MincMincMinc wrote: »

darvaria wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Yeah I tried to go back to Blackreach after really enjoying my time in Vengeance, and I didn't last 15 minutes. I mean I wasn't having fun before, but it took Vengeance to make me realize just how *much* I wasn't having fun in the current Cory.

I'm seeing this a lot ..

. it took Vengeance to make me realize just how *much* I wasn't having fun in the current Cory



I hope ZOS takes note. You do have one of those key word analyzer for market research don't you? If not, you need one so you can identify recurring trends.

People somehow cant see this and want to go back to proc dlc soup. I see the complaints about oh half my skills are useless. Well first off, you dont know what you are doing if any skill was useless on your bar. Second, you go on live and half the skills on your bar are only there for the passives they give anyways...... Whats the difference other than the server doesn't need to factor those stat changes in?

Even with a little imagination just think if they kept working on vengeance and flushed out the other skill lines and passives. Then added back other systems like enchants, mundus, food. That would probably have minimal performance differences, but huge in terms of build diversity. Down the road slowly introducing performative sets back in. Maybe rework rewards for the worthy or the towns to sell this pvp certified gear.

I agree. There's potential there.

I played for about ten minutes last night. I just logged off when I saw an organized group just bully and plow through a "Faction's" line of defense (i.e., maybe 25 people) at Ash Milegate.

I don't think they can do anything that will make the player base happy. I think everyone should take a trip down memory lane in the forums at look at all the complaints from years past. The complaints have gone from "All this game is good for is zerg, zerg, zerg. There's no room for individuality or small scale" to "This game is too unbalanced and now groups of 12 can beat groups of 20" and everything in between. This game is played by too many emotional people that will never be happy no matter what. Now there are calls for making vengeance permanent? LOL.... Give me a break.

aetherix8 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Even with a little imagination just think if they kept working on vengeance and flushed out the other skill lines and passives. Then added back other systems like enchants, mundus, food. That would probably have minimal performance differences, but huge in terms of build diversity. Down the road slowly introducing performative sets back in. Maybe rework rewards for the worthy or the towns to sell this pvp certified gear.

I’m all in favor of a campaign like Vengeance but enhanced, this test version was too oversimplified and wouldn’t be fun in the long term.
Then, how much stuff we can enable (passives, morphs, more siege etc) without gutting the performance? It would need to be tested first cause in the end we want both: smooth performance and fun PvP mode (as in Player v Player, and not Proc v Proc).

Right this is where they would need to keep the test running. My proposal would be to use this as a replacement for the u50 and nocp servers. Basically anyone low level and lowcp like 500 or 700 and under would only be allowed into the vengeance campaign.

• Perfect fair learning environment
• With a functional populated new player pvp area we may see NEW PVPERS for once. u50 campaign is desolate and does not function
• With a continuous server zos can test and implement as they please. Which allows them to introduce one system per patch and see the results.

Longterm we could see what is more preferred and functional. Maybe in a year or so the majority of the systems are reworked and you can hardly tell the difference gameplay wise.

Vengeance needs to return. Now that ZOS has seen that people are interested in having the awesome large-scale fights back where everyone matters, they have a compelling motivation to get in there and work through skills/passives for us to work with to make it even better. I miss Vengeance so much. It was such a relief not having to re-proc Rallying Cry every 15 seconds just to be viable in PVP. No crutches, no blocktanks, no no-skill bombers (though we need catapults do deal with large groups!). The chase for FOMO power through sets over time has wrecked PVP - in my memory, Viper Veli, Tremorscale, Sloads, Unleashed Terror, Eternal Vigor, Venomous Smite, Crimson Twilight, Malacath's Band, Deadlands Assassin+Ashen Grip, Vatesh 2H/Staffs, Rallying Cry, Wretched Vitality and many many more. Power creep that has broken the game. Not to mention the fact that Live Cyrodiil lags in the presence of maybe 50 players when Vengeance could support 200-300 before latency started to bigtime hit. I will not be returning to Live Cyrodiil.

One of the best things about Vengeance was that, because people were having so much fun, it was pop-locked during most of the days which made it so Imperial City couldn't be queued out of. So, Vengeance fixed not just Combat Bug, but also made Imperial City queue-out cowards unable to escape and finally Sigils of Imperial Retreat had value again! It fixed SO MUCH and I am optimistic that we've only just begun fixing Cyrodiil. As for those who are upset about the fact that they can't "X" people? Maybe they should figure out why. I was able to 1vX in Vengeance Cyrodiil as a Dragonknight and it feels as it should - a unique moment of glory that you can't make a YOUTUBE CAREER out of lmao The fact that you know each player has equalized stats means each one of those players could have stopped you. More satisfying than Live where oof I just proc'd so good luck.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

I don't think they can do anything that will make the player base happy. I think everyone should take a trip down memory lane in the forums at look at all the complaints from years past. The complaints have gone from "All this game is good for is zerg, zerg, zerg. There's no room for individuality or small scale" to "This game is too unbalanced and now groups of 12 can beat groups of 20" and everything in between. This game is played by too many emotional people that will never be happy no matter what. Now there are calls for making vengeance permanent? LOL.... Give me a break.

We don;t need top be happy as in PvP is perfect, in the just what I want way. All ZOS needs to do is provide an environment in which many different type of players can find something they enjoy about PvP and feel like they can meaningfully contribute.

Sure, we complained a lot about the early days of Cyordiil. It was zergy because the pop caps were so high. But any of the old 1vXers would say that was the best time to 1vX. We had ball groups being ball groups, but what they could do with 24 was not as powerful/disruptive with what they can do with 12 today. We had broken builds and bad balance, but also those epic fights such that even "casual" players would consistently have fights in which they could get kills and weren't constantly matched-up with sweats who would take their lunch money. In short, there was something for everyone. Even if it wasn't everything we wanted.

I would say much was the same about Vengeance. There were a lot of things I would do differently: the balance was not there, the AoE cap of 3 is silly, weapons were pointless, etc. So, yeah, complaints. BUT, the test was still fun because it did bring PvP elements that were enjoyable (epic fights, constant fights, no unkillable builds, etc.) that do not exist on Live and, importantly, provided many opportunities for "casual' players to do things and feel as if they are making a contribution, even if it is just zerging down the next castle. I am not fully happy with everything about Vengeance, but I would be happy to play it.

I respect your thought and opinions. The test was fun for a short time. Many people like Cyrodiil just the way it is, or with a few tweaks. Stuck in combat, free pull sets, healing being issues that could be worked out. But gutting Cyrodiil so casuals can feel like they have an impact would not be good. People would start asking for a difficulty slider for Cyrodiil too.

reazea wrote: »

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Any version of the vengeance campaign goes live on a mandatory basis and it will be the end of Cyrodiil PvP in ESO. The only people who liked it were those who hate PvP in the first place.

Personally I think its the end now. People saw what PvP could look like in Vengeance and are not coming back. 10-15 EP on GH this morning, Thats it. By 4:00pm est when it usually starts picking up we were down to 4. Thats it.

Its dead. The map had not moved or changed in 6 hours. Im sort of a die hard but even I have to admit its done. Said my goodbye and left.

Is Vengeance some sort of answer, that I dont know, but I know it cant go on like it is.

Performance in Cyrodiil the last two days has been notably worse than prior to the mandated week of vengeance mode too. Anyone else notice this or wonder why?

I've noticed that overall performance in live Cyrodiil is worse than prior to the vengeance camp. I don't wonder why though.

Please, please, please, DO NOT mandate any version of the vengeance mode on us.

My biggest fear is ZOS is putting all it's time and resources devoted to vengeance versions of PvP rather than making any effort to fix the actual Cyrodiil game mode we all got addicted to in the beginning. We don't need a new version of PvP. We need the old version to be fixed, tweaked or whatever you want to call it. We need RoA to be "monsters only" and for shield and heal stacking to be limited to only one instance of each skill. We DO NOT need a whole new game mode, that, IMO, was absolutely horrible in every way.

Why is ZOS focusing on a new game mode more than fixing the original game mode? .......I think the answer is obvious, but only ZOS knows for sure.

Markytous wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Please, please, please, DO NOT mandate any version of the vengeance mode on us.

My biggest fear is ZOS is putting all it's time and resources devoted to vengeance versions of PvP rather than making any effort to fix the actual Cyrodiil game mode we all got addicted to in the beginning. We don't need a new version of PvP. We need the old version to be fixed, tweaked or whatever you want to call it. We need RoA to be "monsters only" and for shield and heal stacking to be limited to only one instance of each skill. We DO NOT need a whole new game mode, that, IMO, was absolutely horrible in every way.

Why is ZOS focusing on a new game mode more than fixing the original game mode? .......I think the answer is obvious, but only ZOS knows for sure.

Vengeance is closer to the original game mode than live is. PVP in Cyrodiil was more like this before the One Tamriel patch. Vengeance IS an effort to fix the original game mode. Procrodiil is not the original game mode.

No, vengeance mode is NOTHING like the original game mode. It's a totally different game played on the same map.

Stridig wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

I don't think they can do anything that will make the player base happy. I think everyone should take a trip down memory lane in the forums at look at all the complaints from years past. The complaints have gone from "All this game is good for is zerg, zerg, zerg. There's no room for individuality or small scale" to "This game is too unbalanced and now groups of 12 can beat groups of 20" and everything in between. This game is played by too many emotional people that will never be happy no matter what. Now there are calls for making vengeance permanent? LOL.... Give me a break.

We don;t need top be happy as in PvP is perfect, in the just what I want way. All ZOS needs to do is provide an environment in which many different type of players can find something they enjoy about PvP and feel like they can meaningfully contribute.

Sure, we complained a lot about the early days of Cyordiil. It was zergy because the pop caps were so high. But any of the old 1vXers would say that was the best time to 1vX. We had ball groups being ball groups, but what they could do with 24 was not as powerful/disruptive with what they can do with 12 today. We had broken builds and bad balance, but also those epic fights such that even "casual" players would consistently have fights in which they could get kills and weren't constantly matched-up with sweats who would take their lunch money. In short, there was something for everyone. Even if it wasn't everything we wanted.

I would say much was the same about Vengeance. There were a lot of things I would do differently: the balance was not there, the AoE cap of 3 is silly, weapons were pointless, etc. So, yeah, complaints. BUT, the test was still fun because it did bring PvP elements that were enjoyable (epic fights, constant fights, no unkillable builds, etc.) that do not exist on Live and, importantly, provided many opportunities for "casual' players to do things and feel as if they are making a contribution, even if it is just zerging down the next castle. I am not fully happy with everything about Vengeance, but I would be happy to play it.

I respect your thought and opinions. The test was fun for a short time. Many people like Cyrodiil just the way it is, or with a few tweaks. Stuck in combat, free pull sets, healing being issues that could be worked out. But gutting Cyrodiil so casuals can feel like they have an impact would not be good. People would start asking for a difficulty slider for Cyrodiil too.

Funny, most of the top tier pvpers would counter your statement. Having dlc cheese carry proc and pull sets is the only reason casuals are impactful. For me seeing someone say they couldn't 1v2 or 1vX in vengeance just tells me where they stand mechanically.

Take vengeance and give some stat choices through rebalanced: enchants, mundus, sets, etc. you will quickly see who is suddenly a real casual.

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Please, please, please, DO NOT mandate any version of the vengeance mode on us.

My biggest fear is ZOS is putting all it's time and resources devoted to vengeance versions of PvP rather than making any effort to fix the actual Cyrodiil game mode we all got addicted to in the beginning. We don't need a new version of PvP. We need the old version to be fixed, tweaked or whatever you want to call it. We need RoA to be "monsters only" and for shield and heal stacking to be limited to only one instance of each skill. We DO NOT need a whole new game mode, that, IMO, was absolutely horrible in every way.

Why is ZOS focusing on a new game mode more than fixing the original game mode? .......I think the answer is obvious, but only ZOS knows for sure.

Vengeance is closer to the original game mode than live is. PVP in Cyrodiil was more like this before the One Tamriel patch. Vengeance IS an effort to fix the original game mode. Procrodiil is not the original game mode.

No, vengeance mode is NOTHING like the original game mode. It's a totally different game played on the same map.

Vengeance is very very close to the original cyrodil up until about 2016. The whole purpose was the scale of battles seen during vengeance. Crazy that Live is so far gone people thought 30 man keep fights was a "big fight"

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

I don't think they can do anything that will make the player base happy. I think everyone should take a trip down memory lane in the forums at look at all the complaints from years past. The complaints have gone from "All this game is good for is zerg, zerg, zerg. There's no room for individuality or small scale" to "This game is too unbalanced and now groups of 12 can beat groups of 20" and everything in between. This game is played by too many emotional people that will never be happy no matter what. Now there are calls for making vengeance permanent? LOL.... Give me a break.

We don;t need top be happy as in PvP is perfect, in the just what I want way. All ZOS needs to do is provide an environment in which many different type of players can find something they enjoy about PvP and feel like they can meaningfully contribute.

Sure, we complained a lot about the early days of Cyordiil. It was zergy because the pop caps were so high. But any of the old 1vXers would say that was the best time to 1vX. We had ball groups being ball groups, but what they could do with 24 was not as powerful/disruptive with what they can do with 12 today. We had broken builds and bad balance, but also those epic fights such that even "casual" players would consistently have fights in which they could get kills and weren't constantly matched-up with sweats who would take their lunch money. In short, there was something for everyone. Even if it wasn't everything we wanted.

I would say much was the same about Vengeance. There were a lot of things I would do differently: the balance was not there, the AoE cap of 3 is silly, weapons were pointless, etc. So, yeah, complaints. BUT, the test was still fun because it did bring PvP elements that were enjoyable (epic fights, constant fights, no unkillable builds, etc.) that do not exist on Live and, importantly, provided many opportunities for "casual' players to do things and feel as if they are making a contribution, even if it is just zerging down the next castle. I am not fully happy with everything about Vengeance, but I would be happy to play it.

I respect your thought and opinions. The test was fun for a short time. Many people like Cyrodiil just the way it is, or with a few tweaks. Stuck in combat, free pull sets, healing being issues that could be worked out. But gutting Cyrodiil so casuals can feel like they have an impact would not be good. People would start asking for a difficulty slider for Cyrodiil too.

Funny, most of the top tier pvpers would counter your statement. Having dlc cheese carry proc and pull sets is the only reason casuals are impactful. For me seeing someone say they couldn't 1v2 or 1vX in vengeance just tells me where they stand mechanically.

Take vengeance and give some stat choices through rebalanced: enchants, mundus, sets, etc. you will quickly see who is suddenly a real casual.

I only RP as a top tier player. Also, most people who claim to be top tier PvPers were outed as frauds during vengeance.

Stridig wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

I don't think they can do anything that will make the player base happy. I think everyone should take a trip down memory lane in the forums at look at all the complaints from years past. The complaints have gone from "All this game is good for is zerg, zerg, zerg. There's no room for individuality or small scale" to "This game is too unbalanced and now groups of 12 can beat groups of 20" and everything in between. This game is played by too many emotional people that will never be happy no matter what. Now there are calls for making vengeance permanent? LOL.... Give me a break.

We don;t need top be happy as in PvP is perfect, in the just what I want way. All ZOS needs to do is provide an environment in which many different type of players can find something they enjoy about PvP and feel like they can meaningfully contribute.

Sure, we complained a lot about the early days of Cyordiil. It was zergy because the pop caps were so high. But any of the old 1vXers would say that was the best time to 1vX. We had ball groups being ball groups, but what they could do with 24 was not as powerful/disruptive with what they can do with 12 today. We had broken builds and bad balance, but also those epic fights such that even "casual" players would consistently have fights in which they could get kills and weren't constantly matched-up with sweats who would take their lunch money. In short, there was something for everyone. Even if it wasn't everything we wanted.

I would say much was the same about Vengeance. There were a lot of things I would do differently: the balance was not there, the AoE cap of 3 is silly, weapons were pointless, etc. So, yeah, complaints. BUT, the test was still fun because it did bring PvP elements that were enjoyable (epic fights, constant fights, no unkillable builds, etc.) that do not exist on Live and, importantly, provided many opportunities for "casual' players to do things and feel as if they are making a contribution, even if it is just zerging down the next castle. I am not fully happy with everything about Vengeance, but I would be happy to play it.

I respect your thought and opinions. The test was fun for a short time. Many people like Cyrodiil just the way it is, or with a few tweaks. Stuck in combat, free pull sets, healing being issues that could be worked out. But gutting Cyrodiil so casuals can feel like they have an impact would not be good. People would start asking for a difficulty slider for Cyrodiil too.

Funny, most of the top tier pvpers would counter your statement. Having dlc cheese carry proc and pull sets is the only reason casuals are impactful. For me seeing someone say they couldn't 1v2 or 1vX in vengeance just tells me where they stand mechanically.

Take vengeance and give some stat choices through rebalanced: enchants, mundus, sets, etc. you will quickly see who is suddenly a real casual.

I only RP as a top tier player. Also, most people who claim to be top tier PvPers were outed as frauds during vengeance.

There were only really one class that could reliably do more than 1v1 and that was NB. Not that it was impossible on other classes, but other than that Vengeance had very little room for expressing skill. Claiming sets (or whatever excuse one need to feel better about themselves) is the major source of someone's success is some insane coping mechanism. Sure there are sets and other things that could use some rebalance but proper itemization is as much of a skill/knowledge as using the "wrong gear" is a skill issue as well.

Most people I see saying things like "Hehe these players aren´t actually as good as they think there were, they were just carried by sets" would say this while simultaneously sitting in the 50-100 man blobs Vengeance allowed and outnumber said people they complain about. I don´t care how people play in Cyrodiil, it´s their business, but the amount of excuses and mental gymnastic people manage to come up with is nothing less than top tier entertainment.

I personally found Vengeance bland/boring. I hope the data zos could gather can be used to improve performance, increase population without removing/restricting the version of Cyrodiil we currently have.

Stridig wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

I don't think they can do anything that will make the player base happy. I think everyone should take a trip down memory lane in the forums at look at all the complaints from years past. The complaints have gone from "All this game is good for is zerg, zerg, zerg. There's no room for individuality or small scale" to "This game is too unbalanced and now groups of 12 can beat groups of 20" and everything in between. This game is played by too many emotional people that will never be happy no matter what. Now there are calls for making vengeance permanent? LOL.... Give me a break.

We don;t need top be happy as in PvP is perfect, in the just what I want way. All ZOS needs to do is provide an environment in which many different type of players can find something they enjoy about PvP and feel like they can meaningfully contribute.

Sure, we complained a lot about the early days of Cyordiil. It was zergy because the pop caps were so high. But any of the old 1vXers would say that was the best time to 1vX. We had ball groups being ball groups, but what they could do with 24 was not as powerful/disruptive with what they can do with 12 today. We had broken builds and bad balance, but also those epic fights such that even "casual" players would consistently have fights in which they could get kills and weren't constantly matched-up with sweats who would take their lunch money. In short, there was something for everyone. Even if it wasn't everything we wanted.

I would say much was the same about Vengeance. There were a lot of things I would do differently: the balance was not there, the AoE cap of 3 is silly, weapons were pointless, etc. So, yeah, complaints. BUT, the test was still fun because it did bring PvP elements that were enjoyable (epic fights, constant fights, no unkillable builds, etc.) that do not exist on Live and, importantly, provided many opportunities for "casual' players to do things and feel as if they are making a contribution, even if it is just zerging down the next castle. I am not fully happy with everything about Vengeance, but I would be happy to play it.

I respect your thought and opinions. The test was fun for a short time. Many people like Cyrodiil just the way it is, or with a few tweaks. Stuck in combat, free pull sets, healing being issues that could be worked out. But gutting Cyrodiil so casuals can feel like they have an impact would not be good. People would start asking for a difficulty slider for Cyrodiil too.

Funny, most of the top tier pvpers would counter your statement. Having dlc cheese carry proc and pull sets is the only reason casuals are impactful. For me seeing someone say they couldn't 1v2 or 1vX in vengeance just tells me where they stand mechanically.

Take vengeance and give some stat choices through rebalanced: enchants, mundus, sets, etc. you will quickly see who is suddenly a real casual.

I only RP as a top tier player. Also, most people who claim to be top tier PvPers were outed as frauds during vengeance.

my point exactly.

CatoUnchained wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Please, please, please, DO NOT mandate any version of the vengeance mode on us.

My biggest fear is ZOS is putting all it's time and resources devoted to vengeance versions of PvP rather than making any effort to fix the actual Cyrodiil game mode we all got addicted to in the beginning. We don't need a new version of PvP. We need the old version to be fixed, tweaked or whatever you want to call it. We need RoA to be "monsters only" and for shield and heal stacking to be limited to only one instance of each skill. We DO NOT need a whole new game mode, that, IMO, was absolutely horrible in every way.

Why is ZOS focusing on a new game mode more than fixing the original game mode? .......I think the answer is obvious, but only ZOS knows for sure.

Vengeance is closer to the original game mode than live is. PVP in Cyrodiil was more like this before the One Tamriel patch. Vengeance IS an effort to fix the original game mode. Procrodiil is not the original game mode.

No, vengeance mode is NOTHING like the original game mode. It's a totally different game played on the same map.

Vengeance is very very close to the original cyrodil up until about 2016. The whole purpose was the scale of battles seen during vengeance. Crazy that Live is so far gone people thought 30 man keep fights was a "big fight"

Except it wasn't. I've been a PvP main since 2015 after about a year of PvE only. Once I finally dove into PvP I never looked back. The only reason I PvE since 2015 is to get gear and resources to PvP.

The only thing that was similar to original live Cyrodiil PvP and vengeance was the number of players in the camp. That's where the similarities begin and end. No theory crafting. No weapon skills. Very limited siege ability. No advantage or disadvantage to grouping. Almost nothing about vengeance was similar to original Cyro PvP. That's why I think the most vehement support for vengeance is coming from PvE'rs. I've only seen a couple PvP mains on here praising THE POTENTIAL of a version of vengeance mode. Even the PvP mains are saying it was bad, but had potential.

You realize the build portion was turned off right? Do I have to rehash the reasons why longterm financially zos would have to bring back sets and consumables? No reason we should expect the vengeance test as a final product, longterm zos would slowly add back in systems checking for performance as they go. Mundus, passives, skilllines, enchants, potions, sets, etc. With the new pvp pve design system split, now they could also do the reverse and take live game and start removing system by system.

Or do both where they have a new player friendly vengeance campaign and then the greyhost 700cp+ only Live campaign. With the running vengeance campaign they can continue testing while also bringing in new pvp players for the first time in maybe 7 years.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

There were only really one class that could reliably do more than 1v1 and that was NB. Not that it was impossible on other classes, but other than that Vengeance had very little room for expressing skill.

I'd agree with this. I was able to 1v2/3 a few times on my Templar by rolling a lot and pebble-humping (I know, I know, I'm amazing ) but by and large, there just wasn't enough range in possible action for skill to shine enough to say I really outplayed anyone. By and large, Vengeance was just about who got the drop or had buddies, which was fun in its novelty to me but very, very limiting.

There's so much more going on, far far faster, and with greater disparity and variance in current PvP than was on display in Vengeance, that while I absolutely understand the warm fuzzy feeling people felt as they killed someone whose @name is usually a death wish to engage and even kinda felt it myself a few times, it's something of a false positive. Winning a race on a slow single speed go-cart where you just smash the gas pedal is only so much of a victory imo.

As Mangle mentioned, the class kits weren't balanced in the slightest either; something ZOS emphasized heavily in response whenever it was brought up. So, I have a hard time saying skill was truly highlighted in Vengeance, when to me it was pretty marginalized by the lack of how far play could take you.