I think Subclassing is a Godsend for Werewolves and the weaker classes such as Necro.
But the resulting Nerf to kill Sorcs is poopy.
Sorcs will either have to Subclass or just die.
But over all I think subclassing with be a nice addition to the game.

I do how ever think they need to add an Incentive perk for people that chose to stay true to 1 class. A pure class should get a Powerful buff of some sort making it worth while.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

Because it's been in the game for all it`s 11 years and some people like it for their own personal reasons and we shouldn't just take it away from them. TES game or not.

I guess I just want to know the reasons, so I can empathize, because right now I don't get it.

I doubt it, reasons have already been given and Ratzkifal gave you reasons, to which you even replied, so I know you've read them. But you didn't even try to empathize.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

So what happens if the master of the arcane arts now has to vomit poison everywhere because their main damage skills got nerfed?

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Then I assume he is quite capable at casting the spell that does so? It's not like vomiting poison ISN'T an arcane art - unless it's alchemy or something.

ZOS: "We expect just a little powercreep but not a lot.

Charles on Youtube doing 174K with subclassing.

I've thought about it since previous comments. I just wanted my necromancer to be buffed, and maybe werewolves to be buffed too. If it's too complicated I'll go play Torchlight. If there are too many options I'll be like a rabbit in headlights and never make any final decisions and end up creating lots of alts and running out of characters again.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

ZOS: "We expect just a little powercreep but not a lot.

Charles on Youtube doing 174K with subclassing.

In fairness, there's a bug that hasn't been fixed on PTS yet that's enabling those eye-popping numbers.

Having said that, we'll probably still see some ugly power creep after that's fixed.

Also in fairness, people exploiting that bug are in the 200k range, and the 170k range are specifically not using that bug.

We’re not “probably going to see some ugly power creep,” we absolutely will.

Oof.

"Login, do daily writs, logout" is sounding more likely at this point.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

[ [snip]

They talk about you because you're special, not because there's more of you than their are NPCs within 500 meters.

Yeah, that's the point; each and every one of us playing the game is "special." This works in a typical sandbox-y BethSoft game where you can be the omnicompetent Starborn/Dovahkiin/Sole Survivor etc. without impacting everyone else playing the game. In a multiplayer environment... not so much (see: GTA:O prior to Rockstar instituting a more-or-less functional anti-cheat.) Hence the reason Fallout 76 does not play like Fallout 4, despite both being based on the same code.

Wereswan wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

[ [snip]

They talk about you because you're special, not because there's more of you than their are NPCs within 500 meters.

Yeah, that's the point; each and every one of us playing the game is "special." This works in a typical sandbox-y BethSoft game where you can be the omnicompetent Starborn/Dovahkiin/Sole Survivor etc. without impacting everyone else playing the game. In a multiplayer environment... not so much (see: GTA:O prior to Rockstar instituting a more-or-less functional anti-cheat.) Hence the reason Fallout 76 does not play like Fallout 4, despite both being based on the same code.

But why doesn't it work? If the average Vestige can be hyper competent in all skill lines, and players are playing the average Vestige, why not give them all skill lines?

Again, even non-big-hero characters like NPCs can "multi class" (in ESO terminology; taking skills from across the gamut of game systems) - a wizard could learn to cloak, or a mage can use poison and summon bears (or whatever). That's just how the world works. And it's fine. People can do that in real life - a friend of mine is both the best knitter I know and a construction engineer.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

[ [snip]

They talk about you because you're special, not because there's more of you than their are NPCs within 500 meters.

Yeah, that's the point; each and every one of us playing the game is "special." This works in a typical sandbox-y BethSoft game where you can be the omnicompetent Starborn/Dovahkiin/Sole Survivor etc. without impacting everyone else playing the game. In a multiplayer environment... not so much (see: GTA:O prior to Rockstar instituting a more-or-less functional anti-cheat.) Hence the reason Fallout 76 does not play like Fallout 4, despite both being based on the same code.

But why doesn't it work? If the average Vestige can be hyper competent in all skill lines, and players are playing the average Vestige, why not give them all skill lines?

Again, even non-big-hero characters like NPCs can "multi class" (in ESO terminology; taking skills from across the gamut of game systems) - a wizard could learn to cloak, or a mage can use poison and summon bears (or whatever). That's just how the world works. And it's fine. People can do that in real life - a friend of mine is both the best knitter I know and a construction engineer.

If you don't understand why things that can work in single-player games become a problem in multi-player games, I can't help you and I'm done talking to you.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Not to repeat myself, but to repeat myself:
I empathize with the end game players

em·pa·thize
understand and share the feelings of another:

Peolpe are worried sub-classes will be OP and they have to use poison as wizzards to keep up.
An empathic response would be something like this: "Yea, that would suck but i hope/ think they will balance it to where subclassing is optional." End of the story.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Theme builds have been excluded from endgame for eternity and will continue to be excluded for eternity.

1. Pure classes have not been excluded.
2. Whats that about endgame ? You think early and midgame players with pure classes dont mind getting nerfed ?

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

That is not subclassing's fault - take it from someone who has been running theme builds for years.

Pure classes getting excluded will be subclassing's fault.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Do you want your arcane spell master to use restoration spells to keep himself alive as he distracts monsters as the tank?

No i want to play a pure class.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Better put that Resto Staff away before you put someone's eye out - it's SnB/ice staff or go home; guess you get excluded from content!

Not for playing a pure class.
Things aren't perfect so why not make them worse ? Right ? I guess we can just put away with player builds and do it like the vengeance PVP mode in PVE then ? /s


See that ? You'r not empathizeing (understanding and shareing our feelings) you'r strawmanning and cherry picking to "fight" our feelings.

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Not to repeat myself, but to repeat myself:
I empathize with the end game players

em·pa·thize
understand and share the feelings of another:

Peolpe are worried sub-classes will be OP and they have to use poison as wizzards to keep up.
An empathic response would be something like this: "Yea, that would suck but i hope/ think they will balance it to where subclassing is optional." End of the story.

I do hope that and I thought that would be obvious. In fact, I think (again at the risk of repeating myself) I even said so. I will check.

EDIT: yep. In this very thread, one page ago:

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Indeed, I admire their dedication to theme and applaud them, while hoping they can make it work. I also hope for themes to be balanced, while also recognizing that it is impossible to *expect* them to be so.

Remember, I said that in the context of understanding classes to just be (formerly) dev-enforced themes - the enforcement of which is finally going away!

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Theme builds have been excluded from endgame for eternity and will continue to be excluded for eternity.

1. Pure classes have not been excluded.
2. Whats that about endgame ? You think early and midgame players with pure classes dont mind getting nerfed ?

1) pure classes have been excluded, just not for class related reasons. Anyone that HAS EVER BEEN EXCLUDED UP TO THIS POINT has been a pure class, because it was impossible to be otherwise.
2) I hope not? I mean, "minding getting nerfed so the game can be better" just strikes me as selfish. They can either adapt, or not - and not adapting is fine, just like adapting.

Classes are just themes.

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

That is not subclassing's fault - take it from someone who has been running theme builds for years.

Pure classes getting excluded will be subclassing's fault.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Do you want your arcane spell master to use restoration spells to keep himself alive as he distracts monsters as the tank?

No i want to play a pure class.

Why? Because you like the theme?

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Better put that Resto Staff away before you put someone's eye out - it's SnB/ice staff or go home; guess you get excluded from content!

Not for playing a pure class.
Things aren't perfect so why not make them worse ? Right ? I guess we can just put away with player builds and do it like the vengeance PVP mode in PVE then ? /s

You miss my point. There is nothing special or sacred about pure classes. They are dev-enforced themes - just as dev-enforced as SnB and Ice Staff being the only useful tanking weapons in harder content.

Allowing players to theme outside of dev-enforced themes ('classes') is a *good thing*, just like fixing it so a resto-staff person could tank with it would be a *good thing* in your example. You even said it yourself:
"Just because things aren't perfect, we should make them worse" - no, my point was we should fix that thing too.

And, before you accuse me of trying to kill balance, I do hope it can be balanced too (while also recognizing the possibility it may be impossible to perfectly do so).

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

See that ? You'r not empathizeing (understanding and shareing our feelings) you'r strawmanning and cherry picking to "fight" our feelings.

No, what I see is people who don't understand my point of "classes are just (formerly) dev-enforced themes" and hold them to be some special category of sacred, while agreeing with me that dev-enforced theming is a silly idea even in other places (like resto-staff tank example).

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Not to repeat myself, but to repeat myself:
I empathize with the end game players

em·pa·thize
understand and share the feelings of another:

Peolpe are worried sub-classes will be OP and they have to use poison as wizzards to keep up.
An empathic response would be something like this: "Yea, that would suck but i hope/ think they will balance it to where subclassing is optional." End of the story.

I do hope that and I thought that would be obvious. In fact, I think (again at the risk of repeating myself) I even said so. I will check.

EDIT: yep. In this very thread, one page ago:

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Indeed, I admire their dedication to theme and applaud them, while hoping they can make it work. I also hope for themes to be balanced, while also recognizing that it is impossible to *expect* them to be so.

Remember, I said that in the context of understanding classes to just be (formerly) dev-enforced themes - the enforcement of which is finally going away!

You can say you empathize all you want but in oder to do it you have to... you know... do it. Not just provide lip service.
Then you say things like this again " dev-enforced themes - the enforcement of which is finally going away!" For YOU but for others its coming! We will be dev-enforced to use themes we dont want to use to keep up. But you only play it down, sometimes with very snarky remarks. And you even provide a great exemple right next.

What do you mean by "keep up"? Why, if you are interested in theme more than power, do you need to "keep up"? The only person responsible for you "having to use these new things" is yourself, not the devs, because you think you need to "keep up" with something.

That's the opposite of dev-enforced. That's self-imposed.

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Theme builds have been excluded from endgame for eternity and will continue to be excluded for eternity.

1. Pure classes have not been excluded.
2. Whats that about endgame ? You think early and midgame players with pure classes dont mind getting nerfed ?

1) pure classes have been excluded, just not for class related reasons. Anyone that HAS EVER BEEN EXCLUDED UP TO THIS POINT has been a pure class, because it was impossible to be otherwise.
2) I hope not? I mean, "minding getting nerfed so the game can be better" just strikes me as selfish. They can either adapt, or not - and not adapting is fine, just like adapting.

1) Ofcourse my point was "pure classes have not been excluded based on being a pure class. But they will be after subclassing and thats a hughe downside of it." Yet you act like you dont understand that just so you dont have to acknowledge i have point.

2) Again:
-Others minding getting nerfed so the game can be better FOR YOU (not for them not objectively) just strikes you as selfish.
-You wanting others to get nerfed or use themes they dont like so the game can be better FOR YOU does not strike you as selfish.
-They can either adapt, or not - and not adapting is fine, FOR YOU, they will get locked from conted they can do now but thats not YOUR problem afterall, so i guess that doesnt matter.

It's not their problem either, unless they both want to do mega super endgame content and also have a theme build - which has never been possible in ESO and subclassing is orthogonal to that point.

Themed Builds and Endgame Content are incompatible, and I hope that changes, but it is simply true now and will be equally (neither more nor less true) after subclassing.

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

No i want to play a pure class.

Why? Because you like the theme?

Yes.

Then it's a theme build, and any expectation theme builds can do endgame content is misguided, and *always has been, with or without subclassing*.

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

You miss my point. There is nothing special or sacred about pure classes. They are dev-enforced themes - just as dev-enforced as SnB and Ice Staff being the only useful tanking weapons in harder content.

Allowing players to theme outside of dev-enforced themes ('classes') is a *good thing*, just like fixing it so a resto-staff person could tank with it would be a *good thing* in your example. You even said it yourself:
"Just because things aren't perfect, we should make them worse" - no, my point was we should fix that thing too.

I do not miss that point i agree with it and i think it is better to lock some people out of themes they want to use then to force others in to using themes they dont want to use. "My rights stop where the rights of another start" kind of thing. I would love to put sorc skills on my necro but not if it means others are forced to use sorc skills too. I would not tell them "welp sucks for you, game is better now, dont be so selfish!" like you do. And i think thats the big difference between people for and against this.

I don't think anyone is being "forced into using themes they don't want to use". Forced is a strong word. No one is holding a gun to your head and saying SUBCLASS OR THE PLAYER GETS IT.

Meta-chasing is a choice, and people like me have chosen not to do it for a long time now, because we like theme builds. Welcome to the club, it's quite chill and cozy, since we're not constantly stressed about meta-chasing (though I personally am when I see people trying to take away a good idea because the Altar of Balance Demands Sacrifice!! Won't someone think of the meta!).

I would never in a million years tell a sorc player to slot necro skills (well, I might as advice before I realize they want to play pure sorc). I certainly would never force them to. The only person who *can* force them to is themselves, or maybe weirdo and uncompromising guild leads that give them an ultimatum.

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

See that ? You'r not empathizeing (understanding and shareing our feelings) you'r strawmanning and cherry picking to "fight" our feelings.

No, what I see is people who don't understand my point of "classes are just (formerly) dev-enforced themes" and hold them to be some special category of sacred, while agreeing with me that dev-enforced theming is a silly idea even in other places (like resto-staff tank example).

I dont see that TBH.

I am sorry you don't see that, but there really is nothing stopping people from playing pure classes except themselves. Could you articulate what is happening instead?

---

Let me try to simplify the discussion into points:
1) classes are just character themes
2) People, for years, have been choosing whether to build a theme build or meta chase.
3) That choice exists and has always existed regardless of subclassing's existence.
4) Subclassing is just another in a series of decisions players have to make between keeping their character thematic, or chasing the meta.

Before subclassing (live right now), you can either chase the meta (in which case, go for it), or you can choose instead to play themed characters (in which case, go for it). In 99.9% of cases, a themed build is off-meta and excluded currently.

After subclassing (in the PTS right now), you can either chase the meta (in which case, go for it), or you can choose instead to play themed characters (in which case, go for it). In 99.9% of cases, a theme build is off-meta and excluded entirely.

ALL THAT HAS CHANGED is themed builds are even easier to construct and play on the PTS, because people interested in that have more tools.

Stopping subclassing does nothing for theme builds except make them harder to construct. It also does nothing for meta-chasers, except give them less to chase.

---

Lastly, on the "getting nerfed" thing - nerfing is a normal part of game design. The nail that sticks out gets hammered down - rather than trying to pull out every single other nail. It's just how games work. Being upset your character got nerfed is essentially saying "I *liked* using more overpowered stuff than everyone else".

If you are truly more into theme than meta, on the other hand, then getting nerfed *doesn't matter*. You get excluded from endgame content anyways. Heck, maybe this nerf actually achieves Balance In All Things and you can do even more than you could do before - at worst, it makes your theme build take longer to kill enemies or weaker as a tank or whatever. but strength already wasn't your priority so I genuinely don't understand why this kind of person would be bothered by nerfs.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Why do we care about class identity in an Elder Scrolls game?

PrinceShroob wrote: »

Because it's also a MMO.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Ah, yes, a perfect reply that absolutely logically explains your argument. I am now convinced!
(/s)

How is "it's an Elder Scrolls game" any better of an argument?

Because it's set in a consistent universe, and one of the consistencies (until ESO) is "most kinds of people can master most kinds of skills". I would like to play a game set in the Elder Scrolls universe, and not, say, the Marvel Avengers universe or something new altogether.

Similarly, if this thread were about "should F-35s be in our World War II game" I would expect "no, because it's a World War II game" to be a better argument than "yes, it's an online war game".

TES is set in a consistent Single Player universe. ESO is a multiplayer game/universe. Single player game mechanics do not translate well into multiplayer/group focused games.

[edit] In fact, IIRC there was quite the discussion and forwarning about this within the gaming community before ESO even released into beta.

True and that discussion from BETA seems to pop its head up every so often when new players come into ESO after a $5 steam sale.

I'm looking forward to it overall. I have a few ideas for a couple of my characters that should be fun thematically at least.

I am very worried about this. My main concerns are power creep, balanance and identity.

We are already seeing 170k+ parses on pts. The balance in this game will be conlmpletly gone if this hits the live servers as is on pts right now. There need to be put some serious work in to figure out how to balance this. I am worried that in order to put some balance in zos will nerf the skills from the base classes, making them so weak no one plays them. Or if you play them you are left behind.

Class identity will not excist annymore. I personally like lvling up a class, master them and be proud of it. Having their own skill set.Its one of the main things i like in eso.

This should not make it to the live servers. The whole idea of subclassing as it is should go. I fear, no know that allot of long time players will leave the game when this goes live.

LPapirius wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This is basically a class change token without being a class change token.

It's more like a class eliminating token, but with no token and no choice not to participate. This is horrible for the future of ESO in my view.

Agreed. I have a decent DPS DK build that was well themed and could hit 100k+. Utilizing sets like Runecarver and Orders Wrath. OW is a passive set so it didn’t go against the theme of DK. Ansuul would’ve been another great option. It wasn’t super high end like 130k build… but it was easily vet trial ready.

Now with subclassing, I fear groups will demand players to subclass and have a minimum of, say 150k DPS.

I mean the highest dps parse is around ~130k. With subclassing it’s ~170k. That’s not only a 40k dps jump, but a substantial one when you count all 10 dps in a trial. Even if you count 5 dps who can hit 170k using the exact same setup, that’s a 200k dps increase. Now imagine with an elite group where all 10 dps could hit 170k… I know this may not be entirely accurate given trials have mechanics and parsing doesn’t. But it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a huge increase in power when multiplied by the number of players in a group.

This ain’t a power creep. It’s a power sprint. Or power rush, breach, whatever you want to call it.

Which could lead to the release of harder content to counter subclassing. Like more bullet spongy bosses with 1 billion hp. Leaving pure classes behind entirely.

I’ve said this before. I’m NOT against subclassing personally. I simply would like pure classes to still have relevancy and its own place in the game.