PvP self heals are strong enough to use Blood for Blood as a spammable.

dark_hunterxmg · March 30

The popularity of this skill alone clearly illustrates how strong solo heals are in PvP. Players use this skill as their main spammable while tanking damage. ~2200 health cost per second and health bars barely move.

xylena_lazarow · March 30

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

The popularity of this skill alone clearly illustrates how strong solo heals are in PvP. Players use this skill as their main spammable while tanking damage. ~2200 health cost per second and health bars barely move.

Self heals aren't the problem and never have been, it's comp groups with minmax heal stacking.

dark_hunterxmg · March 30

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

The popularity of this skill alone clearly illustrates how strong solo heals are in PvP. Players use this skill as their main spammable while tanking damage. ~2200 health cost per second and health bars barely move.

Self heals aren't the problem and never have been, it's comp groups with minmax heal stacking.

Self heals are indeed a problem and it's right now. Vengeance has shown us that. Cross heals are a problem too, but that's a different topic.

Oblivion_Protocol · March 30

With the exception of Warden, self heals aren’t a problem for any class. The issue you might be thinking of is how tanky most classes can get while still doing truckloads of damage. In the grand scheme of things, 2200 health is not that much. You can heal through that with ease.

dark_hunterxmg · March 30

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

With the exception of Warden, self heals aren’t a problem for any class. The issue you might be thinking of is how tanky most classes can get while still doing truckloads of damage. In the grand scheme of things, 2200 health is not that much. You can heal through that with ease.

2200 health on its own can be healed through with ease. 2200 dps plus another player/players damaging you is a different story. That's what I'm talking about here. There is enough self healing for players to take and extra 2200dps and be conformable with it. It's not a tankiness issue. It's a healing issue.

Iriidius · March 30

Another request to nerf just selfhealing rather than multiple times stronger crosshealstacking.

Iriidius · March 30

2200 health is pretty low and easy to outheal.
By not having a magicka/stamina cost you safe ressoursses that you can use to heal more.
When incoming dmg is so low you can go offensive without getting killed and force your opponent into defense a bit more dmg from b4b is not an issue as you still have hots up and your opponent would have dealt much more dmg when offensive. Going low health yourself is also an advantage when your spammable scales with it.
Most fights in Cyrodiil are onesided anyway so you can either just kill your prey barely noticing the dmg or get ovrwhelmed by predator you cant kill anyway therefore often not even using b4b.

Iriidius · March 30

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

The popularity of this skill alone clearly illustrates how strong solo heals are in PvP. Players use this skill as their main spammable while tanking damage. ~2200 health cost per second and health bars barely move.

Self heals aren't the problem and never have been, it's comp groups with minmax heal stacking.

Self heals are indeed a problem and it's right now. Vengeance has shown us that. Cross heals are a problem too, but that's a different topic.

What did vengeance show us? Solo players not get dominating, most remaining 1vXer skip test without their carry gear without even trying, larger groups win almost every fight but not without some of them dying, 1vXer/tanks/outnumbered groups die without long fight, everyone is dying, even ballgroups.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · March 30

I love players that use Blood for Blood. Free DPS 🤣

dark_hunterxmg · March 30

Iriidius wrote: »

Another request to nerf just selfhealing rather than multiple times stronger crosshealstacking.

Cross heals are a different topic. They should also be addressed.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · March 30

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

The popularity of this skill alone clearly illustrates how strong solo heals are in PvP. Players use this skill as their main spammable while tanking damage. ~2200 health cost per second and health bars barely move.

Self heals aren't the problem and never have been, it's comp groups with minmax heal stacking.

OP mentions blood for blood - a skill which prevents outside healing for 3s after each use. Cross heals aren't affecting this skills use. (not saying they aren't a problem)

Urzigurumash · March 30

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

With the exception of Warden, self heals aren’t a problem for any class. The issue you might be thinking of is how tanky most classes can get while still doing truckloads of damage. In the grand scheme of things, 2200 health is not that much. You can heal through that with ease.

Not seeing the difference. Self-healing leads to tankiness. Way back when part of DK's superior tankiness was having the only HP Scaled Burst Self-Heal in Green Dragonblood (iirc). Players are tanky while dealing truckloads of damage because Offense-scaled Self-Heals are strong. This whole comment only supports the original claim.

xylena_lazarow · March 30

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Self heals are indeed a problem and it's right now. Vengeance has shown us that.

How the hell is anyone self healing too much on Vengeance? If anything, Vengeance has shown us how boring the game gets when you limit individual power too much. As far as live, we need to take the power away from comp group spreadsheets, and put it back on the field where it belongs. If you nerf self heals, you're indirectly buffing comp groups, i.e. the ball groups that made all the zergs quit on live and Cyro die, leading to them trying Vengeance.

Major_Mangle · March 30

B4b is fine, I´m glad they actually made the vamp spammable (both morphs) viable again. Not a huge fan that they removed minor mangle from hemorrhage as a result but it is what it is. Only thing I´d like to change with arterial burst is to make it scale of your highest resource (stam/mag) so it´s a viable spammable for stamina specs as well.

Urzigurumash · March 30

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Self heals are indeed a problem and it's right now. Vengeance has shown us that.

How the hell is anyone self healing too much on Vengeance? If anything, Vengeance has shown us how boring the game gets when you limit individual power too much. As far as live, we need to take the power away from comp group spreadsheets, and put it back on the field where it belongs. If you nerf self heals, you're indirectly buffing comp groups, i.e. the ball groups that made all the zergs quit on live and Cyro die, leading to them trying Vengeance.

Small-scale vs Small-scale Balance and Small-scale vs Comp Group Balance are different subjects tho, different problems, different concerns.

edit: speaking generally, coming from the old world, not about vengeance

edit 2: No CP PvP is superior for Small-scale but GH is the Major League

dark_hunterxmg · March 30

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Self heals are indeed a problem and it's right now. Vengeance has shown us that.

How the hell is anyone self healing too much on Vengeance? If anything, Vengeance has shown us how boring the game gets when you limit individual power too much. As far as live, we need to take the power away from comp group spreadsheets, and put it back on the field where it belongs. If you nerf self heals, you're indirectly buffing comp groups, i.e. the ball groups that made all the zergs quit on live and Cyro die, leading to them trying Vengeance.

To clarify, the healing on Live is too much. Vengeance healing is just fine. What Vengeance healing showed is that players will actually take damage and die when they don't have 50% healing skills on their bars.
I found Vengeance to be a very enjoyable experience. Good players still did well, and new players stood a chance.

TyrantNikolai · March 30

Self heals in general are not the issue it is cross healing. As for blood for blood it is overtuned and should be changed or cost alot more than 2k health.

dark_hunterxmg · March 31

TyrantNikolai wrote: »

Self heals in general are not the issue it is cross healing. As for blood for blood it is overtuned and should be changed or cost alot more than 2k health.

Self heals are an issue when a player can spam this skill and not really be too concerned. I play Werewolf mostly and I could not imagine trying to use a skill that cost health while only having a burst heal available. This is partly why I say self healing is over tuned and the heavy use of Blood for Blood proves it.

TyrantNikolai · March 31

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

TyrantNikolai wrote: »

Self heals in general are not the issue it is cross healing. As for blood for blood it is overtuned and should be changed or cost alot more than 2k health.

Self heals are an issue when a player can spam this skill and not really be too concerned. I play Werewolf mostly and I could not imagine trying to use a skill that cost health while only having a burst heal available. This is partly why I say self healing is over tuned and the heavy use of Blood for Blood proves it.

You contradict yourself now you say your self heals are weak on a werewolf... soo im not sure what you mean and my only guess is your build is not good enough or you stayed in werewolf form too long(unless your using torc) don't forget pale order exists if your wondering why they spam bfb in cyrodiil and if we are talking about bgs then your definitely thinking of cross heals. Self heal requires you to stop attacking and heal your self lol. None of what you say makes any sense.

Stamicka · March 31

Self healing itself in terms of individual skills is fine, the problem is how many self heal skills you can use.

I’ve said it before, but the game wasn’t designed to have all classes have access to both vigor and an on demand burst heal. You can thank hybridization for the current state of self healing.

Before hybridization, Stam builds had Vigor which is by far the best HoT, but they could only burst heal through Rally, which takes time to ramp up in strength.

Mag builds had access to shields or an on demand burst heal like Coagulating Blood, Honor the Dead, and Healthy Offering. Then they also had a second HoT that was weaker than vigor.

So basically you either got the best HoT, but a burst heal that could only be used every 10+ seconds or a burst heal that could always be used, but a weak HoT.

Hybridization means you get Vigor, the burst heal, and the secondary HoT on the same build. The original devs didn’t allow this for a reason and now healing is out of control. So they don’t need to touch the values of the abilities, they need to change the fact that you can slot so many heals at once.

Iriidius · March 31

Stamicka wrote: »

Self healing itself in terms of individual skills is fine, the problem is how many self heal skills you can use.

I’ve said it before, but the game wasn’t designed to have all classes have access to both vigor and an on demand burst heal. You can thank hybridization for the current state of self healing.

Before hybridization, Stam builds had Vigor which is by far the best HoT, but they could only burst heal through Rally, which takes time to ramp up in strength.

Mag builds had access to shields or an on demand burst heal like Coagulating Blood, Honor the Dead, and Healthy Offering. Then they also had a second HoT that was weaker than vigor.

So basically you either got the best HoT, but a burst heal that could only be used every 10+ seconds or a burst heal that could always be used, but a weak HoT.

Hybridization means you get Vigor, the burst heal, and the secondary HoT on the same build. The original devs didn’t allow this for a reason and now healing is out of control. So they don’t need to touch the values of the abilities, they need to change the fact that you can slot so many heals at once.

Mag builds usually used healing staff with regeneration both before hybridization and after hybridization until regeneration got nerfed in infamous update 35 half a year later and many magicka builds continued using healing staff despite regeneration nerf using vigor insteat.
Some classes had their burstheal scale with hp or highest offensive stat even before update 33 hybridization. Healthy offering did heal everyone except yourself even after hybridization for a few updates. Could kill most player that did not kill me rarely having stalemates until update 35 nerfed most damage skills too. Nerfing selfheal but not crossheal to prevent stalemate will lead to having neither stalemates nor decisive duells as even nobody will play solo anymore. Most duells in Cyrodiil not end in stalemate anyway because players call their friends after less than a minute if they cant immediately kill someone.

Iriidius · March 31

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

TyrantNikolai wrote: »

Self heals in general are not the issue it is cross healing. As for blood for blood it is overtuned and should be changed or cost alot more than 2k health.

Self heals are an issue when a player can spam this skill and not really be too concerned. I play Werewolf mostly and I could not imagine trying to use a skill that cost health while only having a burst heal available. This is partly why I say self healing is over tuned and the heavy use of Blood for Blood proves it.

If you play werewolf you are handicapping yourself. It is the worse than any class including necro and so bad that as a former werewolf player I had almost forgotten it even exists until you mentioned it. Only because werewolf has only 1 burstheal(and healing on claws) and fails miserably with it especially since ZoS removed 10k resistance other classes should not be limited to burstheal only either. They should rather give werewolf vigor too and restore 10k resistance to make it viable again.

MincMincMinc · March 31

Uhh you can't be healed by allies when using B4B. If self heals were not viable you wouldn't be able to use the skill.

Many people blame just group heals which doesn't apply in this case, but the real driving issue behind it all is how many group sets there are. Sure they could do something like prevent over time effects from stacking, but half of the issue is that in group comps you essentially have 6+ 5 piece bonuses at all times from other players on you going towards your heals.

Tcholl · March 31

I also believe there is way too many options of hots, burst heals and shields avalilable right now, which can all be stacked. Specially, after the scribing update.

I also agree that gets a lot worse when you have players using comped builds.

dark_hunterxmg · March 31

Stamicka wrote: »

Self healing itself in terms of individual skills is fine, the problem is how many self heal skills you can use.

I’ve said it before, but the game wasn’t designed to have all classes have access to both vigor and an on demand burst heal. You can thank hybridization for the current state of self healing.

Before hybridization, Stam builds had Vigor which is by far the best HoT, but they could only burst heal through Rally, which takes time to ramp up in strength.

Mag builds had access to shields or an on demand burst heal like Coagulating Blood, Honor the Dead, and Healthy Offering. Then they also had a second HoT that was weaker than vigor.

So basically you either got the best HoT, but a burst heal that could only be used every 10+ seconds or a burst heal that could always be used, but a weak HoT.

Hybridization means you get Vigor, the burst heal, and the secondary HoT on the same build. The original devs didn’t allow this for a reason and now healing is out of control. So they don’t need to touch the values of the abilities, they need to change the fact that you can slot so many heals at once.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. No single heal is the culprit. It is the HoT stacking and heal return skills that a single player can combine for excessive amounts of healing to themselves.

dark_hunterxmg · March 31

TyrantNikolai wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

TyrantNikolai wrote: »

Self heals in general are not the issue it is cross healing. As for blood for blood it is overtuned and should be changed or cost alot more than 2k health.

Self heals are an issue when a player can spam this skill and not really be too concerned. I play Werewolf mostly and I could not imagine trying to use a skill that cost health while only having a burst heal available. This is partly why I say self healing is over tuned and the heavy use of Blood for Blood proves it.

You contradict yourself now you say your self heals are weak on a werewolf... soo im not sure what you mean and my only guess is your build is not good enough or you stayed in werewolf form too long(unless your using torc) don't forget pale order exists if your wondering why they spam bfb in cyrodiil and if we are talking about bgs then your definitely thinking of cross heals. Self heal requires you to stop attacking and heal your self lol. None of what you say makes any sense.

There is no contradiction. No single heal is the issue. It's the stacking of healing skills. Having multiple HoTs ticking means you don't have to stop to heal nearly as often.

Iriidius wrote: »

If you play werewolf you are handicapping yourself. It is the worse than any class including necro and so bad that as a former werewolf player I had almost forgotten it even exists until you mentioned it. Only because werewolf has only 1 burstheal(and healing on claws) and fails miserably with it especially since ZoS removed 10k resistance other classes should not be limited to burstheal only either. They should rather give werewolf vigor too and restore 10k resistance to make it viable again.

I am well aware of the limitations of being a Werewolf. I still make it work even with the limitations. It does give me a different perspective on the issue.

Tonturri · March 31

Vigor was fine being extremely strong when only stam builds could use it. Now it's easy for magicka builds to use it and still CC break, and even block and dodge. It's also too easy to be tanky with (among other things) high health and still have great damage, making the B4B health cost negligible. I don't think B4B needs changes, but other stuff does. Finishing up hybridization (or rolling it back to some degree), whichever ZOS prefers, would be great. Heck I can run magicka burst heals on a stamina setup now. What a world we live in.

TyrantNikolai · March 31

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

TyrantNikolai wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

TyrantNikolai wrote: »

Self heals in general are not the issue it is cross healing. As for blood for blood it is overtuned and should be changed or cost alot more than 2k health.

Self heals are an issue when a player can spam this skill and not really be too concerned. I play Werewolf mostly and I could not imagine trying to use a skill that cost health while only having a burst heal available. This is partly why I say self healing is over tuned and the heavy use of Blood for Blood proves it.

You contradict yourself now you say your self heals are weak on a werewolf... soo im not sure what you mean and my only guess is your build is not good enough or you stayed in werewolf form too long(unless your using torc) don't forget pale order exists if your wondering why they spam bfb in cyrodiil and if we are talking about bgs then your definitely thinking of cross heals. Self heal requires you to stop attacking and heal your self lol. None of what you say makes any sense.

There is no contradiction. No single heal is the issue. It's the stacking of healing skills. Having multiple HoTs ticking means you don't have to stop to heal nearly as often.

Iriidius wrote: »

If you play werewolf you are handicapping yourself. It is the worse than any class including necro and so bad that as a former werewolf player I had almost forgotten it even exists until you mentioned it. Only because werewolf has only 1 burstheal(and healing on claws) and fails miserably with it especially since ZoS removed 10k resistance other classes should not be limited to burstheal only either. They should rather give werewolf vigor too and restore 10k resistance to make it viable again.

I am well aware of the limitations of being a Werewolf. I still make it work even with the limitations. It does give me a different perspective on the issue. [/quote

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

TyrantNikolai wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

TyrantNikolai wrote: »

Self heals in general are not the issue it is cross healing. As for blood for blood it is overtuned and should be changed or cost alot more than 2k health.

Self heals are an issue when a player can spam this skill and not really be too concerned. I play Werewolf mostly and I could not imagine trying to use a skill that cost health while only having a burst heal available. This is partly why I say self healing is over tuned and the heavy use of Blood for Blood proves it.

You contradict yourself now you say your self heals are weak on a werewolf... soo im not sure what you mean and my only guess is your build is not good enough or you stayed in werewolf form too long(unless your using torc) don't forget pale order exists if your wondering why they spam bfb in cyrodiil and if we are talking about bgs then your definitely thinking of cross heals. Self heal requires you to stop attacking and heal your self lol. None of what you say makes any sense.

There is no contradiction. No single heal is the issue. It's the stacking of healing skills. Having multiple HoTs ticking means you don't have to stop to heal nearly as often.

Iriidius wrote: »

If you play werewolf you are handicapping yourself. It is the worse than any class including necro and so bad that as a former werewolf player I had almost forgotten it even exists until you mentioned it. Only because werewolf has only 1 burstheal(and healing on claws) and fails miserably with it especially since ZoS removed 10k resistance other classes should not be limited to burstheal only either. They should rather give werewolf vigor too and restore 10k resistance to make it viable again.

I am well aware of the limitations of being a Werewolf. I still make it work even with the limitations. It does give me a different perspective on the issue.

I said the first time cross healing is an issue not self heals that only affect yourself or 1 person. Again people spam blood for blood in cyrodiil because mech accuity + pale order = free blood for blood that has an overtuned damage scale.