems. If the reporting player doesn't provide video evidence than ZOS will never take action. (not speaking to whatever AI system they put in place that DOES, or at least has in the past, taken automated action against players for apparently no sensible reason what ever) But as far as player generated reports, ZOS will not take action without video evidence, and even then they aren't likely to take action.

They absolutely do though since this happened literally just a few days ago as mentioned on the original post.

A streamer was permanently banned for "tbagging" a player who is notorious for spamming reports on half the player base any time he dies in PvP... and the streamer received a ban the very next day.

Unfortunately for the player who was making these false reports, the whole incident was streamed Live and everyone who took the time to actually look at the evidence could see that no tbagging happened - the ban was appealed and revoked the day after.

The problem is that this keeps happening, over and over... and there's still people who are banned right now despite not doing anything against the Terms of Service as a result of these kinds of lies and weaponized reports.

sarahthes · April 17

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Diminish wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

There is a tiny difference between players and players who stream content.
Streamers are kind of "advertising" the game.

This mentality is so wrong it's laughable. Unless ZOS is paying streamers directly then said streamer is just another player. Anyone can stream ESO. If I want to fire up ESO, and go live, I'd expect the same treatment as everyone else. If you think streamers should be held to different standards then if anything they should get away with more. If it weren't for a few prominent streamers, ESO would have a net average of about 50 viewers

How is this wrong? I gave an example and can give you even another one:

When I am interested in a game and the trailer didn't convinced me on the first sight, I am going to check the reviews, often even just the negative ones, just to check if I am okay what's wrong in the game. For example if every 2nd negative review is "too many cheaters", then I take my hands off the game. But when it's just about "support is too slow or sometimes there are lags", then it's something I can work with.
But at the very end before I spend 60 bucks (or nowadays even more) I check out some streams to get to see some live gameplay.
And there we are at my initial example again. Seeing players being insultive or childish to each other, where you would feel like in a kindergarden, then it would be a reason to take my hands off again.
A streamer doesn't have to be payed, but as soon as you go live with a game, you automatically advertise it.

So a streamer who acts bad, is seen as a bad advertising for the company, so a harsher punishment sounds logic for me, as they possibly prevent game purchases.

The majority of ESO streamers are not stream team members and thus have zero agreements with ZOS. They also typically aren't monetized at all. They're streaming for their own reasons.

RealLoveBVB · April 18

sarahthes wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Diminish wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

There is a tiny difference between players and players who stream content.
Streamers are kind of "advertising" the game.

This mentality is so wrong it's laughable. Unless ZOS is paying streamers directly then said streamer is just another player. Anyone can stream ESO. If I want to fire up ESO, and go live, I'd expect the same treatment as everyone else. If you think streamers should be held to different standards then if anything they should get away with more. If it weren't for a few prominent streamers, ESO would have a net average of about 50 viewers

How is this wrong? I gave an example and can give you even another one:

When I am interested in a game and the trailer didn't convinced me on the first sight, I am going to check the reviews, often even just the negative ones, just to check if I am okay what's wrong in the game. For example if every 2nd negative review is "too many cheaters", then I take my hands off the game. But when it's just about "support is too slow or sometimes there are lags", then it's something I can work with.
But at the very end before I spend 60 bucks (or nowadays even more) I check out some streams to get to see some live gameplay.
And there we are at my initial example again. Seeing players being insultive or childish to each other, where you would feel like in a kindergarden, then it would be a reason to take my hands off again.
A streamer doesn't have to be payed, but as soon as you go live with a game, you automatically advertise it.

So a streamer who acts bad, is seen as a bad advertising for the company, so a harsher punishment sounds logic for me, as they possibly prevent game purchases.

The majority of ESO streamers are not stream team members and thus have zero agreements with ZOS. They also typically aren't monetized at all. They're streaming for their own reasons.

Exactly! Where did I say something different?

Decimus · May 3

Yesterday yet another streamer (this time a stream team member) received a 72 hour suspension for "tbagging/harssment", despite never having been asked to stop tbagging.

How is it that people who are following what is the official policy described here on the forums are receiving bans? And people who never even tbagged in the first place?

It's not really good for the game that paying customers and streamers who promote the game are receiving weaponized bans despite adhering to what is the official stance posted here on the forums:

Teabagging in-game is generally not a direct violation of ToS. However, when an impacted player asks you to stop and you refuse, that is when we have crossed into targeted harassment territory. If this happens and the impacted player reports the incident with video proof, then an investigation will open for ToS violations for targeted harassment. This can lead to possible suspension or permanent ban. So please take requests to stop seriously.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8286782/#Comment_8286782

So how come are people not only being investigated, but also actioned when there is no proof of them being asked to stop tbagging? In the case of streamers, literally everything is recorded and you can often see the incidents on VOD and that no one asked the streamer to stop, or that tbagging didn't even happen in many cases.

@ZOS_Kevin would it be possible to get a follow up on what you wrote a couple of months ago here on the forums?

It's not good that people are being actioned when they're doing everything according to what was written.

AngryNecro · May 3

Oh, I missed that topic.
I lost two accounts for perm with a total value of about 2 thousand bucks.
And yes, I admit, I often swore at the players destroying BG. But let's do the math. For me, the game was ruined by players who are not interested in the game mode in which I play and who parasitize it (just go in for rewards), ruined my nerves, ruined my account and eventually stole my account. And the person who is really to blame for this, who spoils one of the game modes and the nerves of other players, is exposed as a victim. As for me, there's clearly something wrong here.
Plus, even here, no one raises the question that this is actually a commercial product that we all paid for, and it's strange to me that banned players (even for three days) don't remember it. Is everyone really ready for your smartphone or laptop to be blocked if you send a "bad" email according to the manufacturer?
I don't believe that anyone who complained about me suffered as much as I did.

Look at what a beautiful and atmospheric house they took away from me. now I can only visit it through house tours.

|H1:housing:32:@johnJrant|h|h

Someone offended by everyone and everything came and disabled all illumination and time of day while I was making a new account. By the way, BG players can come and upgrade the ultimate and vampirism in this house if necessary.
This is not to mention that everything on this account was bought with cash. All the DLCs, all the places in the changing room, a bunch of alliance change tokens and race tickets. Do you know why Kjalner's mask went up from 2x to 4x million? they ban my accounts. The second account was banned for the character's name (which other players have), but in fact for being linked to the first account.
No one can prove to me that any of these players who complained about me suffered at least as much as I did in the end.

I do not know in what totalitarian environment the one who came up with these rules of behavior was brought up, but neither they nor the way they are implemented have anything to do with the commercial product and are simply not adequate.

reazea · May 3

Decimus wrote: »

Yesterday yet another streamer (this time a stream team member) received a 72 hour suspension for "tbagging/harssment", despite never having been asked to stop tbagging.

How is it that people who are following what is the official policy described here on the forums are receiving bans? And people who never even tbagged in the first place?

It's not really good for the game that paying customers and streamers who promote the game are receiving weaponized bans despite adhering to what is the official stance posted here on the forums:

Teabagging in-game is generally not a direct violation of ToS. However, when an impacted player asks you to stop and you refuse, that is when we have crossed into targeted harassment territory. If this happens and the impacted player reports the incident with video proof, then an investigation will open for ToS violations for targeted harassment. This can lead to possible suspension or permanent ban. So please take requests to stop seriously.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8286782/#Comment_8286782

So how come are people not only being investigated, but also actioned when there is no proof of them being asked to stop tbagging? In the case of streamers, literally everything is recorded and you can often see the incidents on VOD and that no one asked the streamer to stop, or that tbagging didn't even happen in many cases.

@ZOS_Kevin would it be possible to get a follow up on what you wrote a couple of months ago here on the forums?

It's not good that people are being actioned when they're doing everything according to what was written.

You seem to be operating under the notion that teabagging is something other than inherently toxic, inappropriate behavior. The only time teabagging is not against the ToS is when it's among friends having a laugh with each other.

Everyone knows, without being told, that teabagging an enemy is toxic and inappropriate. If a streamer did it then they most especially should get a temporary ban, followed by a permaban if the behavior continues. This is even more so the case if a stream team member is guilty of the toxic behavior.

The mentioning of "the victim hadn't yet told the offender not to do it" is not an excuse or a way out of this situation. Everyone knows teabagging in the situation you have described is a violation of the ToS. The only grey area here is that ZOS doesn't have a history of enforcing the anti-teabagging policy evenly or frequently enough.

This situation is super simple. Teabagging is toxic, inappropriate behavior. Don't do it. People who are banned for teabagging are not victims. They are the offenders. If a person is so worked up they feel the need to teabag then they should log off and take a break until they cool down and can resume friendly competition. It's just a game.

Decimus · May 3

reazea wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Yesterday yet another streamer (this time a stream team member) received a 72 hour suspension for "tbagging/harssment", despite never having been asked to stop tbagging.

How is it that people who are following what is the official policy described here on the forums are receiving bans? And people who never even tbagged in the first place?

It's not really good for the game that paying customers and streamers who promote the game are receiving weaponized bans despite adhering to what is the official stance posted here on the forums:

Teabagging in-game is generally not a direct violation of ToS. However, when an impacted player asks you to stop and you refuse, that is when we have crossed into targeted harassment territory. If this happens and the impacted player reports the incident with video proof, then an investigation will open for ToS violations for targeted harassment. This can lead to possible suspension or permanent ban. So please take requests to stop seriously.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8286782/#Comment_8286782

So how come are people not only being investigated, but also actioned when there is no proof of them being asked to stop tbagging? In the case of streamers, literally everything is recorded and you can often see the incidents on VOD and that no one asked the streamer to stop, or that tbagging didn't even happen in many cases.

@ZOS_Kevin would it be possible to get a follow up on what you wrote a couple of months ago here on the forums?

It's not good that people are being actioned when they're doing everything according to what was written.

You seem to be operating under the notion that teabagging is something other than inherently toxic, inappropriate behavior. The only time teabagging is not against the ToS is when it's among friends having a laugh with each other.

Everyone knows, without being told, that teabagging an enemy is toxic and inappropriate. If a streamer did it then they most especially should get a temporary ban, followed by a permaban if the behavior continues. This is even more so the case if a stream team member is guilty of the toxic behavior.

The mentioning of "the victim hadn't yet told the offender not to do it" is not an excuse or a way out of this situation. Everyone knows teabagging in the situation you have described is a violation of the ToS. The only grey area here is that ZOS doesn't have a history of enforcing the anti-teabagging policy evenly or frequently enough.

This situation is super simple. Teabagging is toxic, inappropriate behavior. Don't do it. People who are banned for teabagging are not victims. They are the offenders. If a person is so worked up they feel the need to teabag then they should log off and take a break until they cool down and can resume friendly competition. It's just a game.

I'm not going to get into my personal opinions on whether it should/shouldn't be allowed and whether it's appropriate or not, but did you click on the link that details the official stance on it by ZOS? If you don't want to click on the link then here, let me save you the trouble:

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
Hi all. We wanted to address the recent conversations around teabagging and proper etiquette around the action in-game. In the past, we have noted that context matters when teabagging in-game and when responding to that action. Teabagging in-game is generally not a direct violation of ToS. However, when an impacted player asks you to stop and you refuse, that is when we have crossed into targeted harassment territory. If this happens and the impacted player reports the incident with video proof, then an investigation will open for ToS violations for targeted harassment. This can lead to possible suspension or permanent ban. So please take requests to stop seriously.

For those reporting a potential violation, please make sure you provide a video that makes it clear that you asked the user who teabagged you in-game to please stop the action and continued action after the ask.

We hope this clears things up for everyone, especially as we are going into Whitestrake's Mayhem. Again, we understand why some players choose to engage in teabagging. But we want to respect anyone's wishes who do not want to be subject to the in-game action of teabagging.

I'm highlighting the important bit here. This was posted just a few months ago...

Wouldn't you say that people acting based on what ZOS says is ok shouldn't be getting banned, and if they are clarification on this should be warranted? It's hard for people to play by the rules if the rules are in fact not what are officially stated.

Furthermore, most of these reports are from people who engage in the very same type of behaviour and much worse and their aim is to simply get someone out of the game that kills them in PvP. A lot of these reports are also completely fabricated, with no tbagging even happening (and provable with VODs)... simply report spam hoping that the customer they dislike gets banned at the mere mention of "tbagging" and no actual investigation takes place.

Jierdanit · May 3

reazea wrote: »

You seem to be operating under the notion that teabagging is something other than inherently toxic, inappropriate behavior. The only time teabagging is not against the ToS is when it's among friends having a laugh with each other.

Everyone knows, without being told, that teabagging an enemy is toxic and inappropriate. If a streamer did it then they most especially should get a temporary ban, followed by a permaban if the behavior continues. This is even more so the case if a stream team member is guilty of the toxic behavior.

If you get so offended by something as meaningless as teabagging then i would suggest that MMOs or online games in general are maybe not for you.

reazea wrote: »

The mentioning of "the victim hadn't yet told the offender not to do it" is not an excuse or a way out of this situation. Everyone knows teabagging in the situation you have described is a violation of the ToS. The only grey area here is that ZOS doesn't have a history of enforcing the anti-teabagging policy evenly or frequently enough.

This situation is super simple. Teabagging is toxic, inappropriate behavior. Don't do it. People who are banned for teabagging are not victims. They are the offenders. If a person is so worked up they feel the need to teabag then they should log off and take a break until they cool down and can resume friendly competition. It's just a game.

No its not against the ToS.

ZOS has repeatedly stated that teabagging is fine until the person being teabagged asks you to stop.
Just because you think so doesnt mean everyone should.

They are not the offenders. Teabagging is just as much part of the "friendly competition" as killing other players is in PvP.
As you said "its just a game", maybe you shouldnt be so offended by something thats just happening in a game.

MJallday · May 4

I’ll be honest . If ZOS didn’t think it was ok, then it shouldn’t be allowed in the game. Theres plenty they can do code wise to stop people crouching within 2m of another player - but they don’t

So as long as they allow it, its fair game as far as I’m
Concerned