Please bring back Vengeance campaign

aetherix8 · April 2

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Yes, they said it was just a test. But those of us who've spent months enduring previous tests and seen the results know how this movie ends. The only thing they've ever done in the past in response to "tests" is lower the pop cap and half the group size. So, no need to panic....not yet anyway.

Lol I know perfectly well this feeling (I played some no-proc Ravenwatch and the live tests before it), let's hope lessons were learned from past failed experiments.

colossalvoids · April 2

It might have been just a system test that has nothing to do with anything that would become Cyro in the future but when after being out of combat (when you're actually out of combat), not seeing ball groups, seeing action on multiple fronts any time of the day, massive sieges, no ganking nor tanking 10+ people, having no need for reveal and being able to cloak that works, skills being impactful and players being equalised with no more tree huggers and rock runners alive to see the resource tower it feels wrong to play what's on live now. I felt very sceptical but I simply don't want to participate in the mess it is currently anymore when I saw the template for how it could be actually fun. A shame next test would probably be in a year with ZOS speeds and the results would translate to live environment in another two to three most probably.

Markytous · April 2

The_Meathead wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

There were only really one class that could reliably do more than 1v1 and that was NB. Not that it was impossible on other classes, but other than that Vengeance had very little room for expressing skill.

I'd agree with this. I was able to 1v2/3 a few times on my Templar by rolling a lot and pebble-humping (I know, I know, I'm amazing ) but by and large, there just wasn't enough range in possible action for skill to shine enough to say I really outplayed anyone. By and large, Vengeance was just about who got the drop or had buddies, which was fun in its novelty to me but very, very limiting.

There's so much more going on, far far faster, and with greater disparity and variance in current PvP than was on display in Vengeance, that while I absolutely understand the warm fuzzy feeling people felt as they killed someone whose @name is usually a death wish to engage and even kinda felt it myself a few times, it's something of a false positive. Winning a race on a slow single speed go-cart where you just smash the gas pedal is only so much of a victory imo.

As Mangle mentioned, the class kits weren't balanced in the slightest either; something ZOS emphasized heavily in response whenever it was brought up. So, I have a hard time saying skill was truly highlighted in Vengeance, when to me it was pretty marginalized by the lack of how far play could take you.

It wasn't skillful play... unless it was Dragonknight 1vXing in Vengeance Cyrodiil

Play the most underpowered option to test your skills. Yes. I was wupping Sorcs and Nbs out there. They had plenty in their kits to make minced meat out of me but... they didn't! That is where the satisfaction comes from.

Joy_Division · April 2

Xarc wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

If ZOS gave us some customization, removed the silly AoE cap of 3, [...] I do think Vengeance has potential.

On the contrary, I think that the AOE cap at 3 is a very good thing, especially against ballgroups.
And it's likely that it also has a significant impact on lag.

I don't know if you played in ESO's early days or paid attention to the debates we had about AoE caps, but we know the following as per admitted by ZOS

Ballgroups benefited heavily from AoE caps
AoE caps had a negative impact on performance
AoE caps led to undesirable AvAvA play patterns

53:00 mark. That was the lead combat dev.

Markytous · April 2

colossalvoids wrote: »

It might have been just a system test that has nothing to do with anything that would become Cyro in the future but when after being out of combat (when you're actually out of combat), not seeing ball groups, seeing action on multiple fronts any time of the day, massive sieges, no ganking nor tanking 10+ people, having no need for reveal and being able to cloak that works, skills being impactful and players being equalised with no more tree huggers and rock runners alive to see the resource tower it feels wrong to play what's on live now. I felt very sceptical but I simply don't want to participate in the mess it is currently anymore when I saw the template for how it could be actually fun. A shame next test would probably be in a year with ZOS speeds and the results would translate to live environment in another two to three most probably.

It was truly something special. A glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be and a look into the future towards what I can be again... Lastly, an ugly reminder of what Cyrodiil has devolved into currently. I really hope it isn't as you say and they take years to engineer Vengeance into a complete experience with Weapon/Armor Skills, Guild Skills and passives.

Stridig · April 2

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

I don't think they can do anything that will make the player base happy. I think everyone should take a trip down memory lane in the forums at look at all the complaints from years past. The complaints have gone from "All this game is good for is zerg, zerg, zerg. There's no room for individuality or small scale" to "This game is too unbalanced and now groups of 12 can beat groups of 20" and everything in between. This game is played by too many emotional people that will never be happy no matter what. Now there are calls for making vengeance permanent? LOL.... Give me a break.

We don;t need top be happy as in PvP is perfect, in the just what I want way. All ZOS needs to do is provide an environment in which many different type of players can find something they enjoy about PvP and feel like they can meaningfully contribute.

Sure, we complained a lot about the early days of Cyordiil. It was zergy because the pop caps were so high. But any of the old 1vXers would say that was the best time to 1vX. We had ball groups being ball groups, but what they could do with 24 was not as powerful/disruptive with what they can do with 12 today. We had broken builds and bad balance, but also those epic fights such that even "casual" players would consistently have fights in which they could get kills and weren't constantly matched-up with sweats who would take their lunch money. In short, there was something for everyone. Even if it wasn't everything we wanted.

I would say much was the same about Vengeance. There were a lot of things I would do differently: the balance was not there, the AoE cap of 3 is silly, weapons were pointless, etc. So, yeah, complaints. BUT, the test was still fun because it did bring PvP elements that were enjoyable (epic fights, constant fights, no unkillable builds, etc.) that do not exist on Live and, importantly, provided many opportunities for "casual' players to do things and feel as if they are making a contribution, even if it is just zerging down the next castle. I am not fully happy with everything about Vengeance, but I would be happy to play it.

I respect your thought and opinions. The test was fun for a short time. Many people like Cyrodiil just the way it is, or with a few tweaks. Stuck in combat, free pull sets, healing being issues that could be worked out. But gutting Cyrodiil so casuals can feel like they have an impact would not be good. People would start asking for a difficulty slider for Cyrodiil too.

Funny, most of the top tier pvpers would counter your statement. Having dlc cheese carry proc and pull sets is the only reason casuals are impactful. For me seeing someone say they couldn't 1v2 or 1vX in vengeance just tells me where they stand mechanically.

Take vengeance and give some stat choices through rebalanced: enchants, mundus, sets, etc. you will quickly see who is suddenly a real casual.

I only RP as a top tier player. Also, most people who claim to be top tier PvPers were outed as frauds during vengeance.

There were only really one class that could reliably do more than 1v1 and that was NB. Not that it was impossible on other classes, but other than that Vengeance had very little room for expressing skill. Claiming sets (or whatever excuse one need to feel better about themselves) is the major source of someone's success is some insane coping mechanism. Sure there are sets and other things that could use some rebalance but proper itemization is as much of a skill/knowledge as using the "wrong gear" is a skill issue as well.

Most people I see saying things like "Hehe these players aren´t actually as good as they think there were, they were just carried by sets" would say this while simultaneously sitting in the 50-100 man blobs Vengeance allowed and outnumber said people they complain about. I don´t care how people play in Cyrodiil, it´s their business, but the amount of excuses and mental gymnastic people manage to come up with is nothing less than top tier entertainment.

I personally found Vengeance bland/boring. I hope the data zos could gather can be used to improve performance, increase population without removing/restricting the version of Cyrodiil we currently have.

I found it boring too. I like double AP but even that isn't too enticing for me.

The_Meathead · April 2

My only victory over a 1v2 was me running around a rock and knocking two of the three off with Javelins long enough to finish off one, then repeating it with the other. Outside of that, I never got at all close to doing it again.

I'm sure it made someone swear a bit on the other end, but it was the singular highlight reel play for me in the whole week. Otherwise, I managed a handful of 1v2s but typically just ate dirt in a hurry any time I was outnumbered - and likewise, smushed pretty much anyone on the other end when I had numbers on my side.

Never felt like lining up burst, watching out for someone else's (minus a NB perhaps), or having to understand what the other player was doing really factored in like it usually does. It was just 'DO DAMAGE, DO DAMAGE, HEAL, DO DAMAGE, DO DAMAGE, HEAL,' and it lacked the greater nuance of normal PvP.

DK chains seriously felt like the pinnacle of "specialty moves," in there. Everything else was so direct and overt, and simple.

Don't get me wrong. I feel like Vengeance exposed so much of what's wrong about current Cyrodiil that I've only dragged myself in there for about a half hour since things returned to normal. There's so much that can be improved, and hopefully will be.

I just feel like claiming Vengeance was this platform where skill could at last truly shine isn't accurate, either.

Wallar333 · April 2

I have to say it AGAIN for those who probably dont understand. I believe that NO ONE normal with healthy brain, who actually wants to play a real and challenging PVP would like to have the SAME vengeance campaign as it was during the test, such gameplay makes no sense, and it wouldnt be fun for more than a few hours.
Im sure most of us wants some kind of ENHANCED vengeance campaign. I made a thread, and later posted a comment into main champions thread about it, made suggestions how such campaign should looks like, its on lower half of page 7. Heres part of it.

* Vengeance was better and much more fun than normal cyro. Why ? Well from the bigger part because it made new players to be equal to endgame players in everything, except game experience, which led to WHOLE community to enjoy pvp.
But even many veteran players likes this kind of cyro more, than normal one, and that is caused by:

1. NO unbalanced crazy sets.
2. NO crazy crosshealing/shielding
3. NO ballgroups
And also its sad to say it, by this pvp feels more balanced than normal one.

Equality of players is much closer there, than its in normal cyro, which is just poisoned with few ballgroups just playing their own game. Crosshealing is almost absent there OR its too weak to even be recognized, its definitely not gamebreaking as it is in normal cyro where are all those heals even shielded by DMG shields, which is destroying any fun of pvp.

I would vote to keep this campaign to let ppl actually have fun playing PVP. I would just change a few things. I would suggest to do it like this:

1. Weapon, armor and race passives to be active
2. Switch all UNLIMITED things for regular inventory stuff, so ppl would still have to craft/buy potions etc.
3. Food buffs to be active
4. Changing current max stats to 2/3
5. Changing builds to provide their armor, enchants and trait bonuses, but keeping all SET bonuses BLOCKED
6. Changing cyro test spells to regular class ones but WITHOUT class passives
7. Alliance war skill lines to be active
8. Keeping champion points BLOCKED for obvious reasons
9. EDIT: Some classes are dependent on some weapon skills, so if it wont cause lags, it would be better to add those as well, for such classes. Those skills wont change pure fair gameplay i would like to achieve by making such campaign.
10. Mundus stone bonuses to be active

*To make it more clear, just make this campaign without set bonuses, class passives and world and guild skill lines. Also BLOCK CP points. The rest could stay the same as in normal cyro, with one thing to consider, reducing healing/shielding by another 15%, making it 70% instead of 55%.

Also ome more thing to consider could be changing cyro joining not by actual alliance, but by which alliance would need more players, cos as some ppl stated, sometimes one alliance have 50+ more players making it too hard to play against such a mass in less numbers.

This would make cyro much more fun, and much more balanced and tactical. Its just my suggestion, i can surely be changed for the better, someone can sure have a good idea how it could be possible to make it even better, while also such campaign would need to be tested, which im sure MANY community members would like to help with testing this, and making such campaign to live.

Doing this, i also suggest to merge gray host and blackreach campaigns into ONE keeping it alliance locked. And also another thing to consider could be merging under lvl 50 campaign with vengeance, cos its in 95% time completely dead campaign, and even if not, then usually only veteran players are fighting there anyway. With just newly created characters with golded builds, which is nonsense to keep such campaign, ment for new players, no one would play it.
This is actually also a problem in under 50 BGs, where i would also suggest to BLOCK set bonuses to prevent this, and let it be for actually new players to train there.

Till now, whole PVP was 100% new player unfriendly, while it was also incredibly boring and just bad even for veteran players. This campaign could actually save this games PVP, making it accesible and FUN for the WHOLE community.*

Im only one actually trying to spam this, so ZOS would hopefully at least think of it. We should all do the same, if we want such campaign to live, maybe now is the time we can throw this on ZOS and push them to actually do SOMETHING for games PVP.

As for those who are afraid that this could replace old cyro, well, im not voting for removing old cyro, im voting to make a campaign for us, those who dont likes that old cyro nonsense. As for those who are afraid that zos would *waste* their time making such campaign instead of balancing old cyro, then WAKE UP guys, its 8 years or something since release, and old cyro is simply dying, it looks IMPOSSIBLE to balance it through years, from bigger part thanks to sets. Creating such alternative campaign definitely wouldnt be a *waste of time* as some stated, it could actually SAVE this games PVP. And if someone wouldnt like it, well thats why im against replacing old cyro, so such ppl could stay there playing that nonsense, and letting us others to enjoy a normal PVP in our alternative campaign !

As i see it, then trying to FIX the old cyro would be more a *waste of time* than creating some kind of alternative new enhanced vengeance campaign. Im almost sure that old cyro would die in a few weeks if ZOS gives us such campaign, cos no one would play old cyro after, leaving just ballgroups playing against each other in that unbalanced nonsense, which would lead MOST players to move to vengance instead of staying in old cyro. And if those bad mechanics enjoyers starts crying about *why theyre paying premiums if they cant use their sets* cos no one would play old cyro, and they would be sad about not beeing allowed to ruin new vengance, well who cares. Its again up to devs, if they want to keep a FEW players happy, players who likes this BAD state of PVP defending all bad mechanics in the game, OR if they want to do something for the WHOLE community.
Sure i understand that this is all about money for them, im not a child to have illusions, but less ppl/less money. And if they keep it like this, there would only those FEW noobs playing their own **** and everyone else leaves OR simply wont pay a **** for anything in this game, and those FEW noobs wouldnt save this game, nor make any significant amount of money for devs. So its up dev team now, what theyll do, im sure that bigger part of community gave them enough hints what we want, but keep spamming guys, maybe if theyll see that were actually ***** then maybe theyll do something

. So join me in suggestions for enhanced vengeance, keep pushing, and lets see what happens. If they wont move a finger, or if they just try to *FIX* old cyro again, well, this games PVP would just stay drowned in the same ****.

TyrantNikolai · April 2

Cyrodiil the way it is currently is hot garbage and cheesy no life players feeling good about killing someone only when they can get a 500 balorghs. However Vengeance would need more added to it to make the long term game play rewarding instead on just earning ap. If zos could just balance sets and add counters to high health tanky cheese builds.

Wallar333 · April 2

TyrantNikolai wrote: »

Cyrodiil the way it is currently is hot garbage and cheesy no life players feeling good about killing someone only when they can get a 500 balorghs. However Vengeance would need more added to it to make the long term game play rewarding instead on just earning ap. If zos could just balance sets and add counters to high health tanky cheese builds.

Im almost sure theres no point in trying to *FIX* old cyro. ANY group buff would always ruin pvp here, making it only playable for ballgroups. Either group bonuses from sets or class passives. While also guild/world passives would always give a BIG advantage for veterans against new players, which is exactly reason why ppl under 1000CP are refusing to play that nonsense completely.
EDIT: ANY proc sets would also ruin PVP for obvious reasons.

I just played cyro for literally few minutes now, but ive had enough right away, 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 triliditiorions of shields atop of of insta full HP healing, the same **** as it always was. While also like 80% of players ive met were 2000CP+ from which like 80% were either sorcs or DKs, that can tell enough about this games pvp, its simply ruined. You either run into ballgroup or you meet a sorc or DK, which are both almost unkillable 1v1 with any other class. Ive got DK to 20% like 4 times, and he got to full HP and half bar shielded in a second, so incredibly great PVP. Really a dumb vengeance test was more fun that this bull ****.

Yasha · April 2

[

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

I don't think they can do anything that will make the player base happy. I think everyone should take a trip down memory lane in the forums at look at all the complaints from years past. The complaints have gone from "All this game is good for is zerg, zerg, zerg. There's no room for individuality or small scale" to "This game is too unbalanced and now groups of 12 can beat groups of 20" and everything in between. This game is played by too many emotional people that will never be happy no matter what. Now there are calls for making vengeance permanent? LOL.... Give me a break.

We don;t need top be happy as in PvP is perfect, in the just what I want way. All ZOS needs to do is provide an environment in which many different type of players can find something they enjoy about PvP and feel like they can meaningfully contribute.

Sure, we complained a lot about the early days of Cyordiil. It was zergy because the pop caps were so high. But any of the old 1vXers would say that was the best time to 1vX. We had ball groups being ball groups, but what they could do with 24 was not as powerful/disruptive with what they can do with 12 today. We had broken builds and bad balance, but also those epic fights such that even "casual" players would consistently have fights in which they could get kills and weren't constantly matched-up with sweats who would take their lunch money. In short, there was something for everyone. Even if it wasn't everything we wanted.

I would say much was the same about Vengeance. There were a lot of things I would do differently: the balance was not there, the AoE cap of 3 is silly, weapons were pointless, etc. So, yeah, complaints. BUT, the test was still fun because it did bring PvP elements that were enjoyable (epic fights, constant fights, no unkillable builds, etc.) that do not exist on Live and, importantly, provided many opportunities for "casual' players to do things and feel as if they are making a contribution, even if it is just zerging down the next castle. I am not fully happy with everything about Vengeance, but I would be happy to play it.

I respect your thought and opinions. The test was fun for a short time. Many people like Cyrodiil just the way it is, or with a few tweaks. Stuck in combat, free pull sets, healing being issues that could be worked out. But gutting Cyrodiil so casuals can feel like they have an impact would not be good. People would start asking for a difficulty slider for Cyrodiil too.

Funny, most of the top tier pvpers would counter your statement. Having dlc cheese carry proc and pull sets is the only reason casuals are impactful. For me seeing someone say they couldn't 1v2 or 1vX in vengeance just tells me where they stand mechanically.

Take vengeance and give some stat choices through rebalanced: enchants, mundus, sets, etc. you will quickly see who is suddenly a real casual.

I agree. I saw several players in Vengeance who were able to 1vX or consistently win 1v1s. They were just more skilled than the players around them and that was cool to see because you knew that it had nothing to do with gear/cheese.

The same is true for group play. I see some people on the forums saying things like it was just zerg vs zerg or a numbers game, but my experience was that playing with a dedicated group of players in voice coms gave us a big advantage that let us beat larger groups of unorganized players.

I would love to have had more skills and options available of course, but the bottom line is that Vengeance was just a more fun, skill-based version of Cyrodiil and somehow at the same time more accessable for players of all skill levels. I would take it over the current offering anyday.

DeadlySerious · April 3

Markytous wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

It might have been just a system test that has nothing to do with anything that would become Cyro in the future but when after being out of combat (when you're actually out of combat), not seeing ball groups, seeing action on multiple fronts any time of the day, massive sieges, no ganking nor tanking 10+ people, having no need for reveal and being able to cloak that works, skills being impactful and players being equalised with no more tree huggers and rock runners alive to see the resource tower it feels wrong to play what's on live now. I felt very sceptical but I simply don't want to participate in the mess it is currently anymore when I saw the template for how it could be actually fun. A shame next test would probably be in a year with ZOS speeds and the results would translate to live environment in another two to three most probably.

It was truly something special. A glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be and a look into the future towards what I can be again... Lastly, an ugly reminder of what Cyrodiil has devolved into currently. I really hope it isn't as you say and they take years to engineer Vengeance into a complete experience with Weapon/Armor Skills, Guild Skills and passives.

There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.

It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.

Markytous · April 3

DeadlySerious wrote: »

There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.

It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.

If you decided you needed to follow the zerg and press some buttons, thats all cool. Meanwhile, people like me were making our own fun across the map, pressuring different resources, keeps and making plays on towns. If you find it boring, thats cool. Lag, ballgroups, bombs and blocktanks isn't for me tho. In otherwords, yes it was special in a good way objectively whether or not one decides to take a blind eye towards the server performance. Here comes the PVE strawman again!

colossalvoids · April 3

Markytous wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.

It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.

If you decided you needed to follow the zerg and press some buttons, thats all cool.

That is quite logical for people who didn't liked what the test was about, they just didn't played it much. I have started the same way but after couple hours of boredom was getting more and more familiar with classes and what's it all about just went for solo resources, seeking people out on the outskirts etc. Where else you can wreck couple streamers doing mobs at the same time hehe. it was an experience that kind of reminded me pvp that was pre-sload's in a way, a healthier environment overall. Sure the loss of choices and building was there also but that's honestly not a hard thing to improve upon knowing what caused issues all this years. The foundation is here as a block one, so to get to the modern day ESO it should be carefully built from the ground up according to what performance allows and what's not emerging the same player behaviours and issues along with it.

WaywardArgonian · April 3

RaikaNA wrote: »

The problem is that ballgroups don't fight each other.. they fight casual and solo players inside of a trikeep, and farm AP. That's all they do. They contribute to nothing in their own faction. I've seen ballgroups use a scroll (even their own) as a source to AP farm. Rarely do I see them run the scroll back. They hold it as long as they can to lure people.

Ballgroups fight other ballgroups all the time. Sometimes they do it in GvG settings in places where you don't see them because they don't want a third party to interfere. Fighting against other ballgroups is the best way to practice so it is a staple of a lot of ballgroup runs.

Ballgroups using scrolls to bait people draws significant parts of an enemy alliance to them for prolonged periods of time. A good ballgroup can occupy the better part of a faction in their own backyard. Yet often players don't use that opportunity to take back territory and instead complain in zonechat.

Xarc · April 3

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

If ZOS gave us some customization, removed the silly AoE cap of 3, [...] I do think Vengeance has potential.

On the contrary, I think that the AOE cap at 3 is a very good thing, especially against ballgroups.
And it's likely that it also has a significant impact on lag.

I don't know if you played in ESO's early days or paid attention to the debates we had about AoE caps, but we know the following as per admitted by ZOS
Ballgroups benefited heavily from AoE caps

AoE caps had a negative impact on performance

AoE caps led to undesirable AvAvA play patterns

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/3621763

53:00 mark. That was the lead combat dev.

Everything that the devs wanted to put in place to counter the ballgroups, namely the sets that impact the groups or the skill modifications, not only did it have no effect on the Ballgroups but it strengthened the Bombers who became legion and do not even dare to attack the ballgroups.
I am not against the existence of Ballgroups but against their omnipotence.
I don't want to stop players from playing in guilds in Cyrodiil, but when they are unstoppable, it is very frustrating and the gaming experience becomes painful for most players.

So this debate between devs is very nice, but here is what we see:

- ballgroups use AoE without cap
- everytime a ballgroup arrives, lag also arrives
- in the Vengeance campaign, AOE limited to 3 = no Ballgroup, and no lag (but I don't know if it's related to that)

Of course I'm just a player and not a zos-dev (and they know all this much better than I do), but I've been playing this game in Cyrodiil for 11 years and I've seen things evolve

Now I'm ready to hear anything as long as cyrodiil becomes fun to play again.

MincMincMinc · April 3

Xarc wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

If ZOS gave us some customization, removed the silly AoE cap of 3, [...] I do think Vengeance has potential.

On the contrary, I think that the AOE cap at 3 is a very good thing, especially against ballgroups.
And it's likely that it also has a significant impact on lag.

I don't know if you played in ESO's early days or paid attention to the debates we had about AoE caps, but we know the following as per admitted by ZOS
Ballgroups benefited heavily from AoE caps

AoE caps had a negative impact on performance

AoE caps led to undesirable AvAvA play patterns

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/3621763

53:00 mark. That was the lead combat dev.

Everything that the devs wanted to put in place to counter the ballgroups, namely the sets that impact the groups or the skill modifications, not only did it have no effect on the Ballgroups but it strengthened the Bombers who became legion and do not even dare to attack the ballgroups.
I am not against the existence of Ballgroups but against their omnipotence.
I don't want to stop players from playing in guilds in Cyrodiil, but when they are unstoppable, it is very frustrating and the gaming experience becomes painful for most players.

So this debate between devs is very nice, but here is what we see:

- ballgroups use AoE without cap
- everytime a ballgroup arrives, lag also arrives
- in the Vengeance campaign, AOE limited to 3 = no Ballgroup, and no lag (but I don't know if it's related to that)

Of course I'm just a player and not a zos-dev (and they know all this much better than I do), but I've been playing this game in Cyrodiil for 11 years and I've seen things evolve

Now I'm ready to hear anything as long as cyrodiil becomes fun to play again.

Many moons ago there already was an aoecap test which failed. You have to think of aoe caps as a system like smart healing. Actually the answer is probably right there. We know that the engine doesnt handle aoe or positional calculations well. For smart healing or aoe caps you essentially have to use positional calculations and health pools to build up a que of players that should receive the damage/healing. Then prioritize and send out the appropriate effects.

The upside of damage is that it leads to players dying and calculations stopping. The downside of healing is that it leads to continued buildup of calculations. Most of the time during pointless light attack zerg spamming where nobody is making a move.

Should smart healing be a thing? Well why not both? Maybe not every skill needs smart healing. Give incentives for skills that don't utilize an automated costly system.
Should cross healing be a thing? Again, why not both? Make some skills work only on group members and some work on all allies. Maybe Resolving vigor heals you and 2 group members, and echoing vigor heals all allies for less.

LPapirius · April 3

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Please, please, please, DO NOT mandate any version of the vengeance mode on us.

My biggest fear is ZOS is putting all it's time and resources devoted to vengeance versions of PvP rather than making any effort to fix the actual Cyrodiil game mode we all got addicted to in the beginning. We don't need a new version of PvP. We need the old version to be fixed, tweaked or whatever you want to call it. We need RoA to be "monsters only" and for shield and heal stacking to be limited to only one instance of each skill. We DO NOT need a whole new game mode, that, IMO, was absolutely horrible in every way.

Why is ZOS focusing on a new game mode more than fixing the original game mode? .......I think the answer is obvious, but only ZOS knows for sure.

Vengeance is closer to the original game mode than live is. PVP in Cyrodiil was more like this before the One Tamriel patch. Vengeance IS an effort to fix the original game mode. Procrodiil is not the original game mode.

No, vengeance mode is NOTHING like the original game mode. It's a totally different game played on the same map.

Vengeance is very very close to the original cyrodil up until about 2016. The whole purpose was the scale of battles seen during vengeance. Crazy that Live is so far gone people thought 30 man keep fights was a "big fight"

No it wasn't. We had builds, weapon skills, and many other things every day since release up until vengeance.

LPapirius · April 3

Markytous wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.

It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.

If you decided you needed to follow the zerg and press some buttons, thats all cool. Meanwhile, people like me were making our own fun across the map, pressuring different resources, keeps and making plays on towns. If you find it boring, thats cool. Lag, ballgroups, bombs and blocktanks isn't for me tho. In otherwords, yes it was special in a good way objectively whether or not one decides to take a blind eye towards the server performance. Here comes the PVE strawman again!

It's not a strawman to point out that the majority of players swooning over the vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. That's just a fact. It can't be a straw man argument if it's true. There are less than a handful of PvP mains on here posting they think vengeance was anything other than a boring zerg fest with some potential. And none of them want to see anything other than the original version of Cyrodiil fixed. None of us want ZOS to abandon the original version of Cyrodiil.

Markytous · April 3

LPapirius wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.

It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.

If you decided you needed to follow the zerg and press some buttons, thats all cool. Meanwhile, people like me were making our own fun across the map, pressuring different resources, keeps and making plays on towns. If you find it boring, thats cool. Lag, ballgroups, bombs and blocktanks isn't for me tho. In otherwords, yes it was special in a good way objectively whether or not one decides to take a blind eye towards the server performance. Here comes the PVE strawman again!

It's not a strawman to point out that the majority of players swooning over the vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. That's just a fact. It can't be a straw man argument if it's true. There are less than a handful of PvP mains on here posting they think vengeance was anything other than a boring zerg fest with some potential. And none of them want to see anything other than the original version of Cyrodiil fixed. None of us want ZOS to abandon the original version of Cyrodiil.

What do you lose being able to dunk on more PVE players? Is it because in Vengeance you can't because you can't exploit the broken sets? I was dunking on people during Vengeance week and it felt great.

Top question is - Do "hardcore PVP advocates" (Not Deltia because he liked Vengeance) want laggy unpopulated Cyrodiil or do they want accessible popcapped 600 players Cyrodiil? Remember! Gatekeeping Cyrodiil is why its dead and has such a low number of participants. When does one let go of their source of ego gratification and say "Man, Cyrodiil needs an overhaul"?

Markytous · April 3

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

The problem is that ballgroups don't fight each other.. they fight casual and solo players inside of a trikeep, and farm AP. That's all they do. They contribute to nothing in their own faction. I've seen ballgroups use a scroll (even their own) as a source to AP farm. Rarely do I see them run the scroll back. They hold it as long as they can to lure people.

Ballgroups fight other ballgroups all the time. Sometimes they do it in GvG settings in places where you don't see them because they don't want a third party to interfere. Fighting against other ballgroups is the best way to practice so it is a staple of a lot of ballgroup runs.

Ballgroups using scrolls to bait people draws significant parts of an enemy alliance to them for prolonged periods of time. A good ballgroup can occupy the better part of a faction in their own backyard. Yet often players don't use that opportunity to take back territory and instead complain in zonechat.

Its hard to want to get out and play when the ballgroups trivialize all game mechanics around them. They're not playing ESO anymore basically. They cannot be slowed, they cannot be bombed or bursted, they cannot be sieged and they ultimately cannot be challenged. The wise words of Reggie Fils-Aimé "If its not fun, why bother?" echoing through those beautiful, lagging Cyrodiil mountains and forests.

LPapirius · April 3

Markytous wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.

It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.

If you decided you needed to follow the zerg and press some buttons, thats all cool. Meanwhile, people like me were making our own fun across the map, pressuring different resources, keeps and making plays on towns. If you find it boring, thats cool. Lag, ballgroups, bombs and blocktanks isn't for me tho. In otherwords, yes it was special in a good way objectively whether or not one decides to take a blind eye towards the server performance. Here comes the PVE strawman again!

It's not a strawman to point out that the majority of players swooning over the vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. That's just a fact. It can't be a straw man argument if it's true. There are less than a handful of PvP mains on here posting they think vengeance was anything other than a boring zerg fest with some potential. And none of them want to see anything other than the original version of Cyrodiil fixed. None of us want ZOS to abandon the original version of Cyrodiil.

What do you lose being able to dunk on more PVE players? Is it because in Vengeance you can't because you can't exploit the broken sets? I was dunking on people during Vengeance week and it felt great.

Top question is - Do "hardcore PVP advocates" (Not Deltia because he liked Vengeance) want laggy unpopulated Cyrodiil or do they want accessible popcapped 600 players Cyrodiil? Remember! Gatekeeping Cyrodiil is why its dead and has such a low number of participants. When does one let go of their source of ego gratification and say "Man, Cyrodiil needs an overhaul"?

Many factual inaccuracies in your post. Not the least of which is that Deltia doesn't play ESO anymore.

Joy_Division · April 3

Xarc wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

If ZOS gave us some customization, removed the silly AoE cap of 3, [...] I do think Vengeance has potential.

On the contrary, I think that the AOE cap at 3 is a very good thing, especially against ballgroups.
And it's likely that it also has a significant impact on lag.

I don't know if you played in ESO's early days or paid attention to the debates we had about AoE caps, but we know the following as per admitted by ZOS
Ballgroups benefited heavily from AoE caps

AoE caps had a negative impact on performance

AoE caps led to undesirable AvAvA play patterns

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/3621763

53:00 mark. That was the lead combat dev.

Everything that the devs wanted to put in place to counter the ballgroups, namely the sets that impact the groups or the skill modifications, not only did it have no effect on the Ballgroups but it strengthened the Bombers who became legion and do not even dare to attack the ballgroups.
I am not against the existence of Ballgroups but against their omnipotence.
I don't want to stop players from playing in guilds in Cyrodiil, but when they are unstoppable, it is very frustrating and the gaming experience becomes painful for most players.

So this debate between devs is very nice, but here is what we see:

- ballgroups use AoE without cap
- everytime a ballgroup arrives, lag also arrives
- in the Vengeance campaign, AOE limited to 3 = no Ballgroup, and no lag (but I don't know if it's related to that)

Of course I'm just a player and not a zos-dev (and they know all this much better than I do), but I've been playing this game in Cyrodiil for 11 years and I've seen things evolve

Now I'm ready to hear anything as long as cyrodiil becomes fun to play again.

This is a logical fallacy. You are equating one variable with Vengeance (the AoE cap of 3) with all of the consequences of Vengeance.

There were no ball groups in Vengeance because of all the other things Vengeance did - no stacking heals, no rush of agony set, no spam casting AoE shields, no snowtreaders, no 30% free damage mitigation from AoE, no major/minor force buffs, etc, etc., etc.

It also a logical fallacy that because Ballgroups flourish now without an AoE cap, the lack of an AoE cap must be the reason.

We know this wrong because Ballgroups were even stronger when ZOS had an AoE cap. The very name "ball group" became a dirty word in ESO was because they were so strong in 2014.

What was listed was not a debate from the devs. It was factual recognition of three years of data collected from Cyrodiil.
This isn't theoretical. We know this because we've already seen this, the devs already looked into this, and the devs have already told us flat out.

Markytous · April 3

LPapirius wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.

It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.

If you decided you needed to follow the zerg and press some buttons, thats all cool. Meanwhile, people like me were making our own fun across the map, pressuring different resources, keeps and making plays on towns. If you find it boring, thats cool. Lag, ballgroups, bombs and blocktanks isn't for me tho. In otherwords, yes it was special in a good way objectively whether or not one decides to take a blind eye towards the server performance. Here comes the PVE strawman again!

It's not a strawman to point out that the majority of players swooning over the vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. That's just a fact. It can't be a straw man argument if it's true. There are less than a handful of PvP mains on here posting they think vengeance was anything other than a boring zerg fest with some potential. And none of them want to see anything other than the original version of Cyrodiil fixed. None of us want ZOS to abandon the original version of Cyrodiil.

What do you lose being able to dunk on more PVE players? Is it because in Vengeance you can't because you can't exploit the broken sets? I was dunking on people during Vengeance week and it felt great.

Top question is - Do "hardcore PVP advocates" (Not Deltia because he liked Vengeance) want laggy unpopulated Cyrodiil or do they want accessible popcapped 600 players Cyrodiil? Remember! Gatekeeping Cyrodiil is why its dead and has such a low number of participants. When does one let go of their source of ego gratification and say "Man, Cyrodiil needs an overhaul"?

Many factual inaccuracies in your post. Not the least of which is that Deltia doesn't play ESO anymore.

You need to answer the question for any of subsequent text to matter. Deltia played and covered Vengeance in a video. Need a link?

Wallar333 · April 3

LPapirius wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.

It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.

If you decided you needed to follow the zerg and press some buttons, thats all cool. Meanwhile, people like me were making our own fun across the map, pressuring different resources, keeps and making plays on towns. If you find it boring, thats cool. Lag, ballgroups, bombs and blocktanks isn't for me tho. In otherwords, yes it was special in a good way objectively whether or not one decides to take a blind eye towards the server performance. Here comes the PVE strawman again!

It's not a strawman to point out that the majority of players swooning over the vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. That's just a fact. It can't be a straw man argument if it's true. There are less than a handful of PvP mains on here posting they think vengeance was anything other than a boring zerg fest with some potential. And none of them want to see anything other than the original version of Cyrodiil fixed. None of us want ZOS to abandon the original version of Cyrodiil.

Well, many of those *PVE* players youre mentioning, are FORCED to play just PVE, cos PVP is simply unplayable **** in current state. I agree that it would be great if ZOS manages to FIX old cyro, but they didnt managed to fix it for almost a decade now, so i dont expect that they will magicaly manage now. Builds are a verry important part of this game, thats without a doubt, but the truth ALSO is that builds are causing maybe more like a half of this mess, cos it boosts ONLY ballgroups who are able to stack crazy amount of buffs from many sets, and THAT in combination to crazy crosshealing/shielding is literally killing this games PVP completely.

Also MOST, maybe more than 2/3 new players just leave the game, cos they have ZERO chance in PVP now. Even in low level BGs or under 50lvl cyro, cos only veteran player noobs are playing their own **** there, ruining experience for newbies and drowning this games future in the deep ****. Thats should be MAINLY focused, cos without new players this game would die for sure, you can already see that almost only 2000CP+ veterans are playing cyro, and those who are not playing/enjoying ballgroups wont stay there for long, theyll usually do some dailies and they go off, this wont keep this games pvp alive for sure.

Sets causes the biggest problem in this games PVP, overall mechanics is just VERRY bad, and in combination to sets its incredible problem. This games PVP needs to get rid of ANY buff, especially group buff bonuses from sets and also ANY proc sets, keeping just sets which provides benefits only for those who wear them, and also BLOCKING class passive, at least those which are buffing groups, as well as reducing healing/shielding in PVP by at least 15% more, and BLOCKING group shielding completely. That could MAYBE save this games PVP, and make it playable. But another problem for new players, is CP and game experience, theyll wouldnt stand a chance still, so most of them wont play it anyway EVEN if this happens. So CP is just another problem, cos as i mentioned multiple times, age category who likes games like this and which plays them, is around 30yo, were simply old to grind so much, which leads many ppl to leave, cos they wont have time to exp CP.

So fixing old cyro STILL wouldnt solve ALL the problems anyway. I would focus on making a new campaign playable for everyone, cos old cyro would ALWAYS be playable only for veterans, whatever ZOS do, cos of CP. Even if they FIX ALL other things, this would still be a problem for way too many ppl. Few veterans wont save this game, it needs new ones. For having a chance at least in old cyro, you need at least 1200 CP, which is around like 1 000 in-game hours, and i can assure you that most ppl around 30yo wouldnt grind that, theyll rather leave the game. While also if theyll see the overall state of this games pvp, most of them wouldnt even see any reason to grind it, cos it sucks no matter what.

Old cyro can be fixed only by what i mentioned and possibly some other things, but it wont solve the overall dying PVP problem still, cos it wont help new players still, while ALSO if that happens, there would be literally a war between community members
There would ALWAYS be ppl who would want proc sets/buffs and crazy healing/shielding back. So why making such a hard decision ? ZOS can easily create a new campaign as i and few others suggested, and problem solved. Also vengance could be used as a test server from time to time, if ZOS would need to try something. Keeping old cyro for veterans, and trying to fix it AFTER the main problem would be solved, which is giving a new players, and the WHOLE community a chance to play a pure PVP without sets, guild/world skill lines, class passives crazy healing/shielding and OP ballgroups. Its worth to try it at least, maybe it wont work, but no one would ever know if ZOS wont try this.

LPapirius · April 4

Markytous wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.

It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.

If you decided you needed to follow the zerg and press some buttons, thats all cool. Meanwhile, people like me were making our own fun across the map, pressuring different resources, keeps and making plays on towns. If you find it boring, thats cool. Lag, ballgroups, bombs and blocktanks isn't for me tho. In otherwords, yes it was special in a good way objectively whether or not one decides to take a blind eye towards the server performance. Here comes the PVE strawman again!

It's not a strawman to point out that the majority of players swooning over the vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. That's just a fact. It can't be a straw man argument if it's true. There are less than a handful of PvP mains on here posting they think vengeance was anything other than a boring zerg fest with some potential. And none of them want to see anything other than the original version of Cyrodiil fixed. None of us want ZOS to abandon the original version of Cyrodiil.

What do you lose being able to dunk on more PVE players? Is it because in Vengeance you can't because you can't exploit the broken sets? I was dunking on people during Vengeance week and it felt great.

Top question is - Do "hardcore PVP advocates" (Not Deltia because he liked Vengeance) want laggy unpopulated Cyrodiil or do they want accessible popcapped 600 players Cyrodiil? Remember! Gatekeeping Cyrodiil is why its dead and has such a low number of participants. When does one let go of their source of ego gratification and say "Man, Cyrodiil needs an overhaul"?

Many factual inaccuracies in your post. Not the least of which is that Deltia doesn't play ESO anymore.

You need to answer the question for any of subsequent text to matter. Deltia played and covered Vengeance in a video. Need a link?

I'm wondering why you didn't post the link already. Here are a couple links for you.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/technology/nazara-tech-unit-buys-us-based-gaming-content-firm-deltias-gaming-for-rs-7-5-crore/articleshow/112313058.cms?from=mdr

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/670215/another-day-and-another-content-creator-moves-on-a-shout-out-to-deltia/p2

Deltia sold his website to Nazura last year. I suppose there is a possibility he's still creating content for Nazura, but he doesn't own a youtube channel or have a website or, as far as I know, even stream ESO anymore.

So ya, lets see your link please.

LPapirius · April 4

Markytous wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.

It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.

If you decided you needed to follow the zerg and press some buttons, thats all cool. Meanwhile, people like me were making our own fun across the map, pressuring different resources, keeps and making plays on towns. If you find it boring, thats cool. Lag, ballgroups, bombs and blocktanks isn't for me tho. In otherwords, yes it was special in a good way objectively whether or not one decides to take a blind eye towards the server performance. Here comes the PVE strawman again!

It's not a strawman to point out that the majority of players swooning over the vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. That's just a fact. It can't be a straw man argument if it's true. There are less than a handful of PvP mains on here posting they think vengeance was anything other than a boring zerg fest with some potential. And none of them want to see anything other than the original version of Cyrodiil fixed. None of us want ZOS to abandon the original version of Cyrodiil.

What do you lose being able to dunk on more PVE players? Is it because in Vengeance you can't because you can't exploit the broken sets? I was dunking on people during Vengeance week and it felt great.

Top question is - Do "hardcore PVP advocates" (Not Deltia because he liked Vengeance) want laggy unpopulated Cyrodiil or do they want accessible popcapped 600 players Cyrodiil? Remember! Gatekeeping Cyrodiil is why its dead and has such a low number of participants. When does one let go of their source of ego gratification and say "Man, Cyrodiil needs an overhaul"?

Many factual inaccuracies in your post. Not the least of which is that Deltia doesn't play ESO anymore.

You need to answer the question for any of subsequent text to matter. Deltia played and covered Vengeance in a video. Need a link?

Ah, well, I did manage to find this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na8VI-a39Lk&ab_channel=Deltia%27sGaming

So it looks like Deltia did in fact play some vengeance. I'd encourage you to watch the video several times and take to heart what he has to say about it. My sentiments match his exactly. And his comments in the video run contrary to most of the assertions you have made about the vengeance mode.

I am now a bit confused though about what's going on with Deltia. He did sell the rights to his website last year. But this video sure looks like he's representing himself, not Nazura. So don't know what to say about that. Maybe the deal fell through for some reason. Or maybe Nazura is paying Deltia to continue to produce content. ESO certainly isn't his main focus anymore if you look at deltiasgaming.com.

Do you have any links to anything eso related from Deltia in the last six months other than what I linked to by chance?

blktauna · April 4

LPapirius wrote: »

It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.

I had the completely opposite experience. I know my 3 classes well and had a blast playing them in Vengence. I would like nothing more than a version of it offered up as a regular campaign.

It's not a strawman to point out that the majority of players swooning over the vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. That's just a fact. It can't be a straw man argument if it's true. There are less than a handful of PvP mains on here posting they think vengeance was anything other than a boring zerg fest with some potential. And none of them want to see anything other than the original version of Cyrodiil fixed. None of us want ZOS to abandon the original version of Cyrodiil.

It is nothing like fact and It might be a good idea to only speak for yourself.

I've been in pvp since 2017 and this was the best time I've had since those long gone days.
No cheese, no broken BS, just you and your class skills against others and theirs. I don't crutch on sets so it was no big deal to use what I usually use most of the time anyways (class skills).

I had fights from 4v1 to giant zergs and I enjoyed every one of them. Everyone was killable, ttk was longer, strategy mattered, siege mattered, and it was a breath of fresh air.

I'm also not seeing anyone demanding GH get removed. This is not a zero sum game, Everyone can have what they like.

(former emperor)

Karmen · April 4

I dont have enough cp to play in cp cyrodiil, but ravenwatch is totally dead. I dont have fun with battleground (i prefere soloing)

so, gimme vengeance back please, it was really fun, at least i can play.

Markytous · April 4

LPapirius wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.

It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.

If you decided you needed to follow the zerg and press some buttons, thats all cool. Meanwhile, people like me were making our own fun across the map, pressuring different resources, keeps and making plays on towns. If you find it boring, thats cool. Lag, ballgroups, bombs and blocktanks isn't for me tho. In otherwords, yes it was special in a good way objectively whether or not one decides to take a blind eye towards the server performance. Here comes the PVE strawman again!

It's not a strawman to point out that the majority of players swooning over the vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. That's just a fact. It can't be a straw man argument if it's true. There are less than a handful of PvP mains on here posting they think vengeance was anything other than a boring zerg fest with some potential. And none of them want to see anything other than the original version of Cyrodiil fixed. None of us want ZOS to abandon the original version of Cyrodiil.

What do you lose being able to dunk on more PVE players? Is it because in Vengeance you can't because you can't exploit the broken sets? I was dunking on people during Vengeance week and it felt great.

Top question is - Do "hardcore PVP advocates" (Not Deltia because he liked Vengeance) want laggy unpopulated Cyrodiil or do they want accessible popcapped 600 players Cyrodiil? Remember! Gatekeeping Cyrodiil is why its dead and has such a low number of participants. When does one let go of their source of ego gratification and say "Man, Cyrodiil needs an overhaul"?

Many factual inaccuracies in your post. Not the least of which is that Deltia doesn't play ESO anymore.

You need to answer the question for any of subsequent text to matter. Deltia played and covered Vengeance in a video. Need a link?

Ah, well, I did manage to find this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na8VI-a39Lk&ab_channel=Deltia%27sGaming

So it looks like Deltia did in fact play some vengeance. I'd encourage you to watch the video several times and take to heart what he has to say about it. My sentiments match his exactly. And his comments in the video run contrary to most of the assertions you have made about the vengeance mode.

I am now a bit confused though about what's going on with Deltia. He did sell the rights to his website last year. But this video sure looks like he's representing himself, not Nazura. So don't know what to say about that. Maybe the deal fell through for some reason. Or maybe Nazura is paying Deltia to continue to produce content. ESO certainly isn't his main focus anymore if you look at deltiasgaming.com.

Do you have any links to anything eso related from Deltia in the last six months other than what I linked to by chance?

You watch it again. He said he had fun with it. It wasn't all negative like you.